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Should I be carrying more Dead Birds?
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eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 10:53:58 MST Print View

You can drive a Hyundai Accent or a BMW 335. Both will get you from A to B, but the latter will provide measurable increases in quality and durability.

a good civic or corolla will beat the BEEE-MAHHH any day for reliability ... and do the same job for MUCH cheaper ;)

just saying =P

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 10:56:02 MST Print View

"outdoor gear is so good in general that brands are irrelevant"

Interesting and probably true!

I wouldn't get a pack from Arcteryx. or a cotton T-shirt, or a baseball cap. That's where you can tell they're just marketing the brand. Which is alright by me! I mean, if your brand becomes synonymous with status, you have the right to capitalize on it a little. I will stick with what I consider their "specialty," which to me is technical garments with innovative fabrics.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Arcteryx is not that bombproof. on 02/21/2013 10:59:51 MST Print View

I too left Arcteryx for Rab a long time ago...never looked back. Fot the average individual (e.g., Konrad1013 not Conrad Anker) Rab gear is durable, the cut is great, the fabric technology is superior...and the price point is better (not taking into account sale prices)

I don't agree that Arcteryx gear is bomb proof and justifies their high price. This exact problem happened to me and many many other users out there:
https://twitter.com/ETWerner/status/198055776596656129

Mind you, this was on their top of the line $600 Alpha SV jacket. Why they decided to laminate the hem and not just stitch it like every other company is beyond me. You know how there's stupid light? This is an example of stupid innovation.


Arcteryx Warranty is a pain in the ass. If you live in the US, you have to ship it to Washington, where it gets picked up by a contractor, then transported to Canada, where Arcteryx in their sole discretion will decide to replace or repair. O yeah, then there's the 6 week wait time if you're doing the warranty in their winter busy season.

OR warranty is miles ahead. This is a typical OR warranty issue:

Me: Hi, I blew out the stitching on my XYZ (this has happened to me twice)
OR: Ok no problem we are sending a replacement pair to you in the mail tomorrow. Just return your old pair when you get the chance
Me: Thanks, bye.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised people don't try to rip them off more. I always wait for my replacement pair before sending back my busted pair. I doubt they would follow up with me if I never sent back the duds.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/21/2013 11:09:09 MST.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:00:09 MST Print View

"I wouldn't get a pack from Arcteryx.....That's where you can tell they're just marketing the brand."

Interesting you say that, yet you just bought a fleece from their casual line.


As for the base layers you're asking about - if you mean the Phase line: yes the SL is a great material. Super lightweight and really pulls the sweat off of you and distributes it throughout the fabric quite well to evaporate off. I've got a phase AR hoody as well that is super nice.

Joe S
(ThreeRidges) - M
Base layers on 02/21/2013 11:05:08 MST Print View

I picked up some Phase base layers on huge discount from BC, and a fleece. Could not be happier. The base layers are super warm for their weight, and very comfortable. The fleece is bomb proof. Can't bring myself to pay full price, though.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:06:38 MST Print View

"I wouldn't get a pack from Arcteryx.....That's where you can tell they're just marketing the brand."

"Interesting you say that, yet you just bought a fleece from their casual line."

+1. Their fleeces have become their lifestyle brand. Their packs (including the Boras) are still respectable. How much technology can you put in a fleece when every major player is sourcing their material from polartec or malden mills? A arcteryx fleece is no way better than a patagonia fleece or mhw fleece that uses the same material, yet they demand $50 more at least.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/21/2013 11:07:10 MST.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:08:50 MST Print View

>yet they demand $50 more at least.

It's stitched together with hair from golden unicorns.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:09:30 MST Print View

i use their gamma and rampart pants, which are quite good

the atom LT,im less fond off ..

the fleece tops, i dont bother wearing outside, i save that for "social" occasions ... i wear my cheap MEC fleeces climbing real rock

their harnesses blow out quickly (do an internet search) but then you just keep on taking em back to MEC or wherever ...

the windshirts/vest/pants are quite breathable ...but i would never pay 150$ for a windshirt, i put pinholes in em fairly quickly

base layers i use MEC or nike or wallymart/target, which i can get on DEEP sale .. they arent any less durable

the best use of dead birds IMO ... city wear, especially in vancouver where one can look "stylish" and deal with the elements at the same time ... thats not to say that they wont do the job like any other brand where it counts, but nice styling and colours arent needed for the great outdoors

if you are someone who wants a single piece for both the occasional outdoors, and standing in like at whole foods ... and walking your dog in the rain ... then dead bird is the way to go ...

this isnt a knock on the "quality" of the gear .... because standing outside for hours in the soaking rain every day 6+ months a year is probably a better test than what many people put their outdoor gear through

the one thing that "gets" me is that they are charging $$$$$ prices for things that are made in some sweatshop overseas ... at least with something like westcomb, which has superior "quality", its made in vancouver,bc

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:10:08 MST Print View

Doh! I also forgot that the collars are lined with the fur of baby canadian seals. Nevermind, buy buy buy!!

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/21/2013 11:10:38 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Digressions. on 02/21/2013 11:10:42 MST Print View

I know my fleece is the "casual" line, but by material, fit, and weight, it's ahead of the others I looked at and it was a steal. I'm not disappointed.

If anything, I think it looks pretty sharp. I'm not saying I care about looks when I buy technical gear, because I don't, but if I get the bonus of looking professional when I'm guiding a bunch of rowdy 18-22 year olds through the White Mountains, I'll take the boost to my perceived authority and expertise.

I digress.

Delamination factors on a lot of different stuff, but if Arcteryx backs their gear I'll risk my use falling outside of the "expected." That being said, I don't intend to buy a $600 jacket from them, not remotely. In my eyes, the Patagonia one I found for $150 is already overkill. Rain jackets for my use need to be small in packability and weight, and it's really hard to break over $300 when you're skimping on features and material as much as possible for weight and bulk.

I digress.

I didn't mean to imply that Arcteryx was the end-all, be-all of outdoors gear, but I DO mean to imply that the items I've seen so far seem to be a cut above, and if others have experienced long-term reliability and good service from this company, I can justify paying out $150 for a baselayer and some more for a pair of pants.

Mark Andrews
(buldogge) - F

Locale: Midwest
Ahem... on 02/21/2013 11:11:08 MST Print View

Eric...FWIW...You've just claimed that a civic/corolla will cost less and be more reliable than a BMW motorcycle. Beemers are bikes, Bimmers are cars. :P

"a good civic or corolla will beat the BEEE-MAHHH any day for reliability ... and do the same job for MUCH cheaper ;)

just saying =P "

BOT...I don't own any dead bird bits.

-Mark in St. Louis

Brendan Swihart
(brendans) - MLife

Locale: Fruita CO
Re: Re: Re: Re: fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 11:12:06 MST Print View

I find Arc'teryx stuff on par qualitywise with other brands depending on the item. I'm not sure what Dave U is referring to regarding Rab quility; every Rab piece I've owned is impeccable, and if I was going to go down the "pick one brand to buy backpacking clothes from" road, it'd be Rab by a lot. Cheaper, great fit and finish, simple but innovative, functional, and a very high % of there catalog that actually looks good (arcteryx has like 4 things that look good). That would be silly though, so buy individual pieces that fit your needs.

RE Phase SL, the Motus shirts are my fav for hot weather (like summer desert hot). Much more breathable than Cap 1 or other lightweight synthetics. I prefer Patagonia merino 1 most of the year. Something like Cap 1 is plenty durable (and easier to find cheap) though if you're just looking for baselayers for year round use.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Caliber Fleece on 02/21/2013 11:12:49 MST Print View

My fleece was like $68 I think? Down from 140, which is still below Patagonia's R1. Not THAT expensive. What determines the "casual" line, the name? because this fleece does all the jobs a fleece should do. Be careful you guys don't make the same useless judgements that you perceieve others do when it comes to branding and names. ;)

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Caliber Fleece on 02/21/2013 11:16:22 MST Print View

>Be careful you guys don't make the same useless judgements that you perceieve others do when it comes to branding and names.

Huh?

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Clarification on 02/21/2013 11:22:41 MST Print View

I bought a fleece from Arcteryx that wasn't in the technical line. It was in the casual line. A couple of people brought this to attention, with the implication that there's a significant difference between the two.

However, the only thing that determines whether a fleece is casual or technical is the name. At the end of the day, I have a lightweight Polartec fleece, very warm, lightweight, with no extraneous material (unless you find the arm pocket useless) and a good fit.

So, I don't see what the difference is between "casual" and "technical." If you want to get technical, it's a great fleece. So far.


The irony, to me, is that the majority of people also say that Arcteryx is just a brand and that you should ignore names and focus on the merits. I agree! Let's actually do that!

When I said I wouldn't buy Arcteryx casual gear, I was thinking about the softshell with the fuzzy-bear lining or the cotton T-shirts.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:24:50 MST Print View

"A arcteryx fleece is no way better than a patagonia fleece or mhw fleece that uses the same material, yet they demand $50 more at least."

It is better because the cut is better for athletic folks. When you raise your arms, the jacket doesn't move. Link please on the cost because Patagonia fleeces are VERY pricey.

Just a quick comment regarding Rab. The quality is so bad with their sleeping bags, two large internet vendors that I correspond with will not carry them anymore.

The two RAB jackets I have are just fine but I got them at a massive discount. No way they are worth MSRP - the quality is pretty shappy and the fit is not very good Both are very tight in the back limiting shoulder mobility and distinctly NOT an athletic cut.

Eric, the Corolla and Civic are very durable but the quality sucks - hard plastic interiors, prone to rust, second gear syncro issues (on the Civic), no power, etc. FWIW, the Honda Civic was pulled from Consumer Reports Recommended list because of reliability issues. If you want one, buy circa early 90's.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 11:29:32 MST Print View

Brendan, yes, I find the RAB quality several notches down from Arcteryx. As far as look, this obviously comes down to personal preference. I am more interested in fit and generally Rab fits those of narrow shoulders better. I can't stand snagging zippers, like those on Rab jackets. But hey, that is just me.

Bottom line - if you can afford it then go with Arcteryx. If you can't and / or want second rate, go with Rab (just kidding).

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:31:05 MST Print View

Eric, the Corolla and Civic are very durable but the quality sucks - hard plastic interiors, prone to rust, second gear syncro issues (on the Civic), no power, etc. FWIW, the Honda Civic was pulled from Consumer Reports Recommended list because of reliability issues. If you want one, buy circa early 90's.

try again david ;)

azn civic rice rocket with stickers



BEEE-MAHH 3 series

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:35:35 MST Print View

Sure, here you go:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-40543357/consumer-reports-blasts-new-honda-civic/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2011/08/01/honda-civic-the-fall-of-a-brand-icon/

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:40:48 MST Print View

Dave,
Note that I included MHW in my comparison and wasn't strictly speaking of patagonia. Even when compared against pricey Patagonia pieces, Arcteryx demands a premium.
http://www.rei.com/product/808673/arcteryx-covert-cardigan-fleece-jacket-mens
http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-r2-regulator-jacket?p=25136-0-984

Patagonia fits very well too. It and Rab also use darting, gussets, and articulated cuts to allow a garment to move with you.

"The quality is pretty shappy and the fit is not very good Both are very tight in the back limiting shoulder mobility and distinctly NOT an athletic cut."

Care to explain about the quality? Was it the stitching? the construction techniques? Fit is a very very personal thing...even the term "athletic cut." What is athletic cut for a Kenyan marathon runner vs a olympic wrestler? Lots and lots of ice climbers use Rab with no complaints of mobility issues. Should be noteworthy that a lot of European alpinist are smaller than the western counterparts. ie., Ueli Steck weighs between 140 and 150lbs depending on what he's trying to climb.

I'm a smaller guy, but I consider myself athletic...I find Rab more in line with a traditional european cut, and arcteryx more of a north american box cut. It's the same thing you see when shop for suits and comparing american designers vs european designers.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/21/2013 11:45:29 MST.