"The whole project only makes sense if someone wants to haul heavier, bulkier loads"

Dale,

I'm not into heavier but I do like the capacity to carry bulky loads. The weight cost of a larger backpack is small but the convenience is big, in my opinion.

I like having the capacity to carry an extra bear canister, a 5 gallon bucket, a 1arge Japanese fish float, a big synthetic sleeping bag, litter from the beach, my hiking partner's pack, etc.

That's why I've stayed with the external frame concept for the last 50 years or so.

Daryl

I was using a 4x5 camera in the mid to late '70's and it was a big monorail rig, not a folding field model. I rigged a "freighter" style frame to haul it all--- upwards of 45 pounds. It was goog for short hauls.

Hauling bear cans would be high on the list; I can imagine a coordinated can and pack frame system. A pack fram with a waterproof compartment for photographic equipment would be interesting too.

Ultimately, I would want something more compact with a lower center of gravity.

I recently saw an ad for an internal frame using wood parts. A finely laminated wood frame isn't out of the realm of possibility. Nicely done, it would be very much at home in the wilderness, much like a wooden canoe or laminated fly fishing net.

"I went to the Hammacher Schlemmer site with credit card in hand ready to buy this thing, then found out it doesn't exist."

Well now, Doug, the only reason I mentioned the Carbon Fiber Kelty is because I want one from Hammacher Schlemmer and you may know somebody in a similar
situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if you're in a
situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's go to Hammacher Schlemmer and say, "I want a Carbon Fiber Kelty". And walk out. You know, if
one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and
they won't help him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,
they may think they're both faggots and they won't help either of them.
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in, asking for a Carbon Fiber Kelty and walking out. They may think it's an
organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in, askin' for a Carbon Fiber Kelty and then walking out? Friends, they may think it's a *movement*.

And that's what it is , the Backpacking Light Carbon Fiber Kelty Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar.

With feeling.

:)

"You're just mean. I went to the Hammacher Schlemmer site with credit card in hand ready to buy this thing, then found out it doesn't exist. Jerk."

Haha, there is always hope, you can still buy my carbon fiber framed, dyneema external backpack which weighs 13 oz for 1400--heck, i will be magnanimous and sell it to you for a meager 1200.

"And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in, askin' for a Carbon Fiber Kelty and then walking out? Friends, they may think it's a *movement*"

Arlo would be proud. But does the AT go through Stockbridge, Massachusetts?

Walk right in,
It's around the back,
Just a half a mile from the railroad tracks
You can get anything you want
At Alice's Hikin' Hut

Eeeeeeeexcepting Alice.....

>"But does the AT go through Stockbridge, Massachusetts?"

The AT passes about 5 miles to the SE of Alice's where it goes by Mount Wilcox. It you detoured through Stockbridge instead of going through Beartooth State Park, it would be a little easier (a couple more miles but much flatter).

I like how Daryl uses "27 8×10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was" to explain his projects.

All I can remember is the Group W Bench.

:)

I found one of the Coleman Peak 1 packs today. I gave it a scrubbing and will post photos when I get it reassembled.

The frame is 28oz, a little more than I expected. It would be cool in carbon fiber with foam-filled channels to stiffen it. The simple slot system for hanging and adjusting the suspension is sweet. I could still see this done in beautiful laminated wood, or carbon fiber and wood. Add some updated straps and a Cuben pack bag and you have a hiking jet pack :) More to follow.

Updated photos and weights.
Frame: 28oz, 26" tall by 12" wide.


Suspension items:

Waist belt 5.6oz, which I think is pretty good
Shoulder straps: 2.2oz each
Back band: 0.8oz


The waist belt is held in place with two plastic loops on webbing mounts as toggles. The toggles simply slip through slots in the frame. Simple and light. The shoulder straps and top corners of the back back use the same mounting system.


The pack bag mounts using aluminum clevis pins that run through holes in the frame and on through grommets in the pack bag. They are retained by a stiff wire run through the pins from inside the pack bag. I would have used the loop and webbing system used elsewhere; my guess is that pins and wires are snug and cleaner in appearance. The pins and wires are 1.6oz total. There are toggles in the top corners.


The assembled pack is 3lbs 7oz. The bag is just 14.6oz, which surprised me. It is PU coated nylon and panel loading with large vertical side pockets and small outer pocket in the front panel. It is roughly 18" tall x 13" wide x 7" deep (1638ci/26.8L) and the side pockets are very loosely 14"x4"x4" (224ci/3.7L) for a total of 34.2 liters. There is about 7" of space below the pack bag and the top has lash tabs to store more above.


Using a Zpacks Blast 36 as an example, it would be possible to replace the pack bag and suspension with the 9.4oz Blast components, plus a bit more for the extra toggles and a continuous waist belt. Lets say 12 ounces. Add the 28oz frame for a total of 2lbs 8oz (40oz). That is almost a given as we have real world examples and weights. My guess is that the frame weight could be halved with UL laminates for a imaginary total weight of 28oz. Could be cool.

The goal is a pack with excellent weight transfer properties plus the extra capacity to haul bulky, ungainly stuff like inflatable boats, tripods, or bear cans. A frame designed expressly for bear cans could be very cool.

I think making an UL pack to haul more traditional heavy loads is antithetical to the whole UL process and should be avoided. Murphy's Law of Luggage states that "any travel container will be filled to just over it's designed capacity," meaning that if you build a pack capable of carrying too much weight, it will be used that way and more.

Another design that popped into my head would be to have a carbon fiber can with ergonomic styling on the pack panel with bosses and tabs to mount the suspension components. Top it off with a Cuben shower cap for a lid and you have a waterproof pack that is also the frame. You could mold recesses into the sides or front and bridge them with netting or mesh for outside pockets, or just tack on Cuben pockets where you like them. Make the top saddle shaped and your bear can could nest there.

My $0.02

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/08/2013 15:48:51 MST.

Dale, it may have been posted on here by someone with specificity, but I am certain I have seen those nylon flex frames under another brand's name/backpack on trail and at either Campmor or Sierra Trading. Squeak-free, torsionally-flexible and relatively light are how I remember those from buddies that had the Colemans. Swap out the stamped-steel washers used to hold the bag onto those slots for a strong plastic, and I bet you could put a pretty lightweight bag on that thing!

The Enduroflex frame is used by Outdoor Products and Basspro has a freighter style frame with their RedHead brand on it:



They have that pack on closeout for $50. Published weight is 5.19 pounds. It is a lot larger than the Coleman or Outdoor products packs at 37" tall and 17" plus the much more developed suspension, waist belt pockets, etc.

The Coleman uses aluminum clevis pins to attach the pack. The suspension parts use plastic loop mounted with webbing and the loops slide into the slots in the frame. I like the light simple design and the easy adjustment. Note that these frames have load lifters too.

Imagine a molded plastic frame using materials like the molded frame sheets found in many internal frame packs, perhaps a hybrid with some aluminum here and there. that would be quick and cheap to produce in a factory environment. I still like the idea of carbon fiber with foam channels-- it could look very techy, but it would be spendy.

I ran across a Kelty freighter frame while surfing this subject. Imagine a Cuben fabric "shelf" on the bottom with Cuben wings on the side. Drop in your waterproof stuff sack and strap it down. Kind of like the Equinox packs with an external frame.

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/08/2013 16:09:37 MST.

Why even bother with the wings? You could probably just attach 3 straps right to the frame. Better yet do a zigzag of guy line across the back and cinch it over you stuff sack. You could probably get away without the shelf even, depending on how u rig it.

"Why even bother with the wings? You could probably just attach 3 straps right to the frame. Better yet do a zigzag of guy line across the back and cinch it over you stuff sack. You could probably get away without the shelf even, depending on how u rig it."


Good points, like the high grade stuff Vaude uses on their packs.

Part of my idea was to be able to handle things like inflatable boats and bear cans. Those wings would take the stress off of SUL stuff sacks. We're talking Cuben--- my TP stash would weigh more :)

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/08/2013 15:54:56 MST.

I'm surprised that the Peak 1 frame is so heavy with no bag attached. I wonder if you could take a hacksaw to that plastic frame and eliminate some of the cross bars and central "plate"? Light arrow shafts could be substituted for the interior vertical spars to maintain the space between the bag and your back. How low could it go and still support a moderate load while providing better ventilation and separation from a bear can,etc,? Scott

Waste of time I think. The Coleman stuff is really dense and it needs the bracing for structural integrity, so you need to start over with lighter material. If it could be stamped out in aluminum or titanium with all the edges radiused it might work. Some sort of honeycomb sheet could be interesting. A combo of welded aluminum sheet and tubing could duplicate most of the Coleman frame design, or use custom aluminum channeled extrusion with the slots in it welded to the central plate. That could be really sexy with a cool anodizing job. But I still think carbon fiber is the way to go.

I'm sure the designers at Coleman wanted some gorilla proof gear. Imagine what their returned gear looks like.

Take a look at a Kelty welded aluminum frame-- way overbuilt. I think that is where the Jansport stands out: they used light materials with good engineering and design.