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Sub 15 oz bear deterrent...
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Brian Frankle
(bdf37) - F
Sub 15 oz bear deterrent... on 04/30/2007 08:24:17 MDT Print View

Josh Leavitt from Ti Goat and I have started a new company.

Check it out at:

www.wilderness-solutions.com

If this qualifies as product pimpin' my apologies. We just got back from the PCTKOP and a warm reception to the idea and the product. We thought BPL'ers would like to be informed...

Brian

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Price? on 04/30/2007 09:16:30 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 11/01/2013 09:43:30 MDT.

Brian Frankle
(bdf37) - F
sub 15 oz bear deterrent...price on 04/30/2007 09:31:03 MDT Print View

David-

Still working out the details on that. It certainly won't be the cheapest, but we are doing what we can to keep the cost reasonable. If you hike in groups and us the optional array the cost can be offset...one controller (the $$$ part) can power multiple bags. I will update the post when we get that figured...Thanks for your interest.

Brian

Sam Haraldson
(sharalds) - MLife

Locale: Gallatin Range
Sub 15 oz bear deterrent... on 04/30/2007 09:48:35 MDT Print View

Another innovation from some of our friends in the community industry. Good luck with approval from "the man".

First Last
(snusmumriken) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Sub 15 oz bear deterrent... on 04/30/2007 10:05:48 MDT Print View

Looks good!

Shawn Basil
(Bearpaw) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Sub 15 oz bear deterrent... on 04/30/2007 10:13:26 MDT Print View

I like the idea. I was an instructor on some of the "guinea pig" NOLS Absaroka courses that first used electrified bear fences in 2003. They were a pain to carry and set-up, but once the juice was on, they WORKED. We even had tracks one morning after a light snow clearly showing mom and cub circling the fence, but our food was untouched. This seems like a much simpler use of the technology and much more applicable for a solo hiker.

Edited by Bearpaw on 04/30/2007 10:14:17 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
A Shocking Deterrent on 04/30/2007 10:31:51 MDT Print View

Intriguing! Best of luck on the approvals. Are there plans to expand the line to a range of different sizes if all goes well?

John Kays
(johnk) - M

Locale: SoCal
Re: Re: Sub 15 oz bear deterrent... on 04/30/2007 10:52:04 MDT Print View

Shawn, The successful use of these electric fences is intriguing. It seems that a lightweight, inexpensive shocker could be devised for backcountry use. Sounds kind of like “fido-shock” we used several years ago to keep the puppy out of the planter. This bag pictured above uses only Double AA batteries. Based on your experience with NOLS would you expect a viable lightweight alternative to heavy bear canisters could be developed to protect food from bears?

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
HMMMMM... on 04/30/2007 10:57:11 MDT Print View

When not hiking I could use this to keep my Playboy mags in & keep my wife from throwing them in the trash. Hmmmmmm...

Other uses also come to mind. How about ans insulated model for personal beer?

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Sub 15 oz bear deterrent... on 04/30/2007 11:14:10 MDT Print View

hi brian,

visited your site and saw the pic

how does the power switch work? one push or click?

maybe only yogi the bear could figure out how to turn it off : )

Brian Frankle
(bdf37) - F
sub 15 oz bear deterrent on 04/30/2007 11:30:17 MDT Print View

The controller is activated/deactivated by a simple press of a button. The controller itself is housed in a seperate zippered pocket on the bottom of the bag. If you care to try, duct tape your thumbs together and try to unzip and press the button to switch it off without making contact...pretty tricky!

As for the fences, they were originally tested in the 80's by SIABBG and eventually the black bears learned to simply crash the fence...justifying the one shock they received with the tasty treats on the other side.

Even in Alaska, where fences have been used for sometime, the Grizzlies are figuring them out...felling trees, moving rocks etc to crash the fence and then climb over with no ill effects...just a satiated appetite.

As for bag sizing, materials, etc we will obviously offer what we can (with an interest in reducing weight) pending approval and how that approval is worded. Thanks for your interest folks!

Brian

Brian Markey
(bmlaw) - MLife

Locale: Northeast
Re: sub 15 oz bear deterrent on 04/30/2007 12:47:44 MDT Print View

Brian: the video on your site really shows how effective it is. It looks very interesting!

David Neumann
(idahomtman) - M

Locale: Northern Idaho
Palisade EST on 04/30/2007 14:21:28 MDT Print View

Electric fences are outstanding protection aginst bears. The BLM places electric fences along the lower Rogue River and requires rafting parties to place their food, garbage and coolers within the enclosures. Much better than having a sharp-clawed bear climb aboard your raft to get at your vittles. Great idea!

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Sub 15 oz bear deterrent... on 04/30/2007 15:35:24 MDT Print View

A few wanderings...

1. Is 1.2 seconds between electric discharges too much? If a hungry, aggressive bear crushes it on first approach, game over.
2. How big is the turn off button? If the bear throws it around could it get stuck where it would be difficult to turn off?
3. Liner collapsible? If the bear puts a tooth or claw through it on first approach, leaking will ensue.
4. Low battery alarm...is there advanced warning of low batteries other than alarm or will it go off suddenly at 2 AM when the bear is circling?..lol
5. What happens when that fabric gets wet with the electric discharge? Don't put it in or near any potential puddle of water.
6. If it gets slapped into water, even shallow water, it may leak?
7. Turning it off when wet...finding a button in 1.2 second window while wet...button not included in circuitry I am sure, but water changes all that with any fabric where even beading water may be in contact with button?
8. Does it have to be certified by those dudes at UL laboratories (or whatever those guys are named that certify electrical devices)?
9. Get your attorneys advice since it is outwardly electrical and you will have to approach/touch it while wet. A large disclaimer may be warranted.

It's not the voltage that kills, but the amperage, according to my past physics professor. Even small battery amperage can kill. Any electrical experts here to confirm that?

Edited by jshann on 04/30/2007 15:52:23 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Sub 15 oz bear deterrent... on 04/30/2007 18:29:38 MDT Print View

Good questions.
Not to want to be mean to a bear but I am just wondering what a bear would do with a 5000 volt shock?
If it runs away, I'll be more than happy to get the product.
The only really concerns I have is what 5000 volts would do to a squirrel or marmot?

Timothy Cristy
(tcristy) - F

Locale: Ohio
Sub 15 oz bear deterrent.. on 04/30/2007 18:57:37 MDT Print View

>The only really concerns I have is what 5000 volts would do to a squirrel or marmot?

Or me! If I had one of these, I would expect to get myself occasionally as I absent-mindedly pick it up.

Brian Frankle
(bdf37) - F
sub 15 oz bear deterrent on 04/30/2007 19:25:11 MDT Print View

1. Is 1.2 seconds between electric discharges too much? If a hungry, aggressive bear crushes it on first approach, game over.

***In our research we discovered that bears do not tend to "rush" a food source that is immobile. While they might give chase to moving prey, they would not for example "rush" a huckleberry bush no matter how hungry they are. As the video shows (and is the habit of a bear) they investigate with their nose. The nose tells 'em if it is worth expending the energy to investigate further.

2. How big is the turn off button? If the bear throws it around could it get stuck where it would be difficult to turn off?

***Again, the bears investigate initially with their noses. We've been told that the bear can actually sense the pulsing electrical current. When the shock is delivered at the interval it generally catches the bear off guard. The shock of being surprised has thus far deterred the bear from coming back to beat the crap out of the bag...which if they did, they would receive multiple shocks whenever they make contact. The off/on button is a flat. It is not raised in anyway, and requires a FIRM press to activate or deactivate. Teh controller is housed in a zippered pocket which disallowes easy access.

3. Liner collapsible? If the bear puts a tooth or claw through it on first approach, leaking will ensue.

***Sure. The bag is soft, but I will again mention that bears initially investigate with their nose. They do not just walk around looking to stick something in their mouths.

4. Low battery alarm...is there advanced warning of low batteries other than alarm or will it go off suddenly at 2 AM when the bear is circling?

***The controller does have a low battery alarm as well as diagnostics for not only checking the battery life that remains, but also slows the pulse to 2.4 secs to maintain activation. Really though, it is up to YOU the user to make sure you have fresh batteries before you head out. Alkalines last ~75 hrs, lithiums ~96 hrs. That is 9 or 12 days respectively if you activate it for 8 hrs each night.

5. What happens when that fabric gets wet with the electric discharge? Don't put it in or near any potential puddle of water.

***The outside material is urethane coated so the material will not saturate. Obviously the bag should not be submerged or placed in a spot where water will collect. We've tried to short it out with snow, water, etc, but it is quite difficult to do as each length of woven circuitry has 4 strands of positive and negative wire. One strand of the circuitry can be shorted out, but the remaining 3 are still functional. 5,000 volts is still the output regardless if you are down to 1 of 4 strands of circuitry. Again, the user needs to THINK and follow the instructions to make certain that the container is being used properly. Regular canisters don't work if they lids are not on!

6. If it gets slapped into water, even shallow water, it may leak?

***Again, placement of the bag is obviously important. 100 yds from camp, 100 yds from water is a good idea. The controller and bag are weatherproof.

7. Turning it off when wet...finding a button in 1.2 second window while wet...button not included in circuitry I am sure, but water changes all that with any fabric where even beading water may be in contact with button?

***The controller is secured in a weatherproof pocket on the bag end.

8. Does it have to be certified by those dudes at UL laboratories (or whatever those guys are named that certify electrical devices)?

***As far as we know, that is not a requirement for certification.

9. Get your attorneys advice since it is outwardly electrical and you will have to approach/touch it while wet. A large disclaimer may be warranted.

***Thank you for the advice.

10. What about small animals such as rodents, marmots, etc? How does 5,000 volts affect them?

***As a previous post alluded to, it's not the voltage that kills, but the amperage. This unit is high voltage, low amps. Any animal (rodent, bird, etc) can make contact and not be injured. We guarantee that you will not awake to your food bag surrounded by dead animals, and the shock that a curious critter receives will not be harmful in any way.

Brian

Edited by bdf37 on 04/30/2007 19:29:02 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: sub 15 oz bear deterrent on 04/30/2007 20:36:56 MDT Print View

I forgot to say something positive to Mr. Brian...it is a great idea and I hope it works out for you! Take my "wanderings" as simply brainstorming issues that will come up sooner or later. You probably had thought of all of them anyway : ).

sam sam
(123456789) - F
Re: Re: sub 15 oz bear deterrent on 04/30/2007 21:15:03 MDT Print View

Neat idea for the outdoors, are the batteries recharged or removable, can we use the batteries for something else when we do not need the shocks?

When in China a few years ago, they sold a similar 'security bag' that would help you keep someone else from stealing your bag. But they used a remote clicker like on your car to turn off or on. This might be a good idea for yours so you do not get shocked when turning off.

Sam Sam

Randy Brissey
(rbrissey) - M

Locale: Redondo Beach, CA
E. T. A.? on 04/30/2007 22:23:42 MDT Print View

Hello,

I am interested in saving weight and also space savings. Since I am a notorious early adopter of such gadgets...........my big question is

Will it make it to market before july?

Randy