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Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: PowerMax or 7/16ths UNEF or Camping Gaz on 03/09/2013 22:28:37 MST Print View

The connector is more like the French Campingaz one than the Superfly.
Ah. Interesting. And it works with threaded too. Fascinating.

The pin - you would not believe how much trouble that gave me! The Lindal valves are all different. Yes, a solution was found, and yes, it will be in the article to come.
Actually, having tried my hand at canister refilling, I very much would believe it.

I will look forward to the article,

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Why not 100% propane in canisters? on 03/09/2013 22:38:28 MST Print View

Given all the troubles vaporizing butane, why not make light canisters with 100% propane specifically for winter use?
Propane's a frisky critter, and it's tough to keep him caged.

Even so, there was a light weight canister out there, but it was for torches, it was a specialty item, and it didn't stay on shelves long. It may have had approval problems or maybe there just wasn't demand for it; I really don't know. I have two such canisters in my collection.


More info on said canisters: 100% Propane for Backpacking

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Refillable 226g Propane Canisters on 03/09/2013 23:02:59 MST Print View

Now if someone offered a refillable 200-gram fuel weight aluminum or titanium propane canister, I'd order a handful.

Well, the one pictured above is 226g, and while not officially rated for refills, yes you can refill them with 100% propane. Problem is they're hard to find. Supposedly there were still some available in Boise, ID, last I heard.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Why not 100% propane in canisters? on 03/10/2013 03:18:53 MDT Print View

Hi Jim

> there was a light weight canister out there, but it was for torches, it was a specialty item,
Sigh. Never in Oz. SIGH!

Cheers

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Thermal Feedback in Upright Canister Stoves on 03/10/2013 04:04:20 MDT Print View

Sigh. Never in Oz. SIGH!
Actually Bunnings (Melbourne) had them but for a very short time.
By the time I realised their potential they had disappeared from the shelves...

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/10/2013 07:22:08 MDT Print View

Does exist, altho I have yet to see one in a shop
Sievert propane canister

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/10/2013 10:31:31 MDT Print View

It even says "Manufactured by Primus" on that link.

Why cant they get it going? They're already set up with the proper segment of retail/ distribution.


must be a safety issue. only welders and people who are 'trained' with compressed gases?


--ironically I was typing "distribution" and accidentally typed "disastrbution" (disaster) maybe that was The Big Bang telling me why they DON'T make em. lol

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/10/2013 15:59:10 MDT Print View

> Why cant they get it going? They're already set up with the proper segment of
> retail/ distribution.

To import these into a country I believe they have to get safety approval in that country, and they have to use approved shipping methods. They can't use air-freight, so it has to go by sea. That normally means waiting for a cargo to be ready, unless they make up a special sea-mail parcel. This is only worth doing if they think the sales volume will be big enough.

I have argued the point at some length with both the Sievert people in Europe and the Primus people in Australia, and it seems they are just not interested in bothering to do the paper work. If only I could get some of the empties, before they were filled! Certify them as clean (no fuel) and airfreight.

SIGH. IF ONLY!

Cheers

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/10/2013 18:47:35 MDT Print View

The aluminum in that can is probably a lot thicker than aluminum used in the old Power Max butane canisters. The empty can probably weighs significantly more and it may not be easy to crush.

The problem getting a new fuel can in the market dominated by 7/16" NCEF threaded lindal valve canisters is getting enough market to justify the product. And people might not buy the product because it would require a different stove or because the stove would be rendered useless if the canister is removed from the market.

However if a company brought a aluminum canister to the market with a 7/16" threaded lindal valve that is recessed a 1/2". remote canister stoves with a compatible fitting could use the new canister as well as the current butane cans. The new aluminum can with have a weighted hose on the inside so that liquid fuel would be supplied to the stove without the need to invert the canister. Regular stove that are not compatible with liquid fuel would not fit the recessed valve which would help prevent accidents.

The new aluminum can could be filled with the current butane/propane fuel mix, pure propane (if thicker aluminum walls are used) or any mixture in-between. And if a long distance hiker stopped in a town to get extra supplies he would have to worry about not finding the new aluminum canisters. He could use standard butane canister instead.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/10/2013 22:08:36 MDT Print View

Yes, I am fairly sure the Sievert canister is heavier than a Coleman Powermax canister. I did check at one stage.

Note that it does have a 7/16" NCEF threaded Lindal valve, so it would be immediately compatible with every remote canister stove on the market.

Donations of unused canisters eagerly sought... :-)

Cheers

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: Re: Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/12/2013 00:07:36 MDT Print View

"Note that it does have a 7/16" NCEF threaded Lindal valve, so it would be immediately compatible with every remote canister stove on the market."

it might not be compatible with every remote canister stove on the market. I didn't realize this today but the higher pressure of a propane canister could cause some serious problems if used with current stoves. The greater pressure will give a a very big flame. You might have to turn the valve to minimum to get a reasonable sized flame. Then a small change in valve position might just turn it off. Also the hoses used on current remote canister stoves might fail or leak at the pressures associated with propane. Lighting the stove could cause an uncontrolled fire if the hose leaks.

I could be completely wrong. In fact I hope I am. I didn't know anything about the Sievert canisters until yesterday and at present I have found very little information about them. Has anyone actually made a stove for it or has anyone actually tried to use it on a standard butane remote canister stove?

I guess I should have looked at Jim's earlier link before I posted the above. He has used it with a conventional butane stove without any major problems.

Edited by Surf on 03/12/2013 00:24:08 MDT.

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
FYI on 03/12/2013 06:02:34 MDT Print View

Ken,
Thank you for being a valued Bernzomatic customer and we are happy to help with your question below. Unfortunately, this product was discontinued in a product line rebuild prior to Bernzomatic joining Worthington Industries in the fall of 2011. The power cell line and the torches that accompanied them are no longer available in the market. I would encourage you to visit a retailer or wholesaler such as Lowes, Home Depot or your local Plumbing Supply house and acquire a new torch with the updated features. If we can be of any more help, please call us at 866-928-2657.

Again, we apologize for any inconvenience this issue has caused you.

Kris Cooley
Consumer Specialist
Phone: 614-840-3468
Fax: 614-438-3083
Kris.Cooley@worthingtonindustries.com

Edited by KENLARSON on 03/12/2013 06:03:11 MDT.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/12/2013 08:14:36 MDT Print View

Steven, I wouldn't expect higher pressure to be an issue - only a good thing. Propane at 0F is like butane at (no data in front me now) something like 70F. Further, you expect butane to be controllable from 35F to 120F, right? That's a huge pressure range.

If they've got the right valve, no problem. You may assume more pressure difference across a valve makes for more fuel flow, but that's only true to a point. At high pressure, the fuel gas goes sonic and is mass limited, based on the cross-section of the current valve setting.

Propane will burn a little leaner in a stove tuned for butane. That may be a bit less BTU/hour at max flame. It would also put out less CO at altitude. But mostly, a butane-propane-mix stove will be fine with 0 to 100% propane.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Propane, butane, iso-blends on 03/12/2013 11:24:54 MDT Print View

The benefit (or problem) with propane is that its vapor pressure is ~ 5 times as great as butane or the iso blends. Here is a chart from the Zen Stoves website (http://zenstoves.net/Canister.htm)

vapor pressure chart

Any appliance (stove) needs to be constructed to handle the pressure of its intended fuel. This means that burners, fittings, seals, hoses, lines, fuel container, etc. must handle the maximum pressure of the fuel.

I am not a scientist, but have a lot of experience with propane appliances. Let’s look at how RV manufactures manage the high pressures of propane. Any appliance that is inside the RV must run on 11 inches water column pressure (less than 1 psi). That means the following appliances in my tent trailer operate at 11” WC: 13.5K btu furnace, 6 gallon water heater, LPG refrigerator/freezer, and 3 burner stove/oven. How do I know this is the actual pressure? I have measured it with a manometer (below).

manometer

The appliances in my tent trailer are all known as low pressure appliances. The pressure is dropped from the LPG tanks to the camper via a pressure regulator.

Now let’s talk about outdoor propane appliances. Most are rated at 13-16 psi, and all include a built in pressure regulator. I have never seen a butane/iso stove canister stove with a pressure regulator.

coleman stove

Above: This is a Coleman propane stove and the regulated pressure is 16 psi.
You can run this stove off a bulk propane tank, but you MUST purchase a HIGH pressure hose rated at well over 200 psi.


baby q

Above: This is an interesting one, a Weber Baby Q Grill. My testing found that it is a low pressure stove operating at under 1 psi. The reason it works so well is that the grill is enamel coated cast iron (heavy). Given it is a low pressure appliance, I was able to remove the regulator and connect it directly to the outside quick connector on my tent trailer, which has 11" WC pressure.


lpg quick fitting
Above: regulator removed and replaced with a quick fitting.

lpg fitting and hose
Above: Hose connector to the camper.

baby q and stove
Above: low pressure appliances connected to tent trailer.

So why am I posting pictures of RV propane appliances? Because I know the operating specifications and can verify the pressures.


When it comes to backpacking stoves I am going to use the stove that works for the conditions I am going to encounter. In winter snow conditions I am going to use a Wind Pro II (inverted) or a MSR Dragon Fly. Those are the right tools for me, and I am going to use the fuels that are intended for each stove by the stove manufacturer; and I am going to follow the operating and maintenance procedures put forth by the manufacturer. That is why I have never had the "common" problems folks have with liquid stoves to include a Svea 123. There are too many things that can go wrong when you are out in the field using "jury-rigged" equipment, especially if one is tired and cold.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/12/2013 15:10:01 MDT Print View

> I didn't realize this today but the higher pressure of a propane canister could
> cause some serious problems if used with current stoves.
This might be so in principle, but it is unlikely in practice. There are two areas which might be of concern: the hose, and the valving. (Disclaimer: these are personal opinions, not BPL statements.)

Hose pressure
This would be higher with propane, but the hoses used are mostly small-bore and will take an order of magnitude more pressure than is present. I say 'mostly' - there are some Asian remote canister stoves which seem to have poor-quality hoses and they might fail. I just don't know about them. Caution with them.
I addition, the braid overwrap will add enormous strength to the hoses. The burst pressure on a real (good) hose with braid would be extremely high.

Valving
The higher pressure will alter the valving of course. If the design of the valve is such that the stove used goes from off to full power in a quarter turn, then control will become more tricky. However, recent designs have been made with a much more gradual taper so that several turns are required. In this case the valving with propane will be more sensitive but easily controlled.

> standard butane remote canister stove?
No such thing really. The screw-thread canisters usually contain a butane/propane mix, with a higher pressure than plain butane.

The only change which might be needed when running on 100% propane would be a slight reduction in the size of the air inlet holes. Just blocking them slightly with a few turns of wire would be enough - if needed.

Cheers

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/12/2013 23:45:46 MDT Print View

Nick,

Caution is a good thing, but I've experimented with 100% propane in a couple of different forms for my backpacking stoves with no ill effect. It actually works pretty well. I haven't tried them in hot weather, but for that I'd probably just stick with butane or a propane/butane blend.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

anders ahrsjo
(anders.ahrsjo@gmail.com) - M

Locale: Sweden
Re: Re: Re: 100% propane in aluminuim canisters? on 03/20/2013 15:33:53 MDT Print View

Until 2011 you could get 70% propan/30% Butan mix in alu cans here in Sweden.
About 210 gram gas in a 100 gram spray can with Lindahl valve.
Excellent vinter gas for a Primus EtaPack Lite stove.
I've just packed a few for a trip north (16 h train and 2 h bus).
CheersBiltema gas with 70% propanNote EN 417 standard and Propan 70%. Butan 30%.