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Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Piezo-electric lighters don't work at 12,000 feet? on 03/14/2013 03:22:37 MDT Print View

> I've had piezoelectric lighters fail as low as 7500'/2280m in cold windy weather.
> I forget the technical explanation but it's something about the density of the air
> being too low to transmit enough energy to bring the gas to ignition.
The energy in the spark from a piezo is barely adequate to ignite the fuel/air mix even at sea level. More energy is needed at altitude to light the gas, for techie reasons.

But a Bic flint lighter seems to always work for me.

Cheers

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Piezo-electric lighters don't work at 12,000 feet? on 03/14/2013 07:08:22 MDT Print View

> More energy is needed at altitude to light the gas, for techie reasons.

Butane lighters have a jet, just like a stove. At altitude the air is much less dense, so the air/fuel ratio is not the same as at sea level. As the chart below shows, once the air/fuel ratio strays from the optimum MUCH more energy is required to ignite the mixture, more energy than is provided by the spark from a piezo. A hot chip of ferrocerium may provide more energy.

Ignition Energy

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Piezo-electric lighters don't work at 12,000 feet? on 03/14/2013 10:15:49 MDT Print View

Stuart,

Thank you for that. I think you've put up that diagram before, but I wasn't remembering the explanation last night.

It's not that the thinner air can't transmit the spark; it's that the thinner air changes the fuel/air mix and the spark is then insufficient to ignite the mix. Got it, and thank you.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/14/2013 12:31:51 MDT Print View

One of the things that should not be missed here is the advantage that an integrated ignition brings when using a suspended windscreen, something like this:

(this is a windscreen photo from another thread here at BPL.)

It it can be hard to reach in with a lighter, and you might knock the windscreen out of alignment. I really like being able to have everything set up, pot in place, and then I just push the button to get the stove going. I found that very convenient, not to mention efficient: The time from ignition to the time you get the pot in place is wasted fuel. With an ignition, my pot is in place from the beginning.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/28/2013 01:22:18 MDT Print View

Don't know if this has been posted before but I saw this pic in the 2012 SOTO Japan catalog. It is a cutaway of the micro regulator valve.


SOTO MR VALVE

Typical needle valve for comparison .

Needle Valve

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/28/2013 09:40:12 MDT Print View

Very interesting. Thank you for that, Rick.

And, to my mind, all the more reason to doubt that there's any "magic" in one means of holding back the gas vs. another (in terms of cold weather performance). That's really all a valve of either type does: It holds back the gas. The Lindal valve in a canister of gas is essentially just a very sophisticated hole in the canister. The stove with it's valve plugs into the hole. Absent a valve, the gas would rush out uncontrolled. All the valve does is hold back the gas. Open up the valve, and the gas rushes out to the degree that there is pressure in the canister. The valve is a means of restriction only. The valve can hold back what pressure there is; it cannot create pressure.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/28/2013 11:23:15 MDT Print View

Thank you Rick. It's easy to understand why the Soto has the ability to regulate the low pressure during cold weather. The typycal needle valve will let the fuel "gush" out with 1/2 turn of the valve. It does not have the precise control over the low pressure.

If I recall, the Soto has 6 turns of the handle for full open. Now that's a lot of control. And that's the "magic" of the Soto.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/28/2013 15:01:04 MDT Print View

> the Soto has 6 turns of the handle for full open.
That is entirely a function of the angle of the needle valve. Many stoves are designed to only need a 1/4 turn. Some of the recent Asian stoves need several turns to get full power. There's no magic, just what marketing thinks the user would prefer. Me, I prefer a couple of turns.

Cheers

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/28/2013 16:27:50 MDT Print View

BTW, there was another interesting "feature" example shown in the catalog where they have side-by-side pics of a common needle valve stove "accidently" tipped over on its side engulfed in a fireball and the Soto Micro Regulator stove tipped over but still burning normally. The caption read the Micro Regulator makes the stove a little safer in case of accident by controlling the release of the liquid fuel. The footnote to the caption seems to say it just buys you some time to get the stove turned off safely before it too succumbs.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/28/2013 16:52:23 MDT Print View

the Micro Regulator makes the stove a little safer in case of accident by controlling the release of the liquid fuel.
Hmm. Not sure I'd want to experiment with that!

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/28/2013 19:39:02 MDT Print View

Roger, this regulator is not your run-o-the mill needle valve type. It has the ability to micro manage your fuel at low pressure allowing better efficiency in cold weather.

Take another look at this beauty:

 photo 1c86fa85-546e-469a-a03d-40053f92b333_zps1ac769ed.jpg

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 01:14:01 MDT Print View

Hi Dan

You might like to read our article about pressure regulators. It was published some time ago.

Basically, that pressure regulator IS a needle valve, with some extra springs etc. All the magic properties ascribed to it are total BS, made up by the spin doctors to get you to hand over your wallet. Some of the claims are absurd; the rest are either stupid, irrelevant, or false.

I will add that the worst claims seem to have come from the distributors, not the SOTO company.

As far as efficiency goes - that is a function of the pot diameter and the user. Turn the stove up full bore and you get low efficiency. Old news.

Cheers
Roger Caffin (PhD, physics)

Edited by rcaffin on 03/29/2013 01:15:31 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 04:03:44 MDT Print View

"Basically, that pressure regulator IS a needle valve, with some extra springs etc. All the magic properties ascribed to it are total BS, made up by the spin doctors to get you to hand over your wallet. Some of the claims are absurd; the rest are either stupid, irrelevant, or false."

Isn't that truth!?

More stuff in that assembly to break or wear out.

I see a lot of gear/equipment/technology that is marketing-driven these days. KISS.

- Nick Gatel (PHD in Experience)

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 08:35:07 MDT Print View

Thank you roger. That says a lot.

Edited by zelph on 03/29/2013 11:03:04 MDT.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 09:32:21 MDT Print View

this regulator is not your run-o-the mill needle valve type. It has the ability to micro manage your fuel at low pressure allowing better efficiency in cold weather.
Actually, a regulator valve doesn't manage flow, at least not in the sense of say the way you could have a computer managed environmental control system in an office complex. The regulator valve is set by the user. The valve then just tries to maintain a constant flow. If the user sets the valve on high, then the results are constantly inefficient. :)

In other words, there is no optimization routine built into the valve. What you set is what you get -- so long as there is sufficient pressure in the canister to support that setting.

Soto hasn't made any claims that the valve will allow greater efficiency. There has been much bally-hoo that the stove is more effective, i.e. that the Soto MicroRegulator will be able to function well at colder temperatures than conventional needle valved stoves, but no one has claimed that the Soto MR is more efficient (uses less gas to get the same job done).

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 03/29/2013 09:40:36 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 10:30:34 MDT Print View

It seems like the stove has little to do with efficiency - it just lets out fuel. Maybe if there was too much or little air or the burner could cause incomplete burning.

The windscreen, pot, heat exchanger,... are what effect efficiency.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 10:51:09 MDT Print View

With canister stoves, that's pretty much true. Typically, how you use it has a lot more to do with efficiency than the stove itself (unless the stove is just utter junk). One of the most important things is the valve, but not needle versus regulator: Use it to turn the stove down. :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

The basics of fuel efficiency:
-Turn it down (use a lower flame)
-Use a windscreen (not a full 360 degree one with an upright stove though)
-Use a lid

Pot selection is also important. Wider is better. A heat exchanger pot is of course great, but heat exchangers do add weight. Supposedly darker colored pots add efficiency too, but compared to the other factors, I'm not sure that pot color is as much of a concern.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 13:09:47 MDT Print View

That makes sense that turning it down improves efficiency

I wonder at what point it's too low? It's constantly loosing heat, so the longer you take to boil, the more heat you're losing.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 14:56:15 MDT Print View

It's a regulator of beauty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ66oRH7cBA&feature=youtu.be

I believe everything SOTO says about it being more efficient. I suspect they have engineers with PhD's in just about everything. They sure do make great products.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: World's Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition on 03/29/2013 15:05:22 MDT Print View

Yeah, we have all seen that video. A masterpiece of spin doctoring and carefully designed BS. I could create exactly the same video effects myself with two identical stoves.

But everyone is free to believe what they want. It's a free world.

Cheers