defranco? hope I spelled that right?

Yeah I guess the really cold would work as long as you dont sweat. and I guess that depends on the definition of what is really cold -5F -15F -20F -60. I know at -10F If I was active I still would not want to be wearing cotton(personally). Below that I cant speak from expierence so I couldnt say.

Cotton makes great outerwear for cold winter weather. It makes terrible base layers and insulation layers for cold winter weather.
Canvas anoraks are very popular for cold snow camping. The block the wind and snow and breathe well. They won't get wet in very cold conditions. They are similar to soft shells, just older technology. Some people claim that canvas breathes much better than modern winter outwear.

Check out the Empire Wool and Canvas Company Arctic Anorak:
http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/arcticanorak.htm

Outer layers now there is a concept that I havent thought of. That does look promising! But it would still have to pretty cold for me to wear cotton in the snow. But that is an insight i havent thought of and definately adds to the usefullness of cotton.

I'll stick with my FF volant jacket and pants. Probably half the weight for 5 times the price(I cant see that site at my office).

I know of a couple companies that make wall tents out of heavy canvas meant to be used in winter but that stuff is seriously heavy duty. So I guess I should have known some one woulod make a jacket for similar use. what about oiled canvas? do you know if that is breathable?

Oiling or waxing canvas really ruins the breathability (the oils and waxes also add a ton of wieght). Anoraks used for cold snow hiking aren't treated with anything. Canvas mukluks/booties are also very popular for cold snow hiking and aren't treated with anything.

You can take a canvas anorak (or any heavy cotton jacket) and wax/oil it to make a really good, tough rain jacket that is mostly waterproof. This is what they used for rain gear before the invention of rubberized rain jackets. It will last for years and years of heavy use. But a modern rain jacket is much better and lighter for backpacking.

Edited by justin_baker on 03/13/2013 19:28:41 MDT.

Well atleast you changed my stand point on cotton to some degree.

lets get this thread back on track "I dont get" Ultra light winter back packing. I have to carry so much extra gear to keep warm I just dont really get trying to lighten that up. Nor do I get carrying a back pack. Sleds/pulks are so much easier to drag. You might have to change your path some times or be creative up steep areas but nothing a rope and two people pulling it cant solve. This is just for winter backpacking obviously is your goals are to just summit peaks a sled wont work.

Ive done side hill steep up hill and let me tell you I love down hill. I use a split board so I just glide the whole way no energy spent. Maybe some one can shed some light on this for me.

What advantages does a backpack have over a sled in deep snow?

>"I dont get" Ultra light winter back packing. I have to carry so much extra gear to keep warm I just dont really get trying to lighten that up.

For sure, ultralight winter backpacking means a very different thing than the other 3 seasons. The UL threshold goes up accordingly. That doesn't mean that you can't still strive to watch weight and carry less, without being stupid about it. I can keep my winter base weight to ~15lbs and be good to 0*F.


>What advantages does a backpack have over a sled in deep snow?


I've never pulled a sled or pulk, so take this FWIW. They may just invite you to carry more stuff because it can hold it. Every pulk I see is laden with pounds and pounds and pounds of stuff. Even in winter, I like to keep my kit as minimal as possible.

Do you carry spare clothes, gloves, ect. I also carry a FF volant down jacket and pants to wear to bed and around camp. Not to mention an expend down mat. I guess I look at it this way in the other three seasons the consequences if your gear fails(ie gets wet) is you will be uncomfortable for a little but in the winter you could easily lose toes, fingers, or even die if you dont have the extra stuff and the difference between 30-40 pounds in a sled is really nothing.... thats also why you always see those things packed down with a ton of gear.

Edited by needsAbath on 03/13/2013 22:58:54 MDT.

I guess I look at it this way in the other three seasons the consequences if your gear fails(ie gets wet) is you will be uncomfortable for a little but in the winter you could easily lose toes, fingers, or even die if you dont have the extra stuff

you can die any season up here in the PNW ... theres deaths to prove it ...

hypothermia can happen in the rainy shoulder seasons quite easily

This is the gist of my winter kit, minus some of the dinky stuff:

Clothing carried when not hiking:

Down puffy
Katabatic down hood
Black Rock Gear down mitts
Columbia insulated WP/B pants
extra pair of socks
Down booties
Rain jacket in case things get sloppy


Clothing when hiking:

Powerstretch tights
regular ol' Nylon pants
Cap 1 or 2 base layer
Patagonia R1 Zip
softshell or Driclime
wool beanie
fleece gloves if needed
fleece balaclava


Sleeping:
Neoair XTherm
EE Rev X Quilt w/overstuff


Other:
Trailstar
winter canister stove
food
water
backpack and liner
snowshoes(not counted in base weight)
hiking poles (not counted in base weight)

Edited by T.L. on 03/14/2013 07:17:50 MDT.

I like this thread I say what I don't get and why and you guys give me a different perspective. Good stuff.

Yeah Eric I know you can die in any season but in California its pretty hard to die of hypothermia summer or spring(you'd really have to be trying)....but yes I imagine that places like Greenland you could still get that way in summer easily.

Travis-I like the list! and mine does not look too different I carry a couple extra pairs of mits- leather insulated gloves(love these) marmot primaloft expedition mitts and wool gloves(these work really well even when wet I know from experience)

I carry a complete extra set of base layers. basically I have atleast one extra of everything except my shells(to expensive to get 2 alpha sv jackets and pants for me any way. oh and the down suit is heavy but the sleeping quilt is like a pound. I love getting up to go pee at night and feeling like I am in a sleeping bag. I also find I don't procrastinate as much in the morning cause I don't really ever have to deal with the cold.....

where me and you really start to differ is Im guessing food and shelter. I usually bring two bottles of wine, tender loin cut into steaks in an olive oil salt pepper and garlic marinade, and last time we did a white wine and cheese fondue. I have to carry my snow shoes because I split board. I sleep in an 8 man kifaru tipi with a with a wood stove(heater). I usually have to bring a backpack for day hiking/snowboarding. I think with all that Im usually about 40 lbs maybe a little over.

You should see the envy in other peoples eyes when me and my dad fly past them in deep snow breaking trail faster than they can hike in snow shoes(which are really slow when compared to skis) and to come to camp only to find us set up with a fire going in our tipi. with the steak cooking in the fry pan and rice, potatoes or fondue bubbling. The best thing is that we can dry all of our stuff at night so we never have wet stuff (unless something goes really wrong). I've even taken a shower in that thing. We have easily gotten the inside of the tipi to over 70 probably closer to 80 when it was below 20 outside. oh and camera gear that stuff weighs but I get great shots in the winter like my avatar. That's my dad sitting on a dock watching the sun come up over echo lake after trekking through the night.

Edited by needsAbath on 03/14/2013 10:56:22 MDT.

On every trip I have been on since moving to the US the forecast has been about as accurate as peeing blindfolded.

I always carry a puffy parka, trousers and a decent sleeping bag in winter, when I was young and handsome I used to carry crap gear and suffered big time

Stephen-- yeah, its an issue here. What you have to do is align yourself with the magnetic declination. It's about 3 degrees northeast of true north. Give me a compass and a good wind, and I'll pee on a nickel from 10 feet away.



Josh, sounds like you live like kings while out in the wilds!

Edited by T.L. on 03/14/2013 12:18:12 MDT.

Travis, How ya gonna find that nickle while blindfolded?

Maybe you cheat Travis and peak ;-)

"Maybe you cheat Travis and peak"

Some people think Travis peaked a long time ago.....

:-)

Alas, 'tis true. Last week was the pinnacle. It's all downhill from here.

Old age pension next mate :-)

The RIGHT sort of cotton makes good parkas for certain conditions. Check out the Ventile brand. Unlike ordinary highly processed cotton, Ventile does not wet out nearly as much. It has a long and noble history - but it is a bit heavy.

Cheers

When cotton is waxed or oiled, the wax absorbs into the cotton and takes up most of the physical space. For that reason, waxed cotton absorbs far less water weight when fully submerged in water.
Just something I've noticed.