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Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Another question regarding my hippie dad on 03/09/2013 09:09:37 MST Print View

Ok. So I'm using my father as an excuse to get another shelter (do I really need an excuse??)...he really does need one as I sold the two he used. I would really like to have something a bit more substantial than the hexamid for more foul weather pitching, some mild winter trips, etc. I've sort of settled on the stratospire, but still ogling over some other really nice shelters out there.

Here is my new problem:

My dad is freaked out about not having a free standing tent. He remembers some trips in boundary waters where they had to camp on solid rock, nothing but Lake Superior rocks...basically no place for a stake. I am trying to convince him that you can always find SOMETHING to tie off to...but he's not buying what I'm selling.

Any advice for me to convince him that he really wants the shelter that I want?? Otherwise I should just keep my REI quarter dome and let him use that. Of course...that was to help me fund a trailstar vs stratospire..............

And Nick G, as I I was searching the forums to find good information about pitching tarps in hard-to-pitch places I found a pic of you modeling your cuben poncho/groundsheet... you do look just like my dad!!!!!

Jan S
(karl-ton)
Rainbow? on 03/09/2013 10:14:39 MST Print View

I always fail at convincing my dad if he's dead set on something.

The double rainbow looks like a good compromise however and maybe if he's too lazy to use the trekking poles you can convince him in the long run that freestanding is not really necessary (although I admit I usually like the option to make tents free standing).

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Another question regarding my hippie dad on 03/09/2013 10:22:58 MST Print View

"And Nick G, ... you do look just like my dad!!!!!"

Ouch!

So your dad's around 75? ......

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: Another question regarding my hippie dad on 03/09/2013 10:25:37 MST Print View

...And has great calves.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Scary on 03/09/2013 10:26:18 MST Print View

As a dad that is also a gear freak, my kids know that they should never buy me gear.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Another question regarding my hippie dad on 03/09/2013 10:38:11 MST Print View

""And Nick G, ... you do look just like my dad!!!!!"

Ouch!

So your dad's around 75? ......"

My bad! I thought you were talking about Nick Gatel, but I see there's a Nick G. Oops!

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Rainbow? on 03/09/2013 10:38:27 MST Print View

There are very few, if any, truly free standing tents. I think the factory makers have stretched the term to mean the poles will hold the basic tent up-- while you run around and put in 10 stakes to make it fully functional and weatherly.

When they first came out with dome tents with 3 poles they were close to fully functional with no stakes. Many were too tall and flaky in high winds and would lean over sideways. Of course, with no stakes, you may see your shelter going over a cliff-- expensive kites!

The freestanding tents I've seen of late need at least 6 stakes: one for each corner and a couple more to spread out the fly for vestibules. If the designer did it right, there should be some loops halfway down the fly over the poles so you can add more guy lines in high winds.

If you are camping on rock, some spare line and rocks or logs can be used to anchor a tent. The closer it is to truly free standing, the better off you are.

I want a Rainbow too, or get a hammock-- perfect for old hippies :)

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/09/2013 10:40:08 MST.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
You're right...I was talking about nick gatel on 03/09/2013 10:46:30 MST Print View

It seems there are a lot of aging hippies on this site....

Just so you see what I am up against...he kept referring to the Eureka! Everest tent as what he wants. He says he saw one of those in 1978 and thought it was perfect...that it looks like it would hold up to bad weather and you can just pick it up and put it down somewhere else if you needed to...Eureka

I told him I give up and am just going to buy the stratosprire, which he is free to use if he wants.

I probably should have just bought it and left him out of it all together. I think I'm going back to the pee bottle thread.

Jan S
(karl-ton)
Re: Re: Rainbow? on 03/09/2013 10:50:43 MST Print View

"There are very few, if any, truly free standing tents."

Yup and if they are truly freestanding you can usually bring a car to transport it. But then the combination of real storm and so much rock you can't use any pegs is pretty rare too.

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
"Another question regarding my hippie dad" on 03/09/2013 19:27:15 MST Print View

Tell your dad that another aging hippie (myself) will certify that you can always find anchor points for a somewhat less than freestanding tent like the BA Firecreek or SL 1...yes, you may have to spend some time gathering stones, but this "work" is more than offset by the weight savings of these types of tents. Furthermore, in my experience it's only a few nights out of many on a typical trip that demand this extra effort. (Of course, everything depends on where you're going). Most importantly, I've found that tent pitches requiring rocks for anchor points have excelled in keeping my tent dry and wind proof; always as good or better than "soft" ground stakes.

So as someone who remembers the North Face Tadpole and carried it for years, please tell your dad that these "new "tents will make him very happy and keep him very well protected.

Edited by book on 03/09/2013 19:30:02 MST.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Another question regarding my hippie dad on 03/09/2013 21:15:55 MST Print View

Jennifer
You could always get hold of a 10"x23" stuff sack, put 15 lbs inside it and give it to your dad so that he can feel the power of that Everest tent...
Of course I know that it is hard to reason with nostalgia but lets face it, "Everest" tents are good on Everest not so much in the woods...

Someone in the local forum was going on about how good those Antarctic Scott tents are, I commented that yes they are good... down in Antarctica (not that many realise they are 60 lbs ...)

NW Hiker
(king2005ify) - M
Hillie on 03/09/2013 23:12:18 MST Print View

Get him a Hilleberg Soulo and don't look back...light, truly freestanding, serious tent for every season.

Climb in one and you'll quickly understand, plus it will last for so many years it will be yours one day :)

Cheers

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Thoughts from the real Nick G... on 03/13/2013 09:30:27 MDT Print View

Jennifer,

I have a similar but opposite situation than you. My 26 year old son likes traditional gear. Even though he has run thousands and thousands of miles over the past 10 years, he likes leather hiking boots versus trail runners for hiking. He likes conventional tents and has a big REI internal frame pack. I bought most of his gear, and it was the gear he wanted.

As a parent I guess it is my job to encourage him to backpack, but ultimately the gear he uses is up to him. I don't try and push him to go more UL. And I would buy him all the new cool UL stuff for birthdays and Christmas should he want to change.

So let your dad do his thing. But if you are going to share a tent, then buy what you want for you... let dad borrow it if he likes. If you want to buy your dad his own tent, then get what he wants -- if you can afford it.

Most people our age don't like to change :)

for this old fart, I can easily keep up with my son on backpacking trips, given my UL equipment; and this is a kid that can run a 10K in 30 minutes. Maybe that is something you might want to share with your dad.

He might like some of the old gear on my website. Vintage Gear

what not
(firestarter01) - F

Locale: Bay Area
tadpole 23 on 03/13/2013 16:11:27 MDT Print View

"There are very few, if any, truly free standing tents."

Humm... not sure I buy that. I've never staked down my tadpole 23 and it's been great. Generally I'm in decent weather but I have taken it snow camping a few times with great success.

I'm pretty much sold on the tarp/bivy thing at this point but the tadpole is a great tent all around IMO.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: tadpole 23 on 03/13/2013 21:39:40 MDT Print View

Looks to me like the Tadpole 23 has 5-7 stakes and it always needs two on the front end of the rainfly to be fully functional. Am I correct?

Tadpole 23

This is where I say truly free standing, or not. I think some would define free standing as meaning you can put the poles in it and the main structure will stand up by itself and that is where the big tent manufacturer's tend to go. It does loosely define the type of tent.

But when I bought a Big Agnes Seedhouse and pulled TWELVE stakes out of the bag, I was not impressed. Yup, you could put the poles in and the inner tent would stand up, but then the fly needed a "little" help and I felt like I was framing a small house, crawling around on my knees and hammering in expensive nails for another 15 minutes. Really fun in a rain storm. Hilarious.

In comparison, my Gatewood Cape only needs 6 stakes and even a big tarp setup won't eat more than 8 stakes, so what is this "freestanding" thing all about? When you go to REI, you will see a mass of inner tents standing taut and proud, but that ain't they way they are used, certainly not in my rainy part of the universe!

Back in the "old days" when they came out with hex dome tents, you could actually set them up and have the rainfly snug without sinking a single stake. They would fly away in the wind without stakes, as will any of the new tortured-dome shaped tents.

Even looking at the Hilleberg tents, the Unna is described as "fully freestanding" but watch the installation video while the installer puts four pegs in the corners plus four more to the guylines to get the wind stability that Hilleberg is known for. Close, but not quite.

The only UL tent I've seen that you can park with no stakes and get full function is the Tarptent Rainbow with trekking poles installed. Take a bow, Henry! Of course it can still fly away of it's not nailed down, but I'll call it freestanding and fully functional.

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/13/2013 22:04:09 MDT.

David Erickson
(trailwolf)
Re: Another question regarding my hippie dad on 03/13/2013 22:14:19 MDT Print View

Take it from a hippy, there is no such thing as "free standing".

I used to have a supposedly "free standing" tent, but it still needed to be tied down to prevent it from blowing away in the wind. I once had a "free standing" nylon fishhouse also. When does the wind not blow in the middle of a frozen lake? I created a folding wooden floor to which I would strap the fishhouse to keep it from blowing across the lake.

I just recently purchased the Six Moons Skyscape-X.

what not
(firestarter01) - F

Locale: Bay Area
tadpole on 03/13/2013 22:16:11 MDT Print View

well, I suppose you might need two if the rainfly were to be extended. As for the others stakes the rainfly tie-outs secure to the tent poles so they're not needed IMO.

Thanks for the lengthy response :-) When I think of "free standing" I put all tents that can be blown over in the wind and still hold form.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: response on 03/13/2013 22:21:51 MDT Print View

"Thanks for the lengthy response :-)"

That was a rant! :)

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Re: Thoughts from the real Nick G... on 03/13/2013 22:28:07 MDT Print View

Nick: That must be 5K. He may be fast but NO body is that fast ;)

Edited by obxcola on 03/13/2013 22:29:00 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Thoughts from the real Nick G... on 03/13/2013 22:41:09 MDT Print View

Nah, his best time in the 5k is 13 min 54 secs.

World record for 10k is 26 min 17 secs, so 30 minutes isn't that fast.

;)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: tadpole 23 on 03/14/2013 07:49:33 MDT Print View

I have a Tadpole 23 that I use when I backpack with my wife.
it weighs 4.5 lbs, which in my mind is reasonable considering it is a palace.
it is large enough so that the vestibule space is almost redundant, so I rarely stake the vestibule. in fact I rarely stake any of the tent unless I'm expecting a hurricane.
So Yes, this is a truly free standing tent,
and while they call it a 3 season, it is very adequate for all but the most intense 4 season use.
many ++++'s for this tent.

Jan S
(karl-ton)
Re: Re: tadpole 23 on 03/14/2013 07:57:04 MDT Print View

Seems to me a lot of the problems come from the fact the Americans somehow define the inner as tent and the fly as something optional. That's something that always confused me to be honest.

As for the freestanding Unna It is freestanding, but of course in high winds a tent needs some connection with the ground or it will – as you say – just be blown away.

Oh and the TT Moment and Scarp can be completely freestanding as well, including the vestibuls.

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Re: Re: Re: Thoughts from the real Nick G... on 03/14/2013 10:23:40 MDT Print View

Nah, his best time in the 5k is 13 min 54 secs.

World record for 10k is 26 min 17 secs, so 30 minutes isn't that fast.

;)

Awesome: you must be proud!

Rob P
(rpjr) - M
Inner Tent on 03/14/2013 21:50:36 MDT Print View

Jan,

I think it might be due to the weather. I live in Michigan, and we have 4 seasons. In autumn, winter and spring I certainly see the advantage of an an outer pitch first tent, but in the summer, when you can have temps in the 90's F (32C) with high humidity and bugs, if there is no threat of rain I'd rather just use a mesh inner with nothing over it. You have to try and keep cool!

Jan S
(karl-ton)
Re: Inner Tent on 03/15/2013 07:09:55 MDT Print View

Yeah, the summer temperature was the only explanation I could come up with. I still think Hilleberg, Tarptent and a couple cottages did the right thing and give you a bit more fiddly inner only setup in the summer and the fast and easy way if the weather is bad and you need a shelter fast.

And I still wonder if there is some other advantage to connect the poles to the inner and not the fly that is not obvious.

Bob Shaver
(rshaver) - F

Locale: West
tenting on solid rock on 03/15/2013 09:55:45 MDT Print View

Of course your Dad should use the tent he prefers, but he would have no problem camping on solid rock with a non-freestanding tent. I have done that many times with my Squall 2 from Tarptent. I have loops of light braided dacron fishing line at the place there tent stakes go. These are 150 lb test, and very light. If I can't get a stake in ground, I put a rock in the loop, and scootch it out till the tent is taut. Tenting on solid rock is no problem with a good inflatable sleeping pad, and I've always been able to find rocks or logs for the 6 stakes needed for the Squall 2.tenting on solid rock