Better Esbit Ti Folding Stove idea
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Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: snow peak ti bowl 5" X 3" 1.8 oz. on 04/03/2013 18:34:24 MDT Print View

I concur. My bowl is 1.8 oz. also.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/03/2013 18:37:31 MDT Print View

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Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/23/2013 10:23:19 MDT.

Steven Paris
(saparisor) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: snow peak ti bowl 5" X 3" 1.8 oz. on 04/03/2013 19:57:24 MDT Print View

I just reweighed my Ti bowl. It just flicked over to 1.9 ounces.

I hate you guys.

Jon Fong
(jonfong) - F - M

Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR
Re: Couple ideas on 04/04/2013 08:58:25 MDT Print View

It seems to me like you may be putting the cart before the horse. There can be a fuel efficiency difference between small and skinny mugs verses short and squat mugs. Since your objective is to design an Esbit stove for the best fuel efficiency, testing on something wide like the K-Mart grease pot would be prudent. Once the design is tested and validated, then switch to a mug or the Snow Peak bowl and see if the results transfer. My guess is that a good windscreen will also be required. My 2 cents - Jon.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/04/2013 09:59:25 MDT Print View

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Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/23/2013 10:14:06 MDT.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/04/2013 10:08:37 MDT Print View

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Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/23/2013 09:16:27 MDT.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Esbit characteristics on 04/04/2013 11:06:37 MDT Print View

I recall reading that one of the issues with building Esbit holders is allowing for a little liquified fuel around the tab and that this was one of the strengths of the Gram Cracker style. Any thoughts?

Also, I've always thought the wing stoves were too low. Does anyone have any experience or data on an optimal height for a Esbit stove? The designs vary quite a bit.

I assume most of the older designs were tilted to packing efficiency. The original folding stove design incorporated fuel storage and cheap wartime mass production and warming canned rations rather than boiling. The Ti wing stoves are lightened versions of an older steel design that I believe had a military origin. In other words, not optimal designs for fuel use and/or boiling times.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Esbit on 04/04/2013 11:33:45 MDT Print View

Can't speak for the history of the ti wing design but overall Esbit's cooking systems do not make best use of their fuel. I have one of their integrated kits and it's very disappointing from a weight and fuel efficiency perspective.

They advertise .5oz of fuel to boil 16oz of water. My experience has been that .5oz is overkill but I'm having a hard time getting the job done with .25oz. Maybe .375oz is the magic number? Still shooting for .25 oz of fuel though this may be ambitious for an UL kit.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Question of the day on 04/04/2013 11:34:44 MDT Print View

Are we an Esbit cult?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Esbit characteristics on 04/04/2013 11:44:09 MDT Print View

"Does anyone have any experience or data on an optimal height for a Esbit stove?"

I use a titanium wing stove. I've tried some variations. What seems important is that the Esbit cube be insulated away from the cold earth, and that intake air gets to it from slightly below. Those conditions are met in the wing stove, since the Esbit cube is held a fraction of an inch above the earth. I've also built Esbit burners where the cube is held much higher, like 2 inches, and that doesn't seem to accomplish anything. I feel that the major dimension to be concerned with is from the burning cube to the pot bottom, but even that can vary depending on whether you are trying to get fuel efficiency, cooking speed, or whatever.

Many years ago I had a steel wing stove. It was OK, up to a point. The steel center pin rusted out, then the whole thing fell apart. However, titanium doesn't rust.

--B.G.--

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Esbit on 04/04/2013 11:57:38 MDT Print View

"Can't speak for the history of the ti wing design but overall Esbit's cooking systems do not make best use of their fuel."

Think about it. That is Esbit's marketing strategy. Get the user to burn up their special fuel faster, so that promotes more fuel sales. Also, the Esbit systems are optimized for Esbit fuel cubes, so you are unlikely to burn something else in there.

Let's spin this around the other way. Just suppose that there was a special Esbit cube that had roughly twice the cooking energy. Either it would go for twice as long or else boil water much faster, and it was in the same half-ounce cube. You would pay more for it, wouldn't you? How much more? Everybody would easily pay 10% more for it. A few people would pay 25% more for it. Would you pay 100% more for it?

--B.G.--

Robert Kelly
(QiWiz) - MLife

Locale: UL gear @ QiWiz.net
How much Esbit do you need? on 04/04/2013 12:38:22 MDT Print View

@ Ian "They advertise .5oz of fuel to boil 16oz of water. My experience has been that .5oz is overkill but I'm having a hard time getting the job done with .25oz. Maybe .375oz is the magic number? Still shooting for .25 oz of fuel though this may be ambitious for an UL kit."

I use Esbit quite often on extended trips. I am usually using a Caldera Cone with a 900 ml Evernew squat pot. I find that with this setup, I can heat up, but not boil 2 cups of water with a half tab (for coffee and hot cereal in the morning, for example). I like to put the bottom of my pot 1.5" above the top of my Esbit tab, but have not done any extensive testing of this. For my typical dinner (4 cups of water for 2 cups of tea and rehydrating/cooking a meal), I find that 1.5 tabs works well. I pour off my two cups of water for tea when the water is hot but not yet a rolling boil, then have enough heat left to bring things to a boil and even simmer a minute or two before it goes into the cozy. So 2 tabs or 1 oz of Esbit a day works well for my basic needs, with a couple extra tabs carried for extra hot drinks as needed.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: Esbit characteristics on 04/04/2013 13:11:52 MDT Print View

"I feel that the major dimension to be concerned with is from the burning cube to the pot bottom, but even that can vary depending on whether you are trying to get fuel efficiency, cooking speed, or whatever."

I was totally talking about fuel-to-pot differences, assuming that there was adequate air supply. Four Dogs has gone into airflow issues and developed a fan-blade like cut in the bottom of the burner to aid combustion.

Note that the Esbit folding stove and the flat sheet metal emergency stove have slot vents around the cube (I don't get the arrows in the illustration)

Esbit emergency stove

I use a wing stove to make hot drinks, but I was never to worried about efficiency. The question begs to be asked and I'm sure we would see the same sort of issues as with alcohol and canister stoves on flame pattern and height. As far as windscreen design, I doubt there is much better than a cone, but I would prefer something dead simple that would drop inside the pot.

I wonder if louver style vents would help draw air in and up to the pot? A DIY builder could sculpt depressions in a block of wood to hammer aluminum flashing into to create the shapes. That should require just a simple cut in the metal to start the vent opening.

Or how about a tiny low speed fan under the burner, like an electronics cooling fan with the revolutions turned down?

Small fan

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/04/2013 14:23:56 MDT Print View

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Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/23/2013 09:15:57 MDT.

Jon Fong
(jonfong) - F - M

Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR
Unlikely to boil 2 cups of water with ½ tablet of Esbit on 04/04/2013 14:26:50 MDT Print View

Well, I thought that I would sit down and look at the numbers and compare methanol to Esbit. I took the Stored Energy values from zenstoves.net. I can boil 4 cups of 70 F water using 30 ml of DA. From this spreadsheet it says that 1 tablet of Esbit has 93% of the stored energy of 30 ml of methanol.

Esbit methanol


Then I scaled the energy and would estimate that you could get up to about 202 F with Esbit. Of course, this is assuming that the stove efficiencies are the same. Again, this is all just number crunching but it seems reasonable (of course, my math may not be correct). On a good day, I can get 4 cups of 70F water up to just short of 190 F. Maybe there is a way to design an Esbit stove that is more efficient than an alcohol stove. My 2 cents - Jon

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/04/2013 15:26:46 MDT Print View

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Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/11/2013 12:46:34 MDT.

Jon Fong
(jonfong) - F - M

Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR
Re: Esbit Math using calories: 43.36 KCals needed for this project on 04/04/2013 15:44:40 MDT Print View

Keep in mind that a good alcohol stove runs in the 55 to 60% efficiency. +80% sets the bar pretty high. My 2 cents - Jon

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/04/2013 16:42:14 MDT Print View

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Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/23/2013 09:15:24 MDT.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Frankenstein Cook kit: 65% efficient on 04/04/2013 17:10:44 MDT Print View

"Sign me up for the esbit cult, but only if there's a discount on bulk fuel purchases :)"

I'm still looking for a place to buy it by the pallet.

--B.G.--

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/05/2013 06:51:04 MDT Print View

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Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/11/2013 12:41:41 MDT.