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Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber
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Steve B
(geokite) - F

Locale: Southern California
Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/01/2013 17:05:11 MST Print View

Did a search here, didn't find any posts showing this already.
Dated 2/18/13, down the page a bit: http://www.rayjardine.com/News/index.htm

So, who would like to go first? :)

Steve

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/01/2013 17:45:48 MST Print View

One reason they don't make square tent poles.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Cuben Fiber and Ray Jardine on 03/01/2013 18:29:12 MST Print View

People have hiked thousands of miles with Cuben gear without problems. Sorry but some little video isn't going to change my mind on that. A real test of cuben would be how hard it was to rip a tie out off a tarp or rip a strap off a pack.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/01/2013 18:36:40 MST Print View

Would be really helpful if folks like Joe of Zpacks -- those who work with cuben and are familiar with the fabric will chime in.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Cuben Fiber and Ray Jardine on 03/01/2013 18:36:45 MST Print View

He needs to tear 0.53 oz silnylon. Trust me, it tears easily.

He is such an opportunistic Prick.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/01/2013 18:46:05 MST Print View

cuben 1 vs sil before.jpgcuben 1 vs sil center seam.jpgcuben 1 vs sil failure 42 lbs.jpg


Simple seam with .51 cuben one side 1.3 oz silnylon other side. Pulled to failure.
Stitching, cuben and silnylon all failed together at 42 lbs.

The fabrics are comparable in strength in my experience. A second row of stitches would have increased the
strength of the seam overall.

Note the unreinforced web tie outs remained undamaged.

Edited by oware on 03/01/2013 18:55:41 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/01/2013 18:49:04 MST Print View

"So, who would like to go first? :)"

Good one Stephen

Yeah, that "test" is not very useful

Ray is such a self-promoter

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Jardine on 03/01/2013 18:49:36 MST Print View

I don't presume to know Ray Jardine's character but it does come off looking bad. Sorta like "hey Cuben stinks so keep buying my silnylon kits."

I don't think Jardine has come up with a new idea since the 90s but he's still trying to pass himself off as an expert and peddle his gear kits. He has a right to do that, but I also have a right to say a new backpacker would be much better off looking to Ryan Jordan, Andrew Skurka or Brian Robinson for ideas.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Jardine on 03/01/2013 19:00:55 MST Print View

Screw Jardine- I wanna know what Gross thinks.

Michael Ray
(topshot) - MLife

Locale: Midwest
Re: Jardine on 03/01/2013 19:07:11 MST Print View

Same guy that can't seem to properly care for or keep dry his down bags either. See Page 17

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/01/2013 19:16:52 MST Print View

I've never seen a Jardine kit, so I can't say much about them.

The cuben fiber stuff that I have has turned out nicely, but maybe that is because I figured out how to treat them to avoid damage.

--B.G.--

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Jardine on 03/01/2013 19:20:57 MST Print View

I'm sorry, but his take on certain things reads like a parody.

It also appears that, despite all he has done for the backpacking world, everyone has moved on and he doesn't know how to adapt to more modern techniques and gear.

For example, he claims that his synthetic quilt should last decades if properly cared for. Ok, sure. But then...

"Unlike goose down which eventually goes flat, our synthetic insulation does not."

Apparently only Ray has this magical synthetic insulation?

Edited by T.L. on 03/01/2013 19:52:06 MST.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/01/2013 19:35:20 MST Print View

Steve, didn't you know that Jardine won't allow you to copy that URL and post it without his permission? Just wait. He's going to come after you!

John Brochu
(JohnnyBgood4) - F

Locale: New Hampshire
Re: Jardine on 03/01/2013 20:19:31 MST Print View

>>>I don't presume to know Ray Jardine's character but it does come off looking bad. Sorta like "hey Cuben stinks so keep buying my silnylon kits." <<<


Jeff Lowe (famous climber and founder of Latok Mountain Gear) had this to say about Jardine's character:

"But to the point of Ray's character:
I was there in '71 or '72 at my brother Mike's house in Gunnison, CO. Mike, Ray and I were Outward Bound instructors and therefore had something in common. Greg was over from Utah to work with Mike on the camming concept, which he'd been developing since 1967. Jardine had been invited to a spaghetti dinner, and Greg offerred to show him the current state of development of his new protection device for climbing, but first Ray had to sign a non-disclosure/non-compete agreement.

Ray was a quick engineering study and soon grasped the essentials of the constant-angle cam and spring-load concept. It was all-in-all a very convivial and exciting sharing among friends. This is why, several years later, when word began to leak out about Ray's secret devices, Greg sent the first of a string of registered letters to Jardine, seeking to come to some sort of agreement over his breach of faith. All the letters were refused, so it was that, finally, after Friends came out on the market and Mark Vallance began producing them under license from Ray, that Greg finally filed suit. To make a long story a little shorter, Mark, who is a stand-up guy, but had not been told the whole story by Ray, finally agreed to pay Greg a settlement for the use of the camming concept. Who needs an enema when you've got a friend like Ray?"


Source: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=385308&msg=387286#msg387286

Post #87 -- User Jello is well known to be Jeff Lowe.

Andrew F
(andrew.f) - F - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Jardine on 03/01/2013 20:30:36 MST Print View

It always amuses me that Jardine has a good reputation in the backpacking world, because it's the opposite in the climbing world. Aside from the story above, there are numerous other tales of his less than ethical behavior. For instance, the Jardine Traverse on the Nose route on El Capitan bears his name- because he chiseled the holds on it into the rock with a hammer.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Jardine on 03/01/2013 20:49:31 MST Print View

I had not heard these stories. I thought he was a bit eccentric but this is a new perspective.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
cuben on 03/01/2013 20:53:43 MST Print View

he compares 1.35 silnylon to 0.51 cuben, a factor of 2.5 x lighter material.

Why doesnt he compare it to 0.74 or 1.0 or 1.4 cuben? Because he would look foolish, thats why. Those materials, although lighter or equal to silnylon still, are much much stronger than the 0.51.

He only wants to make a flawed point, to steer people to his kits.

Edited by livingontheroad on 03/01/2013 20:54:19 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/01/2013 22:54:55 MST Print View

Jardine can be a crank on certain subjects. He seemed very grounded when writing on UL concepts but sounded a little freaky when he got on the subjects of food and nutrition. I swear I could hear the Twilight Zone theme and the book spoke to me in Rod Sterling's voice :)

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/01/2013 22:58:22 MST.

Anthony Weston
(anthonyweston) - MLife

Locale: Southern CA
cuben on 03/02/2013 00:03:19 MST Print View

I'm not going back to silnylon. Much less condensation with cuben.
No problems in the field.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: cuben on 03/02/2013 00:27:07 MST Print View

Well just don't put your Cuben up against a square edged piece of wood and pull sideways on it :)

From the North Sails web site:


Cuben Fiber gives North sail designers the opportunity to design very light and easily pressurized sails with enough strength to handle high shock loads. There is no other lightweight sail material in the world that offers the strength needed to absorb the energy of an asymmetric sail refilling after a gybe, or the loads generated when sailing in lumpy seas. Super light Cuben Fiber styles weigh 33-50% less than the lightest coated nylon spinnaker cloths. A Cuben Fiber asymmetric spinnaker will stay pressurized and will load the spinnaker sheet at significantly lower apparent wind angles than any other material, providing a significant net VMG gain. The advantage is most pronounced in small-medium size boats where “traditional” spinnaker fabrics are tend to be somewhat overweight by nature.



If you can run a 50' sailboat upwind, you should be able to use it for a tarp!Cuben sails

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/02/2013 00:31:37 MST.

Dirk R
(Dirk)
Well said, Dale on 03/02/2013 01:21:54 MST Print View

Agreed. +1 "If you can run a 50' sailboat upwind, you should be able to use it for a tarp!"

Also

"I'm not going back to silnylon. Much less condensation with cuben." +1 Anthony

Edited by Dirk on 03/02/2013 02:35:40 MST.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Much less condensation with cuben. on 03/02/2013 03:47:18 MST Print View

I'm not sure that cuben in and of itself as a material is less prone to condensation than say PU coated, silnylon or any other material.

If the temperature outside of your tent or tarp varies greatly enough from the temperature inside or underneath your shelter I believe you will see condensation.

Condensation is produced by the evaporative effect of a temperature differential in much as the same way it occurs in an air conditioning unit "evaporator" coil.

I'll agree that some materials are better conductors of heat than others. This is confusing to me though because if for the sake of discussion cuben is less prone to condensation wouldn't that make it more breathable?

Correct if I am wrong, but by nature isn't silnylon more breathable than cuben?

What kind of shelters are we speaking about? How are they set up? Are they single wall, hybrids or double wall shelters?

I want to understand what makes cuben less prone to condensation if it is so.

Party On,

Newton

William Chilton
(WilliamC3) - MLife

Locale: Antakya
Cuben fiber v. silnylon on 03/02/2013 03:53:46 MST Print View

Perhaps Ray should watch this video .
It's well known that cuben fiber tears easily from a cut edge. It would be interesting to see the same test with a seamed strip of cuben. Also, is it just me or is Ray pulling the cuben differently from the silnylon? He seems to be jerking it more, and angling the pull to maximise the stress on the weak cut edge.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Cuben fiber v. silnylon on 03/02/2013 04:00:00 MST Print View

"It's well known that cuben fiber tears easily from a cut edge. It would be interesting to see the same test with a seamed strip of cuben. Also, is it just me or is Ray pulling the cuben differently from the silnylon? He seems to be jerking it more, and angling the pull to maximise the stress on the weak cut edge."

Obvious to me. Note the grunting on the soundtrack for the silnylon video. Pure PT Barnum!

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Cuben condensation on 03/02/2013 06:36:26 MST Print View

I've only had a chance to use my hexamid about a dozen nights or so, but I find the condensation is far easier to manage, not that there is necessarily less of it.

When the silnylon would get wet it would hold onto the moisture, sag like crazy no matter how tight the pitch was the night before, and seem to just stay wet. The cuben does get wet, especially over my head (which happens to be where the dog sleeps too...so I blame him), but doesn't seem to drip, sag, or cause me difficulties in any way. It slides down the wall of the hex, runs into the netting on the floor, and voila...no worries. (As an aside, while initially quite skeptical of the net floor, I find it rather ingenious now)

This is why, sadly for my bank account, I don't think I would ever buy a silnylon shelter again.

I guess I just need to be careful about pulling it against a sharp edged piece of wood, as some previous folks have warned. Thanks for the heads up!!!

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Ray Jardine examines Cuben Fiber on 03/02/2013 08:22:46 MST Print View

Posted here in On The Web section on 2/18.

Edited by annapurna on 03/02/2013 09:14:53 MST.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Condensation on 03/02/2013 08:50:13 MST Print View

Here's my take on the cuben condensation thing:

Condensation occurs when humid air cools off (contracts) and thus is carrying more water than it can hold so some is squeezed out. This can occur when all the air is cooling off (ie. evening) or it can occur when warm, moist air happens to run into something cold - i.e. your breath in the winter.

Consider a person wearing glasses in the winter who walks inside and the glasses become covered in condensation. Those glasses were cold, so the warm air in the house hit that cold surface, contracted and released condensation. But why does it happen so predominately on the glasses (as opposed to on their hat or something)? It's because the glass has a high heat capacity (essentially density) and it's quick to transfer heat, so any air coming in contact with the glass cools rapidly. Conversely some more insulating doesn't cool air nearly as fast, so condensation is slower to form if at all.

So I suspect that cuben is more insulating than silnylon - perhaps because there may be tiny air spaces between all those spectra fibers. If nothing else, there's less to it so it has less ability to absorb heat (cool off air). So when your warm breath inside the tent hits a cuben wall, it cools off slower and thus may end up being ventilated before it hits the condensation point.

That's my guess. There's also the greenhouse effect with cuben, but that's not really a factor for an open tarp.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Cuben condensation on 03/02/2013 08:56:26 MST Print View

"The cuben does get wet, especially over my head (which happens to be where the dog sleeps too...so I blame him)"

I guess this saves you from having to wear a balaclava?

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Re Balaclava on 03/02/2013 09:00:09 MST Print View

Or skin moisturiser. :-)

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
sil vs cuben .74 on 03/04/2013 12:44:48 MST Print View

breaking test sil vs cuben .74A simple test. the seam between the fabrics is just rolled over and stitched once. I applied body weight and jumped a bit. The main rolled seam held and the cuben fiber tie out connection stretched the stitch holes but held, the silnylon failed at the tie out. Nothing was reinforced.

A shelter that sags when wet can be due to poor pattern design.

Dale South
(dsouth) - M

Locale: Southeast
Canvas vs Sil on 03/05/2013 05:58:13 MST Print View

Just wonder what forums would have been like if the Internet had existed back in the day when nylon appeared on the scene to replace canvas? Probably an awful lot of nylon shelter detractors.

Tony Ronco
(tr-browsing) - MLife
ZPacks Cuben Fiber Material Comparison on 03/17/2013 20:35:40 MDT Print View

FWIW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gfcuCh7h04

Peter Longobardi
(paintplongo) - F

Locale: Hopefully on the Trail
Trolls on 03/19/2013 06:30:18 MDT Print View

Look at all the cyberhikers go!

What does it matter what he thinks about Cuben to you?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Trolls on 03/19/2013 06:32:42 MDT Print View

Why do you care what they care about Peter? Or are you just hurling insults this morning? Pot calling the kettle black.

Steve B
(geokite) - F

Locale: Southern California
actually on 03/19/2013 12:49:33 MDT Print View

Actually I have no idea what he things of cuben. The video didn't have any text or voiced opinions (other than grunting). But it leads us to conclude that he doesn't know how to examine it properly, or that he wishes to sway his minions with a distorted test. But what he thinks of cuben? I have no idea.

Certainly you knew this. right?

Steve

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Re: cuben on 03/19/2013 15:25:48 MDT Print View



Wow, I see an awful lot of tarps and backpacks out of those two pieces of sail!!

Edited by ben2world on 03/19/2013 15:27:02 MDT.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: cuben on 03/19/2013 18:37:57 MDT Print View

Don't forget about the dry bags and rain skirts which could be made out of the off cuts :-)

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Re: Re: cuben on 03/19/2013 18:42:19 MDT Print View

Ray is always 10 years too late and 95 cents short.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Cuben Pirates on 03/19/2013 18:44:12 MDT Print View

Will Ultralight backpackers form pirate bands and raid sailing boats for their sails? I have this image in my head of UL hiker/pirates climbing over the rails with titanium swords between their teeth.
Okay I'm weird.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Cuben Pirates on 03/19/2013 18:57:48 MDT Print View

Titanium swords and carbon fiber peglegs.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Cuben Pirates on 03/19/2013 19:32:59 MDT Print View

:)
The sail maker is located a little south of where I work during the week. Maybe a late night foray is in order or I can do some dumpster diving.
Duane

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
... on 03/19/2013 19:52:01 MDT Print View

YAAAARRRRRRRRR!

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Cuben Pirates on 03/19/2013 19:59:20 MDT Print View

Cuben pirates, ahoy!!

Edited by ben2world on 03/19/2013 20:10:30 MDT.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Cuben Privates on 03/19/2013 21:00:05 MDT Print View

What is all of this talk about Cuben Privates?

I keep my pants on so my privates don't show.

--B.G.--

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Cuben Privates on 03/19/2013 21:11:11 MDT Print View

Cuben underwear? Bob, You're tougher than I thought. Don't EVEN want to think about getting your Cuben knickers in a twist.


BABALOOOOOOOOO!

Cubano

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/19/2013 21:11:47 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Cuben Privates on 03/19/2013 21:13:20 MDT Print View

Is that a taught pitch, or are you glad to see me?

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: Re: Cuben Privates on 03/19/2013 21:51:14 MDT Print View

Bob if i had your privates i wouldnt show them either.



;) (Obv)

Jeff McConnell
(Catalyst) - F
Dumpster diving on 03/19/2013 23:00:07 MDT Print View

Hmmm, dumpster diving might not be a bad idea. I bet I live pretty close to some sailmakers...

Steven McAllister
(brooklynkayak) - MLife

Locale: Atlantic North East
Condensation, cubern vs silnylon on 03/20/2013 08:12:41 MDT Print View

My limited perception as to why cuben seesm to suffer less from condensation has more to do with the surface finish.

Silnylin is more porous and so water tends to cling to the shelter wall.

Cuben is very slick/hydrophobic and so water tends to run off quicker and not cling.

I have not actually tested this though. Just from observation.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Condensation, cubern vs silnylon on 03/20/2013 08:48:42 MDT Print View

You know that's a good point. My first silnylon tent shocked me the first time I was seriously rained on...that tent had to have weighed 5 pounds!! I shook it and shook it and could NOT get the water off. At first I thought there was something wrong with my DWR...

My hexamid, on the other hand, seems nearly dry with one or two good shakes in the am, even if I was rained on overnight.

I like your observation

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Condensation, cubern vs silnylon on 03/20/2013 11:29:08 MDT Print View

Thank you for the info Jennifer, good to know I won't gain any weight to speak of with my new Hexamid, which should be down at the Post Office after a slight mix up.
Duane

Susan Papuga
(veganaloha) - M

Locale: USA
Re: Re: Cuben Privates on 04/02/2013 19:45:56 MDT Print View

"Nevermind"


I just love Emily Litella!

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Cuben Privates on 04/02/2013 19:50:01 MDT Print View

Hhahahahahahahaha Susan!!!!!

We need MORE violins on television!!!!!

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuben Privates on 04/02/2013 20:02:08 MDT Print View

What's all this FUSS I keep hearing... about endangered feces?

--B.G.--

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Ray Jardine.... hmmm... on 04/09/2013 13:42:44 MDT Print View

After being highly disappointed with Ray's last book I promptly donated it to my library. I didn't learn anything useful in it beyond training for a long distance trip.

Therefore what Ray has to say about Cuben fabric could not interest me less.

Now Andrew Skurka's opinion is another matter entirely.There is a man worth listening to.