Hi Frank

Thanks for your comments. It's very interesting to get someone else's perspective. However, I think you do a different sort of walking from us. I get the impression from your web site that you often go from town to town, and often eat and sleep in the towns. We live in the mountains and only go into towns to shop, then we leave quickly. So our needs are different.

> I can't believe an Australian would choose a dinky canvas bucket hat versus a stylish Akubra felt hat.
Chuckle. The Akubra hats are what we sell to tourists from overseas - for megabucks. I make my own hats from heavy unbleached calico, so they cost me maybe a dollar each. Unfashionable but very functional.

> Contrary to what you wrote, tightly quilted polarguard, such as the Patagonia Puff pullover, will NOT break down under heavy use. If you get a piece of raw polarguard insulation and pull at it, you will immediately see that the fibers are extremely strong in one direction, as strong as polyester thread in fact, and so all you have to do is prevent the fibers from separating in the other direction by quilting every 2 inches or so.
This is very interesting, and encouraging. Maybe these synthetics have improved over the years? Sounds good, because we are taking the Cocoons instead of the 200-weight fleece. Thanks for the information.

> I am not sure if the Cocoon is this tightly quilted. Tight quilting reduce loft some.
No, there is no quilting in the Cocoons at all. Ah well, we shall see.

> don't understand this comment about soft alpine soils.
> My own experience is that about 50% of my campsites have very hard ground. In particular, I often find myself on the tops of hills where the ground is basically nothing but rock. Any less than a titanium nail stake is unlikely to work in places like this.
You should see some of our local Australian ridges! Hammering in Ti wire pegs witha rock takes time and breaks the rock ... trying to push the wire pegs in just wouldn't work. Our experience in the Pyrenees has been that the soil there is generally softer than our hard stuff at home, but I know that doesn't mean it will be the same everywhere. So I am taking some Ti wire pegs and some larger tubular pegs, to cover all bases. Of course, in really rocky situtaions I can often wedge a tubular peg in somewhere and then cover it with rocks.

> Personally, I'm quite happy eating uncooked food
No stoves and no cooking? Not for us. But we live in the mountains and don't eat in restaurants like you. As well, we find the ability to make hot food to be an absolutely vital safety factor in cold wet windy alpine situations.

> I think you should spend a lot more effort worrying about the appearance of your hiking clothes as opposed to funtionality. In the wilderness, no one cares what you look like. But when walk into town, it is a wonderful feeling to be able to dump your gear at a hotel or campground, shower up and wash your clothes, then put the clothes back on and let them dry from body heat (20 minutes for Taslan/supplex) and walk around town looking like a normal person rather than some geeky hiker. I would be especially surprised if your wife doesn't feel conspiciously underdressed during town stops.
Ah well, we don't spend any time in the towns you see. We shop and run. We have stayed in campgrounds a few times for the hot showers, but the hotels and restaurants thing - never done that, except when the trip is finished and we are waiting for our flight home
No, my wife does not feel any concerns about looking fashionable either. She usually just wants to get out of the town and back into the mountains.

> Silly kangaroo pocket, or a purse around your neck
Ah, but we aren't in the towns much you see. In our experience the kangaroo pocket works much better in the mountains than something hanging awkwardly around our necks. Very different requirements I think.

Cheers

Hi James,

I have to say I do not agree with you, I have tested Al, Ti and Al pots and Ti comes out slightly in front. Roger in my view is mostly right there is not much in it. The most gain what ever pot you use is from turning down the flame.

I have just returned from a hard widerness walk and I am very tired I will post some of my pot results tomorrow.

Tony

No worries. I am used to it.

To be fair my tests were not designed to evaluate pots and their material. Several years ago I was in my "everything is better when made from a pop can" phase. I swear every backpacker goes through this at one point or another. I don't think I ever left. Anyway, my goal was to concoct a cooking setup that could reliably boil 2 cups of water in realistic conditions using .5 oz of alcohol (including "priming" fuel if the stove so required). I defined boiling as 212 degrees on a thermocouple and started with, I think, 68 degree water. My memory is a little foggy on this but you get the point. I started in my kitchen and then moved candidate designs onto my backyard picnic table. Those that did well went into my pack and onto the trail. For each series of test I had a control setup that I would burn at the start of each of a series of tests. I am not sure if "control" is the right word but I would use it to make sure the starting conditions for the test were the same.

I went through a pile of pop cans changing the number of burner holes, burner hole patterns, burner height. I build pressurized side burners, open-top double-walled stoves, open top stoves (like the "ion"), etc, etc. I was scolded by the man that picks up the recycling because apparently you aren't supposed to put chopped up cans in the bin for pickup. It was THAT bad.

I have no clue how much denatured alcohol I bought from Home Depot. I bought it in gallon cans.

I even experimented with "fuel blending" meaning the mixing of higher BTU/lb fuels with alcohol in different ratios.

I learned a LOT from this, however. So it was worthwhile for sure. I recognize that there are many that could have just told me the answer and sent me packing but I am the kind of person that has to figure it out for myself. It's not that I am stubborn. I just like to have some sense of rationale behind what I am doing besides, "Linda said the fuel blending exercise was dangerous and a mistake." (She really said this and THIS is another story!)

One thing that I think everyone will tell you is that a cooking system has a lot of variables. You gain advantage in one area but lose it in another. All of the elements have to work together in the right conditions to produce consistently good results. Pot, lid, windscreen, stove, etc, etc. It's a balance.

I tried to change as few variables at a time as possible. Being a firebug I focused on the stove first (because that is the fun part). Later I moved on to the pot and windscreen.

The pot was a particular challenge because at the time I only had two of them. One was aluminum, an old pot my wife inherited from an aunt that passed away... old "garbage" from her house (one man's garbage is another man's...) The other was a Snow Peak 700 mug that I had used and abused. By the time I was done I couldn't pull a shirt out of my closet and not have a cascade of pots and pans fall out. I bought coffee pots (2 cup pots) both new and ancient, "normal" pots, the WalMart grease pot. I spent money on titanium pots that I only used once or twice. Really, it was nuts.

Anyway, I did manage to get a setup that boiled 2 cups of water with .5 oz of alcohol in the kitchen and sometimes in the field. Not a big "fireworks" discovery but the only way I was able to do this was using aluminum pots. I was never able to achieve this result with a Titanium pot, not even close.

Hi James

Sounds like a lot of fun! But as to your experience that:
> I was able to do this was using aluminum pots. I was never able to achieve this result with a Titanium pot
I wonder whether this could be explained by the well-known observation, that aluminium pots usually are wider and lower than titanium pots, at least in the past? All those tall coffee perks and tall narrow Ti mugs are grossly less efficient designs than the low wide grease pot Al designs.

This is why the new BPL pots are so interesting, apart from their light weight. They are wider, and that's more fuel-efficient with any sort of stove. ( :-)

Cheers

Hi James,

It does sound like had fun with your testing, I am not much into testing Alcohol burners other than the Trangia,
“Anyway, I did manage to get a setup that boiled 2 cups of water with .5 oz of alcohol in the kitchen and sometimes in the field.”

The JetBoil that I have just Purchased and tested used 4 grams (1/7th oz) of gas to boil 0.5 litre of water in the lab and I have just completed a three day walk which we used a JetBoil with the larger pot most of the time and I was very impressed with the ease of use and the efficiency of it although I did not have to carry it.

Here are some graphs of the results of my test on Titanium vs Aluminium vs Stainless Steel pots. The tests were conducted in similar conditions. The pots tested were similar in size but not exact sizes, each pot was tested on a MSR Pocket Rocket through a range of burn rates from very slow to very fast. At fast burn rate there is not much difference as most of the heat is being blown out the sides before it has time to transfer into the pot but at slow burn rates the pots showed different characteristics with the Aluminium pot coming out as the least efficient and the Ti pot the best.

I think the reason for the Aluminium pot being the least efficient is that as Aluminium has by far the best thermal conductivity which means the heat can be transferred to the water better it also can loose the heat from the side walls easier.

The first graph is thermal efficiency vs time.

The second graph is Time vs Fuel used to boil 0.5 litre water.


The picture is of my home testing lab. I use a calibrated Thermistor probe to measure water temperature and a thermocouple to measure gas temperature coming up the sides of the pot both temperatures are recorded on a computer using data logging software.

Tony

Edited by tbeasley on 04/29/2007 18:48:55 MDT.

LMAO! It looks like you were either testing pots and stoves or you were trying to re-animate dead body parts. Either way I totally approve of your lab setup.

Like I said, I wasn't studying the pots directly, only certain combinations trying to optimize an end result.

That said, I would imagine a lot would have to do with the geometry of the pot itself. I do know that some of my aluminum pots worked better than others. I couldn't fabricate my own pots so my options were limited to what I could purchase.

I will say that I have been getting excellent results with the JetBoil pot. I have yet to decide why it works so well... the heat exchanger, the neoprene sides, etc, etc. It has something good going for it. I used it on a recent trip and used the Snow Peak Ti stove with the Snow Peak windscreen (the windscreen nests _perfectly_ with the pot). Just a trickle of gas produces an absolutely sublime/perfect simmer. I actually had enough gas for that week in the Grand Canyon that I heated wash water to bathe with... unheard of for me. I finished with a lot of gas to spare... too much to make me happy in fact.

Anyway, I appreciate your results and find them very interesting to say the least.

I think I may have hijacked this thread! I just remembered what it was originally entitled... :)

Edited by jjpitts on 04/29/2007 19:29:13 MDT.

Hi James,

I ran some test on the JB using the larger JB pot and from the slowest flame setting (or burn rate as I like to call it) to the fastest flame (fully open valve 3.5 turns) while boiling 0.5 litre of water. The time taken to boil was between 16 minutes to 2 minutes 20 seconds. The amount of fuel used was between 4.0 grams to 4.9 grams. The Pocket Rocket used up to 10 grams of fuel to boil 0.5 litre of water in some tests.

Tony

It's good to see some thought put into keeping sleeping bags clean, although for me it's because I want to avoid washing my bag as much as possible.

I find liners a pain.. they make the bag even harder to get in & out of, they constantly slip down/twist, and they often don't match the bag size/shape which either means you waste the roominess of a big bag or you end up with too much material kicking about. And they still don't protect the bag from my head (picture Homer dribbling here).

I've ditched my silk liner in favour of sleeping in thermal underwear+socks + a thin powerstretch balacava (saves on a pillowcase too). I'm wondering how comfortable this will be in summer though.

Would be nice if sleeping bags incorporated removable lining for washing, or there was a way to easily attach a liner so it just felt like part of the bag.

Also, having only used a mummy style bag I wonder if quilt/arc style bags are easier to keep clean? You don't have any bag underneath you, and you don't put your head in or on a hood.

Maybe I'm overly paranoid about washing my bag though.

Hi Roger,

I would like to make a pillow like yours. How does one put holes so neatly into the foam?

thanks

Roger has been kind enough to send us some postcards to update us on his journey across Europe. I do not have precise dates for these notes, but will add his comments as I receive them.

Left Merens in bad weather. High passes blocked by snow. Went up 700m, down 850m, up 700m, down 700m... Weather improved! Crossed plains between Pyrenees and Cevennes - HARD work in the sun. Gear list going well. On to Cevenees.

Cheers, Roger

Edited by bugbomb on 06/09/2007 19:01:05 MDT.

At Lodeves in Cevennes. Weather usually wet - "exceptional" according to locals. Gear OK - just enough. Lots of French bread and cheese. Yet to have a dry tent! But gear is still dry. Geology very varied, including dry limestone areas - carry water. Eating well, going well, no injuries. Wet socks every day - no problems, quite normal!

Cheers, Roger

Limestone country, huge gorge in middle [the postcard shows a huge gorge with a a town nestled near a fascinating hill in the center - Ben]. Down into gorge, along bottom for many km to this town, then up wall and out to where this pic was taken. Weather improving - fine like this pic. All water gotten from public taps in villages - they all have filtered water supplies these days. Very convenient! Going well & good speed. Gear OK.

Regards, Roger

Hi Adrian

> I find liners a pain.. they make the bag even harder to get in & out of, they constantly slip down/twist, and they often don't match the bag size/shape which either means you waste the roominess of a big bag or you end up with too much material kicking about. And they still don't protect the bag from my head (picture Homer dribbling here).
I have to agree, especially about the constraints on leg movement with a narrow liner.

> I've ditched my silk liner in favour of sleeping in thermal underwear+socks + a thin powerstretch balacava (saves on a pillowcase too). I'm wondering how comfortable this will be in summer though.
Could be a bit hot - you might not even need the SB! That's why I went to light silk - very similar stuff to the silk SB liners.

Update: the silk lasted very well and the pygamas were comfy. In the cold i add the thermal underwear of course.

Hi Allan

Drilling holes in foam can be easy if done correctly. It can also be a disaster...
You need a bit of thin-wall tubing of the right diameter, plus some means of holding this in a drill press chuck. Don't try it with a hand-held drill.

Sharpen the end of the tube from the inside outwards (NOT the other way!). Essentially, you make a cork borer. Mark out the places where you want the holes and then drill each one. It can be a bit slow as you will need to stop the drill press afetr each hole to remove the plug of foam. Be very careful with the sharp edge! Caution: if the drill does not cut cleanly the foam can wrap around the tube and then everything flies around rather energetically. Be very careful. It helps if you can flare the cutting edge outwards just a little, to minimise the possibility of the foam grabbing.

An option I have not tried is to compress the foam carefully downwards before drilling. I think some of the airmat makers do this.

Good Luck!

Hi all

Would there be any interest in a post-trip evaluation of the gear list? In general it went well, but some items worked better than others. A few items were sent back, and one significant item had to be replaced half way.

Cheers
Roger
PS: for airline schedule reasons we ended up in Grindalwald for a few days at the end. Visited the bottom of the North Face of the Eiger and Jungfraujoch ... dream on ... :-)

Welcome back, Roger.

I would love to know how your gear worked out for you. In addition, it would be fun to hear stories from your trip.

Hi Roger,

would love to hear about your trip, how about a podcast?

Jeroen

>> any interest in a post-trip evaluation of the gear list?

Absolutely!

Also tell us about the bread and cheese, etc

> Also tell us about the bread and cheese, etc
Ah well...
We gave up on the traditional baguettes - long sticks of white bread, for several reasons. They make an incredible amount of crumbs, they have lots of big holes which makes spreading butter & jam difficult, you need huge volumes of them to get enough, and we found other traditional breads which were much better. We bought a lot of pain de compagne (country bread), pain complet (wholemeal) and segle (light rye). One thing which was almost unknown was the 'sliced white' loaf - with the consistency of a sponge and taste-free to boot.

By the end the two of us were eating a 400 gram loaf of wholemeal in one day. But since there were a fair few small towns with bread outlets along the way, this was quite realistic. (The French do love fresh bread.) Fortunately most bread distributers also stock butter and jam, so we ate that in equally unlimited quantity. (Very goods stuff butter: very high energy.) "Butter getting low? Town coming up."

Now, cheese. Ah yes. The French make REAL CHEESE, unlike that 'processed cheddar' crap (or Coon cheese crap) which Kraft and others tries to fob off on us. Emmental and Brie are good, but there were lots of other types which are less well-known in America and Australia. By way of example, Beaufont and St Nectaire are equally good, and for the more kinky among us there was always a huge range of LOCAL goat and sheep cheeses in small rounds to taste. In small towns the cheese vendor was often the farmer and cheese maker, and very proud of their product.

I also got stuck into 'saucisson sec' which is a dry pork sausage which can withstand a LOT of heat and travel. It's precooked of course. That also comes in a huge range with local variations, and is a very reliable way of carrying meat for dinner.

So very often the menu was
Breakfast: BBJ, tea/coffee
Morning tea: BBJ&cheese, tea/coffee
Lunch: BBJ&cheese
Snack: chocolate, sultanas
Dinner: Light soup, pasta with thick soup and cheese and saucisson, then maybe a little slice of fruit cake if we could find some.

Of course, every time we found bananas we bought some and ate them on the spot. The French have good bananas. Also we bought quite a number of cartons of yoghurt - ditto.

Haven't been on BPL for a while. Did I miss an after trip report concerning the gear and did I miss the trip report? If so where are they? if not will they come?

I'd be very interested to hear about your trip Roger.

Eins