Should I be carrying more Dead Birds?
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Richard Lyon
(richardglyon) - MLife

Locale: Bridger Mountains
Westcomb on 02/21/2013 14:24:10 MST Print View

Max - Occasionally for sale at departmentofgoods.com [backcountry.com's outlet} and as someone noted sometimes deeply discounted at smaller online shops. Google "westcomb" and some of the screen scrapers like Nextag will spot the bargains.

I really like Westcomb products. I have a couple of jackets, a pair of hiking pants, and a heavyweight fleece hoody that's terrific. This company tends to make stuff with an athletic fit, which to me indicates a focus on technical use rather than appearance. I've reviewed one of the jackets and the pants at BackpackGearTest.org if you are interested in details.

Richard

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Westcomb on 02/21/2013 14:39:26 MST Print View

Westcomb is good stuff. Same athletic fit as Arcteryx, more innovative, made in Canada and less expensive. Plus they use both NeoShell and eVent membranes. Their 9oz Focus LT rain jacket probably has the best cut for tall slim guys of any UL rain jkt currently available.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
That's me! on 02/21/2013 14:59:14 MST Print View

Hey, I'm a tall slim guy! I'll check them out, thanks for the info!

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Westcomb on 02/21/2013 15:00:02 MST Print View

Agreed, Westcomb is a very very good alternative to Arcteryx. My GF has a westcomb event shell...I can't tell the difference between it and any arcteryx piece i've owned in the past. Quality stuff. LIke Dan mentioned, Arcteryx is dragged down by the Giant Goretex Ball and Chain...really stifles their products, but of course there are a lot of politics and commercial reasons behind obeying the Gore juggernaut.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/23/2013 23:52:18 MST Print View

"the reliability graphs from consumer reports which you quoted, speak for themselves"

Yes, they do. The current 328 is as reliable as the current civic. But offers much better handling, acceleration, braking, safety features, looks, luxury, fit and finish, paint quality, etc.

What's your point.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Re: Durability on 02/24/2013 01:01:33 MST Print View

I'm sorry, but you really should have done you homework on the Super Mica (and your other gear) before heading out to the bush for winter backpacking.... poor form.

Everything I've owned from Arcteryx has been incredibly durable... for the most part... Atom LT/SV, Alpha LT/SV, Theta SV.... but then again, I am not paying anywhere near full price (or even 50% off) of this, if at all.

Dead Bird is used by my colleagues in Spec Ops In Afghanistan- if it holds up for them, it's going to hold up to your endeavors with your college outdoor club.

But as with all gear, the same rule applies: the more durable, the less light. And vice versus. The key is finding the balance you need....

I ski 100+ days in the shell that I backpack in. Is it heavy, (18ozs)? For many of you, yes. But I charged through trees, scraped it against granite (and even barbed wire) and it still looks brand new....

Hope this helps...

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 02:20:56 MST Print View

Yes, they do. The current 328 is as reliable as the current civic. But offers much better handling, acceleration, braking, safety features, looks, luxury, fit and finish, paint quality, etc.

What's your point.


the point is that the 3 series will costs substantially more initially, more in maintenance, more in gas ... and not do a darn thing legally better than any civic, corolla, elantra, etc ...

as millions of the aforementioned car owners who use em just fine can attest to every day

basically youre paying to "look" and "feel" good ... and "luxury" ;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/24/2013 02:27:17 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Durability on 02/24/2013 07:23:19 MST Print View

"I'm sorry, but you really should have done you homework on the Super Mica (and your other gear) before heading out to the bush for winter backpacking.... poor form."

I bought it before reviews existed, so I could test it. High risk, potentially high reward. I like to live dangerously and wasn't complaining. I returned the jacket and got a nicer one in it's stead for no cost to me.

Babak, if this is because I called you out in the Patagonia thread, grow up. I'm not humoring you if you want to start a BPL rivalry. Go hang out with your "contacts" in TNF and your "colleagues" in special ops, you don't have the time for the likes of me.

Edited by mdilthey on 02/24/2013 07:24:33 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 07:29:25 MST Print View

No Eric. You are paying for far more performance, better ride, much higher fit and finish and tactile feel. Better steering, handling, acceleration, and even better gas mileage than some Civics. Now add the look, both inside and out, the quality of the paint, the interior plastics, the small panel gaps, and the incredible technology and we can see where the extra money went. Turbos that produce lots of power but have mileage better than the Si version of the Civic. Direct injection on the BMW, airbags in places the Civic didn't know was possible...I could on and on.

I loved Top Gear's comparison of the Toyota Prius and the BMW M3, the latter of which has a V8. Around their track and driven flat out, the Prius achieved under 20 mpg. The BMW driven less than flat out but at the same speed as the Prius achieved better fuel economy. The point being that it is how you drive rather than what you drive. Lets see. Better potential gas mileage and yet 444 hp when you want to have some fun. Neat. Fuel economy is not the only marker of performance. Not even close,

Did I mention the free maintenance on new BMW's?

This is what you get with Arcteryx. Better everything for the price. No question. Whether or not you can or want to afford it is up to you. But I find it incredible disingenuous when the posters on this thread try to discount the product simply because of my previous statement. These are the same people that won't buy silnylon and rush to cuben at 3 times the price. I won't buy cuben but I don't ignore the performance benefits of the product.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Off topic, but who cares? on 02/24/2013 07:31:30 MST Print View

My family has owned Volkswagens for 15 years, relentlessly. A good allegory for the german-made BMW. The occasional covered maintenance is worth it for the absolutely amazing drive of every vehicle we've bought, except the Routan. That one sucks.

This is so off-topic, but I'm not upset about it. Haha!

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Off topic, but who cares? on 02/24/2013 07:32:38 MST Print View

As long as the OP is okay with the thread drift....; )

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 09:28:52 MST Print View

This is what you get with Arcteryx. Better everything for the price. No question. Whether or not you can or want to afford it is up to you. But I find it incredible disingenuous when the posters on this thread try to discount the product simply because of my previous statement. These are the same people that won't buy silnylon and rush to cuben at 3 times the price. I won't buy cuben but I don't ignore the performance benefits of the product.

oh david

TELL ME ... what are you doing "better" LEGALLY with your BEE-MAH ... the transcanada only goes so fast .. and you definitely dont need one to max out the limits ... nor ANY highway in canada ... you arent street racing are you ????

tell me EXACTLY what you did with your "better performance" in your dead bird ... will you go any faster, higher, harder with it????

what PERFORMANCE benefit does a dead bird have over some other piece like OR or EB?????? ... name me ONE thing that has been done in a dead bird that cant be done with anything else ...

i cordially invite you to squamish, well do the grand wall together ... i wont wear any dead birds, you wear all the ones you want ... well split the leads ... you should be much stronger than me with the fancy logos ;)


as for BEEMAHS vs priuses ... heres the comparison that matters for LEGAL driving in real life

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Re: Re: Re: Durability on 02/24/2013 10:08:18 MST Print View

Sorry, the way you framed it was that you in a dangerous spot due to your gear failing...... Glad you made it back safe.

(I also purchased a Super Mica prior to the reviews coming out...... and I was disappointed with the durability.... I've neve backpacked in the NE- but I found it not too flimsy for any thing with a pack weighing more than 10lbs)

Cheers

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 10:38:39 MST Print View

Sorry Eric, you will need to read my post again. You rely on stats and links without considering real world tests and specifications. You are using EPA standards and ignoring real world driving habits or more importantly, real tests. Did you look up what i posted? Didn't think so. You are lacking the aptitude to either read properly, comprehensive what you are reading or are reading every third word. Now you are going to talk to me about traffic laws? Make the incorrect assumption that I am racing on the streets?

Do you know anything about efficiency? If a large motor works less hard to produce the same amount of power and torque, it is more efficient and will use less fuel to run. It will also last longer. Prius batteries have had limited long term durability. I will ignore the fires.

You are using EPA standards and ignoring how someone actually drives. I surmise you generally take the bus.

Not to mention cherry picking. Of course the Prius gets better gas mileage if you drive easy but that is hard with greater levels of traffic or have you forgotten where you live? That also wasn't my point. I was showing that power and decent mileage are a possible marriage. I didn't even bring up diesel motors.

Ah, what the hell. The BMW 320 diesel can get....67 mpg ( still out performs any Civic while holding onto all of the other aforementioned benefits). Oh and this beats the Prius as well based on manufacturer stats. Regardless, one won't get close to these figures in either car but since you continue to post manufacture stats, I will oblige.

How are Arcteryx products better than the competition? Once again, you could re-read my posts but I suspect that this will take some effort on your part so I will summarize: higher manufacturing quality, tighter seam tolerances with less tape, better zippers, better designed hoods, athletic fit, higher levels of durability, much better ride, braking, handling, safety options, ability to avoid obstacles, excellent warranty, very high re-sale value, and the list goes on.

Oh, and I don't own a BMW. A Honda and an Acura. There goes your third assumption.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 02/24/2013 10:39:27 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 10:43:07 MST Print View

"outdoor gear is so good in general that brands are irrelevant"

Not to you they aren't. You take ever opportunity to slam 'Dead Bird' and "PataGucci" and even Mchale any chance you get.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 10:54:41 MST Print View

again david ... what are you doing that needs a dead bird ???? ... how much harder, faster, longer are you going in it?

u will noticed in my posts on this thread that i said look at the particular piece ... not the brand name ...

lets go through it again ...

"performance" - more crazy things have been done without dead birds than with ... the best climbers, alpinists, or even "hikers" use all different sorts of gear ...

"durability" - well that depends on the piece ... the harnesses are know for wearing out quickly ... the "UL" packs dont last any longer because of the logo ... konrad posted the link about issues with even their flagship rain jacket

"service" - walk into any MEC, REI, EB, lands end, OR, LL Bean ... and you get better "service" ... if you want to test this theory i will feed one of my OR jackets to a cute cuddly household pet, you do the same with your dead bird ... well tell them the unvarnished truth ... lets see what happens


and even Mchale any chance you get.

and where did i slam mchale??? ... or are ya confused ;)

as for BEE-MAAHS ... youre paying 20k+ canadian over a perfectly normal, reliable, functional care that costs less to run ... doesnt do anything better LEGALLY on the road .. and killing more polar bears as a result

whether a person gets one is their choice ... but its not going to make em any better except for climbing the social ladder ... and with the record amount of debt canadians are in, people probably shouldnt be going into debt buying em ...

and here REAL WORLD gas milleage on the bmw 320d by real owners



http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1105315&d=11724.17124&nmt=

the EPA site has REAL WORLD reported gas mileage by owners as well ... as do many other sites ... go check em if you dare

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/24/2013 11:05:49 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:11:59 MST Print View

--"what are you doing that needs a dead bird ???? ... how much harder, faster, longer are you going in it?"

This is a terrible argument. Getting a piece of gear that is built well doesn't mean you HAVE to push it up to specs.

--""performance" - more crazy things have been done without dead birds than with ... the best climbers, alpinists, or even "hikers" use all different sorts of gear ..."

This is even worse! Seriously? Because someone brings a North Face jacket to the top of Everest, another unrelated company isn't worth it? I asked for reasonable advice. You're just being wholly irrelevant!

--""service" - walk into any MEC, REI, EB, lands end, OR, LL Bean ... and you get better "service" ... if you want to test this theory i will feed one of my OR jackets to a cute cuddly household pet, you do the same with your dead bird ... well tell them the unvarnished truth ... lets see what happens"

I don't really care what service offers better replacements for something completely irrelevant to the use of my gear. My dog eats dog food.


Finally,

--"as for BEE-MAAHS ... youre paying 20k+ canadian over a perfectly normal, reliable, functional care that costs less to run ... doesnt do anything better LEGALLY on the road .. and killing more polar bears as a result"

Passing a Semi on the highway quickly reminds you why you paid for your horsepower. having the ability to quickly accelerate is real-world useful, fun, legal, and incredibly fulfilling for the price paid. Amenities within the car like trim and styling aren't worth it to you but they're VERY worth it to THOUSANDS, if not millions of drivers. You can't just claim that someone is wrong for wanting nice things- a great majority of people like nice things and some earn them.

If you are just going to keep repeating the "Both get you from A to B" argument while ignoring the abstract benefits of horsepower and aesthetics, you're just going to be ignored by everyone. The internet gives the illusion of people caring by the response, but if you had this conversation in real life you'd be mired in awkward silence and abandonment.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
BMW & Arcteryx on 02/24/2013 11:12:21 MST Print View

Trying to justify BMW or Arcteryx to Eric is seemingly equivalent to trying to justify hiking to my non hiking friends. They just don't get it. Never will. So I don't bother. And we all live happily ever after.

I drive an M5 and a Hyundai. I won't try to justify the extra cost and poorer gas mileage of the M5 to a non-car-enthusiast, because they'll never understand. Giving them a ride in it sometimes goes a long way towards making them understand though. And it doesn't require breaking any laws to feel the difference between the two cars. In fact driving both back to back actually makes the BMW feel that much more worthy.


Oh and to keep this relevant to Arcteryx and their service: They just replaced a wind vest I use for running. My dog had eaten the zipper pull off of it. He really likes the taste of expensive outdoor clothing and tv remotes. I think I had to pay for shipping to WA, but can't remember for sure. No other costs or questions. And I didn't buy it from them either.

Edited by 7sport on 02/24/2013 11:17:58 MST.

Dan D
(TXBDan)

Locale: Boston, MA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:13:06 MST Print View

The qualitative difference between a Civic and a BMW is far greater than an Arcteryx or REI brand shell. Poor analogy.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: BMW & Arcteryx on 02/24/2013 11:16:21 MST Print View

so its a "feel good" thing?

that explains it all ;)