Forum Index » Editor's Roundtable » Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe


Display Avatars Sort By:
Benjamin Smith
(bugbomb) - F - M

Locale: South Texas
Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/17/2007 23:57:46 MDT Print View

Companion forum thread to:

Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe

Andrew :-)
(terra) - F

Locale: Sydney, Australia.
Nice article Roger on 04/18/2007 02:06:06 MDT Print View

Very thorough article mate.
You have really thought this out. My only suggestions would be: The plastic potty trowel and a tent peg could be ditched as you are carrying the ice axe. This can dig holes and would make a good peg or storm anchor for the tent. I suppose the hiking pole might replace another peg. 2 pegs and a plastic trowel are not much of a saving but, as we know, it all adds up.

I understand what you are saying about Sue's pack and comfort but I believe there is a possible 1.5kg to save there by making her a custom pack. Some other articles could serve a dual use in the new custom pack (sit mats, foam mats, table cloth).
Take your knowledge of MYOG, add a Sydney based Chiropractic student (also ex mechanical/manufacturing engineer) who loves light gear designs... Perhaps something could be made that will save weight and help with Sue's injury. Think of all the extra toilet paper you could carry. ;-)

Have a good holiday mate.

Adrian B
(adrianb) - MLife

Locale: Auckland, New Zealand
Macpac Minaret 4 season tent on 04/18/2007 04:03:36 MDT Print View

Interesting reading about your tent: I've been looking at the Macpac Minaret which is a 'lightweight' (2.6kg) version of the Olympus. Not cheap though.

Edited by adrianb on 04/18/2007 04:05:35 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Addendum to Gear List on 04/18/2007 04:12:28 MDT Print View

Yes, I could drop the plastic trowel and use the Helix, I know. But sometimes we prefer to be a bit more inconspicuous. :-)

More importantly, we have since decided to drop the two fleece jackets (400 g each, toal 800 g) and rely just on the Cocoons. That's a far bigger weight saving!

A lightweight pack for Sue - yeah, I agree, but several we have tried just did not work FOR HER. It will come, one day.

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
great article, Roger! on 04/18/2007 04:50:21 MDT Print View

Great article, Roger. It was very informative. Your article was also a refreshing change from the "sub-X pound!" type posts where guys are going out with spandex, a foam mat, and an esbit tab. Yes, light is great, but going as light as possible sometimes must be tempered with a safety and comfort margin. Most deaths in remote areas are caused by exposure.

You did not solicit suggestions, but maybe you are interested.. Now that you have dialed in your gear functionality so well, maybe reduce parts count? You are carrying a very large number of items. Lean backpacking. (to modify a manufacturing mantra) An example is your cookset. I know you have an admirable system, but you could replace the plywood stove base, stove, radiation shield, windshield, 1.5l aluminum pot, aluminum lid, and and windshield (7 pieces), with a Jetboil 1.5L cookset; 4 pieces. Are those 7 items total really lighter than the Jetboil set after you account for a -5 grams/day fuel efficiency? But, somehow I think you've already done this analysis..

Another example is replacing your 3 sleeping bag stuffsacks and water carry bag with one SealLine Stormsack. Totes water and truly waterproofs your custom down bag. 45 grams.

One more suggestion. I do not know how much time you will actually be self belaying with an ice axe, but go find a big block of ice and try to simulate a self arrest swing with that potty trowel. It looks like an ice axe, but using a 200 gram axe on firm ice is like trying to pound a nail with a toy plastic hammer (except you only have one swing to maybe save your life). If you are expecting ice at more than the angle of repose, maybe carry a steel-headed Raven Pro. That will be a tricky decision since you must carry it for 4 months!

Your trip sounds amazingly fun and adventuresome. I hope you will report back after it's safe conclusion.
PS, I really enjoy your reviews over at geartest.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Never mind the b ollocks on 04/18/2007 06:06:39 MDT Print View

As a guest in Australia, I was born in Italy and am a New Zealander, I find Roger's remarks about how tough it is to hike here a bit funny.
I have resided in four different countries, and stayed for some time in three others, and all of them have been the toughest/best/worst/. All of them had the worst Government/transport/electricity/telephone system/weather/working conditions and so on. I am looking now for a country that is just like all the other ones.

Indeed,as I do sometime, off trail bushwalking can be tough, but there are many established relatively easy trails.
I do agree with him, not that it is relevant , about the non Jet Boil use, his set up is a lot more flexible from my point of view. Also having a relative knowledge of the area he is going through , ( I have relatives there..) the potty trowel will do well for summer "established" routes.
For Roger : you lucky b stard (USA translation : I wish you well in your endeavor)
I enjoyed the article , as usual.
Franco

Edited by Franco on 04/18/2007 22:20:27 MDT.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Re: Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/18/2007 08:29:06 MDT Print View

Sounds like you two will have a fabulous time! :-)
I don't normally carry a cutting board, but in the grocery store my eyes caught sight of a new one, a tiny very light, and flexible one. I think I may buy it! It would be nice for making sandwiches, cutting fruit, etc. It even comes with a plastic/lexan knife to cut with. Woo!

Jeff Sharp
(tsjeffery) - F

Locale: Blue Ridge
Re: Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/18/2007 09:37:11 MDT Print View

Hey Roger. Could you elaborate on the food you'll be eating on this trip? Great article. Sounds like an awesome trek. Enjoy!

Edward Ripley-Duggan
(edwardripleyduggan) - F
Taslan on 04/18/2007 11:14:37 MDT Print View

Thank you, Roger, for an exemplary article. Knowing your penchant for heading off into the brush, I found your Taslan comments interesting. We've briefly discussed bushwhacking gear before on BGT, but I was interested to read your opinion on Taslan. I might just give this a try myself. There are a few Taslan jackets available in the US, though I haven't (yet) found pants. Nothing as nice as your windsmock, unfortunately. Any particular weight of the fabric recommended as optimal for DIY?

Best,

Ted.

Miguel Marcos
(miguelmarcos) - F

Locale: Middle Iberia
Yes, the food... on 04/18/2007 15:09:47 MDT Print View

Hi, Roger. Many thanks for such a great article.

Like Jeff above, I'd really like to hear about your culinary strategies (beyond the baguette, cheese and fruit), too.

All the best with the trip.

Edited by miguelmarcos on 04/18/2007 15:10:18 MDT.

George Earle
(georgelearle) - M
More, please, about food methods on 04/18/2007 17:28:18 MDT Print View

Roger;
I too would like to hear more about your food plans. You said no freeze dried stuff, and fresh fruit when you shop. Mor details please. You said you will carry three days worth. How will you be able to shop every three days while in the Alps?
A great report on your equipment. Keep up the excellent work.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: great article, Roger! on 04/18/2007 22:18:38 MDT Print View

Hi Brett

> You did not solicit suggestions, but maybe you are interested.
Of course! That's why I published it. So ...

> Jetboil
I go by weight. The number of pieces doesn't matter imho.
The Jetboil PCS is too small to cook for the two of us, so you have to look at the Jetboil GCS. All weights in grams - sorry.

Jetboil stove: 208
Jetboil pot: 223
Pot base cover: 41 to protect the heat exchanger
Pot lid: 48 Jetboil one
Can stabiliser: 22
Total: 542
* But this does not include an adapter for the canister, without which the Jetboil is no use in France. The weight is below.
* The Jetboil system dies badly in really cold weather, up in the mountains, when the pressure in the canister drops. Lert the canister get cold, and it struggles. People have reported hand-holding the Jetboil to keep it going. Yeah, well...
* It only includes one pot, and I often use two pots when cooking for the two of us.
* You could replace the plastic Jetboil lid and save a few grams - true, but.

My system
Stove: 78
Base: 71
Windshield: 51
Rad shield: 10
MSR Titan pot: 125 with lid
MSR Titan kettle: 123 with lid

Could I take the Jetboil stabiliser instead of the bit of 3-ply? I tried this, but the crimp at the bottom of the canister varies slightly between brands. The Jetboil stabiliser fits the Jetboil canister; it does not fit some others.

Adapter for converting French CampinGaz canisters to screw-thread fitting: 39 g Needed for both systems.

It depends on how you do the sums, but a similar one-pot system of mine is about 335 grams. Even with two pots mine is still lighter. But my sytem can be used in very cold weather: you just take the radiation shield off the stove and let it heat the canister a bit. I have done this successfully in the snow. As long as the canister is just slightly warm to the touch all is wonderful. Not for beginners. You can't do this with the Jetboil - I tried.

The fabled Jetboil fuel effiency - yeah, well, it simply does not count AT ALL. We are resupplying regularly, and that includes buying fuel. A full canister (or a half-empty one) weighs the same, no matter which stove you use.

Sleeping bag stuff sacks: yes, a single stuff sack would be lighter than having the two sleeping bags packed separately. But Sue carries her SB, and I carry mine. And I decline to use my sleeping bag cover to carry water! Actually, there are two reasons why I decline: one is obvious, but the other is that I often get water from a little distance away for the evening *before* we camp. Bit hard to do this when the bag is still in my pack.

Helix Potty Trowel: this is NOT for use on ICE! Old spring neve maybe, but the stuff I am talking about is more like slightly consolidated corn snow. I know from previous trips that the Helix will have no trouble with it. No crampons, and light joggers! Frankly, I think the Helix could be overkill, but we have had neve on the passes before.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Never mind the b ollocks on 04/18/2007 22:20:46 MDT Print View

Hi Franco

> there are many established relatively easy trails. (in Oz)
There are a few, yes. But we are out almost every weekend, and mostly in fairly extreme country. One gets a bit tired of repeating the local trails all the time ... :-)

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/18/2007 22:27:19 MDT Print View

> Could you elaborate on the food you'll be eating on this trip?
Bought in the little shops in the little villages.

Breakfast: so far we have been able to get variations on Muesli, although towarsd the Med end of the Pyrenees in Spain I was reduced to the local approximation to Muesli bars ... Sue was eating small bread rolls or croissants.

Lunch: Local bread, butter, jam and of course CHEESE! You haven't lived until you have met good local French cheeses. That processed rubbish you get in supermarkets - it isn't even cheese!

Dinner: most times rice or pasta, with a local soup packet and either chopped up cheese, pre-cooked ham or similar, or some variant thereof. Followed by little French Madelaine cakes: extremely cheap but very good. The occasional bought Quiche or similar if we are camped near a larger town. Maybe even some French bread with a preliminary soup.

Snacks: stuff is available anywhere.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: More, please, about food methods on 04/18/2007 22:38:25 MDT Print View

Hi George

> You said no freeze dried stuff simply not available in little towns.

> and fresh fruit when you shop.
Ah yes, our indulgence. Two bananas and two small cartons of yoghurt ... Desert, if shopping after lunch. Yeah, I know, hardly SUL!

> How will you be able to shop every three days while in the Alps?
Good question, but you have to stand the question on its head. We will be using the French Grande Randonnee tracks, and many of these are DESIGNED to allow you to stay in a Refuge/Gite (aka 3-star hotel) every night. So they do pass through villages where we can shop.
Remember: this is not a constructed PCT type of track. The tracks we are using are maybe a thousand years old (or more). They were the routes over the mountains and between villages and so on for when people travelled on foot, and for when they took their animals up into the summer pastures each year. Some of the tracks are pilgrims' ways - sunk 2 metres or more below the surrounds.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Taslan on 04/18/2007 22:40:42 MDT Print View

Hi Ted

> Any particular weight of the fabric recommended as optimal for DIY?
Well, you could start with Quantum, but you know how fast that will shred ...
OK, OK, realistically - Taslan fabric about 150 gsm is a good weight imho.

Cheers

inaki diaz de etura
(inaki) - MLife

Locale: Iberia highlands
Route and UL in Europe on 04/19/2007 02:33:35 MDT Print View

Would you share a summary of your route? Mid-may can be challenging in the high country yet but I guess you already know that. Don't know about the Alps this year but the Pyrenees got a lot of late season snow (after a very dry winter). Right now, the pack is unstable and avalanche prone but should be melting fast due to warm temps.

You mention you mean to stay high in the mountains as much as possible. The one thing I find disturbing about this kind of backpacking in Western Europe is the constant proximity of civilization. In this context, going light or ultralightweight only makes things worse; at least, psychologically: you assume some compromises and it gets increasingly difficult to say no to the siren call of a warm bed when things turn ugly and you have the choice. I find that when you have no choice, it's easier to just keep on and be fine with it. As counterintuitive as it may sound, UL feels trickier to me when scape routes are all over the place and stuffed huts all over the trail. I don't know how you feel about this but I think your comfort based strategy sounds so reasonable from this point of view.

Have a great trip

Carsten Jost
(Carsten010) - M
Thumbs up for your adventure on 04/19/2007 04:25:14 MDT Print View

I´m kind of delighted to be able to contribute to the
discussion.

The Pyrenees are a great place to hike and there are some
things I´d like to add after a 400 Mile Hike in the
spanish Pyrenees on the GR11 in 2005.

Be flexible! There are three long-distance-hikes along
the spine of the Pyrenees and all offer great hiking.
The GR11 on the spanish and more weather-predictable
site of the Pyrenees, the GR10 on the french site and
the Haute Route Pyreenees (HRP) which is the most alpine
hiking route (for all those peak-baggers out there). So
check the maps and probably change your intended route if
you just get the feeling by talking to other hikers that
a certain stretch off your route might be cool.

Ordesa National Park e.g. on the spanish site is awesome.

Water purification. We carried Aqua Mira along the way but
never used it. The Pyrenees are pristine and even though
cattle and horses are sometimes grazing on alpine meadows
we never had any problems. Besides there are fountains in
every village you can safely drink out.

Food. Don´t plan your diet too much as local food is so
tasty. We carried local cheese, sausage and bread quite
often even though it added a lot of weight. But we just
wanted to experience not only the trail but the cuisine
of the land we walked through, too. Even though you´ll have
a hard time finding freeze-dried-stuff like Mountain House,
food like Lipton Noodles are easy to find.

Packs...I really do think that your wife´s pack is heavy.
There are a lot of comfy lighter internal backpacks out
there (ULA packs are among my and my girl-friends favourites).

Even though your whole gear list is not "ultralight" in
US-terms, it is still quite lite in european terms where
most hikers would usually carry much more for an adventure
like yours.

We wish you a lot of fun and if you didnt´stumble upon the
Guide Books from UK Cicerone Press, check out there books
on the GR11, GR10 and HRP.

CU

Sauerkraut

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Route and UL in Europe on 04/19/2007 04:39:03 MDT Print View

Hi Inaki

> Would you share a summary of your route?
Well, it's going to be very brief at this stage. From Merens les Val just near Andorra, over the Cevennes, using the GR7 a fair bit we think, to near Geneva, then south past Mont Blacc to Nice. Really, we have not planned it any tighter than that so far.

> it gets increasingly difficult to say no to the siren call of a warm bed when things turn ugly and you have the choice
I understand what you are saying, but it's not a problem. We are used to coping with bad weather in our tent. It is much more storm-proof than a tarp. We get plenty of bad weather here in Australia in the winter in our mountains.
This is our fourth major overseas trip. We don't use the Refuges because we don't like being in dormitories. We reckon we have just as much comfort in our tent. Anyhow, many of the Refuges are booked out months in advance by car-based tourists. Huh!
We do use the occasional camping ground in order to get a hot shower. Hey - we aren't entirely stupid!

Yep, the snow is melting fast. I have been monitoring a couple of web sites about this. Any suggestions of good web sites would of course be welcome.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Thumbs up for your adventure on 04/19/2007 04:45:17 MDT Print View

Hi Carsten

We have done both the entire GR10 and the entire GR11, and bits of the HRP.

Flexible? see previous posting about our route!

Local food - yep. Whatever is going. We eat well.

Cicerone - and FFRP. Good guide books. We speak and read French, so the FFRP ones are fine.

Pack - yes, I agree the Torre is heavy, and I would love to have my wife try out a few lighter packs. But we are in Australia. Not so easy. But ask which is better: a comfortable but heavy pack, or an uncomfortable but light pack? (For 4 months.)

Cheers

inaki diaz de etura
(inaki) - MLife

Locale: Iberia highlands
Re: Route and UL in Europe on 04/19/2007 13:52:11 MDT Print View

> I have been monitoring a couple of web sites about this. Any suggestions of good web sites would of course be welcome.

The one I use is at www.barrabes.com. It's very good and meant for mountaineers but the weather services are only in spanish and they offer data for the spanish side only. If you can't figure the spanish out, don't even bother.
www.meteoconsult.com is general purpose but they have a mountain specific section. Here you can choose language.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Route and UL in Europe on 04/19/2007 15:56:26 MDT Print View

> www.meteoconsult.com is general purpose
Thanks. Useful: warming up.

Elliott Wolin
(ewolin) - MLife

Locale: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Re: Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/20/2007 11:11:24 MDT Print View

Hi,

Two things pleased me about your article and responses.

The first was your courage in boldly flaunting the SUL party line, and taking comfortable pads and other heavier equipment, with good reasons. Chalk one up for you and like-minded BPL authors.

The second is the lack of knee-jerk response to this by BPL readers. I naively would have expected strong criticisms concerning your choices, and I am pleased there were none. Chalk another one up for BPL readers.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure your wife could find a lighter pack that works for her. I have old and new models of a Lowe woman's pack, identical suspension systems and very comfortable, but the new one is about two pounds lighter (4 vs 6 lbs).

As for thick pads, although I am only a lad at 53 compared to you, I too take thick inflatable pads on long trips. Years ago I took thin super-light blue foam pads, but I think I would not be able to walk the next day after a night on one of them now.

Thanks again for an article at the other end of the UL spectrum.

Adam Kilpatrick
(oysters) - MLife

Locale: South Australia
Re: Nice article Roger on 04/20/2007 21:02:38 MDT Print View

Gear list seems good Roger.

I agree with Sue carrying a decent harnessed pack like the Torre. I am personally a One Planet fan-I have an exact-fit plus harnessed Expedition Long. It works better for me than the Macpac Dynamic or Quantum harnesses, esp at extreme loads-others find it the other way around.

I have looked the pack over and I dont see how it would be that difficult to create a home-made pack, with lighter construction and features that you want for the pack body, and use the harness components from her Torre. I figure I can do that for a one planet-I can transfer all the difficult to copy components, like shoulder straps, wasit belt, frame bars. All the attachement points/incidental straps will be easy to replicate. The only hard bit is the lumbar pad, which is permanently sewn into the pack body. but I figure I might be able to makea similar one that will function fine (i think the hipbelt is more important). I could unstitch the lumbar pad carefully and create a velcro system on both my original pack and any lightweight/customs I make to transfer it.

While I havent had a detailed look at a Macpac dynamic/quantum harnessed pack for a while, it probably possible to do the same thing. I am definitely going to have a go with my One Planet harness components when I find the time (likely in a couple of years the way things are going...) and am very excited about the possibilities. Like a 120L jumbo pack for tassie made from 500D cordura or silnylon packs for lugging water on Desert crossings. These are potential once off packs that may only have to last one trip-then Ill jsut make another with the transfereable harness components. I am also thinking I could make a Arctic 1000 style pack out of it and have sacks for different style trips.

If you think its impracticle with the Macpac harnesses, maybe sue could try the one planet (The only harness with Chiropractic endorsement)-it might work for her, it might not.

Where do you source your x-pac fabric from?

Enjoy your trip, it sounds wonderful,

Adam

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/20/2007 22:42:59 MDT Print View

Hi Elliott

> I have old and new models of a Lowe woman's pack,
Yeah, we must go shopping one day. But it's about 1.5 hr by public transport, (and almost as long by private car plus the parking hassle!) to where the gear shops are.

Us grey nomads need a little comfort... :-)

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Nice article Roger on 04/20/2007 22:54:16 MDT Print View

Hi Adam

> f you think its impracticle with the Macpac harnesses, maybe sue could try the one planet (The only harness with Chiropractic endorsement)-it might work for her, it might not.
It's a thought. I'll take another look when we get back. Maybe my wife's back might be a bit better by then.

> Where do you source your x-pac fabric from?
You can buy small lengths direct from Dimension Polyant. They are very keen to get into the outdoors gear market.

Cheers

Jason Brinkman
(jbrinkmanboi) - MLife

Locale: Idaho
Great article Roger! on 04/21/2007 00:54:54 MDT Print View

Roger, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to lay out not only your detailed gear list, but the logic behind your choices. I have learned a lot from articles like yours, and they are the principle reason I subscribe to BPL.

Also, I too appreciate seeing an article now and then that isn't just a SUL contest. While I have all the respect in the world for those with the skills to go SUL, I learn as much or more from hearing the rationale behind UL or LW gear selections.

I consider myself a LW backpacker with base weights between 12 and 15 pounds for 3 season trips (has BPL defined what base weight range they consider UL?). My gear selection is based upon weight AND comfort, much like Roger's, with the caveat that I value simplicity and fewer total items/parts like Brett eluded to in his reply.

Michael Paterson
(MichaelPaterson) - F
Re: Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/22/2007 01:33:41 MDT Print View

very detailed, informative, and interesting, thank you

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
superb report on 04/23/2007 06:22:38 MDT Print View

Your report was not only both informative and enjoyable, but quite inspirational.

It encouraged me to add a long distance hike in Europe to My (& Wife's) Life List of Things To Do.

I love your bread and cheese strategy.

Mandy Kent
(vermontsilkie) - F

Locale: rural New England
Caffin gear on 04/23/2007 13:53:31 MDT Print View

oooooh YESSSS! You're folks after my own heart, makes me feel good about still wanting to be "out there" after all these years. Am hoping to find time to go over your writings with a fine-toothed comb to enjoy your philosophy and experience and advice. Meanwhile I skimmed and am impressed.

I, too, have made and modified much gear and particularly enjoy seeing what others come up with when thinking outside the box. Kudos to you. If you ever hike the Long Trail in Vermont, please let me know.

Edited by vermontsilkie on 04/23/2007 14:06:12 MDT.

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
MSR Titanpot on 04/24/2007 16:15:02 MDT Print View

Hi Roger,

I enjoyed reading your article it was nice change, sometimes it is not practical to go UL and SUL.

I recall that in previous discussions about Titanium vs Aluminium pots that you preferred aluminium pots with a thick base over Ti pots I would be interested as to find out why you are now using Ti pots.

I have used Ti pots for several years and my test indicate Ti pots are more efficient to use than aluminium pots although I have not tested the newer light anodized pots yet.


Tony

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: MSR Titanpot on 04/24/2007 23:32:43 MDT Print View

Hi Tony

> I recall that in previous discussions about Titanium vs Aluminium pots that you preferred aluminium pots with a thick base over Ti pots I would be interested as to find out why you are now using Ti pots.

The thick Al base was nice - more forgiving. But the Al pots were much heavier. And I don't burn the Ti pots in practice. Weight.

Cheers

Einstein X
(EinsteinX) - F

Locale: The Netherlands
Re: Re: MSR Titanpot on 04/26/2007 08:04:48 MDT Print View

Roger,

Excelent article, very informative. Seems you have a good reason for all the items you take. One question however; what are you gonna use the scalpels for? Those were the only items that for me seemed odd on your list.

Eins

Ed Jones
(cowboy) - F
Stove Adapter for GAZ vs Primus on 04/26/2007 22:10:45 MDT Print View

MSR makes the super fly stove which fits both types of valves: It breaks down quite well once you unscrew the head from the barrel--It has great simmering qualities as well-- about 4.5 oz. I share your observation about the danger of the exploding cannister. As you surround the whole rig with a screen, the cannister warms and repressurizes itself, and then can be operated on a lower setting, conserving fuel while putting out great heat. Machs Gut--Ed Jones

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: MSR Titanpot on 04/28/2007 04:19:10 MDT Print View

> One question however; what are you gonna use the scalpels for?
A good question.
These are straight-edge scalpel blades, with a very sharp point. I am carrying a steel bread & butter knife ('sharp') and a small miniature box cutter (also 'sharp'), but no pocket knife at all and no scissors. The scalpel blades are 'very sharp' and weigh what - less than a gram each? They serve for getting large splinters out, cutting micropore surgical tape and elastoplast strip, performing minor surgery if needed (quite minor!) and so on. They start life sealed and so are sterile. Once again, there's a weight/utility trade-off here.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
re MSR SuperFly stove on 04/28/2007 04:23:50 MDT Print View

> MSR makes the super fly stove which fits both types of valves

I field-tested an early version of this stove, and frankly I was left a bit unhappy about the reliability of the connection. Granted, the production versions may be better and stronger, but that fuel is serious stuff and I have seen too many accidents over the years. So I am a bit cautious.

James Pitts
(jjpitts) - F

Locale: Midwest US
Re: Re: MSR Titanpot on 04/28/2007 08:51:27 MDT Print View

On the topic of Ti vs Al...

I have done a lot of testing with pots and stoves, like so many in this community have no doubt already done. Among the many things I learned was that boil times with an Al pot were consistently much faster than with a Ti pot (hence one would use less fuel).

This all makes sense. If you look at a table of thermal conductivity of metals Al is right at the top. Ti is way, way down the list. I was talking about this to a friend of mine that welds. He laughed and said he could hold the end of a Ti rod for a while he worked with it. If he did the same thing with an Al rod he would badly burn his hand. It was a classic example of how empirical experience is more valuable than book knowledge. :)

Now everyone knows there are pros and cons as well as personal preferences. My lightest Al "pot" is a 2 cup aluminum flour measuring cup I bought at a flea market. I use foil for a lid. I don't have a pot (Ti or otherwise) that even comes close in weight.

The problems that I have my "SUL Al pot" are trivial and manageable. First, it's somewhat easy to mangle so it does need to be packed with care like almost every other piece of SUL gear I own. Second, because Al is so heat conductive it makes a terrible mug. The cup is literally the same temperature as the liquid within it. I burn my lip when I try to drink out of it if I don't let the beverage cool first. Finally, the Al pot cools very quickly and if I don't us a proper windscreen a slight breeze seems to rob the setup of heat.

The Ti vs Al topic is far from closed in my book, that's for sure. I switch-hit between my flour-cup pot setup (by far my lightest), the Fosters beer can setup, and a Ti pot setup. Still, for a weekend trip, the flour cup setup most often finds its way onto my ever-changing gear list.

Frank Ramos
(frprovis) - F
Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/28/2007 11:05:22 MDT Print View

Since I spend about 7 months a year myself hiking in Europe, I found this article very interesting. A few comments:

If you insist on shoes, the choice of Salomon is a good one, since these are widely available in Europe, especially France. I've used Salomon in the past and found them the best shoes for someone with wide front feet. Wide front feet are actually normal. Narrow front feet are not the result of genetic difference, but rather the result of weak muscles due to walking in shoes from early childhood. Same as a pot belly--a pot belly is due to weak muscles, not genetic difference. Personally, I use sandals. I recently had to walk for about an hour in snow with these (about 3 kilometers over the snow banks on Mt Helmos here in Greece). My feet got cold, but there was never any danger. Since reading about Wim Hof (http://www.innerfire.nl/), my whole attitude to cold has changed. By switching to sandals, you totally eliminate the problem of socks and keeping them clean and you are very unlikely to get blisters. You can also just plow right through streams.

I can't believe an Australian would choose a dinky canvas bucket hat versus a stylish Akubra felt hat.

Taslan/supplex pants/shirts are a good choice--same that I use. I wear my supplex shorts for 7 months in Europe and they never let me down, though I slip and fall on my butt often enough. Be sure to double or triple-stitch the seams. The shirt may wear out and become weak due to high altitude UV, so be sure to bring a replacement.

A trekking pole is very useful in Europe for dogs. In France, for example, I was once attacked by a 100 lb pit bull which leaped for my throat without even giving a warning bark. I saw him jumping at me from the corner of my eye, turned quickly, pointed my stick at his open mouth and braced myself for the impact. The stick caught the dog in the teeth and he fell back, shaking his head as if groggy. I hate to think what would have happened without a stick. I have also been attacked by packs of dogs in Spain. Here in Greece, the dogs are even more ferocious. These packs of dogs are designed to drive off brown bears (the European version of the American grizzly, though smaller and less aggressive) and wolves, which still exist in the Pindos mountains. I have already been mobbed twice by packs of sheep dogs in the Peleponesus and these are nothing like the sheep dogs of the Pindos, or so I've been told. I held the dogs off with my stick until the shepherd arrived. These sheep dogs understand the meaning of a stick since the sherherds here don't hesitate the beat the living cr*p out of their dogs whenever they don't obey his orders. They also keep the dogs underfed and generally try to make them as mean and vicious as possible. A sturdy stick is thus highly advisable when wandering in the mountains here.

This is my first year using GPS. I'm finding it surprising useful even with topo maps and good map reading ability. The Garmin Foretex weighs only 70 grams and costs about $120. Even the best mountaineer is liable to get lost without GPS when it is foggy, as it often is in Europe.

Contrary to what you wrote, tightly quilted polarguard, such as the Patagonia Puff pullover, will NOT break down under heavy use. If you get a piece of raw polarguard insulation and pull at it, you will immediately see that the fibers are extremely strong in one direction, as strong as polyester thread in fact, and so all you have to do is prevent the fibers from separating in the other direction by quilting every 2 inches or so. I am not sure if the Cocoon is this tightly quilted. Tight quilting reduce loft some. However, even with this loss of loft, my Patagonia Puffball (same design as the cocoon) is adequate for temperatures well below freezing, and that is after wearing it for several years now under my pack straps .

You don't need so much cold weather gear, especially given that you have a tent. Yes, it can snow in the Alps in the spring, but mostly the weather is mild. The worst situation you are likely to encounter is near-freezing rain with a strong wind. Put on the cocoons and the poncho, press on until you find a decent campsite, then make camp and wait the storm out.

I don't understand this comment about soft alpine soils. Yes, some of the soils are soft, but these are also covered with turf and nail stakes work fine in that, especially if covered with heavy rocks. I've tried many stakes and finally went with 100% Vargo titanium nail stakes, regardless of the minor extra weight (use a PVC t-joint as pusher for situations where no rocks available to pound the stake into the ground). My own experience is that about 50% of my campsites have very hard ground. In particular, I often find myself on the tops of hills where the ground is basically nothing but rock. Any less than a titanium nail stake is unlikely to work in places like this.

I suppose a stove is a personal choice. Personally, I'm quite happy eating uncooked food (biscuits and dried fruit here in Greece) or just fasting between town stops, given that I can eat at restaurants and buy fresh food from the grocery at these frequent town stops.

I think you should spend a lot more effort worrying about the appearance of your hiking clothes as opposed to funtionality. In the wilderness, no one cares what you look like. But when walk into town, it is a wonderful feeling to be able to dump your gear at a hotel or campground, shower up and wash your clothes, then put the clothes back on and let them dry from body heat (20 minutes for Taslan/supplex) and walk around town looking like a normal person rather than some geeky hiker. I would be especially surprised if your wife doesn't feel conspiciously underdressed during town stops. Given that you are making your own pants/smock, it wouldn't be hard to make these such that they are suitable for town use (ditch that silly kangeroo pocket and those elastic cuffs on the pants, in particular).

Instead of the silly kangeroo pocket, I recommend making a simple purse which you hand around your neck while hiking to hold maps, books, compass, etc.

My own experiences with long hikes in Europe are here. I've already changed my opinions about a few of these items on my gear lists, so don't take this as gospel.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: MSR Titanpot on 04/28/2007 15:43:19 MDT Print View

Hi James

> Among the many things I learned was that boil times with an Al pot were consistently much faster than with a Ti pot (hence one would use less fuel).
I have to record that I completely disagree with you. And yes, I have done the tests too. There are several reasons why what you say is not true every time.
First, the thermal mass of the pot is trivial compared to the thermal mass of the water. It takes huge amounts of energy to heat a mass of water compared the same mass of any metal.
Second, the thickness of the metal base in lightweight pots is so small that the temperature gradient across the base is usually of the order of about 1 to 2 degrees centigrade, despite the differences in thermal conductivity. This is a trivial temperature drop as well.
Third, the blanket statement that Al pots boil faster ignores two other quite important factors: the diameter of the pot and the thickness of the metal. The base can vary over a large range of thickness, which does affect the thermal mass, while the diameter of the pot directly affects the rate energy is absorbed by the pot. The bigger the diameter, the faster the heating. Yes, I have measured this, although it is not that easy to make accurate scientific measurements here.

> (hence one would use less fuel).
Here I have to disagree with you as well. The faster you heat a pot the less efficient the heating, because at higher power more of the heat is wasted up the side of the pot. This is quite well-known these days.

Sorry, but based on my measurements I think the Al vs Ti claims are another suburban myth.

James Pitts
(jjpitts) - F

Locale: Midwest US
Re: Re: Re: Re: MSR Titanpot on 04/28/2007 17:08:14 MDT Print View

It all sounds good but it didn't pan out in my tests. Perhaps I have the wrong kind of Titanium.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 04/28/2007 17:10:25 MDT Print View

Hi Frank

Thanks for your comments. It's very interesting to get someone else's perspective. However, I think you do a different sort of walking from us. I get the impression from your web site that you often go from town to town, and often eat and sleep in the towns. We live in the mountains and only go into towns to shop, then we leave quickly. So our needs are different.

> I can't believe an Australian would choose a dinky canvas bucket hat versus a stylish Akubra felt hat.
Chuckle. The Akubra hats are what we sell to tourists from overseas - for megabucks. I make my own hats from heavy unbleached calico, so they cost me maybe a dollar each. Unfashionable but very functional.

> Contrary to what you wrote, tightly quilted polarguard, such as the Patagonia Puff pullover, will NOT break down under heavy use. If you get a piece of raw polarguard insulation and pull at it, you will immediately see that the fibers are extremely strong in one direction, as strong as polyester thread in fact, and so all you have to do is prevent the fibers from separating in the other direction by quilting every 2 inches or so.
This is very interesting, and encouraging. Maybe these synthetics have improved over the years? Sounds good, because we are taking the Cocoons instead of the 200-weight fleece. Thanks for the information.

> I am not sure if the Cocoon is this tightly quilted. Tight quilting reduce loft some.
No, there is no quilting in the Cocoons at all. Ah well, we shall see.

> don't understand this comment about soft alpine soils.
> My own experience is that about 50% of my campsites have very hard ground. In particular, I often find myself on the tops of hills where the ground is basically nothing but rock. Any less than a titanium nail stake is unlikely to work in places like this.
You should see some of our local Australian ridges! Hammering in Ti wire pegs witha rock takes time and breaks the rock ... trying to push the wire pegs in just wouldn't work. Our experience in the Pyrenees has been that the soil there is generally softer than our hard stuff at home, but I know that doesn't mean it will be the same everywhere. So I am taking some Ti wire pegs and some larger tubular pegs, to cover all bases. Of course, in really rocky situtaions I can often wedge a tubular peg in somewhere and then cover it with rocks.

> Personally, I'm quite happy eating uncooked food
No stoves and no cooking? Not for us. But we live in the mountains and don't eat in restaurants like you. As well, we find the ability to make hot food to be an absolutely vital safety factor in cold wet windy alpine situations.

> I think you should spend a lot more effort worrying about the appearance of your hiking clothes as opposed to funtionality. In the wilderness, no one cares what you look like. But when walk into town, it is a wonderful feeling to be able to dump your gear at a hotel or campground, shower up and wash your clothes, then put the clothes back on and let them dry from body heat (20 minutes for Taslan/supplex) and walk around town looking like a normal person rather than some geeky hiker. I would be especially surprised if your wife doesn't feel conspiciously underdressed during town stops.
Ah well, we don't spend any time in the towns you see. We shop and run. We have stayed in campgrounds a few times for the hot showers, but the hotels and restaurants thing - never done that, except when the trip is finished and we are waiting for our flight home
No, my wife does not feel any concerns about looking fashionable either. She usually just wants to get out of the town and back into the mountains.

> Silly kangaroo pocket, or a purse around your neck
Ah, but we aren't in the towns much you see. In our experience the kangaroo pocket works much better in the mountains than something hanging awkwardly around our necks. Very different requirements I think.

Cheers

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Titan pot on 04/29/2007 03:28:40 MDT Print View

Hi James,

I have to say I do not agree with you, I have tested Al, Ti and Al pots and Ti comes out slightly in front. Roger in my view is mostly right there is not much in it. The most gain what ever pot you use is from turning down the flame.

I have just returned from a hard widerness walk and I am very tired I will post some of my pot results tomorrow.

Tony

James Pitts
(jjpitts) - F

Locale: Midwest US
Re: Re: Titan pot on 04/29/2007 10:02:10 MDT Print View

No worries. I am used to it.

To be fair my tests were not designed to evaluate pots and their material. Several years ago I was in my "everything is better when made from a pop can" phase. I swear every backpacker goes through this at one point or another. I don't think I ever left. Anyway, my goal was to concoct a cooking setup that could reliably boil 2 cups of water in realistic conditions using .5 oz of alcohol (including "priming" fuel if the stove so required). I defined boiling as 212 degrees on a thermocouple and started with, I think, 68 degree water. My memory is a little foggy on this but you get the point. I started in my kitchen and then moved candidate designs onto my backyard picnic table. Those that did well went into my pack and onto the trail. For each series of test I had a control setup that I would burn at the start of each of a series of tests. I am not sure if "control" is the right word but I would use it to make sure the starting conditions for the test were the same.

I went through a pile of pop cans changing the number of burner holes, burner hole patterns, burner height. I build pressurized side burners, open-top double-walled stoves, open top stoves (like the "ion"), etc, etc. I was scolded by the man that picks up the recycling because apparently you aren't supposed to put chopped up cans in the bin for pickup. It was THAT bad.

I have no clue how much denatured alcohol I bought from Home Depot. I bought it in gallon cans.

I even experimented with "fuel blending" meaning the mixing of higher BTU/lb fuels with alcohol in different ratios.

I learned a LOT from this, however. So it was worthwhile for sure. I recognize that there are many that could have just told me the answer and sent me packing but I am the kind of person that has to figure it out for myself. It's not that I am stubborn. I just like to have some sense of rationale behind what I am doing besides, "Linda said the fuel blending exercise was dangerous and a mistake." (She really said this and THIS is another story!)

One thing that I think everyone will tell you is that a cooking system has a lot of variables. You gain advantage in one area but lose it in another. All of the elements have to work together in the right conditions to produce consistently good results. Pot, lid, windscreen, stove, etc, etc. It's a balance.

I tried to change as few variables at a time as possible. Being a firebug I focused on the stove first (because that is the fun part). Later I moved on to the pot and windscreen.

The pot was a particular challenge because at the time I only had two of them. One was aluminum, an old pot my wife inherited from an aunt that passed away... old "garbage" from her house (one man's garbage is another man's...) The other was a Snow Peak 700 mug that I had used and abused. By the time I was done I couldn't pull a shirt out of my closet and not have a cascade of pots and pans fall out. I bought coffee pots (2 cup pots) both new and ancient, "normal" pots, the WalMart grease pot. I spent money on titanium pots that I only used once or twice. Really, it was nuts.

Anyway, I did manage to get a setup that boiled 2 cups of water with .5 oz of alcohol in the kitchen and sometimes in the field. Not a big "fireworks" discovery but the only way I was able to do this was using aluminum pots. I was never able to achieve this result with a Titanium pot, not even close.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Titan pot on 04/29/2007 15:34:37 MDT Print View

Hi James

Sounds like a lot of fun! But as to your experience that:
> I was able to do this was using aluminum pots. I was never able to achieve this result with a Titanium pot
I wonder whether this could be explained by the well-known observation, that aluminium pots usually are wider and lower than titanium pots, at least in the past? All those tall coffee perks and tall narrow Ti mugs are grossly less efficient designs than the low wide grease pot Al designs.

This is why the new BPL pots are so interesting, apart from their light weight. They are wider, and that's more fuel-efficient with any sort of stove. ( :-)

Cheers

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Re: Re: Titan pot on 04/29/2007 18:47:44 MDT Print View

Hi James,

It does sound like had fun with your testing, I am not much into testing Alcohol burners other than the Trangia,
“Anyway, I did manage to get a setup that boiled 2 cups of water with .5 oz of alcohol in the kitchen and sometimes in the field.”

The JetBoil that I have just Purchased and tested used 4 grams (1/7th oz) of gas to boil 0.5 litre of water in the lab and I have just completed a three day walk which we used a JetBoil with the larger pot most of the time and I was very impressed with the ease of use and the efficiency of it although I did not have to carry it.

Here are some graphs of the results of my test on Titanium vs Aluminium vs Stainless Steel pots. The tests were conducted in similar conditions. The pots tested were similar in size but not exact sizes, each pot was tested on a MSR Pocket Rocket through a range of burn rates from very slow to very fast. At fast burn rate there is not much difference as most of the heat is being blown out the sides before it has time to transfer into the pot but at slow burn rates the pots showed different characteristics with the Aluminium pot coming out as the least efficient and the Ti pot the best.

I think the reason for the Aluminium pot being the least efficient is that as Aluminium has by far the best thermal conductivity which means the heat can be transferred to the water better it also can loose the heat from the side walls easier.

The first graph is thermal efficiency vs time.

The second graph is Time vs Fuel used to boil 0.5 litre water.


The picture is of my home testing lab. I use a calibrated Thermistor probe to measure water temperature and a thermocouple to measure gas temperature coming up the sides of the pot both temperatures are recorded on a computer using data logging software.

Tony

Stove lab
Pot graph
Pot Efficiencr graph

Edited by tbeasley on 04/29/2007 18:48:55 MDT.

James Pitts
(jjpitts) - F

Locale: Midwest US
Re: Re: Re: Re: Titan pot on 04/29/2007 19:27:36 MDT Print View

LMAO! It looks like you were either testing pots and stoves or you were trying to re-animate dead body parts. Either way I totally approve of your lab setup.

Like I said, I wasn't studying the pots directly, only certain combinations trying to optimize an end result.

That said, I would imagine a lot would have to do with the geometry of the pot itself. I do know that some of my aluminum pots worked better than others. I couldn't fabricate my own pots so my options were limited to what I could purchase.

I will say that I have been getting excellent results with the JetBoil pot. I have yet to decide why it works so well... the heat exchanger, the neoprene sides, etc, etc. It has something good going for it. I used it on a recent trip and used the Snow Peak Ti stove with the Snow Peak windscreen (the windscreen nests _perfectly_ with the pot). Just a trickle of gas produces an absolutely sublime/perfect simmer. I actually had enough gas for that week in the Grand Canyon that I heated wash water to bathe with... unheard of for me. I finished with a lot of gas to spare... too much to make me happy in fact.

Anyway, I appreciate your results and find them very interesting to say the least.

I think I may have hijacked this thread! I just remembered what it was originally entitled... :)

Edited by jjpitts on 04/29/2007 19:29:13 MDT.

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Re: Re: Re: Titan pot on 04/29/2007 20:05:25 MDT Print View

Hi James,

I ran some test on the JB using the larger JB pot and from the slowest flame setting (or burn rate as I like to call it) to the fastest flame (fully open valve 3.5 turns) while boiling 0.5 litre of water. The time taken to boil was between 16 minutes to 2 minutes 20 seconds. The amount of fuel used was between 4.0 grams to 4.9 grams. The Pocket Rocket used up to 10 grams of fuel to boil 0.5 litre of water in some tests.

Tony

Adrian B
(adrianb) - MLife

Locale: Auckland, New Zealand
Keeping sleeping bags clean on 05/16/2007 00:18:45 MDT Print View

It's good to see some thought put into keeping sleeping bags clean, although for me it's because I want to avoid washing my bag as much as possible.

I find liners a pain.. they make the bag even harder to get in & out of, they constantly slip down/twist, and they often don't match the bag size/shape which either means you waste the roominess of a big bag or you end up with too much material kicking about. And they still don't protect the bag from my head (picture Homer dribbling here).

I've ditched my silk liner in favour of sleeping in thermal underwear+socks + a thin powerstretch balacava (saves on a pillowcase too). I'm wondering how comfortable this will be in summer though.

Would be nice if sleeping bags incorporated removable lining for washing, or there was a way to easily attach a liner so it just felt like part of the bag.

Also, having only used a mummy style bag I wonder if quilt/arc style bags are easier to keep clean? You don't have any bag underneath you, and you don't put your head in or on a hood.

Maybe I'm overly paranoid about washing my bag though.

Allan Starr
(ads) - F
Pillows - How does one put holes in the foam? on 05/19/2007 04:22:16 MDT Print View

Hi Roger,

I would like to make a pillow like yours. How does one put holes so neatly into the foam?

thanks

Benjamin Smith
(bugbomb) - F - M

Locale: South Texas
Roger Caffin - update 1 on 06/09/2007 18:39:57 MDT Print View

Roger has been kind enough to send us some postcards to update us on his journey across Europe. I do not have precise dates for these notes, but will add his comments as I receive them.

Left Merens in bad weather. High passes blocked by snow. Went up 700m, down 850m, up 700m, down 700m... Weather improved! Crossed plains between Pyrenees and Cevennes - HARD work in the sun. Gear list going well. On to Cevenees.

Cheers, Roger

Edited by bugbomb on 06/09/2007 19:01:05 MDT.

Benjamin Smith
(bugbomb) - F - M

Locale: South Texas
Roger Caffin - update 2 on 06/09/2007 18:42:21 MDT Print View

At Lodeves in Cevennes. Weather usually wet - "exceptional" according to locals. Gear OK - just enough. Lots of French bread and cheese. Yet to have a dry tent! But gear is still dry. Geology very varied, including dry limestone areas - carry water. Eating well, going well, no injuries. Wet socks every day - no problems, quite normal!

Cheers, Roger

Benjamin Smith
(bugbomb) - F - M

Locale: South Texas
Roger Caffin - update 3 on 06/09/2007 18:58:55 MDT Print View

Limestone country, huge gorge in middle [the postcard shows a huge gorge with a a town nestled near a fascinating hill in the center - Ben]. Down into gorge, along bottom for many km to this town, then up wall and out to where this pic was taken. Weather improving - fine like this pic. All water gotten from public taps in villages - they all have filtered water supplies these days. Very convenient! Going well & good speed. Gear OK.

Regards, Roger

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Keeping sleeping bags clean on 08/18/2007 05:42:06 MDT Print View

Hi Adrian

> I find liners a pain.. they make the bag even harder to get in & out of, they constantly slip down/twist, and they often don't match the bag size/shape which either means you waste the roominess of a big bag or you end up with too much material kicking about. And they still don't protect the bag from my head (picture Homer dribbling here).
I have to agree, especially about the constraints on leg movement with a narrow liner.

> I've ditched my silk liner in favour of sleeping in thermal underwear+socks + a thin powerstretch balacava (saves on a pillowcase too). I'm wondering how comfortable this will be in summer though.
Could be a bit hot - you might not even need the SB! That's why I went to light silk - very similar stuff to the silk SB liners.

Update: the silk lasted very well and the pygamas were comfy. In the cold i add the thermal underwear of course.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Pillows - How does one put holes in the foam? on 08/18/2007 05:49:03 MDT Print View

Hi Allan

Drilling holes in foam can be easy if done correctly. It can also be a disaster...
You need a bit of thin-wall tubing of the right diameter, plus some means of holding this in a drill press chuck. Don't try it with a hand-held drill.

Sharpen the end of the tube from the inside outwards (NOT the other way!). Essentially, you make a cork borer. Mark out the places where you want the holes and then drill each one. It can be a bit slow as you will need to stop the drill press afetr each hole to remove the plug of foam. Be very careful with the sharp edge! Caution: if the drill does not cut cleanly the foam can wrap around the tube and then everything flies around rather energetically. Be very careful. It helps if you can flare the cutting edge outwards just a little, to minimise the possibility of the foam grabbing.

An option I have not tried is to compress the foam carefully downwards before drilling. I think some of the airmat makers do this.

Good Luck!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Post-trip evaluation of gear list on 08/18/2007 05:54:16 MDT Print View

Hi all

Would there be any interest in a post-trip evaluation of the gear list? In general it went well, but some items worked better than others. A few items were sent back, and one significant item had to be replaced half way.

Cheers
Roger
PS: for airline schedule reasons we ended up in Grindalwald for a few days at the end. Visited the bottom of the North Face of the Eiger and Jungfraujoch ... dream on ... :-)

Dondo .
(Dondo)

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Post-trip evaluation of gear list on 08/18/2007 06:32:14 MDT Print View

Welcome back, Roger.

I would love to know how your gear worked out for you. In addition, it would be fun to hear stories from your trip.

Jeroen Wesselman
(jeroenman) - F

Locale: Europe
Re: Post-trip evaluation of gear list on 08/20/2007 09:26:05 MDT Print View

Hi Roger,

would love to hear about your trip, how about a podcast?

Jeroen

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Post-trip evaluation of gear list on 09/07/2007 11:08:57 MDT Print View

>> any interest in a post-trip evaluation of the gear list?

Absolutely!

Also tell us about the bread and cheese, etc

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
re bread & cheese on 09/07/2007 15:42:51 MDT Print View

> Also tell us about the bread and cheese, etc
Ah well...
We gave up on the traditional baguettes - long sticks of white bread, for several reasons. They make an incredible amount of crumbs, they have lots of big holes which makes spreading butter & jam difficult, you need huge volumes of them to get enough, and we found other traditional breads which were much better. We bought a lot of pain de compagne (country bread), pain complet (wholemeal) and segle (light rye). One thing which was almost unknown was the 'sliced white' loaf - with the consistency of a sponge and taste-free to boot.

By the end the two of us were eating a 400 gram loaf of wholemeal in one day. But since there were a fair few small towns with bread outlets along the way, this was quite realistic. (The French do love fresh bread.) Fortunately most bread distributers also stock butter and jam, so we ate that in equally unlimited quantity. (Very goods stuff butter: very high energy.) "Butter getting low? Town coming up."

Now, cheese. Ah yes. The French make REAL CHEESE, unlike that 'processed cheddar' crap (or Coon cheese crap) which Kraft and others tries to fob off on us. Emmental and Brie are good, but there were lots of other types which are less well-known in America and Australia. By way of example, Beaufont and St Nectaire are equally good, and for the more kinky among us there was always a huge range of LOCAL goat and sheep cheeses in small rounds to taste. In small towns the cheese vendor was often the farmer and cheese maker, and very proud of their product.

I also got stuck into 'saucisson sec' which is a dry pork sausage which can withstand a LOT of heat and travel. It's precooked of course. That also comes in a huge range with local variations, and is a very reliable way of carrying meat for dinner.

So very often the menu was
Breakfast: BBJ, tea/coffee
Morning tea: BBJ&cheese, tea/coffee
Lunch: BBJ&cheese
Snack: chocolate, sultanas
Dinner: Light soup, pasta with thick soup and cheese and saucisson, then maybe a little slice of fruit cake if we could find some.

Of course, every time we found bananas we bought some and ate them on the spot. The French have good bananas. Also we bought quite a number of cartons of yoghurt - ditto.

Einstein X
(EinsteinX) - F

Locale: The Netherlands
Re: re bread & cheese on 11/25/2007 14:12:06 MST Print View

Haven't been on BPL for a while. Did I miss an after trip report concerning the gear and did I miss the trip report? If so where are they? if not will they come?

I'd be very interested to hear about your trip Roger.

Eins

Shahrin Bin Shariff
(zzmelayu) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Table Mountain
Re: Re: re bread & cheese on 11/26/2007 00:02:00 MST Print View

Same here. Did I miss a trip report?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: re bread & cheese on 11/26/2007 01:54:05 MST Print View

> Same here. Did I miss a trip report?
No, the post-trip gear evaluation got a bit delayed by some other issues. However, it is now in the pipeline.

Cheers

Tom Van Wauwe
(Woubeir) - F
Re: Re: Re: re bread & cheese on 11/26/2007 11:44:46 MST Print View

fresh bread, cheese, saucisson, ...
I see Roger has experienced the delights of walking in France.
Well, you know what they say: living like God in France.

Hartley F
(backpackerchick) - MLife

Locale: Planet Earth
Nice Work on 10/10/2009 13:17:48 MDT Print View

Wow, what a great review. I like your style! For this type of backpacking, this is what I am aspiring to gear wise. I'm probably going to think in terms of skimping just a bit more -- but so far tarps and duvets and pepsi can stoves don't really appeal to me. Basically seeking lightweight versions of traditional gear. And of course asking the question, will I really use this? Just got my first scale and started a spread sheet.

Re: the crampons, axes, etc. Were you using the postal service a lot?

BTW, do you bring Vegemite Tubes?

Edited by backpackerchick on 10/10/2009 13:21:20 MDT.

Hartley F
(backpackerchick) - MLife

Locale: Planet Earth
Canister adapter on 10/10/2009 13:32:55 MDT Print View

This is brilliant! So you can use the puncture canisters with a screw top stove? Like the little Snow Peak titanium that folds into the little white box. Do I have that right? I am going to look for one right now and then finally go out and PLAY.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Nice Work on 10/10/2009 14:35:00 MDT Print View

Hi Hartley

> Basically seeking lightweight versions of traditional gear
With two people, a UL tent is no heavier than two tarps, bivy bags etc. We sleep under a quilt at home - what's different about using one in a tent? Pepsi can stoves ... ah well, I prefer a canister.

> Were you using the postal service a lot?
Didn't use it at all. No bounce boxes at all. No crampons either.

> Vegemite tubes?
:-) Nah, didn't bother. Went Continental.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Canister adapter on 10/10/2009 14:41:37 MDT Print View

> So you can use the puncture canisters with a screw top stove?
NO!!!
I have used the puncture canisters in the past, and I found them rather unsafe. I had one leak inside my pack for a while - I was wondering what that hissing noise behind my head was ... Stank the pack out a bit too. I won't touch them any more.

The French canisters I was using are of the 'Twist-Clik' style. The same as the screw-thread canisters in shape and size except there is a different Lindal Valve fitted: no screw-thread.

> the little Snow Peak titanium that folds into the little white box
Yep - the GST-100 (or the GS-100). The Vargo Jet-Ti is almost identical (different pot supports) and is available from the BPL shop:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/vargo_jet_ti_stove.html

Cheers

Hartley F
(backpackerchick) - MLife

Locale: Planet Earth
MacPac on 10/10/2009 14:42:33 MDT Print View

Roger:

Shocked someone suggested that your wife give up her MacPac pack for a couple pounds. Amazing to see these on baggage carousels worldwide and on the trail -- in the color schemes of 10-15 years ago.

BTW, do you know if Fairydown went out of business?

I love these brands in general (gave up on the MacPac Microlight tent -- could be a user issue -- though). I love getting questions about my Fairydown items. Fairydown sounds very funny in American. People think they are patches I sewed on my gaiters to be funny.

Edited by backpackerchick on 10/10/2009 14:51:55 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: MacPac on 10/10/2009 17:58:36 MDT Print View

Hi Hartley

Fairydown did go out of business effectively, but the brand was bought up by the same guy who has bought out the Macpac brand after the suits made a complete hash of it. You will find the brand on the Macpac web site now.

The microlight ... yeah, well, good fabric but the single long pole is hardly very stable.

The Torre - well, it isn't the bag itself my wife likes but the harness the hipbelt and back padding and shoulder straps. She agrees it is heavy. I don't think she is greatly fussed about the colour either way. It doesn't affect the load-carrying.

Cheers

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 10/10/2009 18:17:52 MDT Print View

"The microlight ... yeah, well, good fabric but the single long pole is hardly very stable."
If nothing else, the new version (in silnylon) is about 400g lighter
Franco

Hartley F
(backpackerchick) - MLife

Locale: Planet Earth
Microlight on 10/10/2009 18:33:41 MDT Print View

I gave up on it. Some pretty experienced people use this tent in some pretty iffy conditions. It DOES have a really low profile. Even I can't sit up in it. Some people cram two into it. CULT following. Franco, do you use it?

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Fairydown on 10/10/2009 19:21:08 MDT Print View

There's been a real shakedown in the NZ outdoor gear scene in the last few years. A bit of googling will reveal the tangled web:)

I still see Fairydown branded stuff in the Macpac shops. Last year I got a 9oz down jacket for NZ$ 99 and some cheap carbon fiber walking polls, which after some MYOG handles are fairly light. I always thought FD gear, especially the sleeping bags, was pretty good.

I also still have one item of gear made here in New Zealand - a big down jacket I use for round town use.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking: Four Months in Europe on 10/10/2009 21:28:27 MDT Print View

Do I use the Microlite ????
I play with a lot of tents but only use Tarptents. (well, almost)
One of them is the Not So Micro But Light ( aka Rainbow)
The Microlite feels too small for me. I am only 5'7" but my head touches the inner once it is closed up. I will not die from that but prefer some extra space.
I would buy the TT Moment now as a 3+ solo tent.

Curiously when Macpac took over Fairydown, they did not get hold of their tents (designs/patents) . Somehow all traces of them had disappeared.
Franco

Hartley F
(backpackerchick) - MLife

Locale: Planet Earth
Hubba HP on 10/10/2009 22:39:56 MDT Print View

I have a late MSR Hubba HP with very low mileage. Almost 3+ seasons? Find it sturdier than the Microlight -- with my tent skills -- it's also bigger and I can sit up in it. Not advanced enough for the tarp yet. LOL.

4 season solo? I have a Bibler I-tent. Is it really worth having a 4 season solo tent -- presumably you want to be able to hole up in there for a while.

In case you can't tell, I'm not very light yet but trying to lose weight!

Edited by backpackerchick on 10/10/2009 22:49:00 MDT.

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Microlight on 10/10/2009 23:29:11 MDT Print View

The MacPac Microlight is one of the solo tents of choice by the locals in SW Tasmania, while it has condensation problems and is not suitable for heavy snow, it can handle strong winds and heavy rain.

Tony

Willem Jongman
(willem) - F
adaptor for cannisters on 10/11/2009 04:07:24 MDT Print View

Roger, which adapter are you using to use the Camping Gaz valved cannisters on a Primus/Snowpeak etc stove? The Markill adapter that I know is listed as 75 gram. I know the Primus etc cannisters are virtually impossible to get in France. But France is so nice... The MSR multivalve stove has had a mixed reception. There is apparantly also a new Primus multistandard stove. But an adapter allows for a far wider stove choice, of course.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: adaptor for cannisters on 10/11/2009 04:46:41 MDT Print View

Hi Willem

Well ... it's one I made myself. Designing and making canister stoves from scratch seems to be my latest MYOG thing. :-) You may remember this pic appeared some time ago on one of the Forum channels:
Field test of Snow Peak 23

I took this stove to Switzerland this year for 6 weeks. It worked OK, and uses the multi-canister adaptor. There is a safety valve in the adapter on the canister which actually opens and closes the Lindal valve, and a control valve right behind the jet for instant fine control of the flame.

But the design of the stove shown here is not what I am aiming at, as it uses a Snow Peak burner. My goal is to make a remote canister liquid-feed stove entirely from raw materials. I just haven't finished refining the design yet. Mind you, I have had to learnt an awful lot about how these things work inside in the process.

Cheers
PS: I think you mean Powermax, not Primus?

Willem Jongman
(willem) - F
primus on 10/11/2009 05:05:10 MDT Print View

No I mean Primus, i.e. the normal valved cannister one finds everywhere else.

Chris Townsend
(Christownsend) - MLife

Locale: Cairngorms National Park
MSR Superfly stove on 10/11/2009 06:42:32 MDT Print View

"The MSR multivalve stove has had a mixed reception." Willem, I didn't know that! I've had an MSR Superfly for many years and it has always worked well. As it's not the lightest stove I only use it on European hikes where I can't be sure of finding Lindahl valve canisters. I last used it on the GR20 on Corsica (a highly recommended route) where Campingaz CV canisters where the only ones available.

Patagonia Community
(PatagoniaCommunity) - F
BPL Newbie on 12/28/2009 22:19:54 MST Print View

Just stumbled upon BPL and have enjoyed reading insights from folks out there. I love the "shelf-life" of forum boards--this one started in 2007--wow!