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Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: wow on 03/03/2013 10:27:03 MST Print View

Eric,

That's a legit concern about durability and washing and hopefully we'll see some answers about that in the coming weeks.

I think it was just a bit overshadowed by your typical bias against higher cost gear. I think it could have went without saying that this jacket is expensive - we can all see that, and we've moved past it already. Value, however, is a more personal thing and can't be preached.

Fortunately for my wallet I have no need for such a warm jacket. The high fill power down has my interest though for the future of sleeping bags.

Edited by 7sport on 03/03/2013 10:28:49 MST.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: wow on 03/03/2013 13:06:43 MST Print View

"I was surprised and disappointed to see they used a one way zip. I'm sure they'll get a lot of flack for this as its pretty much expected in a belay parka."

Hey Serge,

Check out this pic from a catalog that just showed up in the mail. Interesting that the production unit didn't keep the zipper shown here. I agree, poor choice on their part.

Pata

It's absent from the list of jacket features on the following page as well

Bobby Ess
(persianpunisher) - F
Double zipper explanation on 03/03/2013 14:13:30 MST Print View

Casey Shaw explains why they didn't use a double zipper in the latest "The Cleanest Line" blog post....

I've been testing the hell out of this piece in the backwoods around Boulder/RMNP/and some days out in the Wasatch.

The shell is surprisingly durable (although I have actually had 1 down cluster leak, so far)- my bad for asserting it was the 15 denier in the UL hoody- I didn't think Patagonia would outsource and start using Pertex (naive of me).

Those who have worn I can also assert that it is probably the "most puffy" jacket around. It's so chock full of down, that the baffles are firm, similar to a temperpedic foam, but MUCH lighter.

Note: it has an integrated stuff sack. Mine did not come with a cord lock though- Serge, do the ones in store have em ?

The hood is retardedly puffy and very effective at protecting the face.

It's a pretty epic piece for sub 25 degree temps. Worth the $700? Probably not- is it going to "raise the bar" on Dry Down? Absolutely- it already has.

The minute this stuff makes its way into sleeping bags, it's going to be game over for a lot of manufacturers.

Eric, with all due respect, I think your points about the jacketing being washed regularly is rather moot. Non-DWR down shouldn't be washed more than twice a year anyway- if Patagonia is willing to clean your jacket (for free), it mitigates a lot of the negatives about down. I also wear my down jackets in my home to offset heating costs- I soon learned that a 200 wt fleece (or cotton hoody) is just as effective, more durable and A LOT easier to clean.

So in the summer months, when the Encapsil Down Belay Parka would be overkill (unless mountaineering)- it makes sense to have a program to that allows folks to get their down washed in the off season for free (more manufacturers ought do this, btw).

I have to pay MHW $25 plus shipping to have my Phantom 32 bag washed.

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Sleeping Bag Price on 03/03/2013 14:35:42 MST Print View

I think it wll be a long time before the price of this tech comes into sleeping bags. You are right now looking at double the cost of current downfill bags. So where most useful in winter bags you would be looking $1200 bags (double what current 0F bags cost). Even for summer bags they would probably be in the 700 range.

So probably 3 to 5 years before this will only be a 20 to 30% premium on regular bags.

Bobby Ess
(persianpunisher) - F
Great point, Greg on 03/03/2013 14:52:01 MST Print View

Greg, great point. I totally disregarded how much down is used to fill these bags... My bad

Edited by persianpunisher on 03/03/2013 15:20:36 MST.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: A very flat place (Grrrrrrrr)
Re: no comparison on 03/03/2013 15:41:19 MST Print View

Cheers for that Serge :-)

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
""The Finest Down Parka Ever" (Patagonia)" on 03/03/2013 17:02:25 MST Print View

I agree with Tom Lyon's comment, "Eventually, after the hype is gone, they are going to realize that they will have to sell these things for prices people can afford." The $700 price tag is aimed at a very elite group. Most people simply don't have the coin to drop that much on a jacket.

I don't get the "limited edition" thing. It's a coat. It's either going to be a closet queen for people who want it to retain full value, or it'll get used. I would not pay a premium to have a "limited edition" coat, because I use mine.

I agree with Eric on the cleaning. "Free" or not (nothing's free- it's built into the price) it would be a PITA to have to send that back once or twice a year and wait for them to clean it and return it. Shoot, I avoid purchasing "dry clean only" items. No way am I going to buy something that has to be cleaned at the factory.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: ""The Finest Down Parka Ever" (Patagonia)" on 03/03/2013 17:20:13 MST Print View

Yeah, shipping it off and actually having to wait is just sooo inconvenient. I mean how can any self-respecting dirtbagger imagine actually having to take 5min out their Summer climbing/hiking to find a phone and call Patagonia and request service, wait for UPS driver to show up at your van and hand them the coat, wait another 2-3 weeks for Patagonia to fix all the little holes, lube the zips and get all that high tec down nice and lofty again, and return the jacket like new to base camp. Afterall any REAL dirtbagger is out peak bagging 24/7 in Summer to make the most of those above freezing temps. Whatta waste since all this time the jacket could have been safe and unused stuffed in the pack. The horror....

Edited by rmjapan on 03/03/2013 18:35:33 MST.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: ""The Finest Down Parka Ever" (Patagonia)" on 03/03/2013 18:02:31 MST Print View

I was freaked out the first couple of times I used the first puffy I ever got, with its thin shell and gossamer feel to it. And that only set me back $130.

I eventually realized that it was just a jacket, that it would hold up just fine if I wasn't totally careless with it, and that it probably performed nearly as well as any other more expensive jackets.

Oohh, I sound like eric.. ;)


Oh, and I'm still using that jacket... and can wash it myself.

Edited by T.L. on 03/03/2013 18:03:23 MST.

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Re: Re: Re: ""The Finest Down Parka Ever" (Patagonia)" on 03/03/2013 18:29:51 MST Print View

Isn't complaining that you have to ship it away to be washed just like complaining that you have to careful with a neoair so you don't puncture it?

We buy gear based on a set of criteria to meet our needs and sacrifices we can live with. So if you are doing lots of hiking and climbing in frigid conditions where loss of loft from sweat is a big issue for you than this jacket has a solution. It has a draw back of needing to be sent away to be washed but really this jacket is a seasonal piece or a trip specific piece so finding a month to not use it shouldn't be too hard.

So complain about the price tag if anything but the real question before complaining is do you have a use for this piece? Are you consistently seeing loft loss in down pieces for use below 0F? Are you looking to look cool wearing the most expensive down jacket you can find? If you do not fall into one of these to categories this jacket really isn't targeted at you.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: "The Finest Down Parka Ever" (Patagonia) on 03/03/2013 19:34:40 MST Print View

I dont care if that coat puts out on the first date. No way I'm spending $700 (which is a lot to me) on softgoods.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
shipping ;) on 03/03/2013 21:23:14 MST Print View

well the question isnt about the "problem" of shipping it in ... but what will happen with the with other nano-down pieces that will come out ...

will we have to ship those in as well, and will they be premium pieces as a result ... or will they be stuff you can wash regularly

we all know DWR will wear off with shells ... now it likely wont wear out as fast with down ... but the big differences is that you CANT reapply this nano coating yourself, unlike DWR with shells

will you be able to wash future nano-down pieces regularly? ... if so how "fast" will they degrade? ....

since you CANT reapply it right now ... what happens as it wears out, how long does it take, does it become a normal 800 fill jacket then, etc ...

like i said FORGET ABOUT THIS JACKET ... the more important question is this nano-down degradation ;)

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Help! My Encapsil down gets wet on 03/03/2013 22:09:07 MST Print View

"Patagonia Ironclad Guarantee

If you are not satisfied with one of our products at the time you receive it, or if one of our products does not perform to your satisfaction, you may return it to us for a repair, replacement or refund. Damage due to wear and tear will be repaired at a reasonable charge."

Works for me.

Edited by rmjapan on 03/04/2013 00:51:16 MST.

Martin RJ Carpenter
(MartinCarpenter) - F
Treatment Durability on 03/04/2013 04:59:18 MST Print View

How and what fails it not washed, precisely when it needs washing (still two times a year even if just sitting about?) etc really are quite important to ask.

If it does require specalist washing twice a year regardless than no chance that the tech will ever scale to any degree. It would also represent a pretty offensive use of resources compared to normal down!

Of course its only the water resistance which could be worth it here. The claimed loft really isn't anything especially special (900fp European down already out there) and won't be saving more than ~25g overall vs merely good down anyway.

At least, unlike quite a few treated down things, its box walled and has a proofed outer. Sane :)

William Chilton
(WilliamC3) - MLife

Locale: Antakya
Re: Treatment Durability on 03/04/2013 06:08:46 MST Print View

I don't think that Patagonia is recommending washing twice a year as standard. They seem to be saying twice a year as maximum.
"We strongly recommend infrequent cleaning of any down product (and certainly not more than
twice a year) to ensure that your garment has a long, effective life."

Martin RJ Carpenter
(MartinCarpenter) - F
Fair enough on 03/04/2013 07:54:13 MST Print View

Seems I was maybe slightly confused cf the washing :)

Having checked it almost appears as if they're worried about detergents etc masking the down treatment. Which is a little odd as surely people buying something like this would know not to do that? My impression was that most people got at least sleeping bags cleaned for them anyway.

Comforting that they reckon they use less energy than home drying even with shipping. (due to tumble dryer use.). We'll see.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Treatment Durability on 03/04/2013 12:23:03 MST Print View

I must say it's a beautiful looking jacket, but I won't be saving for one. I would rarely use something THAT warm, and having to ship it to and from NZ for cleaning would be a deal-breaker even if I could use something that warm. However, if I lived or hiked in much colder climes, and lived in an area where shipping wasn't too bad, I would be tempted...

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
""The Finest Down Parka Ever" (Patagonia)" on 03/04/2013 13:45:04 MST Print View

"Isn't complaining that you have to ship it away to be washed just like complaining that you have to careful with a neoair so you don't puncture it?"

No. We're not discussing the durability of the product. We're discussing cleaning, which is a basic maintenance issue. And it's not complaining- it's a valid feedback that some of us see the requirement of factory cleaning to be a deal breaker even if the price point wasn't already too high. I own exactly 1 piece of gear that has to be returned to the factory for maintenance and that is my McMurdo FastFind PLB that has a factory installed battery. It wasn't a dealbreaker for me because the battery requires changing only once every 5 years and I anticipate that at the point the battery actually requires changing the technology behind PLB's will have come so much further that I will opt to buy a new unit rather than replace the battery in what will probably be considered a dinosaur.

It's just feedback. What works for me may not work for you and vice-versa. I see differing points of view as being a good thing, personally.

Brian Abram
(boglins)

Locale: The South
Sold out on 03/04/2013 17:18:56 MST Print View

So the jacket is sold out. Some of the arguing at this point might be a bit misplaced. Can someone like Goose Feet make basically a 900fp standard down clone at a similar or reduced weight? Maybe without the snow skirt or chest pocket but using the baffling, neck draft collar, and apparent overfill that the Encapsil has?

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Sold out on 03/04/2013 17:45:33 MST Print View

Well there is the Montbell USA Mirage. Not as warm with only half the fill, but also nearly half the weight and more appropriate for the typical winter temps expected by most hikers/trekkers. Strange they did not offer it Japan first.

With the sellout of the Encapsil, we will now see the REAL BETA testing begin.