Subscribe Contribute Advertise Facebook Twitter Instagram Forums Newsletter
Recent Developments in Canister Stoves
Display Avatars Sort By:
Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Effect of HE pot on FMS-300t? on 03/15/2013 12:59:25 MDT Print View

... a flat bottomed pot will provide a certain shape flame, but my guess is that a HE pot will provide different shape flame
In all probability you are right (some wider HE pots might have no change).

...is this better, or worse, or makes no difference?
That's what we don't know until we've experimented a bit. It think it will vary by pot. For example, a narrow HE pot like the Jetboil will certainly affect the flame pattern but a wide pot like a 2.1L Primus HE pot will probably have no effect at all. Will those pots that affect the flame pattern have a positive or negative impact? That remains to be seen.

Whilst FM and others are selling HE pots are they intended for the Hornet or for other burners is my question?
Unknown at this time (but a very good question).

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Piezo on these stoves? on 03/16/2013 00:32:18 MDT Print View

Hi Jim

I have one of those (exact) ignitors, but it is branded Kovea. I wonder where MSR got theirs ... :-)

And I found the spark was barely adequate to light a stove at sea level.

Cheers

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: Piezo on these stoves? on 03/16/2013 00:56:31 MDT Print View

"And I found the spark was barely adequate to light a stove at sea level."

It probably needs new batteries ;)

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Piezo on these stoves? on 03/16/2013 07:24:50 MDT Print View

I have one of those (exact) ignitors, but it is branded Kovea. I wonder where MSR got theirs... :-)
Indeed, they do look "somewhat" similar, don't they?


I found the spark was barely adequate to light a stove at sea level.
Interesting. I've had good success up to 8000'/2400m (haven't tried it higher). I found that it worked will with a fairly "concentrated" burner head like on a MicroRocket but significantly less well on a broader like an Optimus Crux.

With the MicroRocket, I would stick the tip of the ignition into one of the "corners" formed by the little "windscreen" on the top of the burner head. So long as I put the tip into the "pocket" that the corner of the windscreen offered I had nearly 100% successful ignitions.

With the Optimus Crux (and similar burner heads), I found I had to tilt the burner head downward and then apply the ignition to the downhill side. Butane and propane are heavier than air, so I assume that the concentration of gas is slightly higher on the downhill side. This is a bit counter-intuitive (at least to me) since one would expect to need more oxygen not more gas at higher elevations, but I found that by tilting the burner head to slightly increase the concentration of gas, I was able to get a far higher 80+ percent success rate with a wide burner head.

That said, I find myself leaving it mostly at home. It's just one more piece of gear to carry. I'm going to carry a butane lighter anyway, and it doesn't take much butane to light a stove.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Curt Peterson
(curtpeterson) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Recent Developments in Canister Stoves on 03/16/2013 11:08:15 MDT Print View

"And I found the spark was barely adequate to light a stove at sea level."

I tried one of these a couple weekends ago on a 2 day trip with the Gnat. Didn't work even one time. I tried multiple flame levels and tinkered with it quite a bit. Nothing. I got it replaced but haven't tried out the new one yet. Hard to count on it at this point based on first usage....

T N
(tordnado) - MLife

Locale: Europe
Msr/kovea seperate igniter on 03/16/2013 16:22:54 MDT Print View

Tanks for the input on the igniters however they do not appeal to me at all!

They look as heavy as à mini bic.
They are not attached to the stove with screws.
Based on the feedback they are pretty useless at lighting a stove!!

I was talking about à standard piezo (preferably made as light as possible). My experience from SOL and à Kovea is that they work great. (I dont have much altitude here). If you know that you are going to an area with high altitude you just unscrew it and bring whatever you prefer for lighting.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Recent Developments in Canister Stoves on 03/16/2013 17:49:16 MDT Print View

I tried one of these a couple weekends ago on a 2 day trip with the Gnat. Didn't work even one time. I tried multiple flame levels and tinkered with it quite a bit. Nothing. I got it replaced but haven't tried out the new one yet. Hard to count on it at this point based on first usage...
That's exactly the kind of burner head the Kovea/MSR piezo struggles with. The Gnat's burner head is almost an exact copy of the Optimus Crux's burner head. I had to tilt it over about 45 degrees and then apply the ignition to the downhill side.

Works well on a small burner head. Doesn't in my experience work well on a wide burner head.

BTW, it also works pretty well on alcohol stoves -- if you're getting good vaporization (i.e. in warmer weather). In colder weather when the alcohol is struggling to vaporize, it's tough to get the alcohol to light.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Piezo on these stoves? on 03/16/2013 19:49:53 MDT Print View

Since I always bring a mini Bic and a book of matches on every trip, a built-in piezo lighter would be redundant and unnecessary weight. I have never bought a stove with a built-in lighter.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Piezo on these stoves? on 03/16/2013 23:41:06 MDT Print View

Yeah, but if you've got a windscreen that is suspended from the pot it is so nice to set everything up, turn on the gas, and push a button to light. On a lot of such set ups, there's no way to get a match or a lighter in there once things are set up.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

T N
(tordnado) - MLife

Locale: Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Piezo on these stoves? on 03/17/2013 13:37:24 MDT Print View

If you had a stove with piezo the idea (for me at least) is to leave one of the other two out. So you would not have any additional redundancy.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Piezo on these stoves? on 03/17/2013 15:04:02 MDT Print View

Hi Jim

Yeah but ...

I have serious reservations about hanging windscreens from the pot. I can't help thinking that the exhaust gases are going to be a bit choked, which may lead to more CO production.

Also, thinking about the typical piezo ignitor, I would have thought that if you can get your hand to the piezo button on the column of the stove, you could equally get a Bic lighter in there.

Of course, I may be missing a whole lot of things.

Cheers

steven franchuk
(Surf)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Windscreens on 03/17/2013 16:30:50 MDT Print View

"The one that sits on the radiation shield is very similar to the one I remember being described on this site. You are right, the bowl one is also very good. They both are quite similar, in that they form a barrier between the heat source and the canister. I would think they would make things safer."

A radiation shield is potentially very dangerous. Radiation from the flames is normally not a big source of heat to the canister. Conduction however is. If you fully enclose the stove burner, the burner could get very very hot. That heat would then conduct down the stove to the valve body and then to the canister.

In at least one case the heat conducted down the stove body got the lindal valve hot enough that the valve actually melted:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=65243

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Windscreens on 03/18/2013 04:30:03 MDT Print View

Yes, windscreens should be very carefully used on toppers. Anything that will potentially hold or conduct heat to the canister can be bad with no control system in place to regulate that heat cunducted to heat sensitive components. The whole thing is a bit kludgy in my book. Toppers are, perhaps, one of the lightest stoves out there, but they are also prone to user modifications.

The external stoves, however, do not suffer from this. With any type of adequate air flow, only the fuel line would be vulnerable to heating/potential damage, even at relatively high heats (~200C or so.) This is far safer, it removes the fuel from the heating area. It is also heavier to build such a stove, as we know...

Anyway, things do not add up to me. Canisters of mixed fuels do NOT necessarily HAVE to have the super high pressure containment Roger so casually dismissed.
Propane is propane and has a gas pressure. Using pure propane is obviously dangerous in the light duty canisters used for camping fuels. Why doesn't the addition of 15-30% propane cause a dangerous situation just as 100% propane does? Acetylene has a very high gas pressure, yet we use it all the time as cutting/brazing torches at quite a bit lower pressure than has been indicated. This is because it is disolved in benzene or similar materials reducing the internal tank gas pressure. The same way that isobutane (or butane) reduces the internal gas pressure for our canisters...not that I am advocating acetylene as a prefered camping fuel, I am just saying there are facts we are missing when we talk about canister fuels, in general. The boiling point of the mix is also lowered. For example, freezing ethynol and water will drop the freezing point considerably below the freezing point of water, alone. 'Corse we are not interested in freezing points, but it also reduces the boiling point as any moonshiner will tell you. Adding ~25% propane to butane causes a reduction in overall canister pressure compared with 100% propane. The form a system at any temperature/pressure.

As far as HE pots effecting the flame pettern on the 300t, no doubt it will. This is relativly unimportant. What IS important is the mixing of sufficient air to cause complete combustion (low CO) and purging exhaust gasses(and heat) from the flame. Since a fairly high heat is required to produce CO, soaking the heat up into the "fins" would further reduce CO production. This would be facilitated by the HE pots, so I tend to think nothing would happen to the flame even if it did change shape, and, you would simply realize the better efficiency of the heat exchange.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Thanks Roger; Best current and upcoming winter stove? on 03/18/2013 22:41:42 MDT Print View

Roger, this is a great read - still have to finish it. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and recent research. I have Coleman Powermax Xtreme stoves for winter, but will run out of cartridges at some point (being way too busy at work this winter has preserved our stock for now). What is your current top pick for remote winter canister stove with preheat tube other than the Coleman Xtreme stove, and when do you think a new top contender might become available?

Wish some manufacture would revive the Coleman Xtreme style cartridges and fuel.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Reaching out to Sievert of Sweden and stove companies on 03/18/2013 22:44:57 MDT Print View

Anyone reach out to Sievert of Sweden and any of the above-mentioned stove companies with user feedback for the ultimate lightweight and dependable winter stove? I'd imagine they'd be interested in our input.

steven franchuk
(Surf)
Re: Windscreens on 03/19/2013 00:12:01 MDT Print View

"Why doesn't the addition of 15-30% propane cause a dangerous situation just as 100% propane does? Acetylene has a very high gas pressure, yet we use it all the time as cutting/brazing torches at quite a bit lower pressure than has been indicated. This is because it is disolved in benzene or similar materials reducing the internal tank gas pressure. The same way that isobutane (or butane) reduces the internal gas pressure for our canisters...not that I am advocating acetylene as a preferred camping fuel, I am just saying there are facts we are missing when we talk about canister fuels, in general. The boiling point of the mix is also lowered. For example, freezing ethynol and water will drop the freezing point considerably below the freezing point of water, alone. 'Corse we are not interested in freezing points, but it also reduces the boiling point as any moonshiner will tell you. Adding ~25% propane to butane causes a reduction in overall canister pressure compared with 100% propane. The form a system at any temperature/pressure."

James you can get vapor pressures for various butane propane mixed from this site:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/mb_post_form.html?po=reply&note_id=639313&forum_thread_id=74642

At 40F the vapor pressure for:
100% butane 3.1psi
70% butane / 30% propane 21.5psi
50% butane / 50 propane 32.4psi
30% butane / 70% propane 46psi

According to the line there are no conditions where adding propane to butane cuases a pressure drop. Pressure always increases. At 110F the pressure in a canister of 100% propane will be 4 times higher than the pressure in a canister with 100% butane. The temperature in a car in the desert can easily exceed 130F in a hot desert location.

If you increase the pressure by adding propane you need to use thicker, stronger metal, and or change the shape of the canister to insure it doesn't rupture in your car.

"Acetylene has a very high gas pressure, yet we use it all the time as cutting/brazing torches at quite a bit lower pressure than has been indicated. "

For cutting or brazing you need the correct flame temperature, the correct air fuel mixture and enough fuel flow to do the job. Canister pressure only effects the flow. And the flow needed is typically very low. this means the pressure necessary to get the needed flow is typically but not always very low.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Thanks Roger; Best current and upcoming winter stove? on 03/19/2013 01:05:58 MDT Print View

Hi EJ

> What is your current top pick for remote winter canister stove with preheat tube
> other than the Coleman Xtreme stove
Probably either the Kovea Spider or the Fire Maple FMS-118, if you stick with screw-thread canisters.

> and when do you think a new top contender might become available?
Soon, soon...

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Reaching out to Sievert of Sweden and stove companies on 03/19/2013 01:06:46 MDT Print View

> Anyone reach out to Sievert of Sweden
Yeah, but they weren't interested in this market.

Cheers

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Windscreens on 03/19/2013 04:19:07 MDT Print View

Yeah, I think you might be reading that backwards.
I wrote:
"Adding ~25% propane to butane causes a reduction in overall canister pressure compared with 100% propane.

Yeah, never claimed to be a writer, poor syntax, I guess.

This is simply bourn out by the charts/numbers.

Adding small amounts of a solvent (benzene/acetylene in my poor example, all that I am really familiar with) can reduce the overall canister pressure significantly, of course it does reduce the overall flow rate, but, flow out of a canister is not a real problem except in winter. Propane would solve that, except for the pressure. Perhaps a small volume of other flamible gas will reduce that by providing a lower disolution pressure than current mixes of gasses.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Thanks Roger; Best current and upcoming winter stove? on 03/19/2013 12:46:10 MDT Print View

"> and when do you think a new top contender might become available?

Soon, soon..."

Waiting For Godot.

--B.G.--