Hello. I recently purchased a ULA Circuit. The stuff sack for my WM Versalite is 16" long, way too wide for the ~10" I have at the base of my Circuit. I'm thinking about buying a smaller, waterproof stuff sack. After searching through the forums here, it seems like most people just shove their bag at the bottom of the pack. But it seems like I'd want to keep it dry, clean, and safe from abrasions in a separate sack. I'd love to hear feedback on whether a stuff sack is a good idea and recommendations on makes/models. Thanks.

Sean:

In the olden days, I used to have dedicated stuff sacks for my bag, pad and clothing. But after doing comparisons with vs. without them, I found that I actually save pack space by not using stuff sacks:

1. Pad - I fold the pad in half length-wise, then into thirds to approx. the size of my pack back -- and slide the pad in flat. This saves space and also allows the pad to further stiffen the backpack -- making for more comfortable carrying.

2. Bag - Next, I stuff my sleeping bag directly into my pack. If rain or river crossings figure in the picture, then first line the pack with a giant trash bag (aka contractor bag) -- then pack as normal.

3. Clothing - I then stuff my clothing into the pack -- esp. cramming the smaller pieces into the pack's nooks and crannies.

Rarely are we able to ditch gear pieces and end up not just saving weight, but also saving packing time and effort -- and increasing pack space and efficiency as well! Never again, will I do something so unproductive as wrestling a bag into a teeny tiny stuff sack at the break of dawn with cold and half-stiff fingers -- only to lose instead of gain packing space!

Edited by ben2world on 03/13/2013 22:50:11 MDT.

Sean, when you hear about people shoving their bag into their pack, 98% of the time they also use a waterproof pack liner.

As per your question, I think it depends on how you like to pack. For me, I usually like an ultralight dry sack, like a cuben one. Sea to Summit makes good light ones in sil. That way I know that no matter what, my down bag is safe.

However, I just got a Catalyst and have been playing around with how I pack, and might be moving to a liner. Certain packs seem to lend themselvrs to being packed differently.

Play with many different ideas there's no right/wrong/better/worse way. But I'd suggest that no matter what you pick, make sure your insulating pieces (bag, puffy, etc) are very well protected from water.

I use a Granite Gear compression bag if I need to get a sleeping bag in a smaller pack. I think compression sacks need to be used sparingly and with discretion so the loft isn't destroyed. Avoid trying to create a black hole! The current version is an Air Compressor: http://www.granitegearstore.com/Air-Compressor-P145C52.aspx

My preference is to use a waterproof silnylon stuff sack and just roll it down as far as practical.

If you get a lot of rain in your area the way I do, you should go with a light weight ultra-sil dry bag for your SB. The So-Cal folks can get away with a trash bag but that has never worked for me. I've found that keeping clothes and sleeping bag in a single bag (trash bag or dry bag) was a problem in heavy rain. The sleeping bag would get damp when I accessed the clothes (from rain, wet hands, drippy rain jacket). I now carry my spare clothes in one small dry sack and my sleeping bag in another small-ish dry sack and that has worked very well for me. The dry bag with my sleeping bag in it never gets opened up until it is in my shelter.

Personally, I've been using a small trash bag. Put trash bag in bottom of pack, stuff sleeping bag into trash bag. Smash it down as small as possible and work out all the air, then just twist and tie an overhand knot in the trash bag. Fill the rest of the pack with all the other junk.
If rain is the worst I'm worried about, then I'll just twist the trash bag real good and let the weight of my other stuff hold it closed and waterproof.

Granite gear cuben event dry bags.

There does become a point where if low pack volume is desired then you must compress your sleeping bag. Stuffing it in the bottom can sometimes take up too much volume from it continually lofting up.

I just use a pack liner and stuff my quilt loose in the bottom of my pack. Like Ben, I've found that I'm able to pack more efficiently without stuff sacks. In a sense my pack liner acts like a 1.5 oz stuff sack that's large enough to fit all of my gear. Usually I put my sleeping bag in the bottom, my clothes on top, and roll the bag shut. They I put my cook kit, food, and shelter on top to keep it closed.

Adam

Sorry, double post.

Adam

Edited by aroth87 on 03/14/2013 02:47:19 MDT.

> keep it dry, clean, and safe from abrasions in a separate sack.
Right on!
Ours go first into a plain fabric stuff sack - same material as the shell. Then into a plastic bag inside a silnylon stuff sack. That may sound like serious overkill, but when your pack goes swimming in a big river the value becomes a little clearer.

Ditto for all other 'warm' gear.

Cheers

I like the eVent bottom Granite Gear ones. Waterproof with roll top. The breathable bottom helps with compression.

"Sean, when you hear about people shoving their bag into their pack, 98% of the time they also use a waterproof pack liner. "

Right, this. I use a cuben pack liner from Zpacks in my Circuit. My 30-F bag just gets shoved into the bottom of the liner, with my clothing bag on top and my ditty bag, then the liner gets rolled over and closed.

For my winter bag I use a Granite Gear compression stuff sack so I can fit my 5-F bag inside my Circuit. Works fine for a weekend hike, but I expect I would run out of room for food on a longer hike and thus need a larger pack.

I hace to use a compression bag for my winter sleeping bag, It means I can use a 60ltr pack.

I have a fairly light stuff sack which is oversized for my quilt. It protects my quilt but still allows for me to mold it around gear in the bottom of my ruck. I've tried the compression systems and I felt that it was an inefficient use of space.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Does the use of an internal pack liner negate the need for a proper external pack cover?

Are there significant pros/cons to the different materials: silnylon, eVent, cuben? If purchasing cuben, does it makes sense to spend a bit more and have the pack made out of cuben? Of course, this cost can be avoided with the trash liner idea.

>Does the use of an internal pack liner negate the need for a proper external pack cover?

Yes and no. If used properly, a pack liner will keep everything inside of it dry, even if the pack is soaked. However, a soaked pack weighs more--possibly more than a very light pack cover--and anything not in the liner will get wet. This may or may not be of concern to you depending on your packing style.

Cuben is lightest and absolutely waterproof, but expensive. Sil is much cheaper and plenty waterproof for a pack liner and cheaper. Event is heavier and more expensive than sil, and not really needed for a liner.

A properly made cuben pack can be waterproof enough for rain, but I still would use another liner or drybags if you're going to be packrafting or crossing many deep streams. There are some packs that are essentially a big dry bag, so you'd be pretty good with one of those.

I use a trash bag for the liner and have never had any issues. However, I need to clarify that the trash bag is a trash compactor bag. It is much thicker and more durable than an ordinary trash bag.

Rodney

I went looking for trash compactor bags and my local Stop N' Shop didn't carry them.

:(

My e-Vent 35L pack liner from Sea to Summit weighs an ounce or so more than a trash bag, but I find both a pain to use. I keep it around for wet weather but don't use it unless I'm sure they'll be some.

By the way, if I'm not using a stuff sack for my sleeping bag, should I also avoid using a stuff stack for my Exped Downmat UL 7? It's a pain in the ass to get that thing back in the bag.

I have used baking bags recently and prefer them over compactor bags. They are available at local groceries. For me, there are several advantages. First, they are clear and you can see your stuff. Second, they are smaller; a compactor bag is bigger than I need. Third, it feels lighter; I should weigh it to confirm. Fourth, it feels more durable subjectively. Fifth, it has a slippery feel so it slides better in the pack.

@ Sean, who wrote, "By the way, if I'm not using a stuff sack for my sleeping bag, should I also avoid using a stuff stack for my Exped Downmat UL 7? It's a pain in the ass to get that thing back in the bag."

By ditching the pad stuff sack -- you save effort, save time, save weight -- and actually increase packing efficiency! Just let the air out, fold down flat more or less to the size of your backpack -- slip into your backpack -- then pack over it -- starting with your bag, and then your clothing, etc.

Again, if rain or river crossing -- play it safe. Use a liner first -- then pack normal as described above.

Sean, you say you're using an Exped down mat. If you have or use the Exped dry bag schnozzle pump, it makes a pretty good sleeping bag pack liner. I put my sleeping bag, down sweater and anything else I want protected from water in the schnozzle bag, then either just fold over the top if I'm expecting a dry day, letting the weight of the rest of my gear compress the down, or if I'm expecting a wet day, I roll down the top in dry bag fashion.

These are awesome drybags, there made of 15d. And pretty cheap.

also I use a 20L for my down bag and clothing, it best to get it way oversized so it conforms to every crack in your pack.

I dont even seal it, there is enough excess to just fold it over and put the rest of my gear on top of it to compress it.

Edited by bubonicplay on 03/15/2013 19:19:58 MDT.

As Stephen mentions the Exped Snozzle is great, It makes a nice pillow also.

If carrying my winter bag I end having to use a Sea To Summit event compression sack as its so bloody big.

Edited by stephenm on 03/15/2013 19:16:51 MDT.

I found that compression sacks are great on paper, but in real life application do not work well most of the time. I ended up getting rid of all of mine.

However, I still like the idea of protecting my gear, so I use an oversized STS bag so that it will conform more to the corners and nooks in my pack.

Stephen, great idea on the exped schnozzle. Not sure if the WM versalite will fit but I will check. I could then put the Downmat UL7 at the bottom of my bag and then use the pumpbag as a sack for my sleeping bag and place that next. Will try this on my next trip.

While I use a pack liner, I MYOG stuff sack to fit the pack. This way I get the most amount of pressure for the pack to fit in my lumbar curve. Often I will still have to stuff additional items on the other side of the sb to get the bottom filled out (depends on the size of the sleeping bag.

I oversize the stuff sacks I make compared to what the manufacturer supplies. I still can't believe how small the stuff sack was that came with my wifes Helium.

I make mine out of cuben, and the design is from Ray Jardine's Beyond Backpacking. It has a collar that can be twisted and tucked in to make the stuff sack water proof.

Steve

Hi Sean,

My WM Alpinelite packs down quiet small inside it along with a lightweight down parka.

I am old-fashioned, I suppose, in terms of a "Be Prepared" mentality based in having been in hard weather or other situations and so I try to balance wisdom with lightweight. Wisdom and a predilection for an old pack.

So, I use "waterproof" silnylon stuff sacks for my down bag, my down puffy and my "ditty bag". I carry my other clothing pressed flat in slippery, clear gallon ziplocks that keep dry clothes dry and wet clothes from affecting the rest of the pack and then utilize a trash-compactor bag and construction string for my pack cover in rain. My pack has been sprayed with a silicone analog to Scotch-Guard, and it beads water if wet.

A liner-bag doesn't work well for my system, because my pack has six distinct compartments, but the tried-and-true systemic approach to gear management has kept my gear dry in extended rains, after a dropped pack in the river that resulted in what must have been 80 plus lbs of weight to pull out of the water when I got to it and in fair weather where the simple organization and ability to press-out air from clothes makes for easy packing, finding and moving of gear from pack to tent, etc...

In terms of the stuff sacks, I think those E-Vent bottomed sacks are super cool and have been lusting for them, but I've been satisfied with the Sea-To-Summit silnylon bags which are available in different volumes for jackets, bags and etc... For the small stuff, the "waterproof nylon" bags sold in the 3-pack at Walmart for ten bucks have been great. 3 sizes and colors in one pack, with roll-tops.

"In terms of the stuff sacks, I think those E-Vent bottomed sacks are super cool..."

+1

I use a Large to hold my Helium, puffy jacket, sleeping socks, etc. When closed but not compressed it completely fills my Ohm. As I lean on it the air goes out and I can squish it into the bottom of the pack. As I load in more, the stuff settles in to the bag and squishes out more air. I end up with a very compact bottom layer, with no voids or hollows. Every bit of space is filled/used.

Edited by greg23 on 03/19/2013 07:51:46 MDT.