John-

No offense taken to your comments! We appreciate the questions and the critical eye. Thanks for posting your thoughts...

Sam Sam-

It is REALLY hard to shock yourself. There are webbing tabs to grab with one hand while you unzip the controller pocket to deactivate the bag. The real danger I suppose is just simply forgetting that you turned it on! There is an LED that blinks when the controller is activated and a clear window on the controller pocket so you can see it...

Availability: Our intent is to have them ready for sale sometime this month. Likely mid to late May. '

Brian

Saw that it was from Utah and wondered if you were involved. Here's to hoping that this gets the required thumbs up from the powers that be, especially SEKI and Yosemite. I am quite interested in this. I just hope that the price is not too high though. Good luck Brian!!


Oh and it is really hard to shock yourself on this unit? Ummm none of you have had the pleasure of hiking with me......Oh boy it will happen to me regardless, guaranteed!!! LOL!!

Edited by kennyhel77 on 05/01/2007 08:06:08 MDT.

Love the concept; here's hoping it's a huge success!

Now, about getting a solar panel on it :-)

Rick-

The solar panel is not out of the question actually, but it will be VERY difficult to develop something that is less weight and as effective as simply just carrying (2) spare AA lithiums and getting a fresh ~96 hrs of run time...

Brian

My First Post!
Great idea. There is lots of room for improvement in this area. Glad to see someone thinking outside the (bear)box.

I really, really want one. Any word yet on when you'll be offering these for sale?

Although here in Japan such devices are rarely necessary (they do have ring-necked bears and brown bears... relative of the grizzly... , wild boars, raccoon dogs, and macaques here), having lived in the US and spent a lot of time in the mountains there this is a very interesting idea. While I read the information about how it works I started thinking about all the methods that animals use to deter potential predators, especially insects, the masters of chemical solutions.

Some other ideas:

1) camouflage
2) mimicry
3) very bad and tenacious smell
4) display- aural or visual
5) spines
6) difficulty in dislodging
7) very bad or tenacious taste
8) some kind of non-lethal toxin
9) heat
10) distraction
11) humor

1) The first line of defense. If you can't be seen then maybe the predator will go away.

2) If you look like something the predator is scared of or dislikes maybe the predator will leave you alone. Many bee-flies look like bees or wasps, many non-lethal snakes look like poisonous snakes (coral snake and milk snake).

3) Many animals and plants use this approach. Just think of skunks and stink bugs. Very often the smell is very hard to rid of, reminding the predator for a long time afterwards about your unpleasantness.

4) Small animals and plants often use this. By making a very loud, threatening noise or appearing to be bigger than you are you can often scare predators away. Bearded lizards, praying mantises, cats with hair standing on end, cobras with hoods opened, even cockroaches with their sudden movements. Very often animals will employ big eye-like marks. Sometimes the animals or plants grow bigger, by inflating themselves or throwing up large displays. Some frogs and fish, like the blowfish, will balloon to twice their size or more.

5) Porcupines, cacti, spiny toads, scorpion fish, all use spines to keep predators at bay. In the case of porcupines and many caterpillars the spines break off, again reminding the predator of how unpleasant you are.

6) By using the surrounding environment to their advantage, many animals and plants make it difficult for them to be dislodged or moved. Chukwallas with their inflating themselves between rocks and insects that slide into tight spaces are good examples.

7) Many animals and plants, once they've been discovered, resort to tasting really bad so that the next time the predator happens upon them the predator avoids them. And like the bad smelling animals, often the taste is tenacious and even sickening so that the predator spends considerable time trying to rid themself of the taste. Very often bad tasting and bad smelling animals have bright colors (usually yellow and black, or bright red).

8) Toxins are very common among insects and amphibians. Many caterpillars use all kinds of toxins. Some are related to bad taste or bad smell, some are very painful (cayenne is one of the most painful toxins in the natural world), some drug you and make you feel sleepy or delirious.

9) Not many animals use this as it is hard to mix the chemicals, but insects like the bombadier beetle employ a super-heated acid spray through a flexible nozzle that really does its job. I know, because I've been sprayed in the eye by one! I was screaming for about half an hour afterwards!

10) Lots of animals will leave something to tempt the predator away. Sometimes it is a broken off limb or body part, sometimes it is an enticing alternate meal in a different location, sometimes, like with the killdeer it is putting yourself in harm's way and drawing the predator off away from something you want to protect.

11) It never hurts to have a great sense of humor. You make a bully laugh hard enough there's probably little danger of being attacked by one. You could always have a picture of you beating up the bear on the cover of the food bag. I'm sure the bear would get a kick out of that.

These are just a few ideas, There are millions of ideas out there in nature. If you look at the bears' environment and lifestyle in the US, look at how animals and plants have evolved there to deter bears from getting to them. I'm sure there must be a lot of specific examples. If you can't see them, then you are not looking closely enough at the environments that you are walking through. Only humans use bear bags, after all...

Edited by butuki on 06/16/2007 21:03:51 MDT.

We should remember in discussing and reading this that a bear deterrent is about protecting the bear as well as protecting the hiker. Preventing bears from becoming desensitized to humans is key in preventing unfortunate incidents. So part of deterring a bear is doing our part up front in making sure bears don't become desensitized to human activity, don't get food rewards, and that we do our part in not triggering defensive behaviors (startling a bear, getting between a sow and her cubs, etc). The best deterrent is one you never have to use...

Edited by jjpitts on 06/17/2007 12:27:50 MDT.

"Only humans use bear bags, after all..."

humans are also one of the few animals that carry or store food, as opposed to eating food when it is found and storing it as body fat (although some of us do keep a fat store handy). in this case, we as human animals are devising our own ways to keep our food safe from our competitors in the food chain. we're just using our slight cognitive advantage to utilize natural forces like electricity. if a squirrel could grasp the concept of wiring some sort of electrical protection for the nuts it has hidden in a tree, then you bet it would do it!

sorry, got sucked into the fun of imaginative speculation.

http://www.wilderness-solutions.com/palisade_est.htm

Just an update:

The Palisade EST is now in-stock and available for purchase. The website has been updated with pricing and additional images and instruction for use.

Please note that the Palisade EST is not yet certified by SIBBG or IGBC, regardless of the fact that they are now available.

Brian

Bravo, Brian. I really hope these get certified-- for both black bear and grizzly. I'd like to be able to confidently use one of these puppies in Denali Nat'l Park in future.

Edited by kdesign on 06/25/2007 19:55:29 MDT.

Thanks Kevin.

We have been in talks with the NPS. Many areas and parks are currently working on management policy updates for 2008 and they have shown an interest in the product...

We'll see...

Brian

I just wonder what devious uses for this device mean spirited boy scouts will dream up.

"It's my new battery warmed hood mikey, try it on!"

Unfortunately, that's not far from plausible.

Re: "I started thinking about all the methods that animals use to deter potential predators, especially insects, the masters of chemical solutions. Some other ideas:
1) camouflage
2) mimicry
3) very bad and tenacious smell
4) display- aural or visual
5) spines
6) difficulty in dislodging
7) very bad or tenacious taste
8) some kind of non-lethal toxin
9) heat
10) distraction
11) humor"
When you combine this line of thinking with the bear killing covered on BPL in another thread (AMERICAN FORK, Utah (June 18) - An 11-year-old boy was dragged screaming from his family's tent and killed by a black bear during a Father's Day outing in the Utah wilderness. The boy, his mother, stepfather and a 6-year-old brother were sleeping in a large tent Sunday night in American Fork Canyon, about 30 miles southeast of Salt Lake City, when the stepfather heard the boy scream "something's dragging me." The boy's body was found about 400 yards away from the campsite, said Lt. Dennis Harris of the Utah County sheriff's office. Wildlife officers led by hound dogs killed the bear Monday) is there some way to keep bears away from your tent? An electric wire around the perimiter? Pepper spray on some of the natural objects around the camp site? Skunk essence used by hunters dripped on the ground around the perimeter? Dynamite on a spectra cord trigger? Family members tied to trees to kill the bear's appetite before it works its way to you?

I'd go the humor route----it's lighter.

Seriously, there's no 100% deterrent short of Ursine genocide. But I would start by being very, very careful about food smells getting into the tent----that is wash hands after eating, don't bring food or other strong smelling items into the tent, don't bring stuff bags or ziplocs that have come into contact with food into the tent, keep the kitchen and all food related activities far away from the tent, don't leave garbage around and practice sound bear deterring food storage strategies---away from camp. Until I hear otherwise, I believe that bear was attracted to something in the tent and it probabl;y wasn't human flesh.

Edited by kdesign on 06/26/2007 15:32:06 MDT.

Well, I guess you could always try hair curlers... they're bound to drive cosmopolitan bears into fits of fashion sense horror!

Metrosexual Lions and Tigers and Bears----oh my.

Brian - the video is worth a thousand words. Good luck with the patent and early retirement!

In your early retirement, perhaps you could come up with an electrified bear-deterring tent. Preferably one with lots of mesh, in order to "minimize contact with the walls," as they say.