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Sean Passanisi
(passanis) - MLife
Adventure Medical Kits on 04/02/2013 19:17:14 MDT Print View

Hello.

Following up on first aid thread from earlier this year (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=72929), does anyone carry Adventure Medical Kits UltraLight / Watertight .5 First-Aid Kit (http://www.rei.com/product/708124/adventure-medical-kits-ultralight-watertight-5-first-aid-kit)?

I'm looking for a lightweight "check the box" solution, but I'm open to piecing my own kit together if that's lighter or more comprehensive than the standard Adventure Medical Kit. Thanks.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Adventure Medical Kits on 04/02/2013 19:38:48 MDT Print View

10.4 ounces seems like a lot of weight for a short trip.

I checked on my first aid kit for a five-day trip, and it is 3.0 ounces.

You have to know what kinds of injuries you are susceptible to and how many trivial injuries you are willing to ignore.

--B.G.--

Michael K
(chinookhead) - F - M
Make your own kit. on 04/02/2013 19:53:33 MDT Print View

Personally, unless you are on a super tight budget or really lazy, I'd put together your own kit. In this way, it will likely be much more versatile and effective. Also, if you put together the kit yourself, you are more likely to know what is really in your kit and have more knowledge on how to use your first aid tools.

I have a "first aid bag" that I carry on all hiking adventures from small day hikes to multi-week backpacking adventures. Into this first aid bag I add or take away ziplok bags with specific types of items in it. These ziplocs are just sitting in my gear closet and I can just grab them easily before a trip. For example, for a long term backpacking trip I add my "blister treatment" ziploc and a ziplocs with "serious meds" like antibiotics and prescription pain killers etc. that I would not take on a short trip. Having everything separated into little baggies also makes things really easy for me to just grab when I need it in emergencies and not have to really think about it or search for it. For example, I have a serious wound bag.

My main "First Aid Bag" is a Sea to Summit Big River dry Bag, which is very durable and waterproof, since I don't want to have to worry about babying it. You could also use a Loksak or a cuben dry-bag etc if you are real worried about the weight. I like it to be something waterproof.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
No Actual Advice on 04/02/2013 23:00:10 MDT Print View

After this week's basketball game, I think I'm putting a little extra rope in my bag for makeshift splints...

Nice to see my thread still helping people months later. An important conversation!

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Adventure Medical Kits on 04/02/2013 23:05:51 MDT Print View

Okay, I'll try to generate a checklist, but please, everyone, feel free to tweak/expand it.

Good first aid knowledge and PRACTICE! - take a course that includes simulated, practical sessions.

aspirin (blood thinning for stroke or MI)
tylenol - pain relief
acetaminophen - pain relief through a different mechanism
Benadryl - for hives, congestions, hay fever, anaphylactic shock, and as a sleep aid.
Imodium - for the squirts (diarrhea)
tiny professional sample of triple-antibiotic cream.
some laxative - if you don't know a dozen natural laxatives you can find on the trail

Know how to use:
sleeping pads as splints.
clothing as dressings, slings, and traction devices
pack frame, branches, and hiking poles as splits, etc.
knife / scissors / razor blade to assist in preparing such field dressings.

Know how to identify and more importantly AVOID environmental exposures (hypothermia, frost bite, heat exhaustion, heat stroke) using the gear you normally carry.
Have appropriate water treatment and use it, if needed.
Hand sanitation scheme used before every meal/snack and after every elimination.
Sun lotion, hat, long-sleeve clothing.

bandaids - 2 to 4
moleskin, molefoam (and if someone has totally untested boots: second skin) and scissors to prep them (e.g. SAK Classic).
Duct tape in a few wraps around your water bottle. Good for sucking chest wounds, securing dressings, splints, etc.
Some people swear by super glue in lieu of stitches. The MD I sleep with says stitches on the trail are for the Rambo-wanna-bes. You shouldn't stitch something up unless it has been irrigated and cleansed in a way we just can't do well in the field. And waiting a few days has no downside once the bleeding has stopped.

Longer trips: anti-fungal cream for athlete's foot, jungle rot, ringworm, etc. Again, a tiny professional sample.

Medicine history / knowledge of the people on the trip. This is often overlooked, but is REALLY helpful with an unconscious victim.

Specific drugs based on the individuals along. No known bee sting, peanut allergies? I'm not bringing the sting kit. But if someone has a chronic or acute condition, I'll stock on the expected drugs as well as some for contingencies.

I would rarely bring ALL of these. But based on trip length, group size, remoteness, and individual issues, I'll consider each one carefully. On a 16-day, 16-person rafting trip of the GCNP (including an obviously gay dude who wouldn't disclose his health status), we brought much more, but the raft floats no matter how much you put in it and we had two MDs along.

I'd rather have a creative, knowledgable first aider with only the non-first-aid items on his/her back, than an untrained idiot with an ambulance full of equipment.

Sean Passanisi
(passanis) - MLife
Re: Re: Adventure Medical Kits on 04/02/2013 23:24:08 MDT Print View

Thanks for the replies. Very impressive list, David. Probably overkill for my shorter trips, but I'll look through and pick out items I could use. The only thing in my current "kit" is a bit of pot, which basically covers items 1 - 7 on your list!

Richard Reno
(scubahhh) - M

Locale: White Mountains, mostly.
Ever seen how a head wound bleeds? on 04/03/2013 05:17:22 MDT Print View

A couple years ago i stumbled across a guy on Mount Osceola who'd landed onhi sbean and looked like he was bleeding out (he didn't). Ever since then v'e carried Quik-Clot. it doens't really matter that it stings like hell; it's not for me!

I also carry a Sam Splint (4 oz.) cuz i saw that basketball game too and don't really thing a compound fracture is a good time to be experiemnting with multi-purpose gear.

Alasdair Fowler
(MessiahKhan) - F

Locale: Newcastle, UK
Adventure Medical Kits on 04/03/2013 06:17:43 MDT Print View

My kit looks something like

Leuko Tape (amazing stuff that sticks to everything, including sweaty feet.
Sewing needle (To drain blisters or pick out splinters).
Superglue (To stick people and things back together)
Alcohol Gel (To clean hands for hygiene and help sterilise wounds or needle)
Anti-histamine cream (For insect bites)
Ibuprofen (For pain relief)
Scissors (To cut clothes to make bandages or to cut nail etc)
Bodyglide (For chafing)

That covers most of the common injuries and ailments. As others have said, it is having the knowledge of what to do and how to use kit that is more important.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Advice this time on 04/03/2013 06:23:14 MDT Print View

As far as I know, Quik-Clot was stopped by the US Military because it was causing Quik-Clots in the heart. Use pressure.

Wound closure strips = temporary stitches for bigger wounds.

The backflusher from your Sawyer Squeeze can be used to irrigate wounds.

Edited by mdilthey on 04/03/2013 06:24:07 MDT.

Charles G.
(Rincon) - M

Locale: Desert Southwest
Tylenol is acetominophen on 04/03/2013 06:37:41 MDT Print View

David, I think you meant ibuprofen for one of the listed meds. Tylenol is a brand name for acetominophen (or paracetamol in the UK). I make the same mistake often and my wife is quite patient in reminding me.

Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
Dermabond on 04/03/2013 08:24:21 MDT Print View

Has anyone used Dermabond and a wound sealer and closer? I have no experience with it.

DW

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Quick clot on 04/03/2013 09:00:14 MDT Print View

Max, I can't speak for the entire military but I just received some trauma training from an 18D where we used similar products. Quick clot was abandoned because it causes additional necrosis. Supposedly combat gauze and a couple other products do not have this problem and is still being used by the military and law enforcement. With the training I've received, I feel comfortable packing a wound with normal gauze.

Somewhat funny story relating to superglue. I use it in lieu of tincture of benzoin to give problematic blisters a hot shot. I had to use my FAK yesterday for something minor and was welcomed by a massive glob of band aids, alcohol pads, etc thanks to a ruptured tube of superglue.

Lesson learned! I'll just stick (pun intended) to the benzoin from now on.

I can't speak for Dave but my guess is that he meant ibuprofen instead of mentioning acetaminophen twice. There is a reason the military calls 800mg ibu tablets "Ranger Candy." Works great for me to keep me moving.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
aspirin on 04/03/2013 09:05:16 MDT Print View

if you have a clot type stroke which is more ocommon, you want to use aspirin

if you have a bleeding type stroke, you want to avoid aspirin

it's difficult to know which you have

if you have a heart attack, you want to take an aspirin

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: aspirin on 04/03/2013 11:44:23 MDT Print View

"if you have a heart attack, you want to take an aspirin"

Yes, although a nitroglycerin tablet would be quicker.

--B.G.--

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: aspirin on 04/03/2013 16:35:50 MDT Print View

> if you have a heart attack, you want to take an aspirin

UNLESS you happen to be allergic to aspirin. If you are, then you may well die from the aspirin rather than the heart attack.

Cheers

jason quick
(jase)

Locale: A tent in my backyard - Melbourne
Re: Re: aspirin on 04/03/2013 16:38:03 MDT Print View

"if you have a heart attack, you want to take an aspirin"

"Yes, although a nitroglycerin tablet would be quicker."

It depends on the pathophysiology.

An aspirin won't vasodilate, it will only stop, or slow the aggregation process if there is clot development during unstable angina. If merely angina, aspirin won't really help at all...but a GTN will make a massive difference.

Edited by jase on 04/03/2013 16:39:07 MDT.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: aspirin on 04/03/2013 16:58:11 MDT Print View

Jason, in this country it is quite common for any patient who has ever had significant heart symptoms to be prescribed nitroglycerine pills. If symptoms of a heart attack appear, the patient is supposed to pop one pill and wait five minutes. If there is no relief, then the second pill is popped. If there is no relief within an additional five minutes, then it is probably a real heart attack. However, the NO liberated by the pills tends to massively dialate all of the large-bore arteries, especially the cardiac arteries. I've heard that those can be quite important.

--B.G.--

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Bare essentials on 04/03/2013 17:00:21 MDT Print View

Super glue, IB 1000's, claritin, and Norco- is really all I usually bring. I guess I should bring more? But I dont solo that often and we usually have about four first aid kits in the group that never get touched except for blisters which I dont get in my current salomons.

Brandon =Þ
(Beeen) - MLife

Locale: California
Superglue on 04/03/2013 17:11:26 MDT Print View

"Somewhat funny story relating to superglue. I use it in lieu of tincture of benzoin to give problematic blisters a hot shot. I had to use my FAK yesterday for something minor and was welcomed by a massive glob of band aids, alcohol pads, etc thanks to a ruptured tube of superglue."

I had used Super Glue since I was a teenager for an assortment of injuries, so it of course went into my backpacking kit. Didn't have any real call to use it on the trail, mainly because I prefered the forgiveness of the blue stuff that came from a tiny vile of liquid bandage (by Band-Aid). I ran out of it because they stopped selling it, so I went to the Super Glue. Didn't even contemplate that once opened, my elevation changes while going over mountains would work almost like a pump and displace most the glue into the rest of my first aid kid.

Ditto on "lesson learned!", and probably for the best, because the backcountry is a horrible place to accidentally squeeze a bunch of Super Glue onto your hands.

Nancy Twilley
(goodcaver2)

Locale: STL
prejudice much? on 04/03/2013 20:07:09 MDT Print View

Whoa, hang on, "including an obviously gay dude who wouldn't disclose his health status"??????????

Seriously? Check all those prejudices, David Thomas. I think the implication here is that you 1) assumed you knew the man was gay and 2) assumed that because he was gay he either had AIDS or had a high chance of having it.

Why does this man have any obligation to disclose his sexuality to you? Would you give the time of day to someone who assumed that you were diseased just because you looked or seemed gay to them?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: prejudice much? on 04/03/2013 20:54:02 MDT Print View

Nancy,

From David's past posts (especially in Chaff) maybe he didn't word this right... sometimes we rush when typing a post. I have seen many passionate posts by him defending many groups to include gays. But his sentence does seem objectionable taken out of context and not knowing him (well as many of us only know him via BPL).

There are diseases that can be passed by contact with body fluids. Attending to a bleeding cut could put those providing aid at risk. Another reason to hike solo :)

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
_ on 04/03/2013 21:05:56 MDT Print View

I've been trained by 18D's too. Plus the MD's that train the 18D's.

"...Quik-Clot was stopped by the US Military because it was causing Quik-Clots in the heart."

Careful folks, if you don't really know what you're talking about please don't post about medical things. It was WoundStat that was dropped due to some emboli cropping up. Strictly speaking Quik Clot wasn't dropped for causing tissue necrosis. The burns issue really wasn't that bad in light of the wounds being treated. Form factor and dovetailing with existing training were the big wins for Combat Gauze.

Most UL hikers are right to discount the risk of serious bleeds. But if you're hunting or working a lot with an axe then serious bleeds are a nontrivial risk. Direct pressure and proper wound packing go a long way. But I throw in a roll of Combat Gauze to hedge my bets a little more. The cost in weight and bulk is negligible and it really can make a difference.

I just can't bring myself to bring a CAT for the trail, although I would if I was a hunter. However I do have an extra large bandanna and the knowledge (backed with practice) to fashion a proper tourniquet from it.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: prejudice much? on 04/03/2013 21:15:43 MDT Print View

"From David's past posts (especially in Chaff) maybe he didn't word this right... sometimes we rush when typing a post."

+1. I've found David to be one of the most open-minded, level headed people on this forum. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
Re: prejudice much? on 04/03/2013 21:18:07 MDT Print View

>"prejudice much?"

Political correctness much?

Nancy Twilley
(goodcaver2)

Locale: STL
sounds fishy to me on 04/03/2013 21:35:07 MDT Print View

I know he's a regular poster here on the forums, but from the post his intent seems fairly clear to me. If he meant something else, he can feel free to say so.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Tylenol is acetominophen on 04/03/2013 21:41:42 MDT Print View

Charles: quite right. I went to spell check on google, hopped back to BPL, and screwed up.

Advil AND Tylenol

Or, if your prefer:

Ibuprofen AND acetaminophen.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Tylenol is acetominophen on 04/03/2013 21:55:56 MDT Print View

Between Ibuprofen and Acetaminophen, isn't one of them damaging to some people's livers or something? Maybe if you take just a little more than recommended dose?

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: sounds fishy to me on 04/03/2013 22:04:34 MDT Print View

Nancy: my bad if I was unclear. (1) it is the Internet and no one not on the R2R2R Grand Canyon trip has ever seen me smile and (2) I've been on 22 flights for business and volunteer reasons in the last two weeks so, like now, I post from an iPhone at 33,000 feet and can't reread and edit my whole post on one screen. But, again, my bad.

About me: straight guy. Married. Two kids. Nerd. Politically very liberal in a very conservative town. Not afraid, though, to start a PFLAG chapter locally, advocate for non-discrimination policies before the school board (unsuccessful) and (successfully) pass non-discrimination policies at the fourth largest employer within 150 miles (I'm on the BOD). I'm such a fricking ally,
I perhaps am clueless to inaccurate perceptions I can create. And I say true stuff like "I've dated more lesbians (unknowingly) than most out women do in a decade." that people who don't know me take the wrong way.

About that situation: my wife (an MD) and my SIL (another MD) took the unpaid and, I thought, helpful task of gathering a ton of medical supplies and information prior to a private Colorado River raft trip through GCNP. They sent out forms about medical history because that's what docs do. If you're unconscious, they'd still like to provide appropriate care and not, you know, kill you due to a drug allergy or unknown, underlying medical condition.

Everyone seemed to take it that way and emailed forms to the docs and I NEVER SAW THEM. I never do. My wife and I have these annoying-to-me conversations where she vents about something that went wrong at the hospital while using only non-gendered pronouns and non-age-specific terms.

But I knew one guy (out of 16 people) hadn't returned the form. He was the manscaped guy. Who'd most recently been to the GCNP at age 30 WITH HIS MOTHER. And he showed up with another twink guy. And in a crowd of lesbian oarmen (to use an oxymoronic phrase) and liberal straights, he was the only one to not be out (be out, I include LGBTQXYZ, whatever). So maybe I was inaccurately stereotyping him or maybe after decades in SF/Berkeley and living in Northampton, I have a bit of gaydar. That assessment is left for the reader. Of course his orientation has no bearing on medical treatment. But his serum status could very well have a lot of bearing on his health and need for health care. And my strong sense is that a closeted guy is less likely to disclose his serum status than someone who is more self-accepting.

To be continued . . .

Okay, I'm back at ground level. A mile high, but at ground level at another airport with contaminated groundwater (DEN).

My point was that telling your companions about your health issues can help YOU. If there'd been a 300-pound women who refused sweets, was constantly thristy, pricking her finger many times a day and hadn't disclosed anything, I'd infer she likely had poorly controlled diabetes and I'd wonder WTF she wouldn't let the people most able to help in an emergency help her more. But there wasn't that person along on any trip I've been on. The person who may well have been the sickest person hadn't imparted any info to anyone. Mostly, that's to his deteriment. But while both docs along had trained for years in SF and are totally up on universal precautions, sure, anyone would be even more careful if they know someone is pos.

Edited by DavidinKenai on 04/04/2013 01:20:03 MDT.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Easy on 04/03/2013 22:11:23 MDT Print View

Medicine/first aid isn't always an exact science but more of a collection theories and assumptions. Ask five different physicians and you'll likely hear five slightly different opinions. I have many thousands of hours invested into EMS, WFR, and advanced first aid training. If I give advice in reference to first aid, it's because I have experience or at the very least, have received relevant training in that area. You are entitled to have a difference of opinion but I'm willing to take an 18D with three combat tours plus the experiences of dozens of combat vets at their word. These same people recommend combat guaze. To be honest, we didn't carry it when I was deployed in the '90s nor did any of the ambulance companies I worked for ever carry it so I haven't personally used it. I carry it at work now but fortunately haven't had a need to use it.

I've been doing this long enough to see some dramatic changes in medical protocols and conflicting guidelines from medical authorities so nothing is ever set in stone when it comes to this topic.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/03/2013 22:25:43 MDT.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: prejudice much? No. Maybe overly at ease about it, though. on 04/04/2013 01:40:39 MDT Print View

Nancy,

On your specific points:

1) assumed you knew the man was gay

Yeah, I did. Shaved chest - like his traveling partner, road trips with Mom, no mention of any partner/dating on a LONG trip on which everyone else was open about their varied lives. Mannerisms. Affect. There's nothing wrong with that - nothing at all - and I never said there was.

2) assumed that because he was gay he either had AIDS or had a high chance of having it.

Partly true. Gay men, on this planet, in the last 35 years, DO have a higher chance of being HIV+. I don't assume that so much as think I know that. From, well, actual data. All those peer-reviewed medical journals laying around the house - NEJ, JAMA - rags that like.

Much more so, being the only one to not convey medical info to the physicians on the trip really stood out.

You might want to wikipedia AIDS versus HIV+. The later can, untreated, lead to the former, but there's a big difference between them and while my snarky remark was only about someone who didn't seem to be willing to decrease his risks on the trip, everything I've written has been about the increased probability that he was poz. Nothing I saw, inferred, or wrote suggested he had AIDS.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
Re: Easy on 04/04/2013 07:40:15 MDT Print View

Ian, what you initially posted was error, not opinion. If an 18d told you that QuikClot was nailed for causing "quick clots in the heart" then he is wrong. He almost certainly just mis-spoke (meaning to say WoundStat).

I'm posting from my phone so it's a pain to paste in links but Google quik clot emboli to find the DoD directive where quik clot was superseded by combat gauze. Woundstat was shown to cause emboli, not quik clot, but in a bit of overkill they dropped all granular hemostatics.

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
Combat Gauze on 04/04/2013 08:03:29 MDT Print View

1. I like the Adventure Medical kits, and use one as my base kit for modification/customizing. I like the light container, some of the gear it comes with and the price when one gets it on clearance from Sierra Trading. Mine sits inside the bottom section of a quart milk container. I don't have combat gauze in there, or any styptic, but I think this might be a great idea. "Be Prepared" always winds up "Being Heavy", ha ha!

2. Who's got a hot tip on the smart/economical way to get combat gauze? I see it online, but have no frame of reference for price.

3. Acetaminophen ("tylenol") is the med that can badly damage the liver if taken in excess dose or in the presence of alcohol in the blood. This is the real deal, but it's also excellent for basic pain and, particularly, headaches. Since headaches can be strong and common at altitude, acetaminophen is definitely an arrow in my first aid quiver. Key detail when dealing with youth: get permission and learn up on dosing by weight.

4. Good job, David. Both on the excellent listing post and in dealing with the hysterical response to one of your comments.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Read again James on 04/04/2013 08:39:53 MDT Print View

I never said that Quick Clot caused emboli. Re read my first response.

Edit the comment you are referring to is from Max.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/04/2013 08:45:45 MDT.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
Re: Read again James on 04/04/2013 08:52:20 MDT Print View

You are right, that was Max's statement. Your post entitled "easy" didn't quote anyone and I thought you were responding to me. In which case my comment applies doubly to Max's statement.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
No problem on 04/04/2013 09:02:28 MDT Print View

You made reference to the emboli and necrosis so I assumed you were addressing both of us. Like I've said, I've seen medical protocol which was gospel on a Monday blown out of the water on Tuesday (eg reducing O2 treatment for COPD re hypoxic drive concerns) so I try to stay current. Unfortunately these discoveries aren't received or adopted by all health care professionals simultaneously for a multitude of reasons and trying to sift through conflicting guidelines can be frustrating. I believe we're more or less on the same sheet of music as far as this topic goes.

Nancy Twilley
(goodcaver2)

Locale: STL
sigh on 04/04/2013 09:04:11 MDT Print View

Wikipedia it, eh? Let's try to leave the snark aside for a minute -- I'm well aware of how HIV leads to AIDS and of the history and prevalance of the disease in this country and around the world, among gay men as well as other social groups. If you want to get into a contest about who's got the better education on the subject we can do that, but I don't think that's going to solve the problem here.

It seems like you do want to be an ally to the gay community -- if you really want to do that, I maintain that you really need to check your privilege / prejudice here. As a gay person, I read the statements you're making and I don't see them as statements my allies make. You might start by watching how you throw around terms like "twink" -- while this is widely used within the community, from straight people it's suspect. Just like making assumptions based on mannerisms or stereotypes like being close with one's mother -- nothing wrong with thinking hey, that guy's probably gay, but when you start attaching other stereotypes to that (hey, that guy might be HIV+, hey, that guy probably has mommy issues), you're working counterproductive to your goal.

If everyone was required to turn in a medical form and one person didn't turn it in, I can see why that's a problem. In that case, you should have said "(including ONE PERSON who wouldn't disclose his health status). The fact that he was gay did not necessarily mean he was HIV+, and it's not helpful (if you actually care about connecting to gay people or helping the gay community) to automatically assume that he was. You know as well as I do that ANYONE in this country can be HIV+ -- treating an individual differently because he belongs to a certain social demographic is prejudice.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
BSI never a bad idea on 04/04/2013 09:23:58 MDT Print View

Wearing gloves, eye protection, etc when dealing with body fluids is obviously never a bad idea regardless of who the patient is.

I'm in a similar situation to David in that I'm comfortable around my LGBT friends and we're not afraid to have these conversations. I personally find this to be symptomatic of a society which is evolving away form stupid prejudices against homosexuals. Intelligent and polite conversation should always be encouraged.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Combat Gauze on 04/04/2013 12:35:27 MDT Print View

"3. Acetaminophen ("tylenol") is the med that can badly damage the liver if taken in excess dose "

Also kidneys.

A friend of mine had to undergo kidney dialysis after too much Tylenol.

--B.G.--

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Acetaminophen on 04/04/2013 14:26:45 MDT Print View

After donating blood one time, it came back with a poor result on a liver function test. I wasn't taking a ton of Tylenol, and it was all within the OTC limits, but I was taking a lot do to the aches and pains of a 40-something building a house, plumbing, etc. It was a helpful wake up call to dial it back.

I was struck, 17 years ago, working in a professional (engineers + geologists) office, how no one else knew you can kill yourself (or end up on dialysis) by ODing on Tynelol. A co-worker's daughter had OD'ed in a cry-for-help move, and she and her parents were clueless about how serious it could have be until they were in teh ER. There's this assumption that OTC meds can be popped like candy. Actually, if you stay within the recommended dosages and durations, you'll minimize your risk. But some drugs have a surprisingly small ratio between the theraputic and toxic doses. And alcohol use, advanced age, or a different metabolism, and that ratio could fall below 1.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Combat Gauze on the cheap on 04/04/2013 14:49:38 MDT Print View

>"2. Who's got a hot tip on the smart/economical way to get combat gauze? I see it online, but have no frame of reference for price."

$100 per dressing? $200? Maybe more. Something in that ballpark. It will be a long time before you see it in Walgrens next to the Ace wraps and finger splints.

This probably won't work for you, but my wife, a month before that fateful GCNP raft trip (when I was apparently the mortal enemy of all gay people everywhere) asked for a professional sample. The company sent some out along with a video where some pig pigs bleed like, you guessed it!, "stuck pigs" and other had vastly less blood loss. Maybe they calculated the extent of the wound very carefully, but they had some impressive comparision numbers for treating massive blood loss traditionally and with their clayey bandaid. It was something like 10% survival without and 90% survival with their wonder bandaids. I'll look around for it. We don't have any big, remote trips planned for awhile and she could always do the same thing again. She's also more particular about expiration dates than I am. It was clay 10 million years ago, it was clay last year, I'm pretty sure it will be clay in a decade. I'll check and maybe I can send you those sample pack.

It was striking to me that it is basically a dressing impregnated with bentonite clay. Wyoming has cubic miles of the stuff and I use fancy versions (powders and different-sized pellets) when constructing air- and water-wells. I literally have some under my fingernails right now, sitting in this DEN airport lounge because I was just pilot testing some treatment systems at a fuel-spill site this morning. I have NO idea if blood clotting is the same in salmon (the species I most often dispatch), but I'm tempted to slap some bentonite clay on a Johnston&Johnston gauze pad the next time a 4-H'er has a few pigs to slaughter. I suspect the incredibly high adsorptive capacity, and high surface energy of those very tiny clay particles would work just as a well as the FDA-approved vendor's version.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: sigh on 04/04/2013 15:24:30 MDT Print View

>"I'm well aware of how HIV leads to AIDS. . . "

Then use the right term. If someone who reads things in context and considers who's saying what had made such a stupid little mix-up like confounding HIV for AIDS, I'd let it pass. But you're the one policing volcabulary and projecting all sorts of beliefs and ideas onto others.

>"treating an individual differently because he belongs to a certain social demographic is prejudice." Of course it is. But does it help or hurt? If I chase after a Celt with SPF50 lotion more quickly than I do for a southern Euporean, I'm making all sorts of assumptions. Similary, I attach no stigma to the HIV+ person, but (if I was the medical provider) would want to be able to respond with appropriate care and some medical conditions make a big difference in patient care.

"twink", like "bear" is, in my circles, simply descriptive. Not pegorative. If I'm in a dialouge with Dan Savage, he's pulling all sorts of terms (and their meanings) from the dominant culture. As I am with terms from different subcultures including many to which I don't belong. I know there are highly dramatic and extended debates about whether a non-member of a (gay, black, kink, vor, etc) community should use vocab from that community. The n-word (youtube Tim Minchin on that) for blacks and the d-word for lesbians are, in my opinion, still too dodgy to use more widely. But on a daily basis, I usurp terms from Spanish (Sierra) Hispanic (burrito), French (ala mode), Black (rock&roll), gay, geek, Star Trek, and academic cultures. And I'm not going to stop. To each their own.

Much of this reminds of "janitors" becoming "custodians" 40 years ago. I never saw the problem as they were doing important, neccessary work and I didn't look down on them. But for people who saw the janitors as "the lowly guys who hauls the trash", the new terms quickly had all the same negative connotations.

Reread what I wrote in the context of "an ally who doesn't police his vocabulary and was giving an extreme example of not disclosing health issues to make a point." and maybe it wouldn't seem so evil.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
CG on 04/04/2013 15:47:23 MDT Print View

Combat gauze runs about $35 a roll though some will gouge those who don't shop around. That's for the standard roll, the XL roll is a lot more. There are cheaper alternatives to CG now (i.e. Celox gauze) that have good performance data backing them. The most recent studies actually call for looking at these newer products instead of CG.

The kaolin in CG becomes less effective once it absorbs moisture, so the risk with old CG is that the packaging has been compromised and let air/moisture in.

Proper wound packing technique is king. You can do a lot with plain gauze or improvised materials. Look on YouTube for good tutorials from TacMed Solutions.

Brandon =Þ
(Beeen) - MLife

Locale: California
Re: Re: sigh on 04/04/2013 16:28:34 MDT Print View

'"twink", like "bear" is, in my circles, simply descriptive. Not pejorative.'

I've personally given up trying to keep apprised of what naming conventions evolve to become offensive to various members of a particular conceptualized group. So, now when I'm unsure I just refer to them as "a--holes", a category I'm proud to count myself a member of.

Nancy Twilley
(goodcaver2)

Locale: STL
double sigh. on 04/04/2013 16:50:26 MDT Print View

If you want to be an ally, listen to the people you want to ally yourself with.

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
venture Medical Kits" on 04/04/2013 16:51:50 MDT Print View

Concerning slang terms offensive to groups: these days, a lot of people think that it's kitsch and cool to "bring back" terms and throw them around as a sort of challenge, really. The implication is that the terms have been de-fanged; or again, in the right hands, re-worked to become provocative in the opposite way that they once were. Case in point: Bitch Magazine; very feminist of course. To paraphrase Marx, the idea seems to be that the first time around derogatory slang is hateful and offensive; the second time, kitsch and/or empowering. As for me, I cringe just typing the B word.

I think that a better strategy would be to leave the hateful slang behind entirely and move on. I certainly am not cool enough or young enough to get away with any of it.

This is all just general commentary and not intended for anybody. Like half my posts.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Ehh... on 04/04/2013 16:52:08 MDT Print View

David,

As much as I believe your actions towards the gay community are in line with the way society is supposed to be acting, the way you've portrayed yourself in this thread gives Nancy a lot of credence. Your reference to his sexual preference was suspect, this was furthered by your explanation, and whatever the "statistics" say, it's not appropriate to make assumptions about individuals based on sexual preferences, ever. Assumptions underlie prejudice often enough that an ally like you doesn't want to support the trend.

I think the best thing to do is not to challenge Nancy. She's right. If I were in your shoes, I'd apologize for the misunderstanding, and everyone's on the same page; a lot more effective than sarcastically calling yourself an enemy of gay rights.

It's an era where political correctness is overblown, but in this particular situation, the connection between medical information, AIDS, and homosexuality is not fair and not appropriate. In my opinion; you can take it for what it is. Just observations!

Nancy, good on you for keeping your voice loud. It's commendable and I applaud it. I'm gonna give Dave the benefit of the doubt here and say I believe he meant no harm; his past posts never indicate anything remotely like prejudice; contrary, I think he's more open-minded than everyone else on the forum.

Edited by mdilthey on 04/04/2013 16:55:49 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Adventure Medical Kits on 04/04/2013 17:08:10 MDT Print View

Nancy, a name and a description.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Ehh... on 04/04/2013 17:23:57 MDT Print View

False Max! False!

It was scientifically proven that Fred Abernathy is 2% more open minded than David.

OP,

Nothing wrong with a zip lock FAK but I have to admit that I really like Adventure Med's kits for the bags. +whatever on adding triple antibiotic, ibuprofen, immodium, and an antihistamine. I bought one of these kits for my parents and felt it was of good quality.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Combat Gauze on the cheap on 04/04/2013 17:30:57 MDT Print View

Does Combat Gauze effect the taste of the pork meat from the pig after the demonstration is finished?

--B.G.--

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Assumptions... on 04/04/2013 17:34:41 MDT Print View

We ALL make them all the time. When you first meet someone you make all kinds of assumptions as to what they are like. We do this because we don't have much to go on. When the assumptions we are making are important, such as attempting to determine why the only person of a group of 16 refused to provide medical information, especially when we might be involved in providing medical treatment, most of us would use whatever information we had. Since assuming the person in question might he HIV+ doesn't hurt anyone and may in fact help, it is a "good" assumption to make. If "you" are offended that someone would make that assumption in that situation then I suggest that "you" are just a little to sensitive.

I worked with someone I believed to be homosexual, but they never said in the over 20 years I knew them. I assumed they were. It had no effect on any of my interactions with them. I guess I am prejudiced also... At least they didn't seem to mind.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Acetaminophen on 04/04/2013 18:30:15 MDT Print View

I've heard that before

It seems like Acetaminophen shouldn't be used

And Aspirin has problems except when you have a heart attack or maybe a "baby aspirin" every day or two

So, Ibuprofen would be better?

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
"Adventure Medical Kits" on 04/04/2013 18:42:54 MDT Print View

Last year I "discovered" that Acetaminophen seemed to work better for arthritic pain in my knee than Ibuprofen. Now I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth it.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: sigh on 04/04/2013 18:52:18 MDT Print View

Oh just because someone is from a higher lattitude makes them more prone to sunburn?!? Huh Dave?

I have no time for your racist epithets.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
What just happened? on 04/04/2013 19:25:18 MDT Print View

This thread just turned into a Portlandia skit.

I'm offended!

Wha... what?

The rules of PC code section 854 subsection (a)(iii) clearly states that "at no time shall you say anything which may be offensive to anyone, anywhere, at anytime no matter how unreasonable the victim may be"

How the heck am I supposed to comply with that?!?

First we're going to enroll you into sensitivity training. The brown shirts.... I mean... PC counselors will supervise you to ensure that anything you say or do from this day forward will be as inoffensive as vanilla ice cream.

But I just wanted to buy a first aid....

Shush! You can't call it "first aid" anymore!

Why the heck not?

Because your "first" priority is to ensure that nothing you say or do is offensive.

So if someone's bleeding.....?

You stop and assess the situation. You must assume without assuming what the person's ethnicity, religion, sex, sexual orientation, and shoe size is and avoid any topic which may run contrary to their beliefs. Then you may only address them as "person of injury."

Then I can stop the bleeding?

Whoa slow down there psycho! You then need to conduct an "Offense Threat Assessment."

To be continued...

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
OP on 04/04/2013 19:27:04 MDT Print View

Sean,

I hope this has been helpful.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
BPL Thread Drift Gold (and kick a$$ dumplings). on 04/04/2013 19:41:06 MDT Print View

While we're on the topic, I went to the renowned Din Tai Fung dumpling house for my first time today. The sesame buns were amazing, as was the wonton soup. Service was excellent. Fortunately, my wife and I got there early enough to avoid a 2 hour wait.
Highly recommended. A worthwhile cause, but it might take me a while to sample the whole menu.

Surfed the Channel Islands yesterday. Real Good Stuff. Will surf again tomorrow though I fear conditions will be blown out. Large enough swell but the onshore wind might be a bit high.

Heading to the Salton Sea on Saturday with my wife. I'm thinking I'll stop for a vanilla date shake at Hadley's. It's been years since I've had one. Can't really remember if I liked it or not.

So who watches Game of Thrones?

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: BPL Thread Drift Gold (and kick a$$ dumplings). on 04/04/2013 19:43:52 MDT Print View

Game of Thrones makes me feel gay.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
_ on 04/04/2013 19:51:02 MDT Print View

>But I just wanted to buy a first aid....
>Shush! You can't call it "first aid" anymore!
>Why the heck not?
>Because your "first" priority is to ensure that nothing you say or do is offensive.

LOLZ, you da man Ian! ;) Imagine the revised NREMT skillsheets...

This thread reminds me of why I enjoyed the comedy of Carlos Mencia so much. He called out every group (his included) and made fun of their foibles, everyone laughed with everyone else, and he helped us realize that we're all human and we all have our weak spots. Too bad the PC BrownShirts would crucify him if they could. All in the name of tolerance. They'll make ya tolerant 'til ya die.

Of course its not tolerance they want, it's acceptance and obedience. But that's a post for another day, when someone asks "hey does anyone here like cuben fiber?".

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
BPL Thread Drift Gold (and kick a$$ dumplings). on 04/04/2013 19:51:08 MDT Print View

1

Apparently in the days of yore there was no shortage of waxed, sculpted, or mascara wearing hawt men.

Edited by xnomanx on 04/04/2013 19:54:51 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: BPL Thread Drift Gold (and kick a$$ dumplings). on 04/04/2013 19:51:59 MDT Print View

I was looking for some Chaff. Found it!

My straight niece was the first women to ever win the Transvestite of the Year at the World Famous Tranny Shack in San Francisco(where else?). We are proud of her.

As she says about her husband. "It's like he's gay. But he loves me."

She'll have a double scotch. He want's something chocolaty.

Hey Craig. Did you know the Salton Sea use to get more tourists per year than the Grand Canyon?

I made up my own medical kit. Check those expiration dates on those sets you people.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
oh yeah... on 04/04/2013 19:53:41 MDT Print View

Oh, almost forgot:

1) Perhaps the best thing about Adventure Medical Kits products are the kit containers and

2) I loved David Thomas' posts in this thread.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: What just happened? on 04/04/2013 19:56:00 MDT Print View

"...as inoffensive as vanilla ice cream"

But butterfat has been considered offensive by the Jenny Craig Alliance for a long time now.

--B.G.--

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: BPL Thread Drift Gold (and kick a$$ dumplings). on 04/04/2013 20:55:58 MDT Print View

This has really turned into a rather queer thread, don't you think?

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Boldly Go on 04/04/2013 21:20:50 MDT Print View

Well, when there's a 6 page thread on replacing an Adventure Medical Kit from less than two months ago, a new thread can only go so far...

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: BPL Thread Drift Gold (and kick a$$ dumplings). on 04/04/2013 21:27:41 MDT Print View

As a medical professional, we ABSOLUTELY make assumptions about your health status by your appearance. diagnoses are made by identifying clinical patterns: female, fat and forty? High risk for gallstones. If you are fat I am going to assume you have diabetes even if you say you don't (unless you've had blood work in the past month). If you are a construction worker I will assume you have bad discs in your back. I could go on and on and on and on...

We are discussing medical stuff, David is a medical spouse, I have NO doubt he's lumping the appearance and behavior of an individual into a pattern of a possible clinical presentation. It's what medical professionals do...

He made no judgements about the guy being (possibly) gay...just that his appearance and behavior puts him in a category that really is at a higher risk for developing HIV. Just as a highly tattooed person is at higher risk for having hepatitis C, a fat person has a higher risk of heart disease and diabetes, etc.

Seems like you're being a bit overly sensitive.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
BPL Thread Drift Gold (and kick a$$ dumplings). on 04/04/2013 21:44:59 MDT Print View

Looks like a duck, acts like a duck...

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: BPL Thread Drift Gold (and kick a$$ dumplings). on 04/04/2013 21:55:12 MDT Print View

I'm having a hard time figuring out who's facetious and who's serious

I guess it's not important

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Let's just stop right there. on 04/04/2013 22:22:00 MDT Print View

Sorry, that's bull.

First off, being gay does NOT equate sexually transmitted diseases. Maybe if said individual was a prostitute or an adult film star, since those have track records of individuals contracting the disease, but simply deciding on loving the same sex is not enough to say "He has an STD." An individual's right to privacy doesn't equate "He has an STD" either.

We can beat around the bush, but at the end of the day, ASSUMING HE HAS AN STD IS DISCRIMINATION.

I don't caps often, but when I caps, it's important.

Let's check prejudice at the door and let this quiet down as a misunderstanding, or less-than-optimal wording. Everyone makes a mistake once in a while, I throw around a slang word once in a while and it's not the end of the world.

What we should NOT do is start rationalizing it.



Also, David knows more than most about the medical profession but I hardly think that makes gut-reaction-diagnosis his purview. And there's a big difference between obesity-related illness and a gay individual's sexual health; One is based on observable fact and one is based on social contract.

/end rant

Edited by mdilthey on 04/04/2013 22:23:18 MDT.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
More Thoughts... Because I care deeply about this. on 04/04/2013 22:29:22 MDT Print View

And one more thing,

There are five thousand opportunities when being younger than the average BPL user is an opportunity for me to learn from the wise. This conversation feels like an opportunity for the wise to consider learning from me, since my background might be a lot more unbiased than a lot of people's (by nature of decades of accepted discrimination that I blissfully avoided).

2013 is not 1980- being gay is no longer some fringe sexual deviance (if it ever was). Most homosexual individuals in today's world are smart about protection, smart about STD's, and just as capable of taking care of their health as any straight couple.


The idea that STD's and homosexuality are linked is archaic.

Edited by mdilthey on 04/04/2013 22:38:32 MDT.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: More Thoughts... Because I care deeply about this. on 04/04/2013 22:55:57 MDT Print View

According to the CDC stats Male to Male sexual contact accounted for 30,000+ infections during 2011

...about 5 times all the others combined.

Archaic it is not.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#hivest

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
The truth? You can't handle the truth. on 04/04/2013 23:00:43 MDT Print View

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm

This has been taken so far out into left field that there's no reason to stop now. Health care professionals and anyone who's in a position to render first aid should always assume that their patient, regardless of an affinity for the Pet Shop Boys or not, have a communicable disease.

The scenario David explained several pages ago (coincidently the last coherent thought on this thread) was about a concerned physician and an uncooperative rafter.... raftee... whatever. Patients are notoriously lousy advocates for their own health care. I can't tell you how many times I would ask my patient very specific questions about their health where they would withhold critical information from me. You apparently don't understand this and that is fine because the bottom line is....

Son, we live in a world with disease, and those diseases have to be treated by healthcare professionals and medicine. Who's going to do it? You five finger vibrams guy!

Crap. Now I need to make a run to Redbox.

Darn Jeff's 11 and darn my slow typing thumbs.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/04/2013 23:12:29 MDT.

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
*reaches for popcorn* on 04/04/2013 23:19:08 MDT Print View

This is the best show I've seen in weeks! Keep up the good work.

My $0.02, An openly gay friend of mine disclosed his previously secret HIV pos status to me, privately, before a group of us went on a day hike on Mt. Laguna in SoCal. He was worried he might get bit by a snake or attacked by a mountain lion, and I'd be exposed while rendering first-aid. I told him something along the lines of, "We're only five miles from the cars, and the ranger station is right over that hill. There's no first-aid when a mountain lion rips your head off. And besides, I just assume all you faggots have AIDS anyway." We're still friends.

Brandon Guy
(brucky) - F

Locale: Central Cal
Re: The truth? You can't handle the truth. on 04/04/2013 23:43:43 MDT Print View

From that CDC Site

In HIV testing--"19% of MSM tested in 2008 were HIV-positive" MSM = Men who have sex with men
"Of MSM who tested positive for HIV in 2008, 44% did not know they were infected."

Those statistics would lead me to take certain precautions before treating a bleeding gay man.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Adventure Medical Kits on 04/05/2013 00:02:32 MDT Print View

I'm sorry, but those CDC statistics don't support the reality that HIV infections are a thing of the 90s.

With todays educated society, everyone uses protection so nobody has diseases, so really there isn't even a need for people to worry about the protection anymore.

Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: Let's just stop right there. on 04/05/2013 00:11:40 MDT Print View

Max, I'm not disparaging your sentiment, and I'm not trying to get embroiled in any politics, but lets be clear, making an assumption about, categorizing or mis-categorizing someone doesn't constitute "DISCRIMINATION".


Treating them unfavorably because of that categorization or mis-categorization, *IS* discrimination.


That's a seriously big distinction, and you should be careful to understand the difference before holding everyone to your ideals, no matter what they may be.



If I assume you're stupid, based on your misuse of a word, it's not discrimination, although refusing to provide you with a service that I would offer everyone else, based on that assumption, whether or not it's true, would be, by the definition of the word, although probably not by social "standards", yet.



P.S. I know that last part is pretty provoking, I'm just trying to make a strong point. I apologize for how it sounds, I don't think you're stupid, and I understand where you're coming from, just not the rhetoric. Your post from the previous page speaks in a *lot* of idealistic absolutes, and you'd do well to remember that we all live by our own ethics, regardless of how certain you are of yours.

Edited by jdempsey on 04/05/2013 03:52:41 MDT.

Nick Larsen
(stingray4540) - F

Locale: South Bay
Re: Let's just stop right there. on 04/05/2013 01:04:56 MDT Print View

Funny how everything turns into gay rights and discrimination. I don't think I've seen any gay bashing on this thread, yet people are being accused of it?
When medical professionals assume diabetes is a possibility when treating an overweight person, you don't hear fat people crying "DISCRIMINATION".
Seriously people, get over yourselves. No one is out to get you. Just because a LOT of people don't agree with your lifestyle, I haven't hear of too many instances were gay people aren't served at restaurants, are forced to use seperate bathrooms, or sit at the back of the bus.

Oh well, several other people before me said it better. And David was very articulate in defending himself, but it seems no matter what anyone says, some people can't stop seeing red once anyone brings homosexuality into the conversation.

Lol @ ARD. Say what?!
And, in case he wasn't joking ::facepalm::



P.S. To stay somewhat on topic:

> 12+ ibuprofin
> 12+ pepto bismol pills
> 1or2 bandaids of each size
> Single use double antibiotic packets(2to4)*
> 3or4 butterfly bandages*
> disposable razor w/ handle cut short for use with butterflys
> Moleskin
> tick pliers/tweezers

I'd have to double check my kit, but I think that about covers it. I'm mostly concerned about dealing with sickness(pepto) and small injuries that I don't want to go to the hospital for.
Big injuries that will require a hospital visit aren't as big of a concern. I'm going to have to go anyways, so I'm only concerned about getting out, and most items I might need for that can be fashioned out of my regular gear/clothing or harvested.

*I generally agree with David's first comment in this thread, with the following exceptions:
1) I was told by a doctor that double antibiotics are preferable because a lot of people are mildly allergic to neomycin which leads to redness around the wound that is hard to diagnose if it's just a reaction or infection.
2) From what I was told by the same doctor, stitches have to be applied within 4-6? hours or they won't bother. Something about the skin starting to heal already. I've found butterfly bandages to be a pretty good substitute that can be applied by anyone given proper wound preperation, and a helping hand.

Edited by stingray4540 on 04/05/2013 02:42:28 MDT.

Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: Re: Let's just stop right there. on 04/05/2013 03:41:55 MDT Print View

FWIW, my "medical kit" consists of:

Duct Tape
Alcohol (part of my mess kit also, multi-use, GG ;D )
Strong Painkillers (not over the counter stuff, something powerful enough to mitigate serious pain for a bail out)
Some strong Antibiotics and Anti-parasitics I got from a Peruvian Pharmacy, JIC...


Seriously what else could you put to good use? Yeah bandages may probably be a good idea, but if it's serious enough to *really* need one, I imagine my shirt and duct tape will be effective enough. I'm not afraid of ruining my beautiful complexion, and the last time I was in a hospital being patched up they used superglue instead of stitches so, maybe I'll add some to the kit.


I never take medication in regular life. Not even aspirin or Tylenol, I can count the number of times I've taken antibiotics in my life on my hands, but I've been in multiple situations on and off trail, where the only thing that got me out were tenacity and strong painkillers. No amount of bandages are going to help with a broken leg or arm, and if you're bleeding to death, a tourniquet, or your shirt and duct tape, is going to go a lot further than a ton of bandaids and bandages.


Just my opinion, but I think most of this stuff is more about peace of mind than anything, so do what makes you feel good.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Let's just stop right there. on 04/05/2013 07:36:15 MDT Print View

Well Max, yes, being gay DOES put you in a higher risk category for being HIV+. Being tattooed puts you in a higher risk for being positive for Hepatitis C. If you are a body builder i am going to have a thought in my head that you are taking testosterone and growth hormone. Being obese puts you at a higher risk for developing diabetes. Being a man over the age of 50 means you likely have prostate issues. If you a female over 50 you are likely peri menopausal. If you are a fat female you likely have gallstones. If you smoke you do have bad lungs, bad bones, bad circulation, and a ton of other stuff. I ask people about their drinking habits, whether or not they have ever used drugs...not to pass judgement, but because that helps me diagnose their problems better and to treat them.

There are no judgements here at all. Medical professionals look at epidemiology, risk factors, appearance, behavior; we play the odds game when we try to evaluate risk and that's the point. Why are you assuming there is judgement??

You are very young and very idealistic, I get that. But be careful about assuming the rest of us are simply passing judgement, especially in a medical situation.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
reality on 04/05/2013 08:46:55 MDT Print View

Conversation in the back of the ambulance after we went on a call at 3am to a known drug 'hood. My patient has marks on her arms and looks strung out.

James: "ma'am do u have any health problems?"

Woman: "no I don't"

James: "so you don't have any medical things to deal with or worry about?"

Woman: "nope"

James: "how about hepatitis or HIV?"

Woman: "well yeah I got hep-C"

Lolz!! But oh nooooo, James is a discriminator! Send him to the re-education camp!

To Max: thanks for posting kid but u should reset your mode back to 'receive' instead of 'transmit'.

Kevin Schneringer
(Slammer) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma Flat Lands
:) on 04/05/2013 08:50:32 MDT Print View

:)

Edited by Slammer on 04/05/2013 18:43:55 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Let's just stop right there. on 04/05/2013 08:53:48 MDT Print View

"Seriously people, get over yourselves. No one is out to get you."

There are people that like to beat up gay people just for fun, so I can understand Max's comments. They "are out to get them".

And since straight people have AIDS too, the standard medical practice is to treat everyone like they have AIDS and avoid contact with body fluids, so it's irrelevant to bring gayness up. But I don't think anyone had any bad intentions.

I don't think using the "F" word or the "N" or other offensive words is a good thing, no reason to offend people. But maybe turning those words into common words will dillute the offensiveness.

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Let's just stop right there. on 04/05/2013 09:12:44 MDT Print View

>>standard medical practice is to treat everyone like they have AIDS and avoid contact with body fluids

Yes, I thought that was the protocol, which makes the speculation on Manscaped Rafter Guy's love life moot. Honestly not sure why David framed the story that way at all.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: Adventure Medical Kits on 04/05/2013 09:34:01 MDT Print View

Yeah at a certain point, certain posts need to be continued in Chaff, but it's a legit point.

If someone requires first aid on the trail with trauma requiring assistance, their blood and other fluids are assumed to have some sort of cooties nowadays (required first responder training here). You don't know the medical status of anybody except probably your SO (and kids) nowadays with all the freaky diseases out there. Also consider the responder should use the victims first aid kit if the latter is getting evaced while the responder continues to hike.

So back to the OP, ... depending on the length of time, there may need to be more supplies in an easily accessible and visible container. Those ready-bought kits have now have lower weight materials which happen to be brightly colored but having bandages, etc.. in a zip-lock on top of a sparsely loaded pack could work as well. With more gear, probably need to go with the brightly colored nylon zip. My older heavier kits go car camping (including camping site BBQing) trips where my Benedryl, Neosporin, etc... tends to be used up before their expiration date.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Not sure either on 04/05/2013 09:54:12 MDT Print View

I wasn't sure of the relevance of HIV/AIDS infection either but I only deal with infected people for short periods of time (<2 hrs) and don't fully understand the challenges associated with their long term care. I figured that if an MD was concerned then that's good enough for me. Treatment has come a long way so if David's story was 20, 10, or 2 years ago makes a huge difference.

I carpool with a gent who is infected with Hep C. Treatment included chemotherapy. He's not exactly sure how he contracted it but with his level of security clearance, I'm willing to rule out IV drug use.

To look at this guy, you'd never guess that he would be a candidate for a blood borne pathogen.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/05/2013 10:02:25 MDT.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Seriously??? on 04/05/2013 09:57:56 MDT Print View

Max, Nancy and all the other sensitive flowers,

SERIOUSLY????

Dave does't hate anyone from the LGBTQZEW community. He is very liberal and that's just not in their DNA. If anything, you guys owe him a big thankyou. Hell he started a PFLAG Chapter for you guys. Hes not gay, so he certainly didn't do it for himself. (I didn't know what a PFLAG was, but it sounded gay so Googled it). All that said, you guys are attacking the wrong guy here. He is right. Everyone else on the trip returned their medical forms but the gay guy didn't. Dave would be an idiot to not ask WHY or be concerned? Whats this guy hiding? Stop being so sensitive. Dave called a gay guy gay. You guys need to build a bridge and get over it or troll on a forum that doesn't deal with reality.

Loki Cuthbert
(lokbot) - F

Locale: Portland, OR
@ Daniel Pittman on 04/05/2013 11:01:03 MDT Print View

@ Daniel Pittman "We're only five miles from the cars, and the ranger station is right over that hill. There's no first-aid when a mountain lion rips your head off. And besides, I just assume all you faggots have AIDS anyway." We're still friends.

My favorite line in this thread.

I assume all of the faggots I have sex with have HIV/AIDS that's why I use protection.

As a BI/QUEER identifying member of the community I absolve all of the well meaning/harmless comments that Nancy and Max took offense to. There is nothing wrong with assessing risks of medical conditions or disease.


-Loki

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Well, at least we're talking. on 04/05/2013 14:03:25 MDT Print View

I didn't expect everyone to agree with me; still, I had good intentions.

I'd just rather hedge my bets and keep things from getting into dangerous territory where we're profiling HIV based on homosexuality. If I have to be the bad guy for being idealistic, whatever- I haven't got anything to lose. I said it before; HIV is not visual like obesity or bodybuilding, so the only thing you're making the assumption off of is social contract. Not the same as profiling medically.

At the end of the day, a medical professional treats everyone like they have communicable disease- it's been said. That's the only fair way. There's no need to bring the individual's sexuality into the conversation unless it's to extend a stereotype. Just because everyone believes the stereotype does NOT make it ok. But like I said before, I'm on David's side here, I never meant to imply he had some kind of agenda. Anyone who thinks that's where I'm going with this should re-read my posts.


My perspective on homosexuality is at my college. Relatively innocent 18-22 year old college guys grab free condoms every time they pass the resident desk, just like the straight couples. It's probably not a good lens for observing higher rates of STD's like the statistics indicate, but it's a great environment to approach all variations of sexuality as equal, especially in regards to STD's, and that's where I'm coming from. If your experience invalidates that, then so be it.


No regrets, glad I said something, thanks for having a conversation about something important. :)

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: BS! All of it on 04/05/2013 16:24:03 MDT Print View

Moderator

Move to Chaff

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: BS! All of it on 04/05/2013 16:31:41 MDT Print View

This thread definitely went to hell in a handcart.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Gays? on 04/05/2013 16:40:06 MDT Print View

I read the whole thread and am still not certain where the hate crime was?

Some of you need to add chill pills to your back country first aid kit.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Gays? on 04/05/2013 16:41:47 MDT Print View

See?!? Back on topic just like that! Yesss!

Re: puffy pants. OR neoplume

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Light on 04/05/2013 17:08:23 MDT Print View

Good thread, I think. Someone feeling offended, speaking out; someone else explaining where they are coming from. We need more of this and the hopefully we will get to where we are aware and can still express ourselves without causing havoc.
Someone like David, who is clearly aware and open minded should be heard with an equally open mind.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Seriously??? on 04/05/2013 17:25:20 MDT Print View

"Dave would be an idiot to not ask WHY or be concerned? Whats this guy hiding? Stop being so sensitive. Dave called a gay guy gay. You guys need to build a bridge and get over it or troll on a forum that doesn't deal with reality."

Thanks for saying what badly needed to be said, and very well at that, Lawson.

+100!!!

Raymond Estrella
(rayestrella) - MLife

Locale: Northern Minnesota
RE: Adventure Medical Kits on 04/05/2013 17:35:27 MDT Print View

I carry the .3 version most of the time for solo, and even with Dave for short duration trips. (No we are related...) I did add a couple extra things but find they make a nice base first aid kit. (No, aid, not AIDS...)

Max, Max, Max...

Loki Cuthbert
(lokbot) - F

Locale: Portland, OR
stereotypes on 04/06/2013 01:39:40 MDT Print View

Max I think that you have a pretty good understanding on stereotypes. I appreciate your view point and think it's great to point out that gays shouldn't be stereotyped as having STDs hiv/aids. While there are statistics that show that we have higher rates of HIV we also have strong community outreach to provide testing, condoms, and information.

I don't think there is anything to gain by the average straight person to view a gay man as being higher risk with HIV or aids. If you aren't having sex with us you don't have anything to worry about. That being said a doctor or someone in charge of preparing for the worst case scenario in a first aid situation has everything to gain by assessing possible risks and being the most prepared for a situation.

All David did was give a very thorough explanation of his first aid kit and explain how to prepare for certain scenarios

He mentioned that he brought much more equipment to be prepared for the worst because he was rafting and the raft will float no matter how much you bring a long.

I commend David for doing the thorough research to be able to best help the people on the trip and to go out of his way to be prepared for the worst case situation to for someone who was not willing to disclose his medical background.


-loki

Jim Milstein
(JimSubzero) - M

Locale: New Uraniborg CO
Words! on 04/09/2013 21:32:35 MDT Print View

Several years ago I was scolded by my son for using the word niggardly. So far as I know it has only one sense, and that sense has nothing to do with any ethnic or racial or religious or political or whatever group. Maybe he just needed to scold me; maybe I just needed scolding. But ever since I have been niggardly in using that word. Otherwise, I'm liberal in my vocabulary.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Words! on 04/09/2013 21:37:11 MDT Print View

"Several years ago I was scolded by my son for using the word niggardly."

A Washington DC mayor's aide was forced to quit for using the word during Mayor Williams' tenure. He was later rehired.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/10/2013 09:08:45 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/10/2013 09:36:07 MDT.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
The never ending thread on 04/10/2013 09:28:46 MDT Print View

Hey Daniel,

There are other things to consider beyond coming into contact with infected body fluids. I deal with "customers" on a regular basis who are infected and I’m somewhat responsible for their continuity of care (albeit I'm not a health care provider any more.) Many people (certainly not all) who are infected today will live long and fulfilling lives thanks to the breakthroughs in treatment. That has not always been the case.

It makes a huge difference if this story happened in 1985, 1995, or 2005. Depending on when this happened and what treatment he may or may not have been receiving, (if he was infected at all) catching a cold in the wilderness could have had some serious consequences. Without her knowing what his situation was, she may have opted to bring medication to be prepared for that contingency.

I'm not an MD and I can't speak for David's wife but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Marc Loomis
(th12t33n)
So.. on 04/10/2013 10:01:49 MDT Print View

So um...Adventure medical kits.....

I bought the .7 for myself
An the .5 for my son.

In both kits i plan to add.

-Immodium ad
-Advil
-Tylenol
-quikclot.

Also in Mine alone
-Vicodin
-Tums(very bad indigestion here)

Anything else anyone recommends or I'm forgetting? we will do some 7+ers this year mostly weekends.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: So.. on 04/10/2013 10:07:51 MDT Print View

I haven't carried more than some leukotape (wrapped around my trekking poles), a couple of bandaids, some aspirin or tylenol and a small tube of neosporin as my med kit for quite some time. In the summer I add Body Glide liquified powder for chafing.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Chafing? on 04/10/2013 10:13:46 MDT Print View

Am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with chafing?

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/10/2013 10:19:52 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/10/2013 09:34:12 MDT.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/10/2013 10:26:54 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/10/2013 09:33:42 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Chaffing solution: compression base-layer on 04/10/2013 10:39:57 MDT Print View

"For prevention, it's compression base-layers."

I use the Body Glide as a preventative instead of waiting for the chaffing to happen. I also used a pair of compression shorts on my Sierra hike last August (instead of the usual Ex Officio boxers) - but not for chafing. Come to think of it, though, I did sweat a lot (as usual) and don't remember needing the Body Glide, so the shorts must have helped as well.

Brandon =Þ
(Beeen) - MLife

Locale: California
Re: Chafing? on 04/10/2013 13:43:38 MDT Print View

"Am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with chafing?"

I usually don't, but have some not so fond memories that pushes me to pack a little zinc oxide cream (also doubles as my nose & cheek sunscreen).

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Chafing? on 04/10/2013 17:18:19 MDT Print View

While working as an automotive technician in Palm Springs, one August we had an unusual series of tropical storms originating in Baja, Mexico. Every day the weather forecast called for highs in the 115F – 118F range with a 90% chance of afternoon thundershowers. This went on for 3 or 4 weeks. As you can imagine, working in an open air service bay was not fun. After a couple of days I developed a painful rash in the area of my thighs and groin. Washing at night and using talcum powder did little to help. Finally I went to a drug store to buy something to help. The pharmacist was very helpful. He explained that I had “jock itch” and that is was a fungal infection. He further said that the presence of fungi is not unusual, but with the right combination of moisture, warmth, and time the fungi causes an infection. The hot moist air, and me sweating constantly was promoting the fungal growth and infection. He also explained that people who are overweight get a similar rash, but it is more from skin rubbing on skin and against clothing – he called this chafing. Both result in similar results and pain. With either problem, loose clothing is best, especially fabrics that wick moisture away from the skin. Skin-tight shorts that wick under loose clothing often helps.

He suggested that I buy an off-the-shelf anti-fungal spray, after work each day shower and carefully dry all areas completely, and apply the spray. And it worked. Each morning the rash was gone and I felt as good as new. I would get a little discomfort towards the end of each day, but repeating the process daily made life bearable. And when the humidity decreased, the problem went away completely.

Chafing happens when the skin rubs against skin or clothing and there is a lot of perspiration or moisture in the affected area. Applying a lubricant such as Body Glide or similar along with a wicking base layer helps most people. If you are overweight, fix that problem first so your thighs or buttocks don’t rub against each other.

One problem backpackers have is keeping these hinter areas clean. Whenever possible a good daily (minimum) washing and drying is necessary. Since I am rather skinny chafing is never a problem. Hiking in hot, humid weather can be potentially by problematic. For this kind of weather, when I must wear long pants, I wear a pair of Ex-Officio Boxer Briefs along with a pair of Rail Riders Eco-Mesh Pants. The briefs wick away moisture and the mesh panels on the pants keep things ventilated, plus the pants have a generous cut and loose fit. Mostly I wear shorts when hiking. My favorites are Patagonia Baggies, which come with a brief liner and pockets to carry stuff. I cut out the liner so there is plenty of ventilation. When I don’t need pockets in my shorts, I wear Patagonia Field Shorts. Loose and plenty of ventilation with both of these shorts. Colin Fletcher’s Second Law of Thermodynamic Walking explains how this works: “Give your balls some air.”

Except the one time I experienced jock itch as an automotive technician I have never had a problem with chafing or fungal infection. And I don’t need to wash the hinterland daily when backpacking.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: Chafing? on 04/10/2013 17:29:38 MDT Print View

For anyone that lives in the south and works outside what Nick describes is part of life.

I never knew what exactly what it was, we always called it heat rash but it would fire up in the spring and make my heiney and thighs even more unflattering.

Nick doesn't usually get it cause its dry where he is, and now i usually don't get it cause in live in the PNW and its usually not hot enough.

Regarding chafing i lost weight and the chafing stopped. Rubbing skin? I also now wear syn boxer briefs as opposed to wool. Done and done.