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Should I be carrying more Dead Birds?
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Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Should I be carrying more Dead Birds? on 02/20/2013 23:38:57 MST Print View

I know the brand Arcteryx by reputation, but I wanted to get some first-hand experience from the backpackers out there who commit to Arcteryx. From what I can tell, there's people who don't bother with Arcteryx, and there's people who don't bother if it's NOT Arcteryx.

So, for those of you who lay down 50% more clams for dead birds, why? How's the long-term use of your gear? Do you get more mileage per dollar spent?

If it's worth it to me, I'll be patient and save up to buy more Arcteryx stuff, since I'm a bit of a durability nut when I'm not counting ounces.


Looking forward to the discussion! Feel free to hate on the brand here, too. All opinions welcome.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
gear on 02/21/2013 01:05:28 MST Print View

look a each particular item ... and pay for that

not for the fancy name or logo ... or even the "service" which any MEC/REI/EB/OR/lands end/LL Bean will beat

i own and use some dead birds ... almost all of them i got at 50%+ off ... i would never pay full price or anywhere near for one

there isnt any thing on this gods green earth that a dead bird (or patagucci, or OR, or MH, etc ...) can do that another similar "brand" cant do just as well ...

the person is what makes the difference, not the brand

Mark Cashmere
(tinkrtoy) - M

Locale: NEOH
Re: Should I be carrying more Dead Birds? on 02/21/2013 04:37:05 MST Print View

What I find more relevant is the different brands 'fit' based on body type and personal comfort. I have tried some Arcteryx stuff, but I never liked the fit of the items and thus moved them along. MH, Montbell, GoLite tend to be the brands that fit me well. Arc, Pata, not so much. And that could just be the way I like my garments to fit and not so much if they fit, if you get my meaning. It just seems that the garments that stick around my gear list start grouping towards certain manufacturers. So far I haven't found any of brands that were particularly less durable than others (considering the materials used, of course).

Tim Drescher
(timdcy) - M

Locale: Gore Range
Re: gear on 02/21/2013 05:01:33 MST Print View

"there isnt any thing on this gods green earth that a dead bird (or patagucci, or OR, or MH, etc ...) can do that another similar "brand" cant do just as well ..."

I may be the only one, but I have hard time grouping OR in with Pata or Arc-whatever.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Arcteryx on 02/21/2013 05:59:16 MST Print View

Maybe I'm turned off by the hoards of city slickers in Vancouver wearing the brand, but I think the innovation slowed years ago. They certainly don't help the fashionista vibe with their $165 cotton t-shirts and $695 sport jacket/blazer line (Veilance). So there's still some nice items, but less and less great ones. I see them more focused on meticulously styled gear rather than functional innovation.

I see Arcteryx married to GoreTex when there's better options in the WP/B market. I see them using cheap uretek zips on jackets priced far too high not to have a quality waterproof zip (ie. RiRi Aquazip). Why does the $850 Micon jacket have a low end zipper that's going to leak in a couple years? Why are full length fail-prone zippers being added to their high end backpacks (Naos)?

So Max, you certainly don't need to pay these prices for durability. The correlation between durability and price is very loose if it exists at all.

Edited by dandydan on 02/21/2013 07:10:47 MST.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Should I be carrying more Dead Birds? on 02/21/2013 06:17:03 MST Print View

I'm a big fan of Arcteryx and own a lot of gear from them, but it seems kind of silly to consider limiting yourself to one brand like that. They're not the best at everything, to be sure. So shop around for something that truly fits your wants and needs rather than just buying Arc's version of it.

Edited by 7sport on 02/21/2013 06:17:47 MST.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
re: brands on 02/21/2013 06:40:17 MST Print View

The only thing Arc'teryx does better than Rab is pick colors.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Should I be carrying more Dead Birds? on 02/21/2013 07:04:50 MST Print View

bird

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Dead Birds on 02/21/2013 07:55:02 MST Print View

A few things appealed to my common sense already, but the reiteration was nice:

1. Get them on sale- My first Arcteryx piece, a lightweight fleece, was 40% off. It's a very nice fleece.

2. Fit- I expected the large to be too big after seeing some reviews about sizing down, but it actually fits me perfect. After struggling with a Columbia fleece with huge-ass cheap zippers, a rising bottom hem that put cold air down my back, and a cheap-o collapsed collar, this fleece feels like a Rolls Royce.

3. Separating technical garments from fashionable garments. Yup, I can do that.


Any particular Arcteryx items you've been really happy with? How is their SL baselayer?

A W
(lost_01)
arcteryx on 02/21/2013 08:19:47 MST Print View

after seeing aaron cross running around in arcteryx gear in 'The Bourne Legacy' I decided to throw away all my Patagonia gear and replace it with arcteryx.

Oddly enough everyone I see at Whole Foods did too.

josh wagner
(StainlessSteel) - F
lol on 02/21/2013 08:30:18 MST Print View

thanks for the great laugh this morning eugene...

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: re: brands on 02/21/2013 08:40:34 MST Print View

Hilarious Eugene! I love Dumb and Dumber.

The quality of Arcteryx is worlds better than Rab. The zippers are perfect, the stitching is perfect, the fit is perfect for athletic builds. I am not sure what Dave C smoking.The problem is the cost. But like Eric, I find Arcteryx at 25 to 50% off and then can justify the cost.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: gear on 02/21/2013 09:48:14 MST Print View

I may be the only one, but I have hard time grouping OR in with Pata or Arc-whatever.

youre right ... OR has superior warranty, they state specifically there are no limits and you can return it even if your dog ate it ... which has happen ... they cover anything which they made, no matter where you bought it

if you have ever been to a dead bird "factory" sale here, youll find out that they dont cover stuff that they sold

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Return Policy on 02/21/2013 10:30:48 MST Print View

Backcountry.com has a good return policy, so I'll make up for Arcteryx warranties there.

I mean, the fleece I have is pretty flawless. The zippers are awesome, too, so I can't agree with the zipper critique yet. It's almost TOO easy to zip and unzip. Very smooth.

My hardshell is a Gore-Tex Paclite shell from Patagucci, so I don't think I need to replace that anytime soon. Or, at least, I better not. I think Arcteryx's reputation hinges mostly on those hardshells, but the other items I've seen so far all seem good. I would love to know if anyone uses their SL baselayer.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 10:35:34 MST Print View

Dead bird is one of those brands that seems to me that they could not possibly deliver a product that is worth the prices they ask, even when on sale. I'm with Mark on fit--certain brands fit me better and I'll pay more for those, but there comes a point where the extra $$$ is just going towards the cool chest embroidery...arcter'x seems like one of those. As for durability, I'm still kickin' a pair of $30 LaCrosse boots I bought in a hardware store 15 years ago...there CAN be a correlation between price and durability but I wouldn't spend the money on a pricey item unless that's been proven true (i.e. McHale packs).

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 10:37:53 MST Print View

>Dead bird is one of those brands that seems to me that they could not possibly deliver a product that is worth the prices they ask, even when on sale.

+1

I'm not saying their stuff isn't good, but Lord, those prices are ridiculous!

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 10:38:01 MST Print View

Yeah, the zippers are awesome.

I wore my Atom LT today to work and looking at it with its fleece inner and strategically placed stretch panels, it really is a perfectly made garment. The hood cinches down nicely for use without a helmet and then flowers out to cup a helment when required. Reminds me of the Feathered Friends hoods on their sleeping bags.

Oh, and absolutely no issues with Arcteryx warranty. Eric has a little bit of hate on for them for some reason but they replaced my 8 year old Theta AR when I tore a hole in the back due to a decent ski wipeout into a tree. Once again, they replaced the jacket free.

OR is incredible as well, FWIW.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Durability on 02/21/2013 10:41:24 MST Print View

All I'm looking for is items I can rely on. Minimalist backpacking means everything I carry has a purpose, and if it fails, I could be up a creek. When the entire shoulder seam on my Marmot Super Mica failed at once on a winter trip, I replaced it with Patagonia's super cell jacket, which was substantially burlier.

If I buy an Arcteryx baselayer, I want it to do its job without shredding and pilling under pack straps. If I buy an Arcteryx hat, I want it to last without unraveling (and my Contrail has, so far, but it isn't exactly mind-blowing in terms of quality).

Pants are a huge one. If I step up and put down $150 for pants, they'd better make it over some granite. There's peace of mind in not having to think about my gear when I'm actually in the outdoors. Knowing that I'm guaranteed is a good feeling, like an insurance policy. I'll pay for that rather than being surprised when something cheap DOESN'T crap out.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 10:42:24 MST Print View

You can drive a Hyundai Accent or a BMW 335. Both will get you from A to B, but the latter will provide measurable increases in quality and durability. Arcteryx is similar in that you do get a much higher quality and fit and finish than competing brands. However, clothes from competing brands will do the same basic thing. Whether you want to afford it is up to you.

Now where did I put my Cuben underwear?

Edited by FamilyGuy on 02/21/2013 10:43:48 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 10:46:42 MST Print View

well i did just meet someone at the crag whose dead bird harness had the lower tie in points wear out quickly again, a common problem on that $$$$$$ harness, i blew out 3 of em in a year and a half myself ... i told him to take it back to dead bird

i blew out a dead bird pack in 2 months ... doesnt matter how fancy the logo when the sides are 100D and they recommend it for ROCK climbing

dead bird work no better or worse than any other brand in general ... you dont see people climbing or doing whatever any harder, longer or stronger in them than without them

if it fits, does what you want, costs what you want, and they take care of you ... then go buy it regardless of the name or logo

it certainly isnt the "best", nor does it have the "best" service, etc ...

outdoor gear is so good in general that brands are irrelevant

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/21/2013 10:48:46 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 10:53:58 MST Print View

You can drive a Hyundai Accent or a BMW 335. Both will get you from A to B, but the latter will provide measurable increases in quality and durability.

a good civic or corolla will beat the BEEE-MAHHH any day for reliability ... and do the same job for MUCH cheaper ;)

just saying =P

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 10:56:02 MST Print View

"outdoor gear is so good in general that brands are irrelevant"

Interesting and probably true!

I wouldn't get a pack from Arcteryx. or a cotton T-shirt, or a baseball cap. That's where you can tell they're just marketing the brand. Which is alright by me! I mean, if your brand becomes synonymous with status, you have the right to capitalize on it a little. I will stick with what I consider their "specialty," which to me is technical garments with innovative fabrics.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Arcteryx is not that bombproof. on 02/21/2013 10:59:51 MST Print View

I too left Arcteryx for Rab a long time ago...never looked back. Fot the average individual (e.g., Konrad1013 not Conrad Anker) Rab gear is durable, the cut is great, the fabric technology is superior...and the price point is better (not taking into account sale prices)

I don't agree that Arcteryx gear is bomb proof and justifies their high price. This exact problem happened to me and many many other users out there:
https://twitter.com/ETWerner/status/198055776596656129

Mind you, this was on their top of the line $600 Alpha SV jacket. Why they decided to laminate the hem and not just stitch it like every other company is beyond me. You know how there's stupid light? This is an example of stupid innovation.


Arcteryx Warranty is a pain in the ass. If you live in the US, you have to ship it to Washington, where it gets picked up by a contractor, then transported to Canada, where Arcteryx in their sole discretion will decide to replace or repair. O yeah, then there's the 6 week wait time if you're doing the warranty in their winter busy season.

OR warranty is miles ahead. This is a typical OR warranty issue:

Me: Hi, I blew out the stitching on my XYZ (this has happened to me twice)
OR: Ok no problem we are sending a replacement pair to you in the mail tomorrow. Just return your old pair when you get the chance
Me: Thanks, bye.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised people don't try to rip them off more. I always wait for my replacement pair before sending back my busted pair. I doubt they would follow up with me if I never sent back the duds.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/21/2013 11:09:09 MST.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:00:09 MST Print View

"I wouldn't get a pack from Arcteryx.....That's where you can tell they're just marketing the brand."

Interesting you say that, yet you just bought a fleece from their casual line.


As for the base layers you're asking about - if you mean the Phase line: yes the SL is a great material. Super lightweight and really pulls the sweat off of you and distributes it throughout the fabric quite well to evaporate off. I've got a phase AR hoody as well that is super nice.

Joe S
(ThreeRidges) - M
Base layers on 02/21/2013 11:05:08 MST Print View

I picked up some Phase base layers on huge discount from BC, and a fleece. Could not be happier. The base layers are super warm for their weight, and very comfortable. The fleece is bomb proof. Can't bring myself to pay full price, though.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:06:38 MST Print View

"I wouldn't get a pack from Arcteryx.....That's where you can tell they're just marketing the brand."

"Interesting you say that, yet you just bought a fleece from their casual line."

+1. Their fleeces have become their lifestyle brand. Their packs (including the Boras) are still respectable. How much technology can you put in a fleece when every major player is sourcing their material from polartec or malden mills? A arcteryx fleece is no way better than a patagonia fleece or mhw fleece that uses the same material, yet they demand $50 more at least.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/21/2013 11:07:10 MST.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:08:50 MST Print View

>yet they demand $50 more at least.

It's stitched together with hair from golden unicorns.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:09:30 MST Print View

i use their gamma and rampart pants, which are quite good

the atom LT,im less fond off ..

the fleece tops, i dont bother wearing outside, i save that for "social" occasions ... i wear my cheap MEC fleeces climbing real rock

their harnesses blow out quickly (do an internet search) but then you just keep on taking em back to MEC or wherever ...

the windshirts/vest/pants are quite breathable ...but i would never pay 150$ for a windshirt, i put pinholes in em fairly quickly

base layers i use MEC or nike or wallymart/target, which i can get on DEEP sale .. they arent any less durable

the best use of dead birds IMO ... city wear, especially in vancouver where one can look "stylish" and deal with the elements at the same time ... thats not to say that they wont do the job like any other brand where it counts, but nice styling and colours arent needed for the great outdoors

if you are someone who wants a single piece for both the occasional outdoors, and standing in like at whole foods ... and walking your dog in the rain ... then dead bird is the way to go ...

this isnt a knock on the "quality" of the gear .... because standing outside for hours in the soaking rain every day 6+ months a year is probably a better test than what many people put their outdoor gear through

the one thing that "gets" me is that they are charging $$$$$ prices for things that are made in some sweatshop overseas ... at least with something like westcomb, which has superior "quality", its made in vancouver,bc

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:10:08 MST Print View

Doh! I also forgot that the collars are lined with the fur of baby canadian seals. Nevermind, buy buy buy!!

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/21/2013 11:10:38 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Digressions. on 02/21/2013 11:10:42 MST Print View

I know my fleece is the "casual" line, but by material, fit, and weight, it's ahead of the others I looked at and it was a steal. I'm not disappointed.

If anything, I think it looks pretty sharp. I'm not saying I care about looks when I buy technical gear, because I don't, but if I get the bonus of looking professional when I'm guiding a bunch of rowdy 18-22 year olds through the White Mountains, I'll take the boost to my perceived authority and expertise.

I digress.

Delamination factors on a lot of different stuff, but if Arcteryx backs their gear I'll risk my use falling outside of the "expected." That being said, I don't intend to buy a $600 jacket from them, not remotely. In my eyes, the Patagonia one I found for $150 is already overkill. Rain jackets for my use need to be small in packability and weight, and it's really hard to break over $300 when you're skimping on features and material as much as possible for weight and bulk.

I digress.

I didn't mean to imply that Arcteryx was the end-all, be-all of outdoors gear, but I DO mean to imply that the items I've seen so far seem to be a cut above, and if others have experienced long-term reliability and good service from this company, I can justify paying out $150 for a baselayer and some more for a pair of pants.

Mark Andrews
(buldogge) - F

Locale: Midwest
Ahem... on 02/21/2013 11:11:08 MST Print View

Eric...FWIW...You've just claimed that a civic/corolla will cost less and be more reliable than a BMW motorcycle. Beemers are bikes, Bimmers are cars. :P

"a good civic or corolla will beat the BEEE-MAHHH any day for reliability ... and do the same job for MUCH cheaper ;)

just saying =P "

BOT...I don't own any dead bird bits.

-Mark in St. Louis

Brendan Swihart
(brendans) - MLife

Locale: Fruita CO
Re: Re: Re: Re: fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 11:12:06 MST Print View

I find Arc'teryx stuff on par qualitywise with other brands depending on the item. I'm not sure what Dave U is referring to regarding Rab quility; every Rab piece I've owned is impeccable, and if I was going to go down the "pick one brand to buy backpacking clothes from" road, it'd be Rab by a lot. Cheaper, great fit and finish, simple but innovative, functional, and a very high % of there catalog that actually looks good (arcteryx has like 4 things that look good). That would be silly though, so buy individual pieces that fit your needs.

RE Phase SL, the Motus shirts are my fav for hot weather (like summer desert hot). Much more breathable than Cap 1 or other lightweight synthetics. I prefer Patagonia merino 1 most of the year. Something like Cap 1 is plenty durable (and easier to find cheap) though if you're just looking for baselayers for year round use.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Caliber Fleece on 02/21/2013 11:12:49 MST Print View

My fleece was like $68 I think? Down from 140, which is still below Patagonia's R1. Not THAT expensive. What determines the "casual" line, the name? because this fleece does all the jobs a fleece should do. Be careful you guys don't make the same useless judgements that you perceieve others do when it comes to branding and names. ;)

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Caliber Fleece on 02/21/2013 11:16:22 MST Print View

>Be careful you guys don't make the same useless judgements that you perceieve others do when it comes to branding and names.

Huh?

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Clarification on 02/21/2013 11:22:41 MST Print View

I bought a fleece from Arcteryx that wasn't in the technical line. It was in the casual line. A couple of people brought this to attention, with the implication that there's a significant difference between the two.

However, the only thing that determines whether a fleece is casual or technical is the name. At the end of the day, I have a lightweight Polartec fleece, very warm, lightweight, with no extraneous material (unless you find the arm pocket useless) and a good fit.

So, I don't see what the difference is between "casual" and "technical." If you want to get technical, it's a great fleece. So far.


The irony, to me, is that the majority of people also say that Arcteryx is just a brand and that you should ignore names and focus on the merits. I agree! Let's actually do that!

When I said I wouldn't buy Arcteryx casual gear, I was thinking about the softshell with the fuzzy-bear lining or the cotton T-shirts.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:24:50 MST Print View

"A arcteryx fleece is no way better than a patagonia fleece or mhw fleece that uses the same material, yet they demand $50 more at least."

It is better because the cut is better for athletic folks. When you raise your arms, the jacket doesn't move. Link please on the cost because Patagonia fleeces are VERY pricey.

Just a quick comment regarding Rab. The quality is so bad with their sleeping bags, two large internet vendors that I correspond with will not carry them anymore.

The two RAB jackets I have are just fine but I got them at a massive discount. No way they are worth MSRP - the quality is pretty shappy and the fit is not very good Both are very tight in the back limiting shoulder mobility and distinctly NOT an athletic cut.

Eric, the Corolla and Civic are very durable but the quality sucks - hard plastic interiors, prone to rust, second gear syncro issues (on the Civic), no power, etc. FWIW, the Honda Civic was pulled from Consumer Reports Recommended list because of reliability issues. If you want one, buy circa early 90's.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: fit, function, diminishing returns on 02/21/2013 11:29:32 MST Print View

Brendan, yes, I find the RAB quality several notches down from Arcteryx. As far as look, this obviously comes down to personal preference. I am more interested in fit and generally Rab fits those of narrow shoulders better. I can't stand snagging zippers, like those on Rab jackets. But hey, that is just me.

Bottom line - if you can afford it then go with Arcteryx. If you can't and / or want second rate, go with Rab (just kidding).

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:31:05 MST Print View

Eric, the Corolla and Civic are very durable but the quality sucks - hard plastic interiors, prone to rust, second gear syncro issues (on the Civic), no power, etc. FWIW, the Honda Civic was pulled from Consumer Reports Recommended list because of reliability issues. If you want one, buy circa early 90's.

try again david ;)

azn civic rice rocket with stickers



BEEE-MAHH 3 series

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:35:35 MST Print View

Sure, here you go:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-40543357/consumer-reports-blasts-new-honda-civic/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2011/08/01/honda-civic-the-fall-of-a-brand-icon/

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:40:48 MST Print View

Dave,
Note that I included MHW in my comparison and wasn't strictly speaking of patagonia. Even when compared against pricey Patagonia pieces, Arcteryx demands a premium.
http://www.rei.com/product/808673/arcteryx-covert-cardigan-fleece-jacket-mens
http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-r2-regulator-jacket?p=25136-0-984

Patagonia fits very well too. It and Rab also use darting, gussets, and articulated cuts to allow a garment to move with you.

"The quality is pretty shappy and the fit is not very good Both are very tight in the back limiting shoulder mobility and distinctly NOT an athletic cut."

Care to explain about the quality? Was it the stitching? the construction techniques? Fit is a very very personal thing...even the term "athletic cut." What is athletic cut for a Kenyan marathon runner vs a olympic wrestler? Lots and lots of ice climbers use Rab with no complaints of mobility issues. Should be noteworthy that a lot of European alpinist are smaller than the western counterparts. ie., Ueli Steck weighs between 140 and 150lbs depending on what he's trying to climb.

I'm a smaller guy, but I consider myself athletic...I find Rab more in line with a traditional european cut, and arcteryx more of a north american box cut. It's the same thing you see when shop for suits and comparing american designers vs european designers.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/21/2013 11:45:29 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:44:29 MST Print View

the reliability graphs from consumer reports which you quoted, speak for themselves

how much "special" handling do you need unless youre street racing =P

but if you want to play that game ... a car that consumer reports DOES recommend ... and will do the same job as a BEEE-MAHHH for all LEGAL purposes ...

the hyundai elantra ... and itll cost less in gas, maintainance, and save you money to get to the great outdoors

and kill less polar bears as a result ;)

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 11:48:15 MST Print View

Yes, I had issues with stitching around both the wrist and around one of the shoulders of two different Rab jackets. The zippers snag for me as well. I also don't find the shoulder articulation as good in those jackets.

As far as fit, I consider athletic to mean wide shoulders and back, narrow waist. I agree it is a very personal thing.

And so is one's perception of quality. You may not see the quality to additional cost trade-off, but I do. Although as indicated before, I only buy Arcteryx on significant sale.

My 4c.

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
RE Arcteryx on 02/21/2013 11:50:51 MST Print View

The only Arcteryx I own (because I do have other bills to pay) is a pair of Alpha SV gloves that ran me about $250. The reason I bought them is that I prefer gloves to mittens and had been seeking the "Holy Grail" of gloves for something that would keep me warm. One of my activities is snowmobiling (a common form of back country transportation and recreation in Alaska), and these gloves successfully kept my hands warm at -20F with the windchill incurred while riding a snowmobile. So on that note I'd say they were worth it.

Other than that, I can't afford it. I have seen some pretty good deals for Arcteryx on Steep and Cheap but even at 40% off it's bloody expensive stuff.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Durability on 02/21/2013 11:57:52 MST Print View

I feel you on the durability issue Max. Most brands assume that you are going to be hiking on a well groomed trail, not bushwacking through miles of deadfall and thorns or scrambling over abrasive rocks. It's just hard to know what is going to hold up and what is going to fail.

Don Morris
(hikermor) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/21/2013 12:02:43 MST Print View

I got one of their packs (back in the early days of the brand). I used it exclusively for field work and I used it often and hard, lugging around field gear and the occasional found artifact (Damn, but those golden idols are heavy!). When I retired, I left it in the office, reluctantly. Went of a quick field trip with my successor the other day, and he was still using the pack. It showed no appreciable wear.

I have also had good experiences with Patagonia products. As type this I am wearing a Pat fleece jacket that is over thirty years old. It has saved my butt on a lot of occasions and I will never throw it out. With regard to expensive brands, look carefully at the product and the usage you contemplate. Sometimes they are worth the money and sometimes not.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Today, I learned... on 02/21/2013 12:10:04 MST Print View

that Don Morris is Indiana Jones.

I've habitually put up with cold hands. My mittens are all bargain-busting cheap-o terrible. I know my gloves are cheap since on my last three trips, I spent a good 30 minutes or so total feeling the tips of my fingers for signs of frostbite.

During the summer I'll find a deal on true mountaineering mitts and invest. Who knows- they might be Arcteryx!

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
quality kit on 02/21/2013 12:12:34 MST Print View

I have a Kappa Parka, Atom Sv parka and Lt pants which I bought discounted, the quailty and refinement is better than New Rab gear (old stuff is fine) by a big margin and its just a small bit better than OR/Patagonia.

Sean Smith
(Spookykinkajou) - F
getting bored with the bird on 02/21/2013 12:17:17 MST Print View

I've quite a bit of arcteryx gear dating back to around 2001. I've always bought it at 50% off or better mostly from steep and cheap.

The first jacket I ruined sliding down a face of ice they replaced no questions asked. Told me to just go to their site and pick the color and size and they'd send me it.

7 years later that jacket, the theta AR, finally delaminated on the bottom hem just like the link provided in this topic on the alpha SV. The same thing also happened at nearly the same time on a softshell I have.

I sent them both in last December and just yesterday got the email they are checking them out to repair and I'll receive another email in 10 to 15 business days when they might work on it.

I realize they are busy but I figure I may as well go buy something else as the product is essentially gone! So I did...

I bought a pair of alpha SL pants a few weeks ago on sale and used them twice before ripping a big hole in them on one leg. I'm not even going to bother mailing them in...just patch them up with goretex repair kit.

I still love the shells and the way they fit my skinny frame but the rest of their gear I've used has been inferior especially the softshell and fleeces...$200 retail for a cardigan fleece sweater????

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Other quality brands on 02/21/2013 12:17:58 MST Print View

Unless Arcteryx has EXACTLY what you want I'd look at other quality brands like OR, TNF (some items), LL Bean, REI (most items), Eddie Bauer First Ascent and my own fav, Cabela's.

And within these brands, of course, are the quality materials suppliers like Polartec, eVent and Gore-Tex.

If you are military or law enforcement (or know a friend who is) I think Arcteyx has discounts.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Name on 02/21/2013 12:19:55 MST Print View

I am just tired of the name Dead Bird.

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
Nothing special on 02/21/2013 12:28:50 MST Print View

Is it just me or am I the other one who doesn't think Arcteryx is nothing special. It's marketing, I went tried to walk into thier booth at OR 2012 and some worker guy stopped me and told me I needed an appointment. That put me off, do do still own a jacket of theirs, I own it because of the fit and style. It has nothing at all to do with the logo.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Phase on 02/21/2013 12:58:05 MST Print View

I was looking at the Phase AR Hoody. Might pick one up!

Tim Haynes
(timalan)

Locale: Mid Atlantic
Dead Birds vs. Westcomb on 02/21/2013 13:09:58 MST Print View

For what it's worth, I've got a couple of Arc'Teryx products: a wool baselayer and a pair of hiking/climbing shorts. I got them at 50+% off and they've worked well for the 3-4 years I've had them, but aren't noticeably superior to similar gear in the closet.

If you're willing to spend the money and are looking for outer layers, I'm partial to Westcomb -- a Canadian company that still manufactures in Canada -- it was founded in 2005 by guys who left Arc'Teryx, disappointed in where Arc'Teryx was going and created their own brand. As far as I can tell, Arc'Teryx used to be higher-quality than it is now, and maybe it once deserved a price premium. But it shifted to a lifestyle brand, which increased prices (and ad budget) and lowered quality.

I think of Westcomb as the "true" Arc'Teryx these days. And because it's not a lifestyle brand, the sales are often better when they clear out models between seasons. You can find previous-year-model Westcomb gear for 60-80% off if you are patient, and the stuff is awesome. I don't think any of it is the lightest gear out there, but the quality and durability have been impressive.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Westcomb on 02/21/2013 13:11:49 MST Print View

I've never even heard of Westcomb. Where's a good place to wait for sales?

Justin McCabe
(justinmc)

Locale: Southern California
Re: Should I be carrying more Dead Birds? on 02/21/2013 13:20:03 MST Print View

Like others have commented, different lines of the same brand will have different quality. I do think once you get up in the $300 for a technical shell (either pant of jacket), the quality better be good, and usually is.

I also think it's important to define your needs for a piece of gear. Do you stick to trails or take more adventurous off-trail excursions?

I use the Alpha SL Pullover, it's made of Paclite. In short, I love it, and it has held up well to bouts with 12-ft high thorn bushes and other various brush. It has yet to wet out under prolonged rain (though it's inevitable at some point). I paid $200-ish for it.

So while I wouldn't drop 2 bills on a simple Dead Bird baselayer, I would for a shell.

Always a trade-off on your gear list depending on your wallet. Choose wisely.

Justin McCabe
(justinmc)

Locale: Southern California
Re: Westcomb on 02/21/2013 13:29:24 MST Print View

Also,

I think Ryan just reviewed the Westcomb LT jacket near the end of January. That particular piece had mixed results.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Arc Zips on 02/21/2013 13:47:44 MST Print View

"The zippers are awesome, too, so I can't agree with the zipper critique yet. It's almost TOO easy to zip and unzip. Very smooth."
My complaint with Arcteryx zippers is that they're tossing on entry level zips on expensive coats where they should be using high performing zips. It amazes me they have the audacity to charge $850 for a coat while trying to save a few bucks off their cost with a mediocre zip.

As I mentioned I earlier, their $850 Micon jacket uses a water resistant (uretek) zipper (probably a YKK AquaGuard but RiRi, Tizip etc all make them). These zips are 'water resistant' because there is a small crack down the middle, which only grows wider with wear over time as the slider wears on the uretek coating. They're also prone to 'tenting' where the zipper develops a V shape over time which further widens this crack. Either way a pool of water quickly runs thru once the coat has seen decent use. With a lot of use, the waterproof coating can peel/flake right off. They're good for secondary zips like pockets that see a lot less use, but they're second rate for a main zip.
YKK Aquaguard

The proper zipper to use would be a quality waterproof zipper like the YKK AquaSeal or RiRi AquaZip. These zippers have teeth with rubber on the sides of the teeth, so when you do them up you get a complete seal. More importantly, they stay waterproof over time. They also have a lot less drag so they're easier to start and nicer to do up.
YKK seal


I think this zipper situation is a great microcosm of the whole Arcteryx situation. While Arc is finally putting quality zips on most of their coats (about half of them use these now), they've been dragging their feet on this for years. The Arcteryx of 10 years ago would have been the first one to incorporate something like this - realizing it's a competitive advantage to have superior technical performance. The Arcteryx of today waits until everyone else is doing it and the customer expects it before finally acting. The same attitude can be seen in many other areas from membranes to face fabrics.

"Eric, the Corolla and Civic are very durable but the quality sucks - hard plastic interiors..."
You're mixing quality with luxury. The interior of a Honda might not be made of mahogany, but functions great and lasts forever so its quality stuff. Lacking quality would be my friends 1990's Buick interior where nearly every piece broke or fell off.

Edited by dandydan on 02/21/2013 14:32:32 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Should I be carrying more Dead Birds? on 02/21/2013 13:57:40 MST Print View

"The interior of a Honda might not be made of mahogany, but functions great and lasts forever so its quality stuff." Not my experience. The hard plastics scratch and crack over time. Our 2011 Pilot dash has worn like crap, not to mention the rattles and squeeks throughout the vehicle. This is the same issue plaguing a lot of Honda models right now, not to mention Toyota. Ironically, many of these models that have issues are either made in Canada or the US. I define quality not as luxury but as texture, fit and finish, and quality of material used. All of which should last over the long term.

For shits and giggles, go sit in a new Civic and then the new Buick (any model) and then report back.

Mike R
(redpoint) - F

Locale: British Columbia
depends what you want ... on 02/21/2013 14:11:04 MST Print View

Arc'teryx is very innovative and their products are well made, beautifully designed, and contain top-shelf materials. I live 10 minutes from their HQ and check-out their discounted gear frequently. Generally, I purchase either Arc'teryx or Patagonia. From my experiences, Arc'teryx makes the best Gore-Tex shell on the planet - I've tried a bunch of different brands. I also like their AC2 waterproof packs. They're heavy, but where I live waterproofness and extreme durability are paramount. Patagonia makes better base layers.

The good:

Great, innovative design and excellent materials. Fit is generally athletic and the cut is usually unsurpassed in the industry, feels like a tailored piece. Warranty is pretty good, though not as easy as Patagonia. Performance is excellent.

The bad:

While innovative, sometimes I think their gear is over designed and is therefore lacking or over-engineered. It's also bleeding-edge tech - sometimes. For example, I have a dually belay parka, which is a $550 [+ 12% tax here in Canada] jacket. It's a great piece, but the hood doesn't have any volume controls. So, it's fine with a helmet on, but when you're sitting around camp, you look like the grim reaper and it interferes with your headlamp and visibility. None of their soft shells and non-goretex insulated jackets have this control. Even Patagonia's minimalist Houdini jacket has a hood volume control. This is something I would expect in a $600+ jacket. I've owned two AC2 packs and while I love them, both have suffered from failures/breakage with the laminated parts. I just had a softshell replaced b/c all the laminated seams started to blow-out. Of course the prices are ridiculous. $300 for a pair of gloves! Seriously? They're nice gloves, but the next best thing in the marketplace is much warmer and 1/2 the price. A big chunk of Arc'teryx gear is made in China now and the prices don't reflect this. The more complicated items are made in Canada, but I'm sure this is changing.

So, in a nutshell, I wouldn't buy Arc'teryx b/c it's Arc'teryx. I'd only buy it if it's going to meet your needs better. I never pay MSRP for their stuff, I only buy at the factory sales.

Edited by redpoint on 02/21/2013 14:13:35 MST.

Dan D
(TXBDan)

Locale: Boston, MA
my 2c on 02/21/2013 14:17:46 MST Print View

My only piece of Arcteryx kit is a Theta AR goretex shell. Its 3 years old and made in China. I was bummed to see it wasn't Canadian made (apparently its luck of the draw) but its what they had at REI where i got it on sale.

Despite being made in China, the quality is there. Every stitch, every cut, is dead straight and looks perfect. Its really pretty impressive to look over in detail. Its in another league of detail quality compared to my RAB Latok bib shells. Is there a functional difference due to manufacturing? I doubt it.

I bought it for the fit. Just the right torso shape, just the right arm and torso length. The hood is also stellar and i love having it separate from the collar. Helmet or no helmet, the hood is perfect and never in the way.

I use it for snowboarding, fall/spring/summer raincoat, and for hiking, backpacking, "mountaineering", etc. As a snowboarder, I'm on my ass and crashing a lot. Being on the ice coasts, sliding down icey mountains on my back is nothing new. It's held up perfectly, literally looks like new. It's heavy for an everyday raincoat, but i'm always comfortable in it around town, etc.

My only flaw with it is that while wearing a backpack, my hip belt must have been rubbing on the waist cinch cord inside the coat. I noticed that on the high spot created by the cord inside and the outter nylon is wearing. Just this one tiny spot on one side. Its fine now, but if it gets worse i'll try to have Arcteryx repair/replace it with REI as my backup plan.

Edited by TXBDan on 02/21/2013 14:24:17 MST.

Richard Lyon
(richardglyon) - MLife

Locale: Bridger Mountains
Westcomb on 02/21/2013 14:24:10 MST Print View

Max - Occasionally for sale at departmentofgoods.com [backcountry.com's outlet} and as someone noted sometimes deeply discounted at smaller online shops. Google "westcomb" and some of the screen scrapers like Nextag will spot the bargains.

I really like Westcomb products. I have a couple of jackets, a pair of hiking pants, and a heavyweight fleece hoody that's terrific. This company tends to make stuff with an athletic fit, which to me indicates a focus on technical use rather than appearance. I've reviewed one of the jackets and the pants at BackpackGearTest.org if you are interested in details.

Richard

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Westcomb on 02/21/2013 14:39:26 MST Print View

Westcomb is good stuff. Same athletic fit as Arcteryx, more innovative, made in Canada and less expensive. Plus they use both NeoShell and eVent membranes. Their 9oz Focus LT rain jacket probably has the best cut for tall slim guys of any UL rain jkt currently available.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
That's me! on 02/21/2013 14:59:14 MST Print View

Hey, I'm a tall slim guy! I'll check them out, thanks for the info!

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Westcomb on 02/21/2013 15:00:02 MST Print View

Agreed, Westcomb is a very very good alternative to Arcteryx. My GF has a westcomb event shell...I can't tell the difference between it and any arcteryx piece i've owned in the past. Quality stuff. LIke Dan mentioned, Arcteryx is dragged down by the Giant Goretex Ball and Chain...really stifles their products, but of course there are a lot of politics and commercial reasons behind obeying the Gore juggernaut.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/23/2013 23:52:18 MST Print View

"the reliability graphs from consumer reports which you quoted, speak for themselves"

Yes, they do. The current 328 is as reliable as the current civic. But offers much better handling, acceleration, braking, safety features, looks, luxury, fit and finish, paint quality, etc.

What's your point.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Re: Durability on 02/24/2013 01:01:33 MST Print View

I'm sorry, but you really should have done you homework on the Super Mica (and your other gear) before heading out to the bush for winter backpacking.... poor form.

Everything I've owned from Arcteryx has been incredibly durable... for the most part... Atom LT/SV, Alpha LT/SV, Theta SV.... but then again, I am not paying anywhere near full price (or even 50% off) of this, if at all.

Dead Bird is used by my colleagues in Spec Ops In Afghanistan- if it holds up for them, it's going to hold up to your endeavors with your college outdoor club.

But as with all gear, the same rule applies: the more durable, the less light. And vice versus. The key is finding the balance you need....

I ski 100+ days in the shell that I backpack in. Is it heavy, (18ozs)? For many of you, yes. But I charged through trees, scraped it against granite (and even barbed wire) and it still looks brand new....

Hope this helps...

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 02:20:56 MST Print View

Yes, they do. The current 328 is as reliable as the current civic. But offers much better handling, acceleration, braking, safety features, looks, luxury, fit and finish, paint quality, etc.

What's your point.


the point is that the 3 series will costs substantially more initially, more in maintenance, more in gas ... and not do a darn thing legally better than any civic, corolla, elantra, etc ...

as millions of the aforementioned car owners who use em just fine can attest to every day

basically youre paying to "look" and "feel" good ... and "luxury" ;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/24/2013 02:27:17 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Durability on 02/24/2013 07:23:19 MST Print View

"I'm sorry, but you really should have done you homework on the Super Mica (and your other gear) before heading out to the bush for winter backpacking.... poor form."

I bought it before reviews existed, so I could test it. High risk, potentially high reward. I like to live dangerously and wasn't complaining. I returned the jacket and got a nicer one in it's stead for no cost to me.

Babak, if this is because I called you out in the Patagonia thread, grow up. I'm not humoring you if you want to start a BPL rivalry. Go hang out with your "contacts" in TNF and your "colleagues" in special ops, you don't have the time for the likes of me.

Edited by mdilthey on 02/24/2013 07:24:33 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 07:29:25 MST Print View

No Eric. You are paying for far more performance, better ride, much higher fit and finish and tactile feel. Better steering, handling, acceleration, and even better gas mileage than some Civics. Now add the look, both inside and out, the quality of the paint, the interior plastics, the small panel gaps, and the incredible technology and we can see where the extra money went. Turbos that produce lots of power but have mileage better than the Si version of the Civic. Direct injection on the BMW, airbags in places the Civic didn't know was possible...I could on and on.

I loved Top Gear's comparison of the Toyota Prius and the BMW M3, the latter of which has a V8. Around their track and driven flat out, the Prius achieved under 20 mpg. The BMW driven less than flat out but at the same speed as the Prius achieved better fuel economy. The point being that it is how you drive rather than what you drive. Lets see. Better potential gas mileage and yet 444 hp when you want to have some fun. Neat. Fuel economy is not the only marker of performance. Not even close,

Did I mention the free maintenance on new BMW's?

This is what you get with Arcteryx. Better everything for the price. No question. Whether or not you can or want to afford it is up to you. But I find it incredible disingenuous when the posters on this thread try to discount the product simply because of my previous statement. These are the same people that won't buy silnylon and rush to cuben at 3 times the price. I won't buy cuben but I don't ignore the performance benefits of the product.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Off topic, but who cares? on 02/24/2013 07:31:30 MST Print View

My family has owned Volkswagens for 15 years, relentlessly. A good allegory for the german-made BMW. The occasional covered maintenance is worth it for the absolutely amazing drive of every vehicle we've bought, except the Routan. That one sucks.

This is so off-topic, but I'm not upset about it. Haha!

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Off topic, but who cares? on 02/24/2013 07:32:38 MST Print View

As long as the OP is okay with the thread drift....; )

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 09:28:52 MST Print View

This is what you get with Arcteryx. Better everything for the price. No question. Whether or not you can or want to afford it is up to you. But I find it incredible disingenuous when the posters on this thread try to discount the product simply because of my previous statement. These are the same people that won't buy silnylon and rush to cuben at 3 times the price. I won't buy cuben but I don't ignore the performance benefits of the product.

oh david

TELL ME ... what are you doing "better" LEGALLY with your BEE-MAH ... the transcanada only goes so fast .. and you definitely dont need one to max out the limits ... nor ANY highway in canada ... you arent street racing are you ????

tell me EXACTLY what you did with your "better performance" in your dead bird ... will you go any faster, higher, harder with it????

what PERFORMANCE benefit does a dead bird have over some other piece like OR or EB?????? ... name me ONE thing that has been done in a dead bird that cant be done with anything else ...

i cordially invite you to squamish, well do the grand wall together ... i wont wear any dead birds, you wear all the ones you want ... well split the leads ... you should be much stronger than me with the fancy logos ;)


as for BEEMAHS vs priuses ... heres the comparison that matters for LEGAL driving in real life

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Re: Re: Re: Durability on 02/24/2013 10:08:18 MST Print View

Sorry, the way you framed it was that you in a dangerous spot due to your gear failing...... Glad you made it back safe.

(I also purchased a Super Mica prior to the reviews coming out...... and I was disappointed with the durability.... I've neve backpacked in the NE- but I found it not too flimsy for any thing with a pack weighing more than 10lbs)

Cheers

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 10:38:39 MST Print View

Sorry Eric, you will need to read my post again. You rely on stats and links without considering real world tests and specifications. You are using EPA standards and ignoring real world driving habits or more importantly, real tests. Did you look up what i posted? Didn't think so. You are lacking the aptitude to either read properly, comprehensive what you are reading or are reading every third word. Now you are going to talk to me about traffic laws? Make the incorrect assumption that I am racing on the streets?

Do you know anything about efficiency? If a large motor works less hard to produce the same amount of power and torque, it is more efficient and will use less fuel to run. It will also last longer. Prius batteries have had limited long term durability. I will ignore the fires.

You are using EPA standards and ignoring how someone actually drives. I surmise you generally take the bus.

Not to mention cherry picking. Of course the Prius gets better gas mileage if you drive easy but that is hard with greater levels of traffic or have you forgotten where you live? That also wasn't my point. I was showing that power and decent mileage are a possible marriage. I didn't even bring up diesel motors.

Ah, what the hell. The BMW 320 diesel can get....67 mpg ( still out performs any Civic while holding onto all of the other aforementioned benefits). Oh and this beats the Prius as well based on manufacturer stats. Regardless, one won't get close to these figures in either car but since you continue to post manufacture stats, I will oblige.

How are Arcteryx products better than the competition? Once again, you could re-read my posts but I suspect that this will take some effort on your part so I will summarize: higher manufacturing quality, tighter seam tolerances with less tape, better zippers, better designed hoods, athletic fit, higher levels of durability, much better ride, braking, handling, safety options, ability to avoid obstacles, excellent warranty, very high re-sale value, and the list goes on.

Oh, and I don't own a BMW. A Honda and an Acura. There goes your third assumption.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 02/24/2013 10:39:27 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 10:43:07 MST Print View

"outdoor gear is so good in general that brands are irrelevant"

Not to you they aren't. You take ever opportunity to slam 'Dead Bird' and "PataGucci" and even Mchale any chance you get.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 10:54:41 MST Print View

again david ... what are you doing that needs a dead bird ???? ... how much harder, faster, longer are you going in it?

u will noticed in my posts on this thread that i said look at the particular piece ... not the brand name ...

lets go through it again ...

"performance" - more crazy things have been done without dead birds than with ... the best climbers, alpinists, or even "hikers" use all different sorts of gear ...

"durability" - well that depends on the piece ... the harnesses are know for wearing out quickly ... the "UL" packs dont last any longer because of the logo ... konrad posted the link about issues with even their flagship rain jacket

"service" - walk into any MEC, REI, EB, lands end, OR, LL Bean ... and you get better "service" ... if you want to test this theory i will feed one of my OR jackets to a cute cuddly household pet, you do the same with your dead bird ... well tell them the unvarnished truth ... lets see what happens


and even Mchale any chance you get.

and where did i slam mchale??? ... or are ya confused ;)

as for BEE-MAAHS ... youre paying 20k+ canadian over a perfectly normal, reliable, functional care that costs less to run ... doesnt do anything better LEGALLY on the road .. and killing more polar bears as a result

whether a person gets one is their choice ... but its not going to make em any better except for climbing the social ladder ... and with the record amount of debt canadians are in, people probably shouldnt be going into debt buying em ...

and here REAL WORLD gas milleage on the bmw 320d by real owners



http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1105315&d=11724.17124&nmt=

the EPA site has REAL WORLD reported gas mileage by owners as well ... as do many other sites ... go check em if you dare

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/24/2013 11:05:49 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:11:59 MST Print View

--"what are you doing that needs a dead bird ???? ... how much harder, faster, longer are you going in it?"

This is a terrible argument. Getting a piece of gear that is built well doesn't mean you HAVE to push it up to specs.

--""performance" - more crazy things have been done without dead birds than with ... the best climbers, alpinists, or even "hikers" use all different sorts of gear ..."

This is even worse! Seriously? Because someone brings a North Face jacket to the top of Everest, another unrelated company isn't worth it? I asked for reasonable advice. You're just being wholly irrelevant!

--""service" - walk into any MEC, REI, EB, lands end, OR, LL Bean ... and you get better "service" ... if you want to test this theory i will feed one of my OR jackets to a cute cuddly household pet, you do the same with your dead bird ... well tell them the unvarnished truth ... lets see what happens"

I don't really care what service offers better replacements for something completely irrelevant to the use of my gear. My dog eats dog food.


Finally,

--"as for BEE-MAAHS ... youre paying 20k+ canadian over a perfectly normal, reliable, functional care that costs less to run ... doesnt do anything better LEGALLY on the road .. and killing more polar bears as a result"

Passing a Semi on the highway quickly reminds you why you paid for your horsepower. having the ability to quickly accelerate is real-world useful, fun, legal, and incredibly fulfilling for the price paid. Amenities within the car like trim and styling aren't worth it to you but they're VERY worth it to THOUSANDS, if not millions of drivers. You can't just claim that someone is wrong for wanting nice things- a great majority of people like nice things and some earn them.

If you are just going to keep repeating the "Both get you from A to B" argument while ignoring the abstract benefits of horsepower and aesthetics, you're just going to be ignored by everyone. The internet gives the illusion of people caring by the response, but if you had this conversation in real life you'd be mired in awkward silence and abandonment.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
BMW & Arcteryx on 02/24/2013 11:12:21 MST Print View

Trying to justify BMW or Arcteryx to Eric is seemingly equivalent to trying to justify hiking to my non hiking friends. They just don't get it. Never will. So I don't bother. And we all live happily ever after.

I drive an M5 and a Hyundai. I won't try to justify the extra cost and poorer gas mileage of the M5 to a non-car-enthusiast, because they'll never understand. Giving them a ride in it sometimes goes a long way towards making them understand though. And it doesn't require breaking any laws to feel the difference between the two cars. In fact driving both back to back actually makes the BMW feel that much more worthy.


Oh and to keep this relevant to Arcteryx and their service: They just replaced a wind vest I use for running. My dog had eaten the zipper pull off of it. He really likes the taste of expensive outdoor clothing and tv remotes. I think I had to pay for shipping to WA, but can't remember for sure. No other costs or questions. And I didn't buy it from them either.

Edited by 7sport on 02/24/2013 11:17:58 MST.

Dan D
(TXBDan)

Locale: Boston, MA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:13:06 MST Print View

The qualitative difference between a Civic and a BMW is far greater than an Arcteryx or REI brand shell. Poor analogy.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: BMW & Arcteryx on 02/24/2013 11:16:21 MST Print View

so its a "feel good" thing?

that explains it all ;)

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: BMW & Arcteryx on 02/24/2013 11:21:43 MST Print View

It's a feel good thing backed by actual data and specifications. To ignore the "feel good" part shows your inexperience as a vehicle owner and a driver. Driving can be an intimate and highly fulfilling experience, in every sense of the word. it's a key part of reviewing a vehicle. The overwhelming majority of magazines without expressed neutrality (Consumer Reports being the only one I can think of) enumerate on the "feel good" stuff as a primary focus. It's what MATTERS.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:23:29 MST Print View

Getting a piece of gear that is built well doesn't mean you HAVE to push it up to specs.


so if you arent using it for that "extra performance" ... WHAT are you using it for ... strutting around ???

This is even worse! Seriously? Because someone brings a North Face jacket to the top of Everest, another unrelated company isn't worth it? I asked for reasonable advice. You're just being wholly irrelevant!

oh come on ... you came on here trying to "justify" your purchase ... what makes dead bird "BETTER" ????

its not like people climb, hike, ski any harder in em than without em ...

use what you like ... but its the PERSON that matters, not the brand

I don't really care what service offers better replacements for something completely irrelevant to the use of my gear. My dog eats dog food.


so the service aint important to you? ... well sorry to say it is important to quite a few people ... and dead bird does not have "service" any better than the aformentioned brands/retailers

Passing a Semi on the highway quickly reminds you why you paid for your horsepower. having the ability to quickly accelerate is real-world useful, fun, legal, and incredibly fulfilling for the price paid. Amenities within the car like trim and styling aren't worth it to you but they're VERY worth it to THOUSANDS, if not millions of drivers. You can't just claim that someone is wrong for wanting nice things- a great majority of people like nice things and some earn them.

weird ... even whe i had a gutless tercel ... i never had any issues passing slow semis on the highway ... if you did i suggest a remedial driving lesson ;)

people drive what they want and wear what they want ... thats up to them

however then there are those who claim this or that piece is "better" ... when you really dont do anything much "better" with it =P

t's a feel good thing backed by actual data and specifications. To ignore the "feel good" part shows your inexperience as a vehicle owner and a driver. Driving can be an intimate and highly fulfilling experience, in every sense of the word. it's a key part of reviewing a vehicle. The overwhelming majority of magazines without expressed neutrality (Consumer Reports being the only one I can think of) enumerate on the "feel good" stuff as a primary focus. It's what MATTERS.

no its WHAT YOU DO WITH IT that matters ... you can "feel good" in your BEEE-MAH or your dead bird all day long driving in the city, or walking around in town ...

but what are you really spending that $$$$$ to ACTUALLY DO?

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/24/2013 11:25:41 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:29:27 MST Print View

"The qualitative difference between a Civic and a BMW is far greater than an Arcteryx or REI brand shell. Poor analogy."

Not on a scale basis. Regardless, the idea was to show that there are some that are willing to pay for quality and performance and thus a BMW over a Civic or an Arcteryx shell over say, an REI shell.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:30:32 MST Print View

--"so if you arent using it for that "extra performance" ... WHAT are you using it for ... strutting around ???"

Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece. It will last longer and you don't have to wonder if you're going to be stuck somewhere with a ripped jacket if you have some faith in the seams. It provides peace of mind, and confidence in your gear.

--"oh come on ... you came on here trying to "justify" your purchase ... what makes dead bird "BETTER" ????

its not like people climb, hike, ski any harder in em than without em ...

use what you like ... but its the PERSON that matters, not the brand"

I find it funny that you think this is the argument. Nobody said it WASN'T the person. You are the only one who confused us touting Arcteryx as superior to mean we believe the person is inferior. You said that, not us.

Of course the person is more important, and of course we'll manage to do what we are gonna do regardless of what we bring. if we increase our safety (through warmth and dryness) and we increase our comfort (through breathability) by using superior gear, we increase the overall happiness of our trip AND our likelihood of completing challenges. You can write entire books on morale alone.

--"so the service aint important to you? ... well sorry to say it is important to quite a few people ... and dead bird does not have "service" any better than the aformentioned brands/retailers"

You misunderstand me. I don't care what Arcteryx's policy is for intentionally destroying my own gear. I care about their service for craftsmanship and expected life, and their policy looks fine to me for that. If OR wants to include wasteful destruction, you can feed your pets all the clothing you want. Get the vet on speed-dial.

--"weird ... even whe i had a gutless tercel ... i never had any issues passing slow semis on the highway ... if you did i suggest a remedial driving lesson ;)"

I suggest you stop using the word "slow," since I didn't say "slow." The implication is that there are highway scenarios that a BMW will handle safer than a base-level vehicle. You can't even dispute that... it's fact. It doesn't matter if you haven't experienced it. Judging by this conversation, I'd attribute that to you living far from other human beings...

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: BMW & Arcteryx on 02/24/2013 11:30:42 MST Print View

"I drive an M5 and a Hyundai"

I like this combination!

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:36:46 MST Print View

Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece. It will last longer and you don't have to wonder if you're going to be stuck somewhere with a ripped jacket if you have some faith in the seams. It provides peace of mind, and confidence in your gear.


you bought a FLEECE jacket, not a rocket ... i OWN dead bird fleece jackets .. and ill tell you right now that its not any more durable than any other MEC piece ... my T3 has been through quite a bit after 2+ years and im not talking about the washing machine ;)

I find it funny that you think this is the argument. Nobody said it WASN'T the person. You are the only one who confused us touting Arcteryx as superior to mean we believe the person is inferior. You said that, not us.

Of course the person is more important, and of course we'll manage to do what we are gonna do regardless of what we bring. if we increase our safety (through warmth and dryness) and we increase our comfort (through breathability) by using superior gear, we increase the overall happiness of our trip AND our likelihood of completing challenges. You can write entire books on morale alone.


ahhh ... but dead birds arent "superior" gear, they are the same as any other decent brand ... if they were every damn person would be using them on the craziest things ... they arent in general

its not like someone is dying because they didnt wear it ;)

I suggest you stop using the word "slow," since I didn't say "slow." The implication is that there are highway scenarios that a BMW will handle safer than a base-level vehicle. You can't even dispute that... it's fact. It doesn't matter if you haven't experienced it. Judging by this conversation, I'd attribute that to you living far from other human beings...


ive never had a problem passing semis in my gutless tercel ... PERIOD ... short of some semi trailer chasing after you in terminator 3 ;)

again i suggest a remedial driving course =P

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/24/2013 11:38:46 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:39:10 MST Print View

I think the bottom line is that Eric climbs (although I can't in any way corroborate this) and does not backpack. For those that climb, they are more likely to destroy any piece of clothing against granite over a shorter period of time than a backpacker, skier, or trail runner. Maybe his expectations are so high, that a jacket should be impervious to climbing 'wear and tear.' I don't know if that is reasonable or not. I do know, however, how the additional quality applies to my backpacking, skiing, and scrambling activities based on many years of using inferior products that in the real world, did not meet my expectations in fit, durability, finish, and overall performance. The ability to depend on gear that will not. fail in the backcountry is paramount to me and I suspect, many others.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:40:19 MST Print View

"Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece."

I know you get out a lot, but unless you've bought and tested an Arcterx shell* since the thread started, I don't think you can personally attest to this. Unless by bargain brand, you mean "Target special" and not the respected mid-level brands that most people here use with great success. :)

*ETA: since the argument seems to now be about their shells and not the fleece you already own.

Edited by spelt on 02/24/2013 11:42:10 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:42:59 MST Print View

" never had a problem passing semis in my gutless tercel ... PERIOD ... short of some semi trailer chasing after you in terminator 3 ;)"

Come to Alberta and you may change you mind. Tercels get gobbled up. Although I have found some of the fastest drivers in Canada located in Vancouver.

Spelt, do you own a good Arcteryx shell?

Edited by FamilyGuy on 02/24/2013 11:44:40 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:44:36 MST Print View

i definitely climb more than anything else these days ...

the bottom line is that plenty of people use all types of brands ... and dont do anything less because they arent using a certain brand (cheap or expensive)

look at the particular PIECE ... and how you are going to use it ...

the majority of people here get along just fine using whatever brand they use .. and arent any "less" safe because of it

us what you want ... its what you DO with it that matters

;)

oh ... and david ... ive lived in alberta before and i take a climbing trip to the rockies there every year

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/24/2013 11:45:52 MST.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:50:08 MST Print View

Dave, no, I don't. I don't see how that's relevant when it was Max making the claim that I suggested he can't support with his experience. I made no claims of either superior-or inferiority, only (1) called him out on his definitive claim that I'm betting he can't back up, and (2) pointed out that most people here don't have Arcterx shells and still do just fine.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Return Policy on 02/24/2013 11:58:29 MST Print View

"I know you get out a lot, but unless you've bought and tested an Arcterx shell* since the thread started, I don't think you can personally attest to this. Unless by bargain brand, you mean "Target special" and not the respected mid-level brands that most people here use with great success. :)"

You're right, I was speaking from an intended use perspective, i.e, the reason I would drop the clams.

I'm on my third Arcteryx piece, but the Fleece was the first "major" one and judging by some of the first-hand responses here, not the last.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Arc on 02/24/2013 12:15:13 MST Print View

"Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece"

You're giving Arcteryx too much credit with this whole durability/abrasion/lasts forever praise. Goretex sells the same nylon + membrane sandwiches to Arcteryx as they do to a hundred other companies. Arc just sews, bonds and seam tapes these pre-made fabrics into a jacket.

As long as they don't mess up the construction, the jacket is simply as durable as the fabrics selected and as waterproof as the Goretex membrane provided. There's no fairy dust here - a given fabric isn't more abrasion resistant if Arcteryx uses it rather than Outdoor Research, nor does Goretex Pro Shell become more waterproof if it comes thru Arcteryx's Chinese factory rather than Mountain Hardware's.

Arcteryx does a nice job with their sewing, but tons of other companies sew solid jackets as well. Aside from instances of poor construction (which all companies have occasionally), the materials determine the jackets performance far more than the brand. You could argue Arc has fewer instances of poor construction, but there's really no way we can assess that based on a few anecdotal stories. The reality is that many brands are making excellently sewn products using materials provided from Gore-Tex and others.

[I assume by 'bargain brand' you're referring to the decent value oriented brands out there and not some poorly sewn Wal-Mart piece with unacceptable materials.]

Edited by dandydan on 02/24/2013 12:16:38 MST.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
normal wear and tear on 02/24/2013 12:16:23 MST Print View

"Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece."

I hate the be the bearer of bad news, but my alpha SV delaminated at the hem while in the washing machine. This was the 2nd time I ever washed it. Front load washer, gentle cycle, atsko sport wash. I do this with all my technical shells. My 6oz marmot essence ($70 on sale, and a bargain in my book) has been washed 5+ times and has no signs of delamination. My eVent Rab has no signs of delamination either. Delamination on arcteryx jackets is notorious if you search online. This is very very different then delamination of the wp/b layer from the face fabric, which occurs universally and naturally after extended use and uv exposure.

I am NOT hard on my gear. This to me is unacceptable, especially at the price arcteryx charges. I'm sorry, I just don't think you have the experience to attest to this statement you've made.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/24/2013 12:17:15 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Durability on 02/24/2013 12:23:57 MST Print View

The only times I've had gear fail on the trail was from seams, so I count good seams very highly when I consider new gear. Besides, Arcteryx is definitely using good face fabrics, even if their membrane is the same as another Gore-Tex piece.

This is definitely marketing, so take it with a grain of salt, but here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPBnc7L3-8w

The newer shells use N80p-X fabric, which is good stuff. I don't know of any other companies that use such a high quality Gore laminate. After doing some research, I would classify my opinions in the following way:


Arcteryx definitely sells their brand. They sell a concept, and a style, and they jack up prices to match. They are not the end-all, be-all of outdoors gear. They are only marginally better than everyone else, and equal to or worse than some.

However, many individual Arcteryx pieces appear to be, and are reviewed as, substantially well made garments with great durability records and a performance record over time that usually surpasses their intended use or lifetime and is consistent with a good backpacking investment.

And now THAT being said, I think if I were to have unlimited $$$ for gear right this minute, I would NOT buy an Arcteryx shell since the delamination is such an issue. I believe delamination is inevitable in ANY rain shell, so you might as well spend $150 and not $650.

I would, however, buy a technical softshell jacket, something for serious winter use.

Edited by mdilthey on 02/24/2013 12:25:28 MST.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Tercels on 02/24/2013 12:24:30 MST Print View

"Come to Alberta and you may change you mind. Tercels get gobbled up."

In 2009 I drove across Alberta on a scooter at 70km/hr on Hwy 1. Actually I did it twice because I was riding from Vancouver to southern Ontario and back. Alberta and Sask were easily the least stressful part of the trip. The notion of getting gobbled up in a Tercel is comical. It's not even scary on a scooter. The scariest part of the trip was the moose in Northern Ontario.

Scooter Hwy1

Edited by dandydan on 02/24/2013 13:21:21 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 12:34:54 MST Print View

I thought I'd played my fair share of "Dodge the Wildlife" when I lived in NY until I made the drive from Banff to Washington starting at 4am (big mistake.) I lost count of all the elk and deer I encountered on the road and suffered several emotionally significant experiences. Never seen that many on or near the road before or since.

That sounds like a wonderful road trip though and I've never had that problem in Alberta or BC during daylight.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 12:35:45 MST Print View

The only thing comical is that you ride a scooter on the highway. I am in tears. LOL.


Try driving downtown Calgary instead of through the mountains. Maybe in the Winter. Or through the industrial park SE or maybe the north highway put of Edmonton to GP, etc. You cherry picker, you.

By the way, it looks like you had a pace vehicle following you. Looks to me that you would have less of an issue with a CAR FOLLOWING YOU keeping a distance between you and rogue truck drivers. Funny stuff.

Seriously, your post has made my day.

Now go find out the elusive Mchale cuben fabric and report back.

Edited for spelling because I was laughing too hard.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 02/24/2013 12:46:00 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
This thread is rapidly degenerating. on 02/24/2013 12:51:17 MST Print View

Everyone's gettin' real testy! Myself included...

Edited by mdilthey on 02/24/2013 13:01:31 MST.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
testyness on 02/24/2013 12:56:53 MST Print View

Max,

I've learned not to take any of this personally. On BPL, you'll notice that general smug/jackass-ness comes in cycles...it's winter and people become grouchy (myself included). Come around spring, and everyone will be shi*tting rainbows again :)

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Haha, yup! on 02/24/2013 13:02:08 MST Print View

Konrad,

I'm the worst offender.

-Max

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 13:04:40 MST Print View

All this car talk on BPL is awesome, I've been a car nut for years. I can't think of a single time when a semi blew a car off the road just from normal driving situations. Tercel, Civic, Bee-mah or otherwise. They CAN blow some travel trailers off the road if they're not set up properly or the tow vehicle is not capable enough. In fact, a small Tercel will have a better chance of staying on the road due to its small cross section.


Ryan

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 13:10:01 MST Print View

Ha ha, Ryan. The blow away comment was whether you could pass a semi not a semi literally blowing a car off the road.

Maybe if it was made of Cuben, perhaps.

God, this is the second funniest post I have seen in a while.

Stop it, you experts are killing me.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Alberta's deadly roads on 02/24/2013 13:14:33 MST Print View

That 'pace car' would be the other scooter I was with. I was on a 125cc that could have done 95km/hr but he was on a 50cc so we had to go his speed. And I agree this is funny - life's too short to get all serious.

I've driven all over Calgary, scootered up to Edmonton and been all over that area. I got family in Sherwood park. There's idiots everywhere but safety has a lot more to do with how you're driving that what you drive. I've probably put 100,000 kms on various scooters over the past 9 years.

I'm still riding in Thunder Bay, ON this winter. The cold is more of challenge than dangers on the road. Last week at -28 C (-18 F):
Ruckus

Edited by dandydan on 02/24/2013 13:19:37 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Semi Blow on 02/24/2013 13:15:49 MST Print View

I got literally blown off the road by a jackass with a camper trailer in Maine. I was on a bicycle. Approximately 400 (no exaggeration) tractor trailers passed us on the same highway without speeding or edging us close enough to do the same.

Screw amateurs.


Dan, you and I are kindred spirits. I bike everywhere, all winter. Pay attention, keep your weight centered on turns, and bundle up your hands and face and it might as well be summer! Two wheels and no limits.

Edited by mdilthey on 02/24/2013 13:17:08 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Alberta's deadly roads on 02/24/2013 13:22:58 MST Print View

Dan - studs, I presume. The ultimate fat tired bike!

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Studs on 02/24/2013 13:29:07 MST Print View

Stud's would be nice for those icy days, but I've just got knobbies on there. They're good in the snow/slush but sketchy on ice.
http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tire+duro+offroad+hf910_dur1002

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
back on subject on 02/24/2013 13:31:49 MST Print View

So who wants (correction: NEEDS) to buy my Arcteryx Beta FL shell in the FS forum.

sorry, figured i could slip this in given that this thread has been all over the place already.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Studs on 02/24/2013 13:38:41 MST Print View

No problem passing semis with this scooter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQN0rzTz7P4

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Alberta's deadly roads on 02/24/2013 13:49:00 MST Print View

Dan, what kind of scooter is that?

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Scooter on 02/24/2013 13:59:30 MST Print View

Honda Ruckus

My how far we've drifted.....

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Scooter on 02/24/2013 14:01:29 MST Print View

Still jealous Dan.

I can see it now. My Honda Element as the Mothership, the matching Ruckus rolling out of the back on a ramp...

One of these days.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 14:19:41 MST Print View

Haha.

@David - I bought a new camper a few months ago so I've been reading a lot of the camper forums lately. 90% of the talk on those forums are sway, being passed by semi's, etc. so I've kinda got it in the brain right now. Semi's pushing travel trailers off the road can happen pretty easily evidently. You should see some of the carnage when those things flip over.

Either way, all the cars mentioned in this thread are far too underpowered anyway. Regardless, of quality, etc.

Ryan

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 14:21:01 MST Print View

"Either way, all the cars mentioned in this thread are far too underpowered anyway. Regardless, of quality, etc."

Now THIS is what I wanted to hear!

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 14:27:07 MST Print View

"Either way, all the cars mentioned in this thread are far too underpowered anyway. Regardless, of quality, etc."

I didn't mention that the M5 was modified making about 20% more power than stock. Alas, it's not equipped with a trailer hitch though.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 14:38:05 MST Print View

@Nathan, that gives a new meaning to "hauling the goods."

You don't street race, do you? Eric wanted to know.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 14:47:03 MST Print View

"You don't street race, do you? Eric wanted to know."

I only street race against semis and scooters. Really though, my wife says I drive like an old man. Car is de-badged, which helps keep the number of "challengers" to a minimum. I've got nothing to prove.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Driving on 02/24/2013 15:17:36 MST Print View

You should see how I drive - 80km/hr seems white knuckle after spending 90% of my time on the scooter @ 55km/hr. My wife gives me a hard time.

Edited by dandydan on 02/24/2013 15:18:11 MST.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Driving on 02/24/2013 15:25:42 MST Print View

Imagine if Arcteryx made cars.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Driving on 02/24/2013 15:29:37 MST Print View

"Imagine if Arcteryx made cars."

Dead Wheels?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Driving on 02/24/2013 15:35:53 MST Print View

Imagine if Arcteryx made cars.

Hummer

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Driving on 02/24/2013 15:36:06 MST Print View

You'd have a $300,000 car on par with an entry level BMW.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Driving on 02/24/2013 15:44:13 MST Print View

"Imagine if Arcteryx made cars."

Imagine if REI sold cars

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Driving on 02/24/2013 16:20:15 MST Print View

The Hummer would be made by Mystery Ranch.

What is wrong with you people?


Dead Bird would make Beemer. Like totally.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Driving on 02/24/2013 16:22:37 MST Print View

"Imagine if REI sold cars"

Apparently they would all be Tercels, circa 1991. But the return policy would be excellent so you would only pay once. Talk about long term reliability.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Driving on 02/24/2013 16:23:18 MST Print View

They'd have a hell of a Scratch-n-Dent sale.


>Dead Bird would make Beemer. Like totally.

Will the side panels delaminate in the rain?

Edited by T.L. on 02/24/2013 16:26:29 MST.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Arc Cars on 02/24/2013 16:25:44 MST Print View

"You'd have a $300,000 car on par with an entry level BMW."
+1

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Arc Cars on 02/24/2013 16:33:14 MST Print View

And no doubt for $300k, the car would be worth it. Especially during the 40% off sales.

Suckas

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tercels on 02/24/2013 16:38:47 MST Print View

@ Nathan - BMW's make for great tow vehicles, you should try it sometime. I can put the hitch on there for you. What did you do for the 20% bump? I have a '00 Trans Am with a few goodies so you're speaking my language.

Ryan

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
A Canadian and his scooter.... on 02/24/2013 18:36:03 MST Print View

.... it's a beautiful thing.

:D D 1

:D D 2

Stephen Komae
(skomae) - MLife

Locale: northeastern US
Arcteryx on 02/24/2013 19:03:44 MST Print View

I know this thread has gotten off-topic to the point of no return but I'll throw in my two cents.

For me as a fairly active backpacker who also does a lot of climbing I really appreciate the fit and design of Arcteryx clothing over all other makers. Small details, especially the hood on my Theta SV and Beta Fl, the cuffs on my Atom SV and LT, and the pockets on my Rampart pants make Arcteryx gear a joy to use. I also appreciate the burly, but fairly light fabrics that have proven durable time and time again.

I do think that their base layers like the Motus SS Crew are very comfortable and also extremely good at wicking, but they do not have Arcteryx's usual durability.

I recently got a ridiculous deal on an Arcteryx AC2 pack and after some brief uses around the crag for ice climbing I have to say I'm impressed with that as well.

It's not to say that Patagonia, OR, Marmot or even The North Face don't have great gear -- they do (and outside the scope of my comment), and I own plenty from each, but Arcteryx is definitely a top notch maker by any measure.

christopher smead
(hamsterfish) - MLife

Locale: hamsterfish
Huge Arcteryx fan here, but... on 02/25/2013 02:19:04 MST Print View

I LOVE arcteryx. Nearly everyday I've got either an arcteryx shirt, fleece, or jacket of some sort on me.
For backpacking, I always being dead bird baselayers. Either phase sl, ar, or SV depending on conditions. They are the best I've found as far as warmth:weight ratio and wick wonderfully.
The palisade pants are my goto pants for 3 seasons, and the Gamma lt pants are great for snow. However....
The jackets are a little heavy compared to many UL options out there. So I only bring my alpha sl jacket and pants on very wet trips.
Also the insulating layers (ala atom lt) are not as warm or light as montbell, and the backpacks are really heavy.
I guess no brand is perfect.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Huge Arcteryx fan here on 02/25/2013 13:10:23 MST Print View

Alright! Arcteryx is getting into the down business and I now a lot of us who value quality, fit and finish, durability, and class leading technology will appreciate this link:

http://altitude-blog.com/arcteryx-down-jacket-party/

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Huge Arcteryx fan here on 02/26/2013 13:09:04 MST Print View

odd ...

when MEC or other manufacturers use PL1 with 800 fill down ... people dont like the idea

but dead bird does it and now BPLers LUV it ;)

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Snowsports/MensClothing/PRD~5024-382/mec-dual-degree-jacket-mens.jsp

hmmmm .....

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Huge Arcteryx fan here on 02/26/2013 15:50:43 MST Print View

Hey, I love arcteryx but I'm on record in an earlier thread saying I don't like their new down/synthetic combo coats.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Huge Arcteryx fan here on 02/26/2013 15:58:43 MST Print View

I find it odd that for someone who dislikes Arcteryx so much, you still like to pimp the product....

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=73952&skip_to_post=631318#631318

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Down party on 02/26/2013 16:57:25 MST Print View

I guess some company had to be last to the down party. Nothing innovative here.

[BTW, there was a BPL thread on Arc's down a few weeks ago with ORWM info/pics]

Edited by dandydan on 02/26/2013 16:58:57 MST.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Down party on 02/26/2013 17:32:15 MST Print View

The articulated arms are a neat touch, but I don't see much else worth dropping coin on. Curious as to what the price will be.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 02/27/2013 11:12:38 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Down party on 02/26/2013 17:35:53 MST Print View

"Nothing innovative here."

Except quality, fit and finish, best hoods, durability, and perfection in design. Finest jackets one can buy.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge Arcteryx fan here on 02/26/2013 18:09:29 MST Print View

I find it odd that for someone who dislikes Arcteryx so much, you still like to pimp the product....

i use what i find works well .... as said i use dead birds if its what fits me best at the price i want

no need to be blinded by the ideology of shiny dead bird logos ... which i assume that you have already used their synth/down garments since yr such a fan david ;)

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge Arcteryx fan here on 02/26/2013 18:13:40 MST Print View

Are you kidding? Way overpriced.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge Arcteryx fan here on 02/26/2013 18:18:59 MST Print View

lol

so how do you know that particular jacket is the

Except quality, fit and finish, best hoods, durability, and perfection in design. Finest jackets one can buy.

if youve never used that particular piece

i use dead birds when it suits me best and when i get em on sale ... but i do USE em and have recommended the ones that work, and slammed the ones that havent

course you should NEVER buy em anywhere near full price ;)