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Warm downjacket for the "waiting time" (photographer)
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Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
Warm downjacket for the "waiting time" (photographer) on 03/26/2013 06:35:12 MDT Print View

I'm an amateur photographer and am often standing around for 2-3 hours without moving.
I've got an excellent primaloft jacket that is warm enough for sport activities, but it's not enough for
things like this.
Therefore I am looking for a good, warm and lightweight down jacket that I can use for this purpose.
Since the prices are dropping at the end of the season here, it's a good time currently.

I am using 4-5 Rab Jackets and I'm very happy with them, that's why I had a look at the following jackets:

Rab Summit Jacket, http://rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/down_1/p-summit-jacket-p.html (maybe too warm?)
Rab Neutrino Plus Jacket, http://rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/down_1/neutrino-plus-jacket.html
Rab Infinity Jacket, http://rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/down_1/p-infinity-jacket-p.html

I've left out the endurance versions since I think if it is that cold, it's usually not really wet.
So I don't need the endurance shell..
But I'm unsure which of these jackets are suitable, maybe someone here has already experience with one of them?

I'm of course also open to alternatives to Rab (I'm from Europe so not all brands are easily reachable though).
I want to use the jacket also for cold winter touring and camp evenings.

Thanks a lot!
Christoph

Johan Engberg
(luffarjohan) - M

Locale: Wrong place at the right rime
Warm downjacket for the "waiting time" (photographer)" on 03/26/2013 07:17:53 MDT Print View

There is a review on the Rab Infinity in the members section if you can see that.

Or if you want to be a little bit unorthodox go and check "jerven fjällduk" out. http://jerven.mediabook.no/5/

It's a norwegian company making isolated bivy/bothybags for hunters/military/photographers/anyone who wants to be still for a long time. It's not lightweight but for the intended use it's perfect. Quite versatile and probably perfect for your intended use but I don't think it can do as much double duty as you want.

and to paraphrase: It's made right here in Europe. :)

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Warm downjacket for the "waiting time" (photographer)" on 03/26/2013 11:29:06 MDT Print View

I bought a rab infinity and I have to say that it is, by far, the warmest coat I've ever used. It is embarrassingly puffy, especially the hood, and I have never, ever been cold in it.

For info, I live in Chicago and have bought and gotten rid of literally hundreds of coats and jackets looking for one that would keep me warm in the windy, chilly city. If it were longer it would be perfect (when it's that cold I like my bum covered), but if I have enough insulation and wind proof ness for bottoms I'm good.

This keeps me warm while I take my pup to Lake Michigan in below zero temps and 30 mph winds. Enuf said.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Warm downjacket for the "waiting time" (photographer) on 03/26/2013 13:29:31 MDT Print View

Christoph,

Your question has no logical answer unless you specify the minimum temperature you must be comfortable standing around for 2-3 hours.

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: Warm downjacket for the "waiting time" (photographer) on 03/26/2013 21:27:20 MDT Print View

in cool conditions don't forget your legs. The worlds best insulated jacket won't do you any good if you don't insulateo your legs with fleece or down pants. Long underwear is also very helpful.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
logical answer.. on 03/27/2013 03:20:05 MDT Print View

Well I think that there is a logical answer to this question. I'm not looking for a jacket that I can use at a specific temperature.

I'm rather looking for people that have experience with one of the jackets and can tell me when for example a summit is enough, when it is too warm, etc.

The ranges I need a jacket like that are 0 to -20 degrees celsius I would guess.

I of course do have something warm for my legs, that's why I specifically ask for a jacket..
The Jerven stuff is more for stationary use as it seems, but I have to be able to move..

Regarding the above mentioned jackets, the fill distribution is:

275g of 750 fill power goose down at 880g (summit
275g of 800 fill European Goose down at 785g (neutrino plus)
210g of 850 fill European down 500g (infinity)

does anyone know how this relates to each other? :)

Edited by chbla on 03/27/2013 03:32:58 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: logical answer.. on 03/27/2013 09:28:18 MDT Print View

Christoph,

The 1.5 MET rate your stated activity is less than the 1.75 MET average for camp chores; this requires a warmer jacket for the same temperature. The lowest anticipated temperature is the critical one. The higher end of the range can just be handled by unzipping the jacket.

All three of the Rab jackets you asked about are more than adequate for a low of 0C at 1.5 MET. Your best Rab choice for low weight and cost is the Infinity. It will allow you to be thermo-neutral doing your activity to a low of -4C.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Feathered Friends on 03/27/2013 09:53:05 MDT Print View

This is probably obvious but: Check out feathered friends hooded helios or voalant jackets... I have had both they work great for being stagnant. Great jackets for camp and hanging out waiting for the perfect light.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
Jacket on 03/27/2013 09:55:49 MDT Print View

Hi Richard,

Thanks a lot for your insight.

Out of curiosity: How do you come to the conclusion regarding temperature, based on the jackets and the met rate?
I also thought of combining the Jacket with one of my down vests, for flexibility.

How would you rate the other two jackets temperature wise, and what do you think is needed for a met rate of the camp activity you stated?

Thanks a lot,
Christoph

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Jacket on 03/27/2013 11:53:58 MDT Print View

Christoph,

You can BPL forum search my related past posts on these topics. The multi-part answers are far too long and complicated for me to repeat.

Your camp chores MET rate will average 1.75 MET and will require less insulation to be thermo-neutral at the same temperature.

Jacket 1.5 MET T-N C 1.75 MET T-N C

Rab Infinity -4 -10

Rab Neutrino Plus -11 -18

Rab Summit Jacket -8 -15

Peter Fokkinga
(nitto)

Locale: the Netherlands
calculating necessary insulation on 03/27/2013 18:10:27 MDT Print View

Richard,

In similar vein, could you give an estimate on the amount (weight) of 900 cuin (US) needed in a jacket to be comfortable at 1.75 MET and 0 degrees C? Assuming a simple hat, and something like the current (3.8oz Polartec PD) Cap4 shirt as a baselayer? And would the material of the shell (ultralight 10d vs regular 20d) make a perceptible difference in isolation?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: calculating necessary insulation on 03/27/2013 19:12:56 MDT Print View

Peter,

3.41 oz. There will be no perceptible insulation difference (wind or no wind) between 10d and 20d shells since they are both down-proof fabrics for this application.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
calculations on 03/28/2013 01:57:21 MDT Print View

Thanks a lot Richard!

That's interesting, I thought the summit might be warmer.
Would it make a big difference to get one of the endurance versions of these Rab Jackets?

Do you know, by heart, any alternatives that I should consider to the Rab jackets?

Thanks a lot for your help!

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: calculations on 03/28/2013 02:36:52 MDT Print View

The Endurance coating is fairly water/moisture resistant. Maybe more importantly for some, is the rather "dull" finish and hand as opposed to the regular Quantum GL's glossy look and "slippery" hand.

Unless weight is more important, the Neutrino Plus will be a much warmer feeling jacket if you are just sitting quietly for hours on end. The Infinity is a rather short cut meant for climbing.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
yeti.pl alternative on 03/28/2013 03:49:26 MDT Print View

Thanks Rick, I thought so, yes

In the meantime, someone else pointed out these alternatives from yeti.pl:

Torre II down jacket Black DRY
http://www.yeti.com.pl/en/spiwory-kurtki-kamizelki-puchowe/details/1435/14/odzie%C5%BC-puchowa/kurtka-puchowa-torre-ii

Pro II Jacket black dry
http://www.yeti.com.pl/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&Itemid=57&category_id=14&product_id=930

Both with 860 cuin down.. but I can't see the fill weight or total weight anywhere.

Peter Fokkinga
(nitto)

Locale: the Netherlands
Re: Re: calculating necessary insulation on 03/29/2013 02:36:05 MDT Print View

Thank you Richard, this is really helping me!

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
calculation on 04/03/2013 14:15:04 MDT Print View

Richard, is there any thread/post where you explain how to calculate these values?
Then I could do it for some jacket models and get some estimates.

I will receive the data for the yeti.pl jackets soon

Grave Worm
(Graveworm) - MLife

Locale: London
Infinity view and possible alternatives to consider. on 04/03/2013 23:36:42 MDT Print View

I have the Infinity and it's a great jacket but it is stitch through and it would not be my preferred jacket at -20C especially if I was standing around. I don't know about the Neutrino Plus but that has a Box Wall construction. If you don't mind waiting and they are within your budget then I am sure PHD have something that will fit the bill or if they don't they do a design your own jacket they will also customise any of their range to suit. I have 4 Jackets and a vest from them (Together with a few Bags) and I am very happy with all of them. For minus 20C I would be very comfortable standing around in the Hispar.

Edited by Graveworm on 04/03/2013 23:37:55 MDT.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
continuing on 09/13/2013 04:49:02 MDT Print View

alright - the summer stopped my plans for this jacket, but now it's time to continue :)

Richard, as written above already, do you mind sharing how you calculate these values based on the specs? I'm right now especially looking at the Yeti jackets..

Richard Fischel
(RICKO) - F
+1 on the ff volant for your described needs on 09/13/2013 15:15:32 MDT Print View

not sure of their avalibilty in eu. i got mine off of ebay for a steal and they show-up with some regularity, at good prices and in a multitude of sizes.

Stephen Komae
(skomae) - MLife

Locale: northeastern US
Patagonia Fitz Roy on 09/13/2013 15:46:46 MDT Print View

I have the Patagonia Fitz Roy as my cold weather/alpine belay jacket. It is ridiculously warm. It is built with box-baffles like winter sleeping bags. The hood seals the deal, since there is nothing like having a nice toasty head.

Very expensive at MSRP, but can be sometimes found for a great deal.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
DriDown, et. al. on 09/13/2013 20:26:27 MDT Print View

I recommend buying a down jacket made with some form of down-specific DWR (Durable Water Repellant) substance.

Dri Down, Encapsul and a few other treatments make down VERY resistant to both exterior wet (rain, snow) and interior dampness (sweat).

Plus, once wet they dry very fast, faster than some synthetic fills.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Swamplands.
Re: Warm downjacket for the "waiting time" (photographer) on 09/14/2013 05:25:02 MDT Print View

Personally I like the infinity because of the Dri-down.

Here are the threads of Richard Nisley's work:

The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking?
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/9378/index.html

A New Paradigm for Understanding Garment Warmth
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=18950

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
thanks on 09/25/2013 03:34:14 MDT Print View

Thanks for your comments and links!

However, I can't find anywhere how to actually calculate (at least an estimate) these values based on the expected MET values and loft weight/material.. or did I miss this?

Thanks a lot,
Christoph

Lapsley Hope
(Laps) - M
how about this? on 09/25/2013 06:12:31 MDT Print View

Eddie Bauer First Ascent BC MicroTherm™ Down Jacket 2.0.
I don't own one, but seriously considering it due to water repellant properties.
I have a MontBell Alpine Lite which is great for backpacking, but still have to wear a waterproof shell with it if raining.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
Yeti Torre II on 12/05/2013 08:56:37 MST Print View

I got a response from Yeti now.

The Yeti Torre II contains (size L):
1. The best Gold ( 860 cui ) down 325 gr.
2. 700 cui - 360 gr.

Richard Nisley, what are the limits for this Jacket (not moving much, as stated in the earlier posts, photographing)?
I'm not sure if it isn't too warm ..

Thanks a lot,
Christoph

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: Yeti Torre II on 12/05/2013 16:50:02 MST Print View

An easy way to ballpark a static temp rating is to think of your jacket as ~40% of a full hooded sleeping bag. So with a ~345g down in a jacket, you can expect this to be similar to a sleeping bag with 345/0.4 = ~863g of down. EN-rated ~180cm long bags with ~863g down are typically rated to around -18C/0F.

Remember though this low temp rating is only valid in a wind blocking shelter. If you are sitting around in an exposed area with even a slight breeze, expect lower performance. And of course at -18C, you must have your legs covered by some serious down pants/blanket/bag too and be sitting on a R5-rated ground insulating mat as well. Frankly, I would want to have a small wood or canister gas stove/radiant heater nearby if I had to sit around for hours at this temp.

Edited by rmjapan on 12/05/2013 17:46:59 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Yeti Torre II on 12/05/2013 17:44:39 MST Print View

-10F for standing thermo neural temp during photography. As Rick stated the rating assumes shelter from the wind.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
Thanks! on 12/06/2013 00:56:23 MST Print View

Thanks a lot for your comments!

I think, this one might get rather warm, considering that -20 is the peak basically.
In this case the Rab Neutrino Plus mentioned above might be a better option as it's in the middle.. and I could then add a middle layer down shirt or anything like that for the colder days..

However, the Neutrino Plus is quite heavy

Edited by chbla on 12/06/2013 00:59:08 MST.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
waiting on 12/06/2013 02:06:38 MST Print View

Many years of sitting motionless for hours in deer stands and duck blinds taught me that no clothing provides enough warmth if you are not moving. Sit still for 4 hours and you will be uncomfortably cold in almost any temperature unless you are way overdressed for it.

Insulated coveralls are nice below 45F

It also GREATLY depends on if you are in sun exposure or not. Night and day differenc.

Edited by livingontheroad on 12/06/2013 02:07:49 MST.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
moving on 12/06/2013 02:10:08 MST Print View

Hi,

In my case I don't completely stand still all the time, as in deer stands etc, so it's not that crucial. I can move if I want, but if you just move in an area of some meters, waiting for a good shot, then it's getting cold quite fast.

I also think that I can improve shoes/trousers as well in addition.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
yeti or rab on 12/06/2013 09:40:55 MST Print View

I'm torn between the Yeti Torre II and the Rab Neutrino Plus right now.

Although they claim it's a good city jacket for could winter days, I think the torre is a bit too warm. I tend towards the Neutrino Plus

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
neutrino plus on 12/20/2013 12:38:23 MST Print View

Got the Rab Neutrino Plus in M and L now - but it's quite hard to decide which one to take.

Overall the quality is great, this will be a very convenient jacket for my purpose

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: neutrino plus on 12/20/2013 12:52:07 MST Print View

Probaly best to go with the one that has plenty of room for extra layers.