Most Breathable Bivy?
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Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 03/08/2013 19:47:10 MST Print View

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Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/12/2013 22:29:24 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Rab / Integral Designs Alpine Bivy: No Bug Netting on 03/08/2013 20:27:07 MST Print View

That's because Rabs bivvies are made to be used the way bivvies are supposed to be used: high altitude mountaineering.

The Uber Bivy is a tent.

John Kays
(johnk) - M

Locale: SoCal
breathable bivy on 03/08/2013 20:42:01 MST Print View

Max, if you are still following this thread and if it hasn't already been mentioned you should consider a tyvek bivy. This is just about the most breathable material available so say some of the folks who report on these things here at BPL. I bought one from LAUFBURSCHE when I moved from a regular tent to tarp like shelters. Since it is relatively dry here in the Sierras I haven't used it much although I carry it often. I wanted a very breathable fabric with enough water resistance to protect against spray from a hard storm. The tarp is the first line of defense against moisture. The bivy, the way I use it is to protect indirect spray and swirling snow. Mine weighs between 5 to 6 ozs.

Edited by johnk on 03/08/2013 20:43:16 MST.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 03/08/2013 21:47:39 MST Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/12/2013 22:30:03 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: What is a bivy... on 03/08/2013 22:58:46 MST Print View

Daniel, have you used a bivy before?

David Miles
(davidmiles) - F

Locale: Eastern Sierra
Re: Re: What is a bivy... on 03/09/2013 00:09:42 MST Print View

"Daniel, have you used a bivy before?"

I'm not sure of the purpose of this question. I have used many bivys and tents over the last 40 years. I know the Uber Bivy has many features of a tent, but I felt that it fit more in the bivy category due to the lack of stakes and guylines. I can throw it on the ground and get in with my gear and be sheltered in under 30 seconds. In that sense I would put it in the bothy bag category. You can put the Uber Bivy in any category that makes you happy.

No one shelter is the answer to all problems. I sleep in a real 4-season tent for multi-day winter trips. I carry and emergency bivy on day trips. That's why Rab, MilesGear, and almost every shelter company has more that one product.

Max, I'm sorry about all the sidetrack on your thread. I really only wanted to counter the myth that WPB fabrics have more condensation issues than DWR. I think many opinions come from experiences with older WPB technologies.

I'll stay out of this thread now. I will handle any discussion on the Uber Bivy over on Gear Deals where it belongs.

Mole J
(MoleJ) - F

Locale: UK
bivis still on 03/09/2013 02:08:49 MST Print View

that uber Bivi is obviously a bivi. Its basically a bag with a self supporting hood.

5of the 11 bivis currently made by Rab have mesh doors/panels. Even 2 of the 3 that do look like tents;)


Dave U . sorry but I think your recent line is coming across as uninformed and a little aggressive.

Bivis are used in various kinds of terrains and regions as thousands of soldiers and many travellers will attest.

I've used various types bivi since the 80's ( more often on damp moorland/british hills or in woods ) ,

eVent +Rab Alpine)has been very breathable, but not amazingly more than my British army Goretex bag (which is gtx allround and very tough n heavy).

If it's just for a night , I often use a coated wpb fabric bag (Alpkit Hunka XL). Depending on conditions, sometimes it's dry inside, sometimes damp. with a syn sleeping bag, it's ok.


MAX

if, as it seems to me, you are wanting a system made of items which can be used separately, I'd suggest a light wpb bivi and a separate upper body net for when insects are about. One which could be hung to the tarp above your face. (like a big shaped elasticated drawstring noseeum net bag which you pull over your head down to waist) More room than a bivi screen, and leave at home when not needed.


Dave Miles. bivis look interesting. guess they are only in white? the emergency bivy looks tempting.

Edited by MoleJ on 03/09/2013 04:24:48 MST.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Rab / Integral Designs Alpine Bivy: No Bug Netting on 03/09/2013 03:52:04 MST Print View

"That's because Rabs bivvies are made to be used the way bivvies are supposed to be used: high altitude mountaineering."

And trekking poles are for skiing, not hiking or setting up shelters people.

And you stove whackos out there, beer cans are for drinking beer not cooking dinner.

Innovation has no place in the lightweight backpacking community. These are the rules.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Hah! on 03/09/2013 04:31:40 MST Print View

Dave U? Uninformed and aggressive?!

Cesar Valdez
(PrimeZombie) - F

Locale: Scandinavia
Re: genetic fallacy on 03/09/2013 06:43:07 MST Print View

"And trekking poles are for skiing, not hiking or setting up shelters people.

And you stove whackos out there, beer cans are for drinking beer not cooking dinner.

Innovation has no place in the lightweight backpacking community. These are the rules."

Excellent point. Not to mention that Cuben was made for sails on sailboats.

Plus nothing can stop one from modifying and/or making improvements on gear, bivy sacks included. As some of you may have seen I have been preparing and debating the variables of my new tarp/bivy shelter system. As of now the whole thing all in weights 355g for total enclosed protection from elements and bugs/critters.

I think once the issue of condensation is either solved or made minimal enough to not really be an issue for a given bivy, what a bivy brings to the table for backpackers, especially UL ones, can't easily be ignored. Aside from the potential for a lot of weight savings, a bivy also provides a bump (albeit a small one for most bivies) in warmth. It also blocks drafts/wind, rain spray from the edges of a tarp, dew/mist, and also protects your sleeping bag and sleeping pad (provided your pad fits inside, of course).

Of course there are subjective preferences--some people don't like being in small spaces, etc. And yes there are more objective drawbacks, for example one can't sit up inside a bivy and say cook breakfast, i.e. less space.

But please, let's not resort to things like a genetic fallacy. Let's talk about specific issues with specific bivies for use in specific conditions.

For the record, own two bivies: a Borah Cuben bottom M50 top, and a Ti Goat Silnylon top (I forget the bottom, but it's waterproof and not Cuben). The Borah one I just got and have not tried out yet. The Ti Goat I have used around 8-10 times in various conditions here in Sweden/Norway. I have only had minimal frost or condensation in this bivy, and only in the foot box. And the climate here is fairly humid with a lot of rain.

Now all that said, I actually agree with some critiques expressed about certain higher weight bivies. If you ask me, 26oz is waaaaaaay too heavy for just a bivy, even if it is supposedly a stand alone shelter. Personally, I think if your tarp/bivy combo goes over 500g, you might want to think about using a hybrid tent that is roughly the same weight, like the SMD Sky X. If you are strapped for cash, then I would extend the tarp/bivy to a full 1kg, which is not too crazy heavy, and you can get a big and good quality silnylon tarp for a reasonable price (especially used e.g. Gear Swap). And you can make a very cheap MYOG bivy out of lots of different stuff, but here is one very cheap and seemingly effective solution that claims to be 5 bucks of Tyvek/tape and around 10oz (skip to 8:30 to get to the bivy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_UHoJwLiWs&feature=share&list=PLVKmRP030HjF-SUFdOPLTiBjr2UBlnOwd

I know I am late to the party and that the author of the OP is essentially "done" with this thread from what I gather, but perhaps others in the peanut gallery will find the above helpful--if anything to learn about the genetic fallacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

EDIT: Typos, always typos...

Edited by PrimeZombie on 03/09/2013 06:46:23 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: genetic fallacy on 03/09/2013 08:42:10 MST Print View

"Dave U . sorry but I think your recent line is coming across as uninformed and a little aggressive."

Yes, that would define me exactly.

On the other hand, a quick search on these forums shows that I was a dedicated bivy shelter user for years. I have used eVent primarily and did some testing for Integral Designs given they were located in my back yard. I have used bivvies in the wet west coast to the high mountain challenges of the Canadian Rockies.

"Bivis are used in various kinds of terrains and regions as thousands of soldiers and many travellers will attest."

And soldiers carry 6 lbs packs (empty) that are often frameless, carrying loads of 60 lbs. What does this have to do with lightweight backpacking? Bivvies are used by soldiers so that they can remain prone and hidden, not to mention be able to get a shot off on their stomachs.

But I digress.

What I am trying to do here is prevent the purchase of something that will be sold after just a use or two.

The reason that I asked Daniel if he has ever used a bivy is because I want to help him not make the mistake that so many do with bivy shelters. A sleeping bag cover type water resistant bivy to be used in conjunction with a tarp or a waterproof bivy cover to be used in snow caves is much, much different than the hoop styled bivy shelters.

Imagine it raining. Hard. Ever try to get in and out of a bivy shelter without getting soaked? Ever try to change clothes inside a bivy shelter with a raging storm outside? Every try to store your pack and muddy shoes inside while you twist and turn trying to pee in a bottle? Ever use one during a deep shoulder season snow storm while the fabric pushes against your down bag rendering the insulate properties substandard? Ever be completely covered in snow, open the door only to find an avalanche of snow meet you face first or worse, realize that your bivy shelter is no longer venting at all? I could go on.

I have already touched on the weight aspect so I won't again.

I still use a bivy occasionally for additional warmth and as a barrier against convective heat loss with my sleep system under a tarp but it weighs 7 oz. I still have room to comfortably change clothes, cook, etc under the tarp.

And yes, I am the opposing view here on this thread but I don't care. It is vital that the OP (and Daniel) have all available information to make a decision. Why? I wish I had experienced users comment before I used products that I ended up hating and selling anyway.

@Nathan - I never said that innovation was not permitted. Historically, bivy shelters were the only choice for the weight conscious backpacker. One person tents were well over 4 pounds and a 2.5 pound bivy shelter (which is what these things weighed 20 plus years ago) was the only choice. The only innovation that I see with the Uber Bivy is the fabric with respect to breathability at the expense of durability. However, it looks almost identical to every other hooped bivy.

This isn't a critique of Dave's product. Not at all. It is a critique of bivy shelters.

With 1.5 lb, extremely versatile tents available currently that permit a modular approach and which have none of the shortcomings of a bivy shelter, why shouldn't Daniel and Max be aware of what is available for their needs?

In any event (no pun intended), I won't post any more on my thoughts and experiences on the matter.

No harm intended; no foul.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Re: genetic fallacy on 03/09/2013 09:09:12 MST Print View

"In any event (no pun intended), I won't post any more on my thoughts and experiences on the matter."

There's no need to self-censor. When you're sardonic first and helpful second, you can't be shocked when people get annoyed at you. I guess I understand if that's your "thing," man, but look at how much you could have contributed at any time, and instead, you opted for snarky 2-sentence cynicisms.

So, your opinion is welcome, but I know myself and probably others want the opinion part, not the tough guy spiel.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Meh on 03/09/2013 09:14:08 MST Print View

Dave is just jealous of my new Cooper S.

He also talks sense, unlike some folk that hike twice a year.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: genetic fallacy on 03/09/2013 09:21:25 MST Print View

Max, surely you jest. Re read all of my previous posts on this thread.

Asking Daniel if he has ever used a bivy is a legitimate question and would define his ultimate gear choice.



@Mike. I love my ID event Overbag! I suspect it would also look good in a Mini!

Edited by FamilyGuy on 03/09/2013 09:22:18 MST.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Nah on 03/09/2013 09:45:34 MST Print View

Wrong colo'u'r Dave. My ID bag is green.
The inside of my S is a mixture of silver and black. :-)

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
You got me! on 03/09/2013 10:10:59 MST Print View

Yeah, I was jestin'.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 03/09/2013 12:15:45 MST Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/12/2013 22:47:35 MDT.

Mole J
(MoleJ) - F

Locale: UK
Bivi on 03/10/2013 05:00:47 MDT Print View

David U

I have no doubt you have a lot of bivi experience. (I have lurked these forums for years) And you talk a lot of sense as to their usage.

However, you dismiss my 'Uninformed' comment, I feel it was valid. It was in regard to your misleading statements about mesh in Rabs bivis:

Edited by MoleJ on 03/10/2013 05:01:32 MDT.

Mole J
(MoleJ) - F

Locale: UK
Bivi on 03/10/2013 05:02:39 MDT Print View

David U

I have no doubt you have a lot of bivi experience. (I have lurked these forums for years) And you talk a lot of sense as to their usage.

However, you dismiss my 'Uninformed' comment, I feel it was valid. It was in regard to your misleading statements about mesh in Rabs bivis:

That's because Rabs bivvies are made to be used the way bivvies are supposed to be used: high altitude mountaineering.

A quick glance at their current web page shows 5/11 models with mesh. Inc high altitude models. http://rab.uk.com/products/equipment/bivis.html

and:

The Uber Bivy is a tent.

It most obviously is NOT a tent unless you really think that many other brands models hooped and meshed bivis are tents too (inc those by Rab/ID/Terra Nova etc)

Agreed, Your referral to soldiers pack weights is a digression, and irrelevant as to where they use their bivis.

For nearly 30 years I've seen plenty of folk here in the UK happily using gtx bivis (in rain too!) and dealing with the downsides. Due to where I live, never higher than 4000' ;)

As to the Agressive impression I had, maybe that is something lost in translation. My apologies if so.

Michael Duke
(mpd1690) - F
My thoughts on 03/10/2013 08:25:41 MDT Print View

Based on the op's criteria, I would suggest not getting a bivy. If you are getting a trailstar, just get an inner nest.

You want:

If I wanted to get a bivy for sleeping underneath a tarp, what's the most breathable? I'd love one with foot venting options, and a LOT of space. I'm tall and I like to dry gear out next to me.

That is going to be a bit much for a bivy. You won't be able to dry clothes in a bivy. Too much condensation will form. The best you can do is keep clothes from freezing by tossing them into a ziplock or throwing them inbetween, your groundsheet (which I think would be a bit redundant) and your bivy. a bivy doesn't have a lot of room. An innernest does. Just get a fabric one. No need to deal with the downsides if a bivy. I am a bivy user, but you seem like you would do much better with an inner nest.

Edited by mpd1690 on 03/10/2013 08:29:29 MDT.