So I'm loving the look of the new MLD Mini Trailstar, and I plan on ordering one. I also love camping in storms... I think I'm gonna pick one of these up for when my hammock is a liability.

If I wanted to get a bivy for sleeping underneath a tarp, what's the most breathable? I'd love one with foot venting options, and a LOT of space. I'm tall and I like to dry gear out next to me.

I need it to protect me from wind spray under the edges of a tarp, bugs, and saturated ground, although I will have a thin tyvek groundsheet.

Under 16oz is a plus, but not a prerequisite.

Price is no consideration.


Thanks!!

Edited by mdilthey on 03/04/2013 10:33:18 MST.

Mld bug bivy




You kill me dude! :)
Zpacks
Mld
Ruta?
Google that stuff- search "bivy" on bpl

You aint dumb... All the answers are on the box that you are typing on. You just have do do a little work instead of asking the same ol q's that have been asked since the dawn of time

Ttdr vs smdld anyone?

Edited by WoodenWizard on 03/04/2013 11:08:38 MST.

While I can't tell you which bivy is breathable, I can tell you that the MSR AC Bivy is not very breathable or water tight.

I purchased the AC Bivy to hopefully replace my 2.5 lb USGI Goretex Bivy. It's plenty big for me ( 5'6" 180 lbs ) plus my gear. But it isn't as breathable as I had hoped. I spent about an hour in it in the backyard. Temp was only 38 deg. And within an hour I had drips forming above my head. I'm not particularly bothered by this cause the drips tend to roll down the sides under my sleeping pad and away from my sleeping bag. And I'd rather be warm and wet, than cold and dry. But that's just me, maybe. SO I had hoped it would more breathable, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

Additionally, because you enter the bivy from a top-side zipper, it's difficult to keep it dry inside without a tarp. ( I like to bivy without a tarp. ) To keep the water out, you have to carefully position the top of the bivy to overlap the entrance zipper and be sure to keep the top of the bivy higher than the middle so that the water is channelled away from the mesh opening.

I did try my trick of washing the bivy in tekwash to see if there was perhaps dust and residue clogging the membrane that was left over from manufacture. Unfortunately there was no change. I still had drips forming within an hour and I suspect that the condensation would increase as the temperature drops.

Perhaps not the answer you were looking for. I'll be interested to see if anyone has found a breathable bivy the UL range.

-daniel-

It's not a stupid question. Check out the work they did in the Patagonia thread. Some forum users do quantitative tests on breathability. I want to know the difference, quantitatively, between Gore-Tex, e-Vent, and all the little proprietary spin-offs. Someone has a fabric that is slightly more breathable than the competition at a low weight. All bivy bags are "good enough," one is "better."

It's a serious question. if you can't answer it, don't worry about it!

Daniel, thank you for the heads up. I will cross it off my list.

Edited by mdilthey on 03/04/2013 11:50:58 MST.

Check out Borah Gear. They have some bivys with M50 and M90 material.

A bug bivy with a full netting top would probably be the most breathable, but I don't think that's what you're looking for?

Look at Miles Gear: http://milesgear.com/

The upper material he uses is very breathable and waterproof (see the "Uber Bivy" page for more fabric details). He can pretty much build you whatever you want.

like he said. a search on this site will give you plenty of info. That's always the first port of call IMO.

But your question isn't totally clear anyhow.


You're talking about sleeping under a tarp with a bivi, but seem to be asking about WPB bivis judging by the 16oz figure (which is lower than any of the most breathable available in that class (i.e. something made of eVent)
Lighter than 16oz wpb's tend to be made of less breathable coated fabrics.

Water resistant topped bivi (with waterproof base) is likely more appropriate and more breathable than WPB. And much lighter. weight range 5-9oz.

Travis linked to one maker.

FWIW this is my next MYOG project once I finish my sleeping bag/quilt conversion.

http://www.rei.com/product/832336/sol-escape-bivy

I'm going to add a bug net and see how it works out.

I CAN tell you that none of the most breathable bivys will have a membrane.

Just my 2 cents,

You guys that post "run a search" are not being helpful. I don't know if you noticed but this forum is not over run with endless posts.

Since I have been a member here I have seen the post count drop off significantly, and one reason is the attitude some members have on here.

We are all hikers here and unless someone is an obvious troll, either be helpful or don't post.

OP, sorry. No help on the bivy but good question.

Edited by bfayer on 03/04/2013 12:46:35 MST.

So, if I had to do it over, I'd try the Aurora Bivy since it's using Goretex, and I have plenty of experience with that fabric. It's .5 lbs heavier than the AC Bivy, but it's 1 lb less than my USGI bivy. Perhaps it's a good compromise solution.

I also really like the looks of the Uber Bivy. That is a great suggestion. It's the same weight as the Aurora, so it's a toss-up for me which I would choose.

Regarding the snarky retort of the previous poster. I think it's totally OK to re-ask previously answered questions. Products change, philosophies change... Plus it's helpful when I am researching products to see several positive comments from the past and positive comments in the present. It shows a track record of good performance and good experiences. and as a rule, I think we should always be nice to each other... Kumbaya and such :)

Plus, I have no clue what or who RUTA is. I've pieced together many of the acronyms that are used for the elite UL suppliers referenced in these forums, but it seems I run into new ones every day. Perhaps there's a thread somewhere of UL supplier acronyms? Or am I subjecting myself to ill will just for asking? Luckily, it's true that a search on BPL led me to the http://rutalocura.com website. But come on, there's no reason to be disagreeable. In my opinion: In then end, we are all the same. Fighting with each other is like fighting with yourself.

sincerely,

-daniel-

Suggesting that somebody who "isn't fooling around" do a little research before posting is snarky? Sorry.

And sorry for misspelling "Routa". Those are just the first three companies that popped into my elitist head.




Zpacks Quantum Bivy 5oz. $175








ooooohhhh Loooord.... Kum By Ya


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=6796

Scroll down for Nisley's explanation of air movement

Edited by WoodenWizard on 03/04/2013 13:13:18 MST.

I thought my answer had useful content?

It appeared to me that the OP and subsequent post showed a lack of understanding about types of bivi/fabrics. I hope my post helped shed some light. Also my advice to do a little research was meant to be helpful.

That was my intent.

Not to reprimand anyone, as some seem to think necessary ;)

Integral Designs all event overbag is the gold standard.

Edited by stephenm on 03/04/2013 13:46:26 MST.

To Jeffs: I stand corrected, I must have miss-understood the intent of your posts. I just noticed by your locale that we're probably neighbors. Hope you've enjoyed the dry weather.

Sincerely,

-daniel-

1. I did do research. I know what MLD and Integral Designs are making, and I know Zpacks makes split bivy's with a water resistant top and a bathtub bottom. I also know there's a sea of bivy's from non-cottage companies and all use independently developed fabrics touted as "breathable." I have no idea which stand out.

2. I read the entire most recent thread on bivy breathability, but it's much older. Every company seems to be launching redesigns this spring, I have seen new tents from three companies alone, and new sleeping bags from one as well.

3. Unhelpful is assuming since you yourself found out over the course of a few months or years, I must have too, and otherwise, I have failed to do enough on my own. Agree with everyone calling a few users out for being snarky- save it. At the risk of sounding cocky, the amount I contribute to other people when I have good info earns me the right to shortcut straight to the experts once in a while.


Now, in case I'm being unclear...

What I'm looking for is to know

1. Which fabrics are Water-Resistant/Breathable and which are Waterproof/Breathable. I know Pertex is the former and Goretex is the latter, any other examples worth knowing about? I'm fairly certain I want the former, since I'm using a tarp. I want the bathtub waterproof bottom (hopefully tough stuff) and a nice, light, water resistant top for wind spray and bugs. And good netted venting so I don't condense all over myself.

2. What are the low-weight options that fit what I'm looking for, in either the WRB or WPB category?

3. Anything I'm wrong about philosophy-wise when it comes to a bivy. I have never used one. Maybe I need more than I think for sleeping in storms. Remember, this is a New England storm camping kit, up to 50MPH gusts (The trailstar goes to 60mph).

Edited by mdilthey on 03/04/2013 14:01:24 MST.

I'll echo a couple of the other commenters...

If you're considering a shelter like the Trailstar (or Trailstar mini), these provide a good bit of coverage so you don't need to rely so heavily on a bivy for weather protection. Instead it's main purpose with a shelter like this is to offer some wind/bug protection, perhaps a little splash protection and can serve as your groundsheet (no need for the tyvek then).

Because these bivy's aren't doing full weather protection duty, folks opt to go for a lighter water repellent but breathable (DWR) bivy over a fully waterproof (WPB) bivy. The DWR style bivys tend to weigh significantly less (5-6oz is pretty standard) than WPB bivy (probably most start around 16oz and go up from there).

You still get a waterproof floor (usually silnylon or cuben) with the various DWR bivys but the top half of the bivy is constructed out of various materials that tend to breathe better than the waterproof fabrics but that actually still also do a pretty good job at repelling light spray, spindrift, etc.

Lot of top materials to choose from in this regard... pertex, M50, M90, etc. I'm not sure on how they rate compared to one another, my hunch is that in the real world they're all fairly comparable. Of course the most breathable of all is a bug bivy (solid silnylon or cuben floor/sides with bug net top).

If you truly want a fully WPB bivy, I'd agree with Stephen that an eVent bivy is the way to go.

If you want to look at DWR bivys, most of the cottage companies offer their own version. I have a bivy from Katabatic Gear. My GF has one from Borah gear. Both serve their purpose well.

A couple of final notes... you mention being tall:
- Most of the cottage gear makers offer their bivys in various length and width options, so you can get it scaled to your liking.
- I've read somewhere (perhaps the Trailstar mini thread) that the trailstar mini might not be big enough for taller folks. Maybe check with Ron at MLD before you commit to this shelter... or go for the "normal" Trailstar. I use one and love it; although I have yet to use, or need, a bivy with it.

Edited by NickB on 03/04/2013 14:19:58 MST.

". . . loving the look of the new MLD Mini Trailstar, and I plan on ordering one. . . .
If I wanted to get a bivy for sleeping underneath a tarp, what's the most breathable?"

The miniTS is of course smaller than regular TS and Ron Bell has said it may not work well for people taller than 5'10". Why not get the full Trailstar for 2.5oz more and then not worry about having to bivy at all? Coverage is good with Trailstar, you're not going to get splatter if you set it up right, just get an inner net and you're good to go. You'll have (1) no worries about breathability, (2) more space, and (3) much less than 16oz weight. See BearPaw Pyranet, Ookworks trailstar designs, MLD's bug bivy, and I assume inner nets like MLD's and SMD's Serenity net tent can be made to work without much problem.

I don't think you'd need bivy bag merely for splatter coverage with mini-TS, either, but maybe it's hard to tell at this point.

Stephen, it looks awesome but there's no bug net from what I can tell. That's a must for me; I hate sleeping with critters and I don't find headnet sufficient at night.

Any similar ones?

Pertex makes wpb stuff -- pertex shield I believe.

http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=893

I use a waterproof breathable bivy made by MLD out of eVent and Cuben with a mesh window. I don't use a tarp though. It weighs something like 12 ounces.

If I was to use a tarp I would to ably just use some type of mesh netting for bug protection since your tarp, your bag, and your Tyvek ground sheet should give you protection from the elements. I prefer to use a tent instead of all this though. It's lighter and less complicated. Maybe I'd think differently about tarps if we didn't have bugs around here.

Edit to note that I don't use my bivy in the tent. Usually the bivy for light and fast overnighters. The tent for everything else

Edited by 7sport on 03/04/2013 14:21:06 MST.

Thanks for the info, guys. here's what I'm thinking.

Perhaps I'm going to end up going for the Trailstar full over the Trailstar Mini, but I'm a side sleeper that doesn't mind curling up. It would bother me to not be able to stretch out my legs inside a bivy, but in a tent it wouldn't bug me at all. I've slept in some confined spaces before. I'm generally a very, very easy sleeper and nothing wakes me up.

I'm going to stray away from full bug bivy's. Maybe I'll own one in the future, but not for this purpose. The "fun" (clearly Type 2) of going out in a big thunderstorm or early fall hurricane and sleeping in a field or clearing is facing the elements and winning, NOT getting wet. I think the Tarp does 99% of the job, but just in case I can't get a good pitch because of my site, or in case water saturates around me, I want good coverage from my bivy above and below. I don't need sustained exposure waterproofness, but I can be talked into eVent, as my understanding is that this is the best WPB fabric since it has pores.

Phew. Getting carpal tunnel over here.

I'm looking at the bags from integral Designs, but I think only the Spartan Bivy has bug netting. If someone knows otherwise, let me know.

Otherwise, I'm looking at the MLD Superlight Bivy at 7.5oz, but I don't know how waterproof the silnylon bottom is and I don't know what "Endurance" fabric has in the way of comparative strengths and weaknesses.

I have yet to find an e-Vent bivy with a bugnet. If you know of one, let me know! If I missed it in previous reccomendations, I might catch it in a minute...


Thanks for the help!

Regarding waterproof, water resistant or mesh top.

Be aware that the mesh top style will be much more comfortable for 3 season use. Full coverage bivys are hot, stuffy and can trap condensation.

If a full mesh top scares you, maybe the SMD Meteor? But even that can be too stuffy in the summer.

I find that under a full coverage tarp, a full coverage bivy is overkill.

A mesh top/bug net/bivy will be much more usable.
There are a lot of good bug nets out there that have bathtub floors to protect from wet ground and splash.

First point: get the full size Trailstar. I'm a hair under 6 feet and the fully was just long enough on some occasions.

Second point: define your use. You will not need a bivy for rain protection in a Trailstar. A tarp is another question. If you want bug protection, a groundsheet and the Gossamer Gear bug canopy will be fine.

Third point: If you're out in 30+ mph winds in the Trailstar you might want a bivy or overbag for wind protection if it's chilly. The cat-cut edges make it pretty hard to seel the side unless you have snow to work with.

Fourth point: a WPB floor will make a pretty big difference in breathability compared to a sil or cuben floor and the same top material.

Fifth: Pertex is a company which makes many fabrics. Quantum, often used in bivy tops, is pretty darn breathable.

I don't think you guys are understanding me, or reading my posts. Which is fine, I mean, I talk alot, I'd ignore me too!

I'm specifically buying this setup for conditions where my hammock is unusable due to high winds, intense rain, and the risk of falling branches. I am buying this for cold, wet, windy storms in the middle of clearings.

So!

I DO want full coverage and NOT a bugnet, because of the wind drafts and the associated spindrift and spray. Thank you for the suggestion of a full-coverage bugnet, but that is something I don't need help deciding on. If I want one of those I'll get them but it's irrelevant.


To the point of my OP, please feel free to recommend full-coverage bivy's made of WRB or WPB fabrics from reputable manufacturers. I'd love to hear of your experiences with condensation.

Thanks!

Hi Max,

It's pretty easy to make bivies, and if you can't sew or don't have a sewing machine there are tapes and glues that work decently.

If i was making a UL bivy for the conditions you are describing, i would probably use Momentum 90, Pertex Quantum, Nobull, or similar fabric to these.

And while you don't like the bug netting suggestions, personally i would at least make the middle of the top layer out of that to increase breathability. Keep the feet to knees, and upper shoulders to head area out of the first mentioned type fabric for adequate, extra rain protection.

Bottom can be Tyvek homewrap if you want to keep costs and condensation down. But then again, you said price doesn't matter, so sure go with eVent.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 03/04/2013 16:21:51 MST.

Max,

In those conditions I would be using a Trailstar with a fully Wpb Bivy if below treeline, if above treeline I would pack a proper tent.

A Bivy with a Dwr top will do also.

So Max, you probably have seen my piece on bivy's and condensation

http://40yearsofwalking.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/the-bivy-condensation-conundrum/

There are a number of references at the bottom including on discussing fabrics (#'s 9-11)

The bottom line as has been suggested above is the best bet is an all event bivy (the ID all event bag now discontinued). Even though it may appear that there are new offerings this spring there is still no holy grail fabric or design wise. Dave Miles tyvek and polypore bivies appear to be very breathable but not very light.

You are on the right track with the ID bivy's and maybe something from RAB with event. I am glad that $ are no concern. The MLD cuben/event is the lightest and maybe fit your needs most. Ron could probably put more mesh in around your head if you want. But I now see that it is not even on the website anymore, even at $300+ for a bivy.

There was great discussion of bivy's and condensation in difficult conditions started by David Ure but I don't have it bookmarked.

Dave U.s thread


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=54121

Thanks Jeffs, that was the thread.

Just weighed my MLD Bivy.

It's 10.7 ounces.

Fully waterproof eVent top with a sleeve for a wire hoop.
Cuben fiber bottom
Side zip fore easy exit and entry
Full bug net window that zips separately from the eVent so you can leave it open with just bug netting for clearer nights.

Not as breathable or lightweight as some of the other fabrics, but there is anecdotal evidence that it performs better in certain weather conditions.

I would love to buy an MLD Full e-Vent bivy, but I don't see it on the site. What other recourse do I have for finding a full eVent bivy?

It looks like the way to go for me.

Saw a Rab eVent bivy on the buy/sell forum today.

Heres an interesting thread about bivys in alpine conditions


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=73271&skip_to_post=624786

I don't mind keeping my eyes open, but others are often faster. Maybe I'll keep putting up a WTB request.

Otherwise, anyone know how the cottage eVent bags compare with Outdoor Research's gore-tex bags? Looking at the 16oz Aurora bivy. I don't have actual knowledge as to how eVent compares to Gore-Tex.

I can also add a pound and get an OR Bivy with the huge wire frame. I mean, I'd rather have an MLD....

"Heres an interesting thread about bivys in alpine conditions


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=73271&skip_to_post=624786"


Haha, that's great Jeffs.
Max, the guy in that thread seems to have an abundance of knowledge about bivy bags. You should read it.

Like I said, I do my research ;) My friend did Katahdin to Washington with a Gore-Tex one from OR. I asked him how the condensation went in the higher-altitude areas and the previous winter.

Just because I know about condensation doesn't change the OP of wanting to know which has the least. I don't know why Jeff is on a little campaign against me in this thread, but it's easy to separate helpful posts from useless ones ;)


If the intent here is to imply that I'm asking questions for no reason, I would wonder what my motivation would possibly be....

Edited by mdilthey on 03/04/2013 17:52:54 MST.

Waterproof/breathable bivy sacks were ultralight "bombproof" solutions back in the 1990s, when solo tents were 4 lbs. I used only bivy sacks for a few years (no tarp or anything) but they aren't exactly camping. Even with the GoreTex, never had much of a problem with breathability / moisture in three season plus, down to the low teens in Fahrenheit, but I was less fussy 10 yrs ago. Add: my experience was high Colorado summers and a New Mexico winter

Pros:Extremely snug when weather comes in and I slept very well.

Cons: It's an isolated feeling from the environment though since when zipped up the bivy wall is right in front of the face... all night long, even for one of the Outdoor Research with "gator mouth" frames on their Advanced Bivy. Getting in and out in the rain can be a pain, so I was thinking a small tarp before getting sick of my bivy and selling it several years ago..

They work great for mostly sleeping (after all, they are designed for climbers to use them exposed up high) and with cuben fiber, there's now only a little weight penalty to adding a tarp. May need one to get in and out in the rain. A smaller tarp is more efficient weight-wise but if you decided to sell a Trailstar, there's always gear swap. One neat thing about a bivy is cooking breakfast while still lying in while the rest of the party was huddled around the campfire. They had to break down their tents, I just rolled it all up. If you decide to go with just a tarp or tent later, the waterproof/breathable bivy makes a pretty neat winter shelter.

Ed: Add (see 1 para)

Edited by hknewman on 03/04/2013 18:52:52 MST.

I can't find the thread at the moment but someone on BPL previously mentioned that they regretted purchasing the cuben over the silnylon MLD superlight as it wasn't holding up for them. Too bad the MLD eVent Soul Bivy is no mas. That was a bomber looking bivy for 16oz.

I sent Ron an e-mail to see if he was still whipping them up.

Hey Ian.

I have a Soul with cuben floor. The floor has held up well for me. Prior to this I had the silnylon floor version, but never put it to use before jumping on the upgrade. The nice thing about the silnylon was that it packs up smaller than the cuben. They both weighed about the same (sub 12oz) but the silnylon floored one lacked the size zipper.

The cuben feels more robust in hand than the silnylon did, but maybe the cuben on the soul is heavier duty than that on the superlight.

I try to bring a 1/8" CCF ground sheet to protect it when I can - but that's not always the case if I'm trying to keep pack volume to a minimum.

"Waterproof/breathable bivy sacks were ultralight "bombproof" solutions back in the 1990s, when solo tents were 4 lbs."

An therein lies the problem. It's hard for me to justify buying a stand alone bivy system like the OR Advanced Bivy Sack or USGI bivy at 2.5 lbs when I can achieve the same result (with better comfort) with a Mid and ground cloth for half the weight.

The MLD superlight appeals to me as at 5.5oz it replaces a bug net and ground cloth and in some cases saving me weight but once I start shopping the REI, OR, BD, etc bivys which are pushing >16, 24, and even 40ozs the perceived benefit quickly disappears in my mind.

Only exception I can think of are camping in situations where a minimal footprint and quick deployment/recovery are in order.

keep an eye out for an integral desings unishelter in event. they made them for a couple of years and they show up on ebay and some of teh other outdoor boards evey once in a while. you might also try some of the retailers who may still have one in stock. integral desings makes a couple of diffrent event bivies currently, none of wich are full event. as far a weight goes, my id full event overbag is about as simple as it gets, and it's just over a pound. it will be tough to break the 1 pound barrier with a full event bivy that has any sorts of features.

That's good to know; I don't own any cuben products yet and I'm in the market for a few of these items. I'm sometimes torn between buy once cry once and othertimes just cutting a corner here or there so I can drop a couple Lbs quicker. I'm sure diligent site selection helps with either fabric as well and who knows what that bivy was subjected to.

I'll try to find the thread later but I've done so much web surfing for bivy reviews and there is so many threads to wade through it may become mission impossible.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 03/05/2013 07:12:23 MST.

If I can't get in touch with Ron about getting a Soul, I'll think about the superlight. I liked the Rab one on Gearswap but I think I value bugproofing too heavily. The price, weight, and materials are right, but it's wide open. I have been to mosquito hell and back.

It's a pain that so many good bivy's aren't available. I wonder if this points to a flood of new designs in late 2013, before winter...

I dont want to tell you what you want or dont want, but I think at 6'-2" you would be happier with the regular trailstar than the compact version.

Secondly, you shouldn't need a bivy for weather protection with the trailstar as it has great protection itself. I think that if you wanted something for any slight spray or wind you would be better suited with a breathable top with DWR such as Pertex, Momentem, etc.

You might have problems with condensation in the humid east coast with a bivy and that will be even worse with a less breathable top like eVent or Gore Tex. Of course YMMV.

Thanks Bradford. I'm on the same page as you on the Trailstar after talking about it previously in the thread. Also, I'm feeling you on that, but I got talked into eVent specifically. Do you think it's still significantly less than something like Pertex?

Does anyone know anything about the "Endurance" fabric MLD uses?

Endurance IS Pertex

Endurance and Shield as WPB membranes from the Pertex company

Quantum is by Pertex also, but its a water resistant nylon, not waterPROOF

MLD Superlight it is, then. Thanks, everyone! Much obliged!

Pretty sure MLD Endurance is not Pertex. I believe it's one of the iterations of M50, not a membrane fabric.

Ryan

Well whoever named it needs to watch out:


http://www.pertex.com/fabrics/endurance/

Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

Edited by mdilthey on 03/04/2013 20:42:03 MST.

You're right 10X10 DWR nylon

I guess cause its not a membrane its not copyright infringement?

We can all learn something here LOL

What does that mean as a description of the fabric's qualities?

DWR not WPB

err sorry

water resistant, not a waterproof membrane

Similar to Pertex, gotcha.

Pertex is a brand

Similar to Pertex Quantum (i guess.. this is nearing the extent of my fabric knowledge. maybe more similar to Pertex Microlight... dunno)

"Which fabrics are Water-Resistant/Breathable and which are Waterproof/Breathable. I know Pertex is the former and Goretex is the latter, any other examples worth knowing about? I'm fairly certain I want the former, since I'm using a tarp. I want the bathtub waterproof bottom (hopefully tough stuff) and a nice, light, water resistant top for wind spray and bugs. And good netted venting so I don't condense all over myself."

Keep in mind there are different types of "Breathable" and different levels of water resistance. For breathable fabrics you have vapor permeable and air permeable.

Vapor permeable fabrics have membranes that absorbs water like paper. The water once in the membrane works its way to the outside where it again turns to vapore and is carried off. Air however will not flow through it. Most WPB fabrics that use polyurethane membrane are only Vapor breathable and they typically don't breath much until interior humidity gets high. Breathability specs for polyurethane WPB fabrics are typically well below Event. Also you won't see a CFM rating for polyurethane WPB fabrics simply because air won't flow through the membrane. Pertex Shield is an example of this type of fabric. I don't think vapor permeable Membrane fabrics are a good choice for bivy's

Air permeable fabrics like event have very small holes that allow air and vapor through but don't allow or make it very hard for liquid water to get through. Event has a hydrostatic head of about 25,000mm and a CFM rating of 0.5 (If I remember correctly). If you increase the breathability (higher CFM)the hydrostatic head goes down. So when you get to ordinary fabric such as Momentum 50 your hydrostatic head goes to almost zero and the CFM ratting goes very high.

"I'm specifically buying this setup for conditions where my hammock is unusable due to high winds, intense rain, and the risk of falling branches. I am buying this for cold, wet, windy storms in the middle of clearings."

Momentum 50 and Momentum 90 DWR fabrics without membranes. bivys made from Momentum are designed for use under tarps to protect against water spray. But based on your concern of rain in windy conditions I think you are looking for something more than DWR fabric. A fabric with some hydrostatic head would be better. Event would meet your needs. There are some Event Bivys on the markets but most weigh more than your 16oz target.

Tyvek isn't waterproof but with a hydrostatic head of 850mm for 1443R makes it much more resistant to rain them Momentum and possibly good enough to meet your needs. There have been some post on the MYOG forum about tyvek bivys made from little more than Tyvek 1443R and Tyvek tape that weighed about 7oz.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=46661 ).

I can barely sew, and I have no machine, so Tyvek is out. I feel like I'm right back where I started... Anyone have a recommendation for a Tyvek bivy or a first-hand experience with the MLD Superlight that contradicts the science?

Dude, despite your claims that you do your research, you must not read all the posts above. Tyvek/Polypropolene bivy from Miles Gear

http://www.milesgear.com/UberBivy.html

And my experiences with a MLD superlight is condensation nearly 50% of the time

http://40yearsofwalking.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/the-bivy-condensation-conundrum/

a quote from my own piece:
"I have scoured the internet and there is no miracle fabric, all bivies have condensation/frost from time to time but the ones with the least mentions of condensation are made of all eVENT like the Integral Designs All eVENT bag cover (now discontinued) and the OR Advanced Bivy, both with vapor and air permeable top fabrics. [8, 9, 10]

The ones with a breathable nylon top with a good DWR and minimal silnylon floors, but without high bathtub floors, are the next best. From reports there seems to be something about the waterproof bathtub floors that leads to more condensation. This is apparently why the ones made of all eVent (top and bottom) have fewer reports of problems with condensation.

The worst offenders are any of the polyurethane membrane/WPB materials that are only vapor permeable like full Gore-Tex, Montbell DryTec, Mountain Hardware Conduit, etc. I have used or been around many of these and they all have had bad condensation problems.

One of the things that seems to happen with the vapor and air permeable fabrics (eVent, Gore-Tex FLO2, Gore-Tex Respiration Positive, Exchangelite and the less waterproof Gore-Tex Dryloft now Windstopper [10]) is that the membranes are laminated onto fabrics, and many lined with Tricot, that seem to help wick or pass the moisture through the material. I feel that this is why my old OR bivy had so few condensation problems, it has an almost cottony feel to it. The problem with these fabrics is they are heavier and the lightest of these bivies on the market are 13 oz. and up, with most around 18 oz. and they are crazy expensive ($200 plus)."

I have a double bivy from Miles Gear - and while I've only used it a few nights, I've never had any condensation problems. On the other hand, I almost always had condensation with my Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2.

The upper material he uses is very breathable and waterproof; he describes it on the "Uber Bivy" page. The only downside is that it is a little bulky IMO, but this may be because he uses a Tyvek floor. The bivys come seam-sealed if you want and you have several options. He built in a mesh screen at the entrance for me.

" I am buying this for cold, wet, windy storms in the middle of clearings."

For these conditions I use a Duomid with a montbell breeze tec bivy (8oz) and completely waterproof.

Bivies by themselves will not keep you dry.

The Duomid is great in the wind and rain. The Montbell bivy handles any spray that comes in or flows under if the clearing becomes a lake.

The Montbell Breeze Tec breathes well and is lighter than event and costs less.
It doesn't have a full hood but you don't need it with the Duomid.

In the winter, for wind and snow I used the Integral designs Wedge Bivy which I picked up on ebay for 1/2 price.

Also Locus Gear in Japan has a new Pneuma Bivy eVent which is 10oz but $331 for the large. http://locusgear.com/products/bivys/pneuma-bivy-event

I actually put the Montbell breeze tec bivy in the bathtub with 2 inches of water for several hours and the paper towels I had inside came out dry. The seams are taped.

Are you looking for the most breathable and still waterproof or are you looking for the most breathable? Most breathable is no bivy at all (Ha). Most breathable and waterproof is eVent, and I would also argue more breathable than any fabric below freezing. At least this has been my experience.

--"I have scoured the internet and there is no miracle fabric, all bivies have condensation/frost from time to time but the ones with the least mentions of condensation are made of all eVENT like the Integral Designs All eVENT bag cover (now discontinued) and the OR Advanced Bivy, both with vapor and air permeable top fabrics. [8, 9, 10]

You say the OR Bivy is eVent but their site says GoreTex Respiration 3-layer fabric. Something I don't know?

I actually like the OR Bivy.

These days I don't take any bivy, I use my duomid, an epiphany quilt which can handle the spray on it's own and a large gossamer gear 2 oz plastic sheet and a lighter tyvek for making kites. Most trips the plastic stays in my pack but if it looks like it will rain heavy I use the plastic and raise up the perimeter.

I just bought a cuben pyramid shelter from Locus Gear in Japan.
Looking at their other products I saw they have an all eVent bivy and also a tyvek bivy.

Event:
http://locusgear.com/products/bivys/pneuma-bivy-event

Tyvek:
http://locusgear.com/products/bivys/pneuma-bivy-tyvek

No relation or affiliation, just happy with a really well made product and buying experience, pretty short waiting time and general advice I got.

The site is in Japanese but if you send the owner an e-mail he will answer any of your questions in English. You can probably also order that way.

I personally got a Bristlecone bivy from Katabatic gear (silnylon bathtub/pertex upper with mesh) and it is made incredibly well too.

Can highly recommend any of these three options.

Edited by jakuchu on 03/05/2013 16:05:26 MST.

I've been thinking about the condensation issue. I'm wondering if there are 2 factors involved. 1 would be the ability to transfer warm wet air outside the bivy ( aka breathability ). But the other factor might be temp differential between the outside and the inside of the bivy.

Since the air inside the bivy will always have some moisture suspended in it, I would expect there will always be some condensation collecting on the inside of the bivy. I would also expect that this mechanism is more pronounced as the temp differential increases.

This would explain why the USGI bivy seems to have the best anecdotal reputation for low-condensation. The USGI doesn't zip up all the way. Thus the temp differential is very low near the head of the bivy. Additionally it vents very well because it's not closed all the way. I took mine to 3500 feet in 25 deg F temps and I had no noticeable condensation at all. On this trip I did use a tarp, and there was condensation on the underside of it in the morning. But everything was dry in the bivy.

Perhaps the solution is to locate a sub 1lb bivy that has a clam-shell opening and only zip it part way? Again this is assuming no tarp. And I think the OP is thinking of needing a water-tight bivy as a contingency in case the tarp won't pitch properly ( or at all ) in high winds. I agree that there are lighter tent options than bivy+tarp if you're on a solo. I usually carry a tarp for hanging out with hiking buddies at camp. I'll end up carrying the tarp that we all share. Then someone else carries the stove to keep everything "fair and balanced". But for the OP's situation I think he's on the right track, because the same conditions that will prevent pitching a tarp, could prevent pitching the tent as well. Especially a UL tent that requires tight guylines to stay put.

Comments, thoughts, criticisms?

-daniel-

So this article answers most of these questions about standard Gore-Tex (a PU-PTFE) and eVent and eVent like PTFE only membranes (Exchangelite, Gore-Tex Respiration Positive, (used in some of the OR bivys), Gore-Tex FLO2 and Gore-Tex Windstopper

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00316.html#.UTYoajCG3fw

And some more details in this article

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/orwm_2011_wrapup_waterproof-breathable_technologies.html#.UTYrAjCG3fw

The best way to handle condensation with a bivy is to not use one. The history of bivvy use is for high altitude mountaineering which involves below freezing temps. Condensation freezes and the ice can be shaken off.

With sub 1 pound shelters and highly water resistant sleeping bag shells, as well as highly water resistant down, bivy use really has become obsolete for backpacking. There are no benefits apart from draft protection for use with a quilt. But even then, with the additional weight of a bivy, just use a sleeping bag instead.

I found this bivy per the recommendation to check out integral designs. It's on the tactical side of their products. At 28 oz. it's less than the USGI bivy, but heavier than the Uber bivy. But if you're skipping the tarp all together, I think the weight is acceptable. Just my opinion, of course.

Does anyone have any experience with eptfe? Does the explanation on Gore's website make sense? Or is it just more marketing nonsense? Or is eVent still a more ideal fabric for this application?

To be clear, the application is to have a waterproof / low condensation bivy for use without a tarp or tent.

( BTW I'm thinking the uber bivy would be my first choice now. )

http://www.fellfab.com/military/night-stalker-bivy/

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/venting/packaging/eptfe_membrane.html

What Dave U said and read the articles I reference above about the PTFE's and the PU-PTFE's

"This would explain why the USGI bivy seems to have the best anecdotal reputation for low-condensation."

This was my experience over the years with the waterproof USGI bivy as well. Once I learned not to breathe into my bivy, my condensation issues were almost none. Too bad it’s 2.5 lbs. I've always used synthetic bags with my USGI bivy so maybe a down bag would have a different experience.

I am trying to nail down exactly what you are looking for here...I think you are too.

You mention:
1)you are going to use the T.S. tarp when the weather is too nasty for the hammock or no trees.
2)you want something to protect your insulation from spray and wind chill
3)minimal condensation
a) not sure weather you need wbp or wrb
4)full coverage with a net window
a)no (minimal?) other netting
b)100% bug protection

I think bc of 1) you shouldn't need 4b (bc bugs typically arent around around in this weather) but I understand trips can span different bug/weather scenarios - maybe compromise with an open face bivy and a mosquito headnet?

I think if 2) is the main purpose: wrb material is the way to go. Id want a long zipper and the ability to suspend above your insulation. If it has integrated head netting I want to be able to unzip from above my head. I don't think anyone makes this so i'd see if borahgear or similar would make one to my specs.
But if you are willing to get past the bivy term i'd look at this inner made for the T.S's "normal" pitch:
http://www.oookworks.com/OookStar.html -- maybe you could get them to extend the nylon walls up much highter

If you are thinkingthe weather might ever be too much for the T.S. maybe consider the milesbivy or the locusgear event one(if it fits you).

Edited by jnklein21 on 03/05/2013 12:31:15 MST.

I also have no sewing skills to speak of. My first Tyvek bivy was made with no hood, no sewing, and held together by 3m super 77 and sealed with Tyvek tape. The only part I had help with is having someone sew the zipper on. Super easy, and the best part was I got to make it as wide/narrow as I wanted.

Then I got lucky and had my Mom sew me a Tyvek bivy with a trapezoidal foot box and hood (hurray for moms).

But, if you are thinking of an eVent bivy....the Pneuma eVent bivy by Jotaro at Locus Gear is dead sexy.

Max, if you want a really simple, easy, and very cheap solution read on: Buy one of the heavier duty Frogg Toggs ponchos that has the snaps on the sides. Get some 2 or 3mil plastic--cut to size.

Plastic goes on bottom, completely unsnapped Frogg Toggs goes on top, and stuff some under your feet to keep it there.

If you really want extra protection, create a "bathtub" out of the plastic by folding in the corners, then taping them. This will raise the sides. Easy to do.

To secure the Frogg Toggs poncho onto the top of your body, you can do several things, such as loosely tie some cord around the top of it, tuck some of the very top into your bag or shirt near the collar area, etc

The Frogg Toggs can do double duty as your day raingear too. Its QUITE breathable, definitely more so than even eVent. Also, it's fairly light weight. While i don't like supporting Walmart personally (& try to as little as possible), you can find the heavier duty Frogg Toggs ponchos there for like 10 dollars.

I previously made a bivy via sewing, and using some expensive WPB fabric, zipper, etc, and i really wish i knew then, what i know now, because if i start using tarps i will just do the above since i currently have 2 Frogg Toggs ponchos (one really light weight emergency one, and the heavier duty one with snaps).

Hey Alex, thanks for the articles. I look fwd to reading them. Hopefully you noticed the time stamp on my post.

Hey Dave, thanks for the advice. Perhaps I need to re-think the whole system.

sincerely,

-daniel-

"I've been thinking about the condensation issue. I'm wondering if there are 2 factors involved. 1 would be the ability to transfer warm wet air outside the bivy ( aka breathability ). But the other factor might be temp differential between the outside and the inside of the bivy.

Since the air inside the bivy will always have some moisture suspended in it, I would expect there will always be some condensation collecting on the inside of the bivy. I would also expect that this mechanism is more pronounced as the temp differential increases."

Temperature differential is part of it. You also need to consider body heat and dew point. The dew point is based on temperature and humidity. If the temperature is above the dew point no condensation will occur. If however the temperature drops below the dew point condensation will occur. Consider the following situations.

1 Very breathable bivy made of DWR fabric like Momentum. The high breathability of the fabric insures the humidity inside the bivy is likely going to stay just a little bit higher than outside. the high breathability also insures that any body heated air quickly gets out. This is a low temperature differential situation. If the air temperature drops to below the dewpoint water will start to condense outside and inside the bivy. You will get wet.

2. You keep the inside of the bivy heated so that it is always warmer inside the bivy than outside (A high temperature differential situation).the outside air temperature could drop below the dewpoint But do to the heat inside the bivy, the bivy stays dry because the inside stays above the dewpoint. You stay dry.

3. You are in a bivy made of waterproof fabric. Fabric that is not breathable. The temperature inside the bivy will be a little warmer than the the outide but humidity inside will increas because of the moisture released by your skin. A medium temperature differential situation. The depoint inside will increase thile the dewpoint outside stays stable You will get condensation inside because of the high dewpoint caused by the high humidity is above the temperature inside the bivy. Outside stays dry inside is very wet. This is a low temperature differential but high humidity ditterential situation. You will get wet in this situation.

4 you use a bivy made from WPB fabric that is Less breathable than DWR fabrics. Any additional humidity generated by your body creates goes outside. So inside humidity stays about the same as outside. The reduced breathability of the fabric blocks the wind insuring the inside temperature stays a little higher than outside. Outside the temperature drops below the dewpoint. Everything outside gets wet while inside the bivy stays dry. You stay dry.

As you can see it isn't just the temperature differential. You also have to manage moisture. A lot of people have been using DWR high breathable fabric to manage moisture. It doesn't take much effort to to find reports of condensation in DWR fabric bivys (situation 1). The Outside may be dripping wet due to condensation but the inside of your home is dry because it is heated (situation 2). Reading comments from those using event bivys I never see any comments about serious condensation. Is that because few people use Event bivys, or because Event makes it easy to get into situation 4? At night situation 4 is where you want to be. You will be warmer, dryer, and sleep more comfortably. Extreme weather changes may make it hard to stay in situation 4 in an Event bivy but fortunately Extreme events (very rapid outside temperature and humidity changes) don't occure frequently. And once the extreme weather is gone the Event bivy will start to dry out.

Edited by Surf on 03/05/2013 21:45:54 MST.

"I can barely sew, and I have no machine, so Tyvek is out."

"also have no sewing skills to speak of. My first Tyvek bivy was made with no hood, no sewing, and held together by 3m super 77 and sealed with Tyvek tape. The only part I had help with is having someone sew the zipper on. Super easy, and the best part was I got to make it as wide/narrow as I wanted."

There is probably a glue out there that will have a very high bond to the zipper and Tyvek. However if there is not you can rivet the zipper to the fabric or use staples. There are snapps out there that are not held in place by a rivet or a staple like mechanism.

Thanks John for the plug. I have a lot of bivy sacks out there and it's extremely rare to hear anyone talk about condensation. I would love to have a chance to compare it to an eVent bivy, but who has that kind of money. I know it blows away my GoreTex especially in freezing temps. If someone has an eVent bivy I would like to arrange a test. Please contact me.

By the way, I support MYOG since that's how I started many years ago. I can sell the top fabric for your projects. You just have to like white ;)

Edited by davidmiles on 03/06/2013 16:09:33 MST.

Thank you so much for the detailed analysis. This is so helpful!

sincerely,

-daniel-

Still not ready to MYOG. Sorry, but it's not the route I want to take. I appreciate the advice.

Not looking at the Frog Togs either. I'm also pretty sure what kind of setup I'm looking for, and it's Bivy + Tarp.

About bugs, some of the worst nights I've had with skeeters have been during rainstorms. They flock to a tarp and hang out. I'm not risking a headnet, I'm going for full mosquito coverage.

Thanks for the continuing information. I'm in the process of working through the posts.

If you're getting a full size TS, I agree with others that there's basically zero reason for a WPB bivy. Any non-WPB fabric will be far more breathable than the most breathable WPB, even Event. M90 from Borah gear is 80 bucks and you could get it made however you want.

" Any non-WPB fabric will be far more breathable than the most breathable WPB, even Event. "

While that's a true statement, that doesn't mean a more breathable fabric is better for use in a bivy when condensation is of concern.

This is a very good article,and so is this one.

~"Vapor permeable fabrics have membranes that absorbs water like paper. The water once in the membrane works its way to the outside where it again turns to vapore and is carried off. Air however will not flow through it. Most WPB fabrics that use polyurethane membrane are only Vapor breathable and they typically don't breath much until interior humidity gets high. Breathability specs for polyurethane WPB fabrics are typically well below Event. Also you won't see a CFM rating for polyurethane WPB fabrics simply because air won't flow through the membrane. Pertex Shield is an example of this type of fabric. I don't think vapor permeable Membrane fabrics are a good choice for bivy's

Air permeable fabrics like event have very small holes that allow air and vapor through but don't allow or make it very hard for liquid water to get through. Event has a hydrostatic head of about 25,000mm and a CFM rating of 0.5 (If I remember correctly). If you increase the breathability (higher CFM)the hydrostatic head goes down. So when you get to ordinary fabric such as Momentum 50 your hydrostatic head goes to almost zero and the CFM ratting goes very high."


Read this, it's on Page 3.

" Any non-WPB fabric will be far more breathable than the most breathable WPB, even Event. "

Yes but not in the conditions that you think with respect to eVent (as described earlier). As your body temperature goes up, the temp differential as presented as moisture is pushed through the bivy and condenses on top of the fabric. With eVent, that is a minor inconvenience. You wipe it off or it rolls off but you remain dry. With a non-WPB fabric, the fabric then wets out and gets you soaked.

I have used many bivvies over the years, including several eVent bivvies including the Integral Designs eVent overbag. With that bivy, I have never once, and I mean never, had internal condensation in temperatures ranging from 50F to -10F, in the snow, desert, and by water sources. I have been soaked in a bivy made of momentum fabric (MLD) and had condensation on the floor (70d pu coated) of an eVent bivy but never in that overbag.

Highly recommend reading some of the BPL articles on the subject and as well, reviews of specific eVent bivvies and clothing available on this site.

Going outside the box a little how about the TT Notch inner nettent that has partially solid sides?:

Edited by hes on 03/06/2013 12:39:12 MST.

The advantages with eVent bivys that I've read of seems to typically be below freezing (haven't used a WPB bivy myself, though I've made a few out of various DWR fabrics). If a primary you're wanting it is for mosquitos, I'm assuming it isn't for that cold of conditions. Some kind of nest or innernet seems a lot more appropriate than a bivy for what you say you want to use it for. A trailstar provides some serious coverage. Even though it doesn't pitch completely to the ground, you aren't going to get wet from blowing rain. Snow, maybe, in which case it might be cold enough that a synthetic overquilt would be more appropriate than a bivy anyway for moisture management and bugs probably aren't an issue.

People seem to be misinterpreting my purpose. You recommend something for one condition and then ignore a second condition. I need this bivy to do MULTIPLE things well, not just one scenario. It's not relevant if there are no bugs in the winter, my bivy needs to be bugproof.

A) As with anything, I'm not made of money. if I buy one system that works in three potential conditions, I'm way ahead than buying for just one condition.

B) I know that spindrift and wind are an issue under a tarp. Some people keep repeating "Just tie down your tarp tight!" but it's not quite that simple. A lot of terrain won't allow a "waterproof" tarp pitch. The bivy bag is my second layer of protection.

C) Redundancy in a shelter is useful if you're taking it for storms. If I can't get my tarp to pitch or if the conditions are too rough for it, and I have a bivy, I may just save my life.


So, Thank you for the tent suggestions and the advice, but I am still JUST looking for what's in the OP.

Thanks,
M

In fairness, nobody can read your mind. You seem to add requirements all the time that aren't in your original post. Moreover, if "price is no consideration" as said in OP, then having multiple setups should be an option. Just sayin.

Also, if you're now thinking of taking this setup into winter storms you might want to check on that. Trailstar is great in wind but I'm not so sure about snow. . .

Edited by hes on 03/06/2013 13:08:53 MST.

So will you be selling your hammock system since it doesn't cover all scenarios you might encounter?

Yeah, I mean, I didn't say anything about snow. I just feel like if you make a Bivy thread and someone reccomends a Notch, it's off-track. My OP is pretty clear. I'm getting two conflicting points of view; some people say eVent has the least condensation, and some people say Water Resistant materials are the most breathable. Nobody can back that up with anything other than opinion, which I already have in spades.

Maybe it's an unanswerable question. I feel like if I ask which down jacket is the warmest, someone has a chart with actual quantitative data, but ask about a bivy... and you get a whole spectrum of ideas, advice, chastising, etc.

I don't think I've added a single thing to the OP... Storms, blocking wind/rain under the tarp, breathable, bugproof. Not everyone is off-track but some people are.

Money is no object since the ceiling for a bivy is like $400. I'm happy to pay for a good bivy. What I can't do is spend $2000 on a multiple shelter system. Plus, on longer trips I need one setup to cover the spectrum.


I mean it when I say I appreciate the off-track stuff, I just need the on-track stuff more.


And no, I'm not selling my hammock. OP says, can't always use a hammock!

Edited by mdilthey on 03/06/2013 13:18:41 MST.

Max,
I can back up my very rare condensation claims with over 100 bivys in use.
Buy and Uber Bivy and take it out for a night in a nasty storm.
You will sleep warm and dry. If not, send it back, and I'll refund your money.
Sounds like a common sense approach to solve the question :)

Max,

I'd definitely take David up on that offer. How can you beat that?

No bivy will do what you are wanting very well in this range of situations.

This might suck the least at accomplishing the things you want:

http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage_int.nsf/0/77CDB11B04309DC6C1256F2B002E724D?opendocument

I couldn't find one for sale. mountainequipment.com has one with PU floor. Maybe MLD will make one to your specs. Either will likely be more expensive than 2 separate specialized products.

Actually, that offer extends to everyone. As long as you use the groundsheet and don't drag it through the woods, there will be no wear on the bivy. I've got over 25 nights in mine, with no detectable wear. I'm that confident that this bivy is a game changer. I love sleeping in storms :)

David,

The uber looks great and I'm tempted by the double as it seems my daughter might join me on the wonderland this summer. Is it possible to add a tie point to use in lieu of a hoop and if so, how much weight would I save by forgoing the loop?

Edit: What are the packed dimensions of the Double uber? I may have overlooked it but I didn't see that on your website.
Edit edit: If it was a snake it would have bit me. 6" x 18"

Edited by IDBLOOM on 03/06/2013 13:49:33 MST.

The conflict isn't the POVs...its your interpretaion. Breathability isn't the only determining factor for wetness inside bivy. If you use a goretex bivy in a thunderstorm (no tarp) it will fair much better than one made of m50.
I've had copious condensation on a net tent inner

Event is less breathable than typical wrb by an order of maginitude in most cases.

David Ure has posted multiple times that he doesn't get wet in Event..many others have posted the same elsewhere. You don't have to look hard for people saying wrb condesation happened.

There aren't CFM numbers for everything, but for quite a few.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=45026&disable_pagination=1

edit: Why don't you just buy the trailstar, take it out in a gnarly storm in the yard or on an overnight, and figure out what your needs actually are rather than theorizing on the interwebs without having used any part of the perfect system you're trying to put together.

Edited by brendans on 03/06/2013 14:02:25 MST.

I can't believe no one has mentioned a bivy made from Unobtanium!

An Unobtanium bivy would definitely will cover all those conditions.

you sir have won the internet.

>you sir have won the internet.

LOL

"An Unobtanium bivy would definitely will cover all those conditions."

Indeed. And it will float so no ground water issue. Alas, the OP has deemed that he is not made of money and hence, it will be out of his price range.

Excellent choice, however.

Honestly Max, like others are saying, it's tough to find one bivy that will perform all that you want it to in all kinds of conditions. A bivy with a solid top made out of a breathable water resistant fabric can work well in snowy or wet and windy conditions but can be a sauna in warm, buggy conditions. A bug bivy is great for warmer nights and/or bug season but might not provide enough protection from the elements in a really wild weather event.

To some extent, you're going to have to compromise somewhere; either accept some loss of breathibility in favor of more weather protection or accept a loss of some weather protection in favor of more breathibility. Only you can decide what's more important for you and your intended use.

Just as an aside, you could easily get one of each style of bivy (a bug bivy and a breathable DWR bivy) together for under $200 by ordering from someone like Borah Gear. There's probably others too. Then you have the flexibility to take whichever bivy better suits your anticipated conditions. Each one could probably weigh in under 7 or 8 oz.

You don't have to spend a fortune...

"Yeah, I mean, I didn't say anything about snow. I just feel like if you make a Bivy thread and someone reccomends a Notch, it's off-track."

I was the one who suggested the Notch inner nettent with partial solid sides, since you're so concerned about splash. I did not suggest a Notch; you purchase the solid nettent separately. John at BearPaw designs can also make reasonably priced inners out of materials of your choice.

Edited by hes on 03/06/2013 15:38:10 MST.

Anyone else scratching their head about why Max chose a second shelter for a specific set of weather conditions that itself doesn't work for those conditions?

So Max, why the Trailstar if it doesn't do the job you're buying it to do? And the mini trailstar at that...a shelter that isn't even released or tested yet

What Stephen said:

The Integral Designs eVent bag IS the gold standard of breathable bivy bags.

DISCLAIMER: Being of the "tenter persuasion" I need a bivy bag only for snow shelters and that requires a WPB bag.

Edited by Danepacker on 03/06/2013 17:00:07 MST.

" If not, send it back, and I'll refund your money.
Sounds like a common sense approach to solve the question :)"

David, you are very generous. I love these forums.

If the Uber bivy is the bivy for me, I'll figure it out in the long run, and I won't need a return because I don't doubt it's reputation will stand!

Hey guys,

I'm not ignoring anyone's advice, I'm not saying anyone's wrong. Don't get rowdy ;) I've seen threads go this way before. Relax!

I'll try to shore up a couple things:

1. I came here with a pretty good idea of what I was looking for, based on the areas I expect to go, the speed I want to set up at, the weight I want to carry, and the type of conditions I know exist (because I've been in them several times). Modularity is another factor. I didn't ask what the best option was because I didn't need to; I know what I'm ready to try out. A good tarp and a bivy. Other people do it, too, not just me.

My OP is specific!

2. People are latching onto whether I have money or not. Get over it! I'll take care of my finances, you can ignore that. I just wanted to imply that being a "budget" bivy wouldn't impact my decision, only functionality.

3. I now have some understanding that e-Vent is the best WPB fabric for this, and I understand the limits of ALL types of Bivys. All I'm trying to figure out is who's making an e-Vent bivy with a bugnet opening around the hood today.

That's it!



Read #3 again! That's the limit of my questions!





Remember that stuff I said in the OP? That was six pages ago. I have learned, and my opinion and expectations have grown, too. My OP is ancient history thanks to so many people's good advice.


I feel like it's falling on deaf ears, but THANK YOU for your help. Don't stop being helpful to ridicule me because you *think* I'm some fool who's ignoring advice and looking for a perfect shelter that doesn't exist.

Max,

I think your options are this - want UL and fairly breathable, go with any number of the DWR nylon 6 oz bivys out there. If you can live with less UL, but more breathable, give the Uber Bivy a shot. Given the fabrics involved I think it will breathe fairly well. It's also pretty roomy which I think was something you are looking for too. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong here, this is a long thread. :)

Worse case scenario - you buy the Uber Bivy and it sucks. Get your money back.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 03/06/2013 19:03:34 MST.

Thanks Ryan,

I'm already in touch with David about the nitty-gritty of the Uber bivy. It's almost a guarantee that I'm going to be testing it out.

Max,

Chill out mate :-) sounds like it an MLD event Bivy with bug net is what you want.
Have has Ron Bell got back to you yet?

Ron Bell has not, so I can't count on the MLD eVent bivy. I have looked at it before and I agree, it's a solid choice, but if it's unavailable I will have to look elsewhere.

For the price (almost 400 if memory serves) I'm sure it's a cut above most others. Or at least, it better be! Haha.

I've no first hand knowledge of any of these, but it looks like Exped, Rab and Locus Gear all offer eVent bivies. Most, if not all offer a style with bug netting over your face. You could probably contact the companies directly or one of their vendors (in the case of Exped and Rab) and have them special order one for you.

Nico,

If I don't get in touch with MLD, or if the Uber bivy ends up being slightly different than what I'm looking for, I'll start down that path. My last resort is to go to vendors and ask for custom orders, if there's an already produced bivy that looks right for me.

Normally Ron is fairly handy at replying, maybe try him on Facebook if you are a member.

I know Rab and Integral Deigns used make event bivys with with bug mesh.

Exped's site appears to be malfunctioning. The bivy page has rocks on it, but no products...

http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage_na.nsf/b43HomePageE?openframeset

Max, I just meant if the shop normally carries Rab or Exped but not the particular bivy model you decide you want, they can likely order one for you. Not suggesting you commission Rab to make you a custom bivy.

Re: Exped's site, try here:
http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage_int.nsf/0/77CDB11B04309DC6C1256F2B002E724D?opendocument

Note, this is from their international rather than USA site, hence the possible need for a "special" order or buy it from a UK or similar site and have it shipped.

Edited by NickB on 03/06/2013 19:29:38 MST.

Not the kind of bivy you are looking for.

more of a windsack.

a double bivy with a hemorrhoid, Ken?

The picture is the 2P, there is a 1P and it's okay. I like the look of almost every other eVent bivy I've seen a little more.

Also, can't tell if you're being sarcastic for obvious reasons... ;)

Looking closer at the Locus gear Pneuma Bivy. This could be a real contender, since it's super lightweight compared to a lot of the other Bivy bags. I sent an e-mail out to the company for details, since I don't speak japanese. If I can get one with a little more bugnet I might be sold. As much as I like the Epic, I think it might be more Bivy than I need; it's huge! But we'll wait and see.

Looks comfy eh?

"a double bivy with a hemorrhoid, Ken?"

Ken hasn't come with a double bivy in a long time....

But a total eVent bivy is available / in production by Locus Gear. No custom order needed.


edit - just saw the last post, cool.
I'm sure they will answer soon enough with an answer on a possible bigger ventilation window.

As an aside, you can also ask for different sizes for the eVent, as in the Tyvek bivy:
S: 204 cm long, 257gr.
M: 218 cm long, 282gr.
L: 233 cm long, 304gr.
(weights incl. stuffsack).

Edited by jakuchu on 03/07/2013 00:27:25 MST.

I e-mailed Locus. Will update.

I recently emailed Ron about his eVent bivy because I did not see it on his site anymore, and I was curious if he had stopped making them. He replied that he is currently out of eVent, but it is on order. The bivy should be back up on his site after he gets the fabric in.

I own a ID Bugaboo bivy and have used it in winter at about -10 C and in spring (5 C to 10 C). Haven't had any real condensation issues. In winter there was some condensation frozen to the inside but it was never enough to get into the downs of the bag. I haven't used the bivy in really wet or humid conditions.

Please note that if the outer layer of a membrane gets really soaked (should only happen if you just use the bivy in hard rain) it just stops breathing altogether and you will get condensation issues. It stays waterproof however.

Multi-layer membrane cloth will always be heavier then the non membrane stuff. And most of the eVent (and Gore or whatever) bivies seem to be made to be used without tarp as only shelter. If you know you're going to use a tarp I think you're better of to look for a bivy with a good DWR treatment and forget all about the real water proof stuff. I don't see how a membrane can outperform anything in humid and wet conditions if you don't need the full protection because you're using a tarp. If you are worried about getting soaked under the tarp I'd ask myself if the tarp is up to the job and if I should learn to pitch it better. Using the cannon of a full weatherproof bivy bag seems overkill under a tarp.

That said these bivy bags have their uses (summit assaults above treeline, emergency use, getting a place to sleep without spending time to set up a tarp, really small footprint), but sleeping below treeline in an area with reasonable sized solid ground isn't one of them - no matter the outside conditions.

Edited by karl-ton on 03/07/2013 06:47:06 MST.

I have both the ID Unishelter in Event and the original Big Agnes 3 Wire (if you do a search on these forums you will see my review / comparison of both). I use these during high altitude forays but never where I would or could experience rain. Getting in and out of them when it is raining is an enourmous pain and you will get wet like ANY bivy shelter (these are more small tents like the Uber Bivy).

Having said that, the Big Agnes 3 Wire is well under 2 lbs, does not require pegs, has a 1/2 length mesh door, and a full canopy of eVent. I wonder if this falls into the OP's requirements?

Hey Max,

I'm thinking you should be considering either the uber bivy or the integral designs alpine bivy.

Uber Bivy appears to be the lightest hooped bivy. This will give you plenty of room for your gear and drying your clothes overnight. Plus we have a commitment from the designer who has been field testing his own product. Requirements met: Water tight without a tarp, Bug proof, Breathable.

Alpine Bivy appears to be the only eVent bivy that is currently available online and meets the water-tight requirement. Plus it has many experienced supporters on BPL. The Mountain Laurel Designs bivy with a full eVent top would be great, but it isn't available now. If you're still shopping when it becomes available, I think it would be great to compare.

The alpine bivy is available 30% off on backcountrygear.com ( http://www.backcountrygear.com/alpine-bivy.html ). With that discount, the Uber bivy and the Alpine bivy are within $10 of each other. So your choice is between the Alpine ( the lighter one with eVent ) or the Uber ( a larger hooped bivy with the manufacturer's guarantee of breath-ability )

I think it's a good time to be shopping for bivies :)

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 03/07/2013 13:23:28 MST.

Did you check out Rab?

I don't understand why you'd consider a heavy, waterproof bivy. If I understand right, you will be under a trailstar. I would generally use no bivy under a trailstar. It covers a large area. Its easy to stay dry underneath. If I was going to carry a bivy for use under a trailstar, I think a bug bivy is plenty. At most, a bivy with a superlight dwr nylon top would be overkill protection-wise and way more breathable than any waterproof bivy.

So...for me, first option would be no bivy, second option would be a bug bivy, third option would be a light nylon dwr bivy.

So a Trailstar plus Hooped Bivy gets you to approximately 50oz with pegs and guyline.

What the hell is the point?

Locus bivy = 10.7oz
Trailstar = 17oz
Stakes = 0.4 x 5 = 2oz

Total weight: 29.7oz


Doesn't look like 50 to me! It's 1.8lbs. That's pretty light.

Edited by mdilthey on 03/07/2013 14:52:19 MST.

I agree. I'm not sure I see the point of getting and using both. It appears your rationale is for when you are in exposed conditions during bad weather. I would much rather just use something like a MLD Duomid. Bo bivy required and about as bomber as you can get at that weight. Not sure if it has been mentioned as to be honest I didn't read through all the posts as I have no desire to ever use a waterproof "breathable" bivy. Bivies were created for a very specific purpose of alpine adventures.

Aha - so the bivy 'Uber' bivy is not on the menu.

That lineup looks better. But honestly, just put a decent groundsheet down and ditch the bivy. Just a comment regarding weights. Seamsealed with attached guys and pegs to hold in windy weather the weight of my Trailstar was just under 24oz. You will still likely come in at almost 2.5lbs. Which is fine but again, at that weight why not just get a tent.....; )

What bag / quilt are you using or have you already mentioned that?

Just using a tent has been mentioned, and considered, but politely disregarded. To put it simply, you don't have the whole story. You're trying to categorize all the camping I'm going to do for the next 5 years by one question about one potential condition: a serious storm.

This is the shelter setup I'm looking for. I want to optimize the bivy/tarp combo for serious weather, but owning a bivy bag lets me do some serious overnight fast/light trips and endurance races, winter camping, and maybe sometime some rock climbing trips (I'm an amateur boulderer right now).

Owning a great tarp means everyone who says "Why not just use the Trailstar?" is correct. Yes, I will do LOTS and LOTS of trips with just the Trailstar. Don't worry.



I don't know if this thread needs to keep going every time someone sees the OP and then skips 7 pages and contributes something that's already been said. All the OP questions have been answered and I have e-mails in with three companies.

So, I'm all set. Thanks, everyone!

Edited by mdilthey on 03/07/2013 15:02:03 MST.

Edit: He's all set. No more questions.

Edited by karl-ton on 03/07/2013 15:05:18 MST.

Well, right now I just choose between a 20º EMS bag and a 45º MH Ultralamina, depending on temperature. The Ultralamina is light enough, but the EMS bag is just at 3lbs. It's a Solstice. 3lbs is pretty atrocious, but it's a great bag so I'll wear it out before I replace it unless I have a good reason to.

~"But why the bivy? And why a completely waterproof bivy that will give you condensation in humid conditions?

I don't have a Trailstar, but I thought they are pretty storm proof?"

Maybe the Trailstar is stormproof on a perfectly flat dirt driveway elevated above the floodplain with good drainage. I don't doubt it, actually. In real life, though, my campsite could be at a 20º angle, or it could be rocky and uneven, or it could be in a bit of a puddle. You never know. The bivy is supposed to act like a backup to the tarp for spindrift, wet ground, and the worst-case scenario of a torn tarp.

That's maybe 20% of the reason I picked e-Vent over DWR, too. If I'm gonna use a bivy as a backup, it might as well actually function as one.

By all accounts, e-Vent is pretty good. If they all have condensation, I'll get something that has close-to-least.


Edit: I answered your question anyways. :)

Edited by mdilthey on 03/07/2013 15:09:43 MST.

If I was going on a snow hole trip and was not 100% sure of the snow conditions I would bring a Trailstar and event Bivy,

Also it gives an option to sleep any where if the Trailstar could not be pitched for some reason.

~"if the Trailstar could not be pitched for some reason."

Is "I like to live dangerously" enough of a reason?

Fun in the Woods...

Above treeline is way better than the woods :-)

"By all accounts, e-Vent is pretty good."

Yep. It's still the best membrane when it comes to breathability. It has some drawbacks too (like not reacting well to oil and fat) but they are really not important for bivies. If you want to know more: http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/rainwear-how-it-works.html (I do hope such links are okay here).

For the people who use the full eVent bivies: Do you get trouble on wet ground with water pressing through? From all I've heard you get high pressure spots quite easy if you lie on it on wet uneven ground. That's why I would use a bivy that has a simple PU bathtub floor, but that might be pure paranoia and too much theory.

As previously recommended, I looked at the Rab bivies to see if they should be considered along side the Integral Designs Alpine Bivy and the Uber Bivy. From what I can tell, the Rab Alpine Bivi is a rebranded Integral Designs Alpine Bivy. Maybe someone can confirm?

Max, it looks like you ruled out the Uber bivy. Do you want to share some of the elements that contributed to this decision?

Finally, to restate in case any "bivy haters" ( hehehe, you know who you are.. ) decide to jump in.

The purpose is to look for a bivy that is:

water-tight in a surprise storm where a tarp and tent are difficult to pitch properly
bug proof
as breathable as possible

Of course correct me if ...

sincerely,

-daniel-

Thanks for your input Daniel!

I haven't ruled out the Uber Bivy. However, I feel like it might be a bivy for a different camper.

1) It's HUGE! I don't need that much space.
2) David Miles is excellent to work with, but I wouldn't want to flood him with a custom order unless my needs were already close to his original design.
3) The materials aren't exactly what I've come to look for after advice in this thread and PM's.

So, I might opt for it since it's so affordable and well designed, but if I can spend 3x as much for something perfect, I might shoot for perfect. I plan to use this bivy for the next several years, after all.

Just go with what your heart says buddy.

>Maybe the Trailstar is stormproof on a perfectly flat dirt driveway elevated above the floodplain with good drainage. I don't doubt it, actually. In real life, though, my campsite could be at a 20º angle, or it could be rocky and uneven, or it could be in a bit of a puddle. You never know. The bivy is supposed to act like a backup to the tarp for spindrift, wet ground, and the worst-case scenario of a torn tarp.
-----------------------------

Max, FWIW, the Trailstar is very versatile with its pitching options. It's also one of the most storm-worthy shelters on the market, besides the big beefy tents. Uneven, rocky, and brush-filled terrain, to an extent, are workable with the Trailstar.

It's main drawback is its large footprint, so if you found yourself in locations where there really was no real estate to set down on, you'd have a little issue.

But a more storm-worthy and adaptable tarp you won't find.

MLD used to sell this one but doesn't anymore. It has a cuben bottom and either M50 or M90 top. You can't see the ice crystals on the white cuben but you can on the black fabric. This was at temps in the high teens. Ice also accumulated on the threads that came through to the outside of the baffle stitching on the 15 degree Katabatic quilt I was using. I can see where VBL would have been useful here.

Hi Marc,

I don't mean to pry, but were you happy with your night in the Lite Soul Bivy? Did you stay warm enough?

Sincerely,

-daniel-

My Emergency Bivy is a great backup for if the tarp fails. Same performance fabrics, and able to handle the storm all night long. Downside is not enough room to get dressed in (for me) and not netting (but you could keep the bugs out). 11 oz with stuff sack.

Something that size with some netting might be what you are looking for. The hoops are overkill if you are under a tarp. You know the Uber will work without the poles. However 2 poles = 4.5 oz and unless you are the princess and the pea, you will have a hard time feeling that difference in your pack. They do add so much comfort that I can't leave them behind.

By the way, the quick video I added of the setup and packing of the Uber Bivy might help get a feel for the Uber Bivy size, and me :)

Edited by davidmiles on 03/08/2013 00:15:31 MST.

One recurring problem with the Uber Bivy. After a long day of hiking the comfort has been known to cause rapid sleep onset (RSO) in less than the 1.5-2 minute setup time. A little daily humor from our trip last summer.

Laziness is why I cowboy camp 90% of the time.

Daniel,
if I remember correctly Rab bought Integral Designs hence the similarities and also why the all event bivy is now no longer available from ID. The Rab Ascent and Sierra bivys are the closest options.

Terra Nova uses the Gore-Tex FLO2 which is supposedly a eVent clone in their Titan bivy too.

Here is Craig's comments on using the Emergency Bivy. Great addition for a quilt.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=6791

I have had ice like that in my bivy quite a few times and didn't consider it a problem. My sleeping bag never got wet beyond some ice or a few drops of water that could be brushed off. It may help that my sleeping bag has a DWR shell.

Dave,

Do you "soften" the tyvek of your bivies as I have seen recommended for creating a MYOG tyvek ground cloth? I was testing a sheet of tyvek I had softened in the washing machine for water-resistance under my sleeping bag with a traditional tarp for cover, and it wasn't good. I also tried to use the same tyvek as a tarp and switched it so that I had a traditional ground cloth, and it wasn't good either. Both setups leaked water. Tyvek on the ground developed little puddles all over it. And Tyvek on the top developed many little dripping spots by morning. Conditions? Since I was testing for water resistance, both test were at approx 45 deg F, in the Fall, with a constant light rain. I suspect the humidity was around 60% at night around 90% in the day. Think rainforest :)

After reviewing the results of my non-scientific test, I suspected that the leak-i-ness could have been caused by the process of washing the tyvek to make it "soft". I'm thinking from the pictures of your uber and emergency bivies that they have not been "softened", and thus may be more water tight.

While I'm here I'd like to repeat my comment that the miles-gear uber-bivy is my current favorite hooped bivy. I'd like to +1 Ian's idea to add a loop to the hood for the option to attach to a tree instead of using the hoop. Then the only special request I'd make is to sew in a double layer tyvek floor instead of using a separate tyvek ground cloth. Maybe this would be the Uber-Uber bivy?

Sincerely,

-daniel-

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 03/08/2013 11:03:40 MST.

Daniel,

Putting Tyvek in the washing machine damages and ages the fabric. My "softening" consists crumpling it by hand and then smoothing out by hand. I don't like Tyvek tarps because of the noise. Shaking the Tyvek goundsheet out and throwing the bivy down might be a little noisy, but once you are laying on it, it's not an issue. I've done some abuse studies on some Tyvek items to build my confidence in using it. As a mountain rescue volunteer, I'm determined to put out products that can be depended on in very bad situations.

I have added tie-loops on the top for some mountain bikers who did not want to pack the poles. The poles are 2.2 oz each and REALLY add to the functionality.

Better than sewing the double floor, you could just attach one with a few adhesive velcro tabs. My Uber Bivy has 25 nights and still waterproof and almost now wear.

You won't be disappointed after a night in the Uber Bivy :)

The velcro is a great idea!

I agree about the hoop. It really sets your bivy apart.

-daniel-

Just a quick note: I noticed that the Rab / Integral Designs Bivy is missing the bug netting that's included in the Uber Bivy. This may give the Uber bivy the edge in versatility and ventilation.

-daniel-

That's because Rabs bivvies are made to be used the way bivvies are supposed to be used: high altitude mountaineering.

The Uber Bivy is a tent.

Max, if you are still following this thread and if it hasn't already been mentioned you should consider a tyvek bivy. This is just about the most breathable material available so say some of the folks who report on these things here at BPL. I bought one from LAUFBURSCHE when I moved from a regular tent to tarp like shelters. Since it is relatively dry here in the Sierras I haven't used it much although I carry it often. I wanted a very breathable fabric with enough water resistance to protect against spray from a hard storm. The tarp is the first line of defense against moisture. The bivy, the way I use it is to protect indirect spray and swirling snow. Mine weighs between 5 to 6 ozs.

Edited by johnk on 03/08/2013 20:43:16 MST.

A bivy is a non-insulated back-packable shelter which requires no guy-lines and no stakes. Says me :)

And even if the Uber bivy is a "tent", it's not like it's a bad thing.

Sincerely,

-daniel-

Daniel, have you used a bivy before?

"Daniel, have you used a bivy before?"

I'm not sure of the purpose of this question. I have used many bivys and tents over the last 40 years. I know the Uber Bivy has many features of a tent, but I felt that it fit more in the bivy category due to the lack of stakes and guylines. I can throw it on the ground and get in with my gear and be sheltered in under 30 seconds. In that sense I would put it in the bothy bag category. You can put the Uber Bivy in any category that makes you happy.

No one shelter is the answer to all problems. I sleep in a real 4-season tent for multi-day winter trips. I carry and emergency bivy on day trips. That's why Rab, MilesGear, and almost every shelter company has more that one product.

Max, I'm sorry about all the sidetrack on your thread. I really only wanted to counter the myth that WPB fabrics have more condensation issues than DWR. I think many opinions come from experiences with older WPB technologies.

I'll stay out of this thread now. I will handle any discussion on the Uber Bivy over on Gear Deals where it belongs.

that uber Bivi is obviously a bivi. Its basically a bag with a self supporting hood.

5of the 11 bivis currently made by Rab have mesh doors/panels. Even 2 of the 3 that do look like tents;)


Dave U . sorry but I think your recent line is coming across as uninformed and a little aggressive.

Bivis are used in various kinds of terrains and regions as thousands of soldiers and many travellers will attest.

I've used various types bivi since the 80's ( more often on damp moorland/british hills or in woods ) ,

eVent +Rab Alpine)has been very breathable, but not amazingly more than my British army Goretex bag (which is gtx allround and very tough n heavy).

If it's just for a night , I often use a coated wpb fabric bag (Alpkit Hunka XL). Depending on conditions, sometimes it's dry inside, sometimes damp. with a syn sleeping bag, it's ok.


MAX

if, as it seems to me, you are wanting a system made of items which can be used separately, I'd suggest a light wpb bivi and a separate upper body net for when insects are about. One which could be hung to the tarp above your face. (like a big shaped elasticated drawstring noseeum net bag which you pull over your head down to waist) More room than a bivi screen, and leave at home when not needed.


Dave Miles. bivis look interesting. guess they are only in white? the emergency bivy looks tempting.

Edited by MoleJ on 03/09/2013 04:24:48 MST.

"That's because Rabs bivvies are made to be used the way bivvies are supposed to be used: high altitude mountaineering."

And trekking poles are for skiing, not hiking or setting up shelters people.

And you stove whackos out there, beer cans are for drinking beer not cooking dinner.

Innovation has no place in the lightweight backpacking community. These are the rules.

Dave U? Uninformed and aggressive?!

"And trekking poles are for skiing, not hiking or setting up shelters people.

And you stove whackos out there, beer cans are for drinking beer not cooking dinner.

Innovation has no place in the lightweight backpacking community. These are the rules."

Excellent point. Not to mention that Cuben was made for sails on sailboats.

Plus nothing can stop one from modifying and/or making improvements on gear, bivy sacks included. As some of you may have seen I have been preparing and debating the variables of my new tarp/bivy shelter system. As of now the whole thing all in weights 355g for total enclosed protection from elements and bugs/critters.

I think once the issue of condensation is either solved or made minimal enough to not really be an issue for a given bivy, what a bivy brings to the table for backpackers, especially UL ones, can't easily be ignored. Aside from the potential for a lot of weight savings, a bivy also provides a bump (albeit a small one for most bivies) in warmth. It also blocks drafts/wind, rain spray from the edges of a tarp, dew/mist, and also protects your sleeping bag and sleeping pad (provided your pad fits inside, of course).

Of course there are subjective preferences--some people don't like being in small spaces, etc. And yes there are more objective drawbacks, for example one can't sit up inside a bivy and say cook breakfast, i.e. less space.

But please, let's not resort to things like a genetic fallacy. Let's talk about specific issues with specific bivies for use in specific conditions.

For the record, own two bivies: a Borah Cuben bottom M50 top, and a Ti Goat Silnylon top (I forget the bottom, but it's waterproof and not Cuben). The Borah one I just got and have not tried out yet. The Ti Goat I have used around 8-10 times in various conditions here in Sweden/Norway. I have only had minimal frost or condensation in this bivy, and only in the foot box. And the climate here is fairly humid with a lot of rain.

Now all that said, I actually agree with some critiques expressed about certain higher weight bivies. If you ask me, 26oz is waaaaaaay too heavy for just a bivy, even if it is supposedly a stand alone shelter. Personally, I think if your tarp/bivy combo goes over 500g, you might want to think about using a hybrid tent that is roughly the same weight, like the SMD Sky X. If you are strapped for cash, then I would extend the tarp/bivy to a full 1kg, which is not too crazy heavy, and you can get a big and good quality silnylon tarp for a reasonable price (especially used e.g. Gear Swap). And you can make a very cheap MYOG bivy out of lots of different stuff, but here is one very cheap and seemingly effective solution that claims to be 5 bucks of Tyvek/tape and around 10oz (skip to 8:30 to get to the bivy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_UHoJwLiWs&feature=share&list=PLVKmRP030HjF-SUFdOPLTiBjr2UBlnOwd

I know I am late to the party and that the author of the OP is essentially "done" with this thread from what I gather, but perhaps others in the peanut gallery will find the above helpful--if anything to learn about the genetic fallacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

EDIT: Typos, always typos...

Edited by PrimeZombie on 03/09/2013 06:46:23 MST.

"Dave U . sorry but I think your recent line is coming across as uninformed and a little aggressive."

Yes, that would define me exactly.

On the other hand, a quick search on these forums shows that I was a dedicated bivy shelter user for years. I have used eVent primarily and did some testing for Integral Designs given they were located in my back yard. I have used bivvies in the wet west coast to the high mountain challenges of the Canadian Rockies.

"Bivis are used in various kinds of terrains and regions as thousands of soldiers and many travellers will attest."

And soldiers carry 6 lbs packs (empty) that are often frameless, carrying loads of 60 lbs. What does this have to do with lightweight backpacking? Bivvies are used by soldiers so that they can remain prone and hidden, not to mention be able to get a shot off on their stomachs.

But I digress.

What I am trying to do here is prevent the purchase of something that will be sold after just a use or two.

The reason that I asked Daniel if he has ever used a bivy is because I want to help him not make the mistake that so many do with bivy shelters. A sleeping bag cover type water resistant bivy to be used in conjunction with a tarp or a waterproof bivy cover to be used in snow caves is much, much different than the hoop styled bivy shelters.

Imagine it raining. Hard. Ever try to get in and out of a bivy shelter without getting soaked? Ever try to change clothes inside a bivy shelter with a raging storm outside? Every try to store your pack and muddy shoes inside while you twist and turn trying to pee in a bottle? Ever use one during a deep shoulder season snow storm while the fabric pushes against your down bag rendering the insulate properties substandard? Ever be completely covered in snow, open the door only to find an avalanche of snow meet you face first or worse, realize that your bivy shelter is no longer venting at all? I could go on.

I have already touched on the weight aspect so I won't again.

I still use a bivy occasionally for additional warmth and as a barrier against convective heat loss with my sleep system under a tarp but it weighs 7 oz. I still have room to comfortably change clothes, cook, etc under the tarp.

And yes, I am the opposing view here on this thread but I don't care. It is vital that the OP (and Daniel) have all available information to make a decision. Why? I wish I had experienced users comment before I used products that I ended up hating and selling anyway.

@Nathan - I never said that innovation was not permitted. Historically, bivy shelters were the only choice for the weight conscious backpacker. One person tents were well over 4 pounds and a 2.5 pound bivy shelter (which is what these things weighed 20 plus years ago) was the only choice. The only innovation that I see with the Uber Bivy is the fabric with respect to breathability at the expense of durability. However, it looks almost identical to every other hooped bivy.

This isn't a critique of Dave's product. Not at all. It is a critique of bivy shelters.

With 1.5 lb, extremely versatile tents available currently that permit a modular approach and which have none of the shortcomings of a bivy shelter, why shouldn't Daniel and Max be aware of what is available for their needs?

In any event (no pun intended), I won't post any more on my thoughts and experiences on the matter.

No harm intended; no foul.

"In any event (no pun intended), I won't post any more on my thoughts and experiences on the matter."

There's no need to self-censor. When you're sardonic first and helpful second, you can't be shocked when people get annoyed at you. I guess I understand if that's your "thing," man, but look at how much you could have contributed at any time, and instead, you opted for snarky 2-sentence cynicisms.

So, your opinion is welcome, but I know myself and probably others want the opinion part, not the tough guy spiel.

Dave is just jealous of my new Cooper S.

He also talks sense, unlike some folk that hike twice a year.

Max, surely you jest. Re read all of my previous posts on this thread.

Asking Daniel if he has ever used a bivy is a legitimate question and would define his ultimate gear choice.



@Mike. I love my ID event Overbag! I suspect it would also look good in a Mini!

Edited by FamilyGuy on 03/09/2013 09:22:18 MST.

Wrong colo'u'r Dave. My ID bag is green.
The inside of my S is a mixture of silver and black. :-)

Yeah, I was jestin'.

Yo Dave... I've got bivy cred :)

Yes I've used a bivy before. Many times. Multiple scenarios. More often than my tent. Yes I've brought my muddy boots in with me, and they come out warm and dry in the morning. The toughest scenario for me is when you're parked on a hill and you have to balance against a tree to keep from sliding down the hill. In this circumstance it's also tricky to stow too much gear in the bivy cause it just helps the bivy slide down the hill. But it can be done, the sense of accomplishment is the reward.

Regarding getting wet in a rain storm. I don't know what you're doing. But no, my stuff never gets soaked. And it's pretty much always raining here. Maybe a few drops hit the sleeping pag but it dries really fast. I get changed outside the bivy. Again, the little bit of wet on my clothes dries super fast. Clothing choices count to be sure you're churning out enough heat to keep things drying out quickly.

Any mud or dirt left in my sleeping bag is easily shaken out. I grab the bottom of the bivy ( along with the bottom of the sleeping bag inside ) and give it a good shake. Then all the debris lands in the hood of the sleeping bag which is fwipped inside out, dumping out the dirt. All of this is done without removing the sleeping bag from the bivy. This means the sleeping bag stays dry. Then I remove the pad ( the pad becomes the structure for my pack ) and shove the bivy+bag into my pack. The sleeping bag is never exposed, not even for a momoment.

Note, I've been involved in this thread because I too am searching for a bivy. I tried the msr-ac bivy which uses a proprietary breathable membrane. I shared my negative experience with this product on this thread. And I've been following and contributing based on Max's and my similar goals for what a bivy should do in our equipment list. Well, the ac-bivy is on it's way back to the retailer. This is due to the poor design which encourages water to drip into the bivy. The Rab / Integral Designs Alpine bivy should be perfect. I would also expect the Uber Bivy to be perfectly water tight at a somewhat higher weight, but with added features.

TO answer the question why bivy, or why uber-bivy when tents are available to do the same thing. I think max said it best, (paraphrasing) The fun is facing nature and winning the fight. A bivy brings you closer and thus is more fun. I see it as a rain jacket for my bed. Not sure why you only talk it up only for cold weather alpine excursions. It works great in the rain. Maybe you haven't experienced the freedom of a bivy+synthetic bag. I can certainly imagine some level of hydro-phobia if you're using a down UL sleeping bag. And the idea of putting muddy boots in it would be like a horror show.

Hopefully this answered your questions,

sincerely,

-daniel-

David U

I have no doubt you have a lot of bivi experience. (I have lurked these forums for years) And you talk a lot of sense as to their usage.

However, you dismiss my 'Uninformed' comment, I feel it was valid. It was in regard to your misleading statements about mesh in Rabs bivis:

Edited by MoleJ on 03/10/2013 05:01:32 MDT.

David U

I have no doubt you have a lot of bivi experience. (I have lurked these forums for years) And you talk a lot of sense as to their usage.

However, you dismiss my 'Uninformed' comment, I feel it was valid. It was in regard to your misleading statements about mesh in Rabs bivis:

That's because Rabs bivvies are made to be used the way bivvies are supposed to be used: high altitude mountaineering.

A quick glance at their current web page shows 5/11 models with mesh. Inc high altitude models. http://rab.uk.com/products/equipment/bivis.html

and:

The Uber Bivy is a tent.

It most obviously is NOT a tent unless you really think that many other brands models hooped and meshed bivis are tents too (inc those by Rab/ID/Terra Nova etc)

Agreed, Your referral to soldiers pack weights is a digression, and irrelevant as to where they use their bivis.

For nearly 30 years I've seen plenty of folk here in the UK happily using gtx bivis (in rain too!) and dealing with the downsides. Due to where I live, never higher than 4000' ;)

As to the Agressive impression I had, maybe that is something lost in translation. My apologies if so.

Based on the op's criteria, I would suggest not getting a bivy. If you are getting a trailstar, just get an inner nest.

You want:

If I wanted to get a bivy for sleeping underneath a tarp, what's the most breathable? I'd love one with foot venting options, and a LOT of space. I'm tall and I like to dry gear out next to me.

That is going to be a bit much for a bivy. You won't be able to dry clothes in a bivy. Too much condensation will form. The best you can do is keep clothes from freezing by tossing them into a ziplock or throwing them inbetween, your groundsheet (which I think would be a bit redundant) and your bivy. a bivy doesn't have a lot of room. An innernest does. Just get a fabric one. No need to deal with the downsides if a bivy. I am a bivy user, but you seem like you would do much better with an inner nest.

Edited by mpd1690 on 03/10/2013 08:29:29 MDT.

I'm looking at bug bivies for use with the TrailStar and the borah bug bivy looks like a good blend between function, reputation, and price. What I can't determine from the vast internet is how much (if any) of a bathtub floor it has. Does anyone have one and can provide insight? I've tried emailing borah directly about some other items and haven't received any response.

I have a Trailstar and the single mid-style bug nets work nicely under them. Check out the Six Moon Designs Serenity Net Tent. It's not the Borah you're asking about, but something to consider.

I just received my new Borah bug bivy a few days ago. It doesn't have a bathtub floor at all, just a flat silnylon floor and a flat mesh top. But since the purpose is to keep bugs out of my bed, it seems like that's all that is necessary. If I expect rain or soggy ground I plan to try a plastic groundsheet that can be pulled up on the sides. This is the first time I have used a bivy so l'll be experimenting!

Max,

About 8 months ago I was looking to buy a bivy without having ever used one. Like you I was looking for multifunctionality. For me that meant: breathable for winter use in -25C\-13F under a tarp; waterproof for independent (no tarp) 3 season use; and optimum durability\weight ratio.

I hike backcountry in Labrador, Canada, which is very buggy in summer and damn cold in winter.

After extensive research and talking to friends who use bivies, I went with the MLD eVent Soul. Very pricey. Cost me almost $400 once shipping and Canadian custom duties were paid.

It is an awesome piece of equipment, incredibly well made. BUT . . . I didn't know what I needed.

When it came time to use it , I found myself wanting to carry a tarp because a bivy in the rain is only useful for lying down and staying still. Unless your hiking style is hike to dark and sleep, without down time, it offers no\little rain shelter during the couple of hours between finishing supper and going to sleep. Taking a tarp defeats the purpose of a bivy for me - I may as well take my tent.

During the winter my tarp\tent, exped UL7 Downmat, WM sleeping bag and EE Revelation quilt keep we warm and dry without the need for a bivy.

I have never used this bivy. It is brand new. I started seam sealing it and finished one side with seam grip. If you want to buy it, PM me. I will even finish the seam sealing.

Its not the right piece of gear for me but may be for you.

Derrick

Edited by miku on 04/19/2013 08:39:50 MDT.

Made a new bivy using Tyvek home wrap, nylon mesh, and velcro yesterday. Took a piece of tyvek, cut it to size and dimensions (feet narrower etc), folded it up on the feet end to about where my shins are, taped it closed. Then sewed some nylon mesh to that end and to one side, then sewed some velcro to the other side of the tyvek and mesh. Sewed a loop on the mesh for a tie out point. Weight of the bivy is 11.4 oz. It's more of a bug bivy all in all. As mentioned it cost about 10 dollars in materials. Going to try it out this weekend at Shenandoah N.P.

I plan to use it with my Sea to Summit Ultra Sil poncho-tarp when expecting rain. Weight is i think 12 oz, plus weight of cord and AL stakes.


In a little while, i'm upgrading to a Zpacks Cuben Poncho/Tarp that i've requested and Joe agreed to do for a reasonable price. I will combine that with a Sea To Summit NANO pyramid Mosquito Net, which i will sew some cuben and velcro onto.

However, that combo is going into my ultra durable, but lighter, save for later stash. Course i will have to test it out it a few times.

I just finished my summer bivy. It is reversible. basically so that one side is water proof(1.1 sil) with noseeum at the head and the other is all no seeum(.8 oz per sq/yd). It also has a velcro side entry. it weighed 6 oz exactly after trimming it up w/stuff sack. and its pretty big 8ft long. I wanted to make sure it was big enough to fit my sleeping pad, back pack, and other items I might not want wet.

I will be using it with my sil tarp 1 from integral designs it weighs 7 oz with out stakes and tie outs. It will need atleast 6 stakes and 4 tie outs to be usefull though and that will definately add weight.

I promise to those of you that have read me post this 4 times already this wil be my last post about this bivy......Sorry

Hey Josh, it's OK to be excited and enthused about a piece of gear you just made. Nice weights btw.