Thanks everyone for good inshights. I think I will keep 4 oz as an average amount of fuel/day. Primus Omnilite is supposed to be more fuel efficient and also the heat exchanger pot should help. For sure I will be using the windscreen and was thinking about using a 4 mm plywood stove stand. But Ray has a better idea with foam pad and I would try making one.

Coincidentally I'm near Mt. Bachelor this weekend in the Pacific NW. I brought a couple of bottom reflectors hoping to experiment and dial in my winter stove setup.

For the bottom refector, I've def. used the shovel for this, but in a deep snow I had to keep my hand on the shovel handle and reposition the shovel several times to keep it from sinking in the snow.

I also did the foam+tin foil thing and that worked great. Then, just for fun, I tried without the tinfoil, just to see how much the foil was helping to reflect the heat away from the foam. As will be obvious to most, the foam melted in 2-3 minutes. This made me think, "Is the foam needed?" If the foil is relecting so much of the heat to protect the foam; perhaps the foil will do OK on it's own protecting the snow from the heat as well. I plan on trying this tonight when it gets nice and chilly outside.

The other test I'm planning is to use the cheapie folding esbit stove without a bottom relfector at all. I expect that it will sink. But it's possible that the more gentle flame and the way the platform for the fuel is raised off the ground will allow the heat to dissipate without melting the snow. I'll also be experimenting with multiple fuel cubes buring at once to speed up the melt / boil times.

I also want to say thanks to the previously posted advice to double the fuel you'd bring in the summer. I've been looking for a good simple rule to follow when planning for winter snow melting.

Sincerely,

-daniel-

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 03/02/2013 09:35:34 MST.

Well that does not really compute for me. With a canister stove I use 1 oz of fuel for three or four days in the summer. With alcohol I use 3/4 oz per day in summer. Melting snow and bringing it to a boil takes a heck of a lot more then twice that amount.

Anybody that plans to rely on their stove for water should practice first in a controlled environment. Learn what you really need.

For those making a base I found out the hard way that glue does not hold in cold temps. The blue pad was for my MSR XGK EX (still in my pot at the time) and it had a neat little rectangular curb to hold the bottle in the optimum spot. The first night hit -31 F and I got up to find the foam popped off during the night. Now I use the alum tape to hold things together for winter.

@Ray: That's a really slick stove pad. I like that it can fit in the stove bag. Most impressive.

@Daniel: You could try just using a round, stiff piece of heavy aluminum foil (e.g. an MSR brand heat refector), but I haven't found them to be stable enough. The aluminum gets hot after a while and wants to melt down into the snow. On really hard, icy snow, you might be able to get away with it, but I don't think it'll work in deep powder. A 10" x 10" square of the cheapie blue CCF doesn't weigh much...

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

I generally use a very thin square of Masonite, maybe 5 or 6 inches on a side. This gets me the stability. That can be covered with simple aluminum foil to get me the reflectivity.

On some trips I've done the same thing, except that I used heavy cardboard instead of Masonite. The cardboard will eventually get wet and fold up.

--B.G.--

I never have used liquid fuel stove since I'm new to backpacking and brand new to snow camping. I use canister stoves in summer ($8 ebay or Jetboil) how does it directly compare with doubling the fuel allowance. From my previous experience, I saw a 100gm canister going empty in less than a day, fortunately I had another 230gm spare canister and saved my second day camping.

On the stove base, how about cutting a 4mm plywood and covering it with aluminum foil. Or use a small kitchen chopping board.

"4mm plywood"

That's not too much different from Masonite.

Also, if you are a newbie to white gas stoves, it is a prudent idea to keep your white gas divided into two separate bottles. From the standpoint of weight, it is not a great idea. From the standpoint of reliability, it is. Occasionally a user in the field will leave a bottle cap loose and a lot leaks out. If that is your only bottle of fuel, it is a huge problem.

As a result, I would often leave home with my MSR stove packaged with one full fuel bottle, and another full fuel bottle was somewhere else in my pack.

--B.G.--

good idea BG. I will carry two bottles. BTW I got some Coleman Camp fuel which was $9 a gallon. Like Jim suggested, I will filter it through a coffee filter before using it.

The conditions you mention in your original post seem similar to what I usually experience on my spring Sierra backcountry ski trips. I use an MSR Simmerlite. My cooking style is very simple - I only eat meals that are add boiling water - no simmering or anything. I light the stove once in the morning and once in the evening,melt (if needed) and boil (or just heat) what I need. With that in mind, what I have found is that if I am melting snow, I need about 3 oz per day for one person, and 4 1/2 for two (by weight). I have also found that when I find water and don't have to melt, it is indeed about half that fuel usage. This is based on a number of years of keeping track. So I would think that if your meals are similar, 4 oz per day should be a safe bet, should give you plenty. If you need to simmer or anything else, then add to that.

But what may not be relevant is summer usage, unless your meals are identical. In my case, I don't eat hot breakfasts or have many hot drinks in the summer, while I do in the snow. So my summer fuel usage would be significantly less per day than my non-melting snow usage, and thus if I doubled my summer usage I would not have enough for melting.

"I will filter it through a coffee filter before using it."

Many years ago, I purchased a can of Coleman fuel and started to use it in two MSR stoves. Very soon later, both stoves had a severe drop-off in performance, and it seemed like a fuel flow problem. Disassembly of the stoves was conducted, and I reamed out the hard fuel delivery tube underneath the burner to find a clog in each one. The clog turned out to be melted plastic. The plastic turned out to be formed from plastic millings from the cap on the Coleman can.

So, filtering the new Coleman fuel through anything is a good idea. I do it as I pour it into my Sigg fuel bottles.

--B.G.--

thanks BG. I can spare few minutes to filter the fuel than pay 4x the price for MSR fuel.

I would guess that MSR fuel and Coleman fuel come out of the same tanker truck.

--B.G.--

Yes,

I cant PM you cause "you haven't specified a personal message address" yet


I think you have to submit an email. I have seen where people have not be able to see other's PM status. If you HAVE set up your PM's and I just can't see it- hit me up again and send you email and I'll respond directly if ya want.

> > "4mm plywood"
> That's not too much different from Masonite.

True, except that thin 3-ply is a lot lighter than Masonite. The 3-ply works well for me in the snow, never letting the snow underneath melt.

Cheers

I camp between 4000 and 7000 feet about once a week or so. I use an MSR XGK EX. All my water is derived from melting snow. 2 weeks ago, me and two friends were camped in a snow cave at ~5500' with the XGK. We went through about 700ml of fuel during a 30 hr. period [weekend - one night] to provide water/boiling needs for three people. We also had a MSR Reactor doing a tiny bit of cooking. I was using a 2 litre MSR Titan pot with an MSR Heat Exchanger. We did all our cooking/boiling inside the snow cave and there was always an aluminum heat deflector/wind screen around the entire assembly [pot and stove]. We were backcountry skiing and thus required a fair bit of water [it's thirsty work]. I brought one 1 litre fuel bottle that contained about 887 ml of fuel. Not a huge margin of safety if we'd gotten injured or "tent bound". For your trip, I'd personally recommend having at least two 1 litre fuel bottles [~ 1.7 litres] minimum. Given that you'll be with other people, your safety margin doesn't need to be excessive.

I have zero experience with your stove in question, but this is a question that is dependent upon many things: where you'll be cooking [outside or in a tent vestibule]; type of pot; windscreen?; ambient temperatures; wind speed; altitude etc. Obviously, a windscreen should be used to reduce boil times/fuel consumption.

Always important to be cautious with fuel in the winter - no fuel - no water. At 7000' there's rarely any fuel to build a fire either.

So here's what I found when experimenting without any insulation between the bottom reflector and the snow.

1) The esbit folding stove is simply no-good at melting a large volume of snow. Most folks probably knew this already. But I like to test things for myself. First, without a reflector at all, within 5 minutes the stove had sunk enough for the bottom to get water logged and extinguish the fuel bricks. Using a couple of thick foil squares ( not sure which stove these came with, fyi ) it took 7 fuel bricks to render 2 litres of water to a kinda-sorta rolling boil. There were plenty of little bubbles directly over the bottom of the pot where the flame was touching the bottom of the pot. It also took 50 minutes. At about the 40 minute mark, the stove had created a crater in the snow, and I had to move the stove to keep it stable.

2) Using an MSR windpro was way-way better. I used the included round bottom reflector, without insulation between it and the snow. The canister was inverted the entire time. It took 20 minutes to render the same 2 litres of boiling water. The boil was much stronger. I didn't measure the fuel usage, but I started out with one of the larger canisters, and at the end, it feels like it used about half the canister.

Questions for the future: I'm thinking that the insulation between the reflector and the stove may not be needed, but it may improve boil times by breaking the connection between the snow, bottom reflector, and the feet of the stove. I can imagine how this would create a heat sink situation where the stove was being cooled off by its contact with the cold snow. Additionally the added stability will be helpful so that a pot of melting snow can be left somewhat unattended while working on other matters in camp.

I'm looking fwd to trying some of the reflector suggestions on this thread. Thanks again for the insights.

-daniel-

Has anybody tried heating their inverted canister with a tea candle? ( in winter of course)

It seems if you were vigilant... If it were really cold it might not even be enough?

Experts?
Normals?

> heating their inverted canister with a tea candle? ( in winter of course)
Technically feasible, and unlikely to get the canister too hot in a short period, but there is a bit of a logistics problem.

You have to juggle getting the pot on the stove, not spilling the pot by jerking the stove or the hose, arranging the canister upside down, looking after the windshield, sitting the candle under the canister, and not setting fire to anything with either the flaming stove or the candle. Can be tricky!

may I suggest sitting the canister in a bowl of cool liquid water instead? Much safer, and very effective.

Cheers

I have a windpro with the nifty stand that keeps it up off the ground. easy to adjust, stays in place, about 1 tea candles worth of ground clearance. :)

My windscreen is a caldera cone turned upside down so its pretty stable. (the hose goes out through the pot holder cutout)

//


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I might try this candle thing. I figure since the can is constantly cooling off the candle is getting battled and therefore shouldn't overheat it, but I guess there is a temp limit. (and probably not a good idea with a FULL canister)

I think you'd be all right with a tea light candle. The trick is to just keep feeling the canister with your hand. If the canister feels hot to the touch, get that little candle the heck out of there. You'd want to be careful to not melt your canister stand.

Still, I would think water, as Roger suggested, would be easier to deal with. You don't have to worry about melting your canister stand; you don't have to worry about the candle melting into the snow; you don't have to worry about the candle blowing out; and you don't have to worry about overheating your canister.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving