Ultralight Kelly / Storm / Volcano Kettle
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Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Any news on this project? on 12/16/2008 21:42:06 MST Print View

> I got the necessary materials to convert the lathe to metal-spinning and to make my own spinning
> tools, and did so relatively easily despite my complete lack of experience.

Blimey! Just like that. Nothing like fanaticism!
I do a little metal spinning myself, but on a smaller scale. It is not easy! I am greatly impressed.

Aluminium: ask at the suppliers about what alloy they would recommend. There are some alloys which will be a right pain, but there are other Al alloys which are meant for bending and spinning. They 'flow' more easily.

Cheers

Devin Montgomery
(dsmontgomery) - MLife

Locale: one snowball away from big trouble
Re: Re: Re: Any news on this project? on 12/17/2008 12:39:56 MST Print View

>Blimey! Just like that.

:)

Yes, well that was certainly the longest and most difficult part of the project. I gave it the gloss so I didn't entirely bore everyone with the details, but "relatively easily" was, well, relative. Mostly it meant that I was actually able to do it and that I hadn't had any catastrophic failures in the process. I know that some people go crazy making spinning tools by hot forging them and everything, but I got the how-to on making the right kind of tool rest, combination spinning and planishing tool, and cutting tool from a video I rented from Smartflix.com (Netflicks for nerds, and an awesome resource). I shaped the tools themselves with a grinder and then sanded and polished the combination tool. You should have seen the looks my neighbors gave me as the sparks went flying!

>I do a little metal spinning myself

Cool, what have you worked on? As I started reading and watching this stuff on metal spinning I got really turned (no pun intended) on to it. It's still amazing to me that someone can form metal (what seems like such an alien, industrial process) on a simple wood lathe at home.

>Aluminium: ask at the suppliers about what alloy they would recommend.

Too right. My supplier has been McMaster-Carr and I've been consulting their metal suitability chart. So far I've been working with 3003 because it has good workability characteristics, is okay for use around food, is corrosion resistant, and is a bit stronger that 1100. At first, I was worried that the walls of the kettle would be weak, which is why I chose the 3003, but given the strength of my mock-up and that it's actually going to be pretty hard to get the metal as thin as I want, that may not be an issue. The 1100 is supposed to have even better working and anodizing (should I go that route later down the line) characteristics, so I may make the switch.

Thanks!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Any news on this project? on 12/17/2008 13:57:18 MST Print View

Hi Devin

I am NOT an expert on spinning, not at all! My efforts have been mainly with titanium in small sections. Some titanium alloys will form, while other will NOT. 6Al4V (usually in sheet form) will NOT, while 3Al2.5V and CP2 (often used in tubing) will.

I have been using a ball race as the spinning tool. A lot of force is needed with titanium.

As to what Al alloys: best consult a supplier. I got some sheet from a local sheet metal fab shop: they knew what the different alloys would do.

Cheers

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Re: Re: Re: Any news on this project? on 12/17/2008 14:10:24 MST Print View

Hi Devin,

Thanks for posting your MYOG metal spinning project I am finding it all very interesting, I have wanted to spin some pots for a while now.

I recently cut off a JetBoil PCS pot (anodized aluminum)and rolled a lip on it using my metal lathe and a ball bearing tool clamped in the tool holder it was not as successful as I had hoped.

I think will now try some real metal spinning.

Thanks for sharing.

Tony

Jan Rezac
(zkoumal) - MLife

Locale: Prague, CZ
RE: Ultralight Kelly / Storm / Volcano Kettle on 12/17/2008 21:02:56 MST Print View

I had an idea how to make such a kettle out of "recycled matrials" - aluminium gas canisters (the largest ones, like the one on the picture).

gas cartridge kettle

One canister, with the bottom removed, would be uused as the outer shell. Upper part of second one will make bottom of the kettle. The chimney would have to be made from something different, possibly some aluminum bottle.

With the edges overlapping as in the picture, it might be possible to weld them without making holes in the shell (hopefully, I have not much experience with welding).

Devin Montgomery
(dsmontgomery) - MLife

Locale: one snowball away from big trouble
Re: RE: Ultralight Kelly / Storm / Volcano Kettle on 12/18/2008 11:25:03 MST Print View

Roger - I think it's going to be quite some time before I have the cojones to try titanium, but that's very cool, even with small parts.

Hi Tony - It's very encouraging to have garnered the attention of you and Roger, two of the MYO greats! I think I saw your pictures of that pot somewhere around here. With your know-how and equipment, I'm quite sure you could make your own pot to whatever specs you like and then spot-weld on some shim stock for less than the price of a cannibalized jet-boil pot. I don't know how available the proper tools are in your neck of the woods, but I found the pre-made tools to be hard to find and very expensive. Like I wrote earlier, I leaned how to make mine from a video I rented, but if you PM me, I'd be glad to send you pictures of mine along with a diagram and brief instructions that would probably be enough to go on. I think my combination tool and trimmer together cost about $80 to make, but it would have been over $200 to buy them both.

Jan - that looks like just the kind of container I was looking for when I was aiming to make this out of off-the-shelf parts - I could only find aluminum bottles that were skinnier and taller than I really wanted. By all means, you should give that a shot. I'm just so far down the rabbit hole at this point that I can't turn back!

Thanks all!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: RE: Ultralight Kelly / Storm / Volcano Kettle on 12/18/2008 14:40:17 MST Print View

Hi Jan

VERY smart!
You could try a high temperature epoxy for the joins: the metal should not get much over 100 C because of the water on the inside. Well - it would let you experiment anyhow.

For the bottom - maybe you could use the existing metal bottom?

For the core: maybe some Al tubing? It might not need to be really sealed at the top at first?

Cheers

Daniel Fosse
(magillagorilla) - F

Locale: Southwest Ohio
Kelly Bowl on 12/19/2008 11:52:32 MST Print View

I had this idea in my head. Hope this drawing makes sense.
Kelly Bowl

I am by no stretch of the imagination a metal fabricator and have no real tools. I was thinking that you could use some aluminum or Ti bowls. The kettle would be more squat like a traditional tea kettle. This is a crude sketch. I guess it may need handles as well.

Edited by magillagorilla on 12/19/2008 12:43:14 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Kelly Bowl on 12/19/2008 14:20:55 MST Print View

Hi Daniel

Dunno, but I suspect not enough chimney height.

Cheers

Devin Montgomery
(dsmontgomery) - MLife

Locale: one snowball away from big trouble
For those interested... on 01/07/2009 10:40:40 MST Print View

I've almost finished new mandrels for the kettle. Over the holidays, I cut up some wood billets at my father-in-law's, and laminated them together for new mandrels that shouldn't warp. I also got my wife's permission to temporarily "close in" our balcony to stay warm. I've finished rough turning them, and I'm going to work on getting all the tolerances right after lunch (I'm on winter break from grad school). I've also adapted my metal spinning tool rest for the new lathe, so if all goes as planned, I should be able to start spinning the kettle tomorrow! (knock on wood)

Edited by dsmontgomery on 03/12/2010 09:15:05 MST.

Devin Montgomery
(dsmontgomery) - MLife

Locale: one snowball away from big trouble
Re: For those interested... on 02/04/2009 09:24:29 MST Print View

Update: Well, I guess I didn't knock hard enough...

I was able to spin the fire cup (the smallest part) the next day, and got a pretty good piece on my first try.




The outer wall and chimney were a different story. Without getting into it too much, the fact that they're longer and that their faces (the part that clamps the metal circle against the follower block) are narrower asks a lot more of the lathe setup. In this case, it was just too much for the wood-turning live center, and when I would apply pressure, both the mandrel and follower block would deflect making it impossible to shape the metal.

The only fix was a more rigid lathe and a true metal spinning live center. Luckily, I was able to find a Karle Spinmaster lathe, complete with live center, online (they don't make hobbyist size metal spinning lathes anymore, so this one was rare and an antique). It should be on its way to me as we speak, so once I get it all set up, I'll be able to make another attempt at those larger parts. What time I would have saved myself by starting with the right tools!

Edited by dsmontgomery on 02/04/2009 09:26:58 MST.

bret Cardwell
(megamustache) - F
Alternative to welding on 05/20/2009 01:42:38 MDT Print View

There are some products out there that allow brazing very thin AL. I haven't tried them personally but I would expect you could simply roll your chimney and outer shell and braze the seam to form a cylinder. Then braze that to the top and bottom sections that you spin.

With tight tolerances and narrow overlaps added weight would be negligible. Overlaps at the joints would stiffen the assembly significantly allowing you to use thinner metal for the sides for some more weight savings.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Alternative to welding on 05/20/2009 01:50:26 MDT Print View

I bought an alloy brazing kit off ebay. More properly, it's a solder, brazing refers to temperatures beyond the melting point of aluminium, but it solders at around 450C so plenty good enough for a kelly kettle.

I tried soldering beer can material, but it's tricky to keep the heat even and avoid blowing holes in the material. I'm looking at setting up a rotating table and a pedal operated flame direction changer so my hands are free to manipulate the solder rod and flux.

I'm sure the makers of the original Kelly Kettle have tried too, and they still make them at the thickness and weight they do because of the difficulties.

Hat's off to Devin for his efforts.

Devin Montgomery
(dsmontgomery) - MLife

Locale: one snowball away from big trouble
Ultralight Storm Kettle: VICTORY! on 06/25/2009 13:35:12 MDT Print View

Sorry for shouting, but after 2 years, four lathes, and more money than I care to think about, I've successfully made an ultralight storm kettle! Here are the specs:

weight: 6.0 oz
dimensions: appox. 4" wide by 7.5" tall when collapsed
boiling capacity: 20 oz
projected time to boil 20 oz (based mock-up trials): 6 min

Picture:

Collapsed, sitting on the lathe:


* you may notice some tooling marks, the bottom bead is wider than it should be, and the spout hole is a bit screwy, but the thing will hold water, and proves that I can actually make it. My technique needs some work, but at least I have the right tools, and the basics down. I'll update when I'm able to test fire it, and make a more refined prototype.

Oh, and thanks Rog!

Edited by dsmontgomery on 02/10/2011 09:10:42 MST.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Ultralight Storm Kettle: VICTORY! on 06/25/2009 13:41:43 MDT Print View

Devin, well done! Looks very good indeed, and 6oz is a tremendous achievement.

How did you do the jointing between the chimney and outer skin in the end? Just rolled and pressed? Or soldered?

Devin Montgomery
(dsmontgomery) - MLife

Locale: one snowball away from big trouble
Re: Re: Ultralight Storm Kettle: VICTORY! on 06/25/2009 13:50:29 MDT Print View

Thanks!

Yep, it's just rolled over - I have some water sitting in it right now, and there don't seem to be any leaks. I'll see how things go when I have a chance to boil with it.

. Callahan
(AeroNautiCal)

Locale: Stoke Newington, London, UK.
Congratulations! on 06/25/2009 14:49:18 MDT Print View

Very well done!

This is one heck of an achievement!

A measure of the difficulties involved may be appreciated by the fact that the Kelly Kettles, Eydon Storm Kettles and Ghillie Kettles are all manufactured by the one metal spinning company which has decades of experience, and a fully equipped engineering workshop/manufacturing facility!

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Ultralight Storm Kettle: VICTORY! on 06/25/2009 16:38:38 MDT Print View

Hi Devon,

Some great work, well done, I look forward to seeing some more work.

Tony

PS: I know what it is like to be addicted to stove making, I have also spent more money that I would like to care about.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Ultralight Storm Kettle: VICTORY! on 06/25/2009 17:43:11 MDT Print View

BLIMEY!!!!

Have you thought about writing it up?

Cheers

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Ultralight Kelly / Storm / Volcano Kettle on 06/25/2009 19:26:18 MDT Print View

I had a quick look at those commercial versions, the closest is the Small Kelly Kettle , 570ml so possibly 1 fl oz less , and that is 17oz, almost 3 times heavier !
I used a much bigger and heavier NZ made version (car camping) and I liked the relatively contained fire, it worked in the wind (and rain !!!) and no pot to clean up , it was also very fast and not that fussed about what kind of wood was used in it .
For the ones that only boil water it seems to me a better alternative to the BushBuddy and co (?)
BTW, Devin, try if you can , a tea light type alcohol stove in it , could be a dual fuel solution...
When do we place orders for this one ? (time to get some money back)
Franco