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Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Foam Vest Meets Fishnet on 02/14/2013 10:44:23 MST Print View

I, and others, have previously posted about making clothing from our closed cell foam sleeping pads. It qualifies as multiple use and the weight cost is near zero because I'm already carrying the foam pad. The big plus, however, is that closed cell foam retains most of its insulating value when wet. This is really really important to me because my clothing is usually wet from either rain or sweat. I long ago gave up trying to stay dry. I just try to stay warm.

Anyhow, I've been doing some experimenting lately and here's my current best combo of layers when wearing a foam vest:

Byrnje polypro fish net top
Lightweight stretchy nylon tricot T shirt
Foam Vest
Windbreaker or raincoat

For me the fishnet is the perfect compliment to the foam vest.

Photo

Photo

Photo

I'm going from memory here but I think the fishnet = about 5 ounces, T-Shirt = about 3 ounces and windbreaker = about 4 ounces. So this combo weighs about 12 ounces and is very warm (I count vest as zero ounces because it is also part of my sleeping pad).

J P
(jordo_99) - M

Locale: Midwest
Fishnet purpose? on 02/14/2013 11:41:52 MST Print View

Is the net shirt multipurpose? I'm just not quite sure why it's being worn as it doesn't seem like it would add much/any warmth. Maybe just to keep the cold wind breaker fabric off your skin?

The whole idea of wearing your sleeping pad is pretty cool though.

Edited by jordo_99 on 02/14/2013 11:42:29 MST.

Elliott Wolin
(ewolin) - MLife

Locale: Hampton Roads, Virginia
RE: Foam Vest Meets Fishnet on 02/14/2013 11:59:05 MST Print View

Fishnet underwear is definitely multi-purpose. I plan to use it to seine for live bait. ;-)

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Fishnet purpose? on 02/14/2013 13:23:26 MST Print View

JP,

"Is the net shirt multipurpose? I'm just not quite sure why it's being worn as it doesn't seem like it would add much/any warmth."

For the pros and cons of the fishnet I refer you to the recent article on the subject (look under the Articles heading at this website). I can't improve upon this very well thought out paper.

Personally, however, I'm finding that the fishnet is warm.....as long as it is contained within wind proof (or at least wind reducing) garments. When the fish net is combined with the nylon T shirt plus the windbreaker I feel warmer than when it is combined with only the T shirt or the windbreaker. The combo of the T shirt and the windbreaker does a good job of reducing air movement. I believe the article says that the fishnet (when contained) is as warm as a solid fabric garment.

I'm also finding that wet fishnet against my skin does not feel as cold as a wet solid fabric pullover.

"Maybe just to keep the cold wind breaker fabric off your skin?"

The fishnet does serve this purpose (plus insulating) on the arms, where there is no foam.

Daryl

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: RE: Foam Vest Meets Fishnet on 02/14/2013 13:25:23 MST Print View

Elliot,

Thanks for the tip. May save my life someday.

Daryl

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Seeing Red on 02/14/2013 14:15:11 MST Print View

For those fashion minded viewers who prefer red .....here's our lovely model Daryl showing a red version of the outfit.

Photo

Photo

Tim Anderson
(tim@bikeswitzerland.com) - F
as an added bonus... on 02/15/2013 06:13:46 MST Print View

The foam makes you look like you've been working out ;)
Could you take a picture of the vest when you lay it flat as a groundpad to give us a better idea?
Thanks,

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Foam Vest Meets Fishnet on 02/15/2013 07:54:47 MST Print View

Daryl, you're the King of UL.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: as an added bonus... on 02/15/2013 11:32:03 MST Print View

Tim,

"The foam makes you look like you've been working out"

Yes it does. I often parade around pretending I'm the Hulk when wearing it.

If ever attacked by a vicious puma(vp) it might protect me to some degree. If the vp's first attempt at evisceration gives it a mouth full of foam he/she might think I'm just a tofu human.

"Could you take a picture of the vest when you lay it flat as a groundpad to give us a better idea?"

Photos below with some clarifying comments below them.

FRONT
p

BACK
P

SPLAYED (Bambi vs Godzilla)
P

Notes
*Ignore multi colors. I've done a lot of snipping, adding, taping, etc.
*Vest is made of two pieces (front and back). I then cut the front piece down the middle. That's why it shows 3 pieces when splayed.
*I cut the front piece down the middle because it makes it easier to put the vest on. It also allows me to make the neck hole smaller than it would have to be if I pulled the vest over my bulbous head.
*You can use an existing pad as-is simply by putting a hole in the center like a poncho. The square shoulders don't fit under a windbreaker as well, however. That's why this vest has sloping shoulders and why it takes at least two pieces instead of one.
*I've tried to add short sleeves to the vest but haven't been happy with my results. *There is a lot that could be improved on the vest but it works fine even in this rough state. A hood is easy to add, for example.
*I tried some elastic cords and Velcro closures but found that I wasn't using them. *The windbreaker keeps things together pretty well.
*Adhesive backed insignia cloth and strapping tape stick to this foam well.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
As Commander Data said, on 02/15/2013 15:46:00 MST Print View

"In the event of a water landing, your sleep cushion may be used as a floatation device."

The biggest determinant of survival in a water ditching in Alaska is if you had a PFD on when you exited the plane.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: As Commander Data said, on 02/15/2013 16:32:34 MST Print View

Deleted comment. I misread the post.

I'm an idiot.

Edited by lyrad1 on 02/15/2013 21:53:04 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: As Commander Data said, on 02/15/2013 22:42:28 MST Print View

Interesting concept and nice execution of same. Personally, i think i would sweat too much with something like that--i'm not generally a heavy sweater to begin with though.

Very remotely and vaguely related to this general concept, is I've been toying with the idea of using knitted/woven polypro not as a "wicking" baselayer, but as a lightweight midlayer instead (if actually needed).

A few reasons, it's very lightweight but quite warm for it's weight, but still breathes, and it won't stink as much as a midlayer since the sweat will be somewhat filtered by the baselayer (as far as oils go, which seems to be more the issue with stink and synthetic). It absorbs so, so, so very little moisture and if not too thick, will dry out really fast. All combined, seems like a win win to me.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: As Commander Data said, on 02/15/2013 23:23:36 MST Print View

Daryl,

I understand the need to accommodate a head that is larger than your neck. But, looking at how the foam pad splays out during the night, what if you don't cut the sternum-to-belly-button cut in the foam? But instead cut some "fingers" around the neck so that (1), they flare out of the way when you don it or take it off but (2) provide insulation as a vest and padding as a sleep pad.

As far as Justin's concern about sweating: I'd imagine that the outer windbreaker is a huge factor in retaining or shedding heat. Worn just as a vest, it would add some warmth, but only with the windbreaker does the assembly become a jacket.

My joke about a PFD was somewhat serious. It doesn't come up much for most BPers, but in a paddle raft, canoe, or potentially on a charter flight to a fly-in trip, the safety advantage of having, essentially, a personal-floatation device on at all times, is HUGE. Flying with the USFS in SE Alaska, it was required to wear an inflatable life jacket in any plane without two engines, two pilots, flying IFR. i.e. you wore a PFD for every trip in Alaska until you got back on a 737.

Edited to add: I'm having images of cops wearing "bullet-proof" vests. Because those are somewhat bulky and planar but have great velcro closures to seal them together. It makes me wonder what the thinnest, lightest velcro-like material is and could you use it to seal up the side so (1) you'd be even warmer and (2) it would have more warmth as a vest.

I've been tempted to try one of these for a year now. This might motivate me to try my own version. Thanks, Daryl, for the great post.

Edited by DavidinKenai on 02/15/2013 23:27:28 MST.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Re: As Commander Data said, on 02/16/2013 10:25:42 MST Print View

Justin,

"Personally, i think i would sweat too much with something like that--i'm not generally a heavy sweater to begin with though."

You may be right on the "sweat too much" issue for your use. If you are not a heavy sweater you probably are able to stay reasonably dry and warm with conventional gear. I can't so the foam offers me some hope of at least staying relatively warm. For several years now I have been using a full blown float coat made of foam. Works wonderfully for me but it weighs about 1.5 pounds. I'm trying to replicate its function at a lighter weight so I've been experimenting with myog foam clothing.

" I've been toying with the idea of using knitted/woven polypro not as a "wicking" baselayer, but as a lightweight midlayer instead (if actually needed)."

I've used the polypro over the fishnet. Is that what you are suggesting? Works well for me. The polypro would take the place of the blue nylon T shirt in the photos. It would be a bit heavier than the T shirt but also warmer.

Daryl

Edited by lyrad1 on 02/16/2013 11:14:54 MST.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Re: Re: As Commander Data said, on 02/16/2013 12:07:31 MST Print View

David,

"cut some "fingers" around the neck"

Like in the photos below? It does address the bulbous head problem and was comfortable to wear. I also like the jester look it gives me.

p

p

"the foam pad splays out during the night"
I sleep upon the pad without splaying it so I get a double pad under me in this area. So 1/4" foam vest gives 1/2" under me; 3/8" foam vest gives 3/4" under me, etc.

The pad in the attached "jester" photos just rolls out like a normal pad. But notice the boxy shoulders. They make it hard pull a windbreaker over them. With thinner, flexible foam vests (e.g. 1/8" thick) it isn't much of a problem but it is with the thicker/stiffer stuff. The sloped shoulders on the vest in my original post address this problem. The splayed out shape of the vest is a by product of the sloped shoulders.

"what if you don't cut the sternum-to-belly-button cut in the foam?"
I've tried it with and without the sternum surgery. Both work. The sliced sternum model is easier to get on and off and the flexibility of the separate front pieces makes it feel more comfortable when wearing it. The front opening is also nice for venting if I get too warm. The sloped shoulder model cannot be splayed without the sternum slice and with the sternum slice it splays out in that Y like shape.

"I'd imagine that the outer windbreaker is a huge factor in retaining or shedding heat. Worn just as a vest, it would add some warmth, but only with the windbreaker does the assembly become a jacket."
I agree. The open design of the slit sternum model, in particular, results in almost no warmth if worn alone. The warmth just blows away. Neither the fishnet nor the foam vest can retain much warmth without being covered/contained.

The float coats I'm been wearing, however, work wonderfully without anything else. So the 1.5 pound float coat can replace base layer, insulation layer and outer layer (including raincoat). These 3 replaced layers could easily add up to 1.5 pounds. I'd still like to reduce the weight of the float coat or its alternative, however.

"It makes me wonder what the thinnest, lightest velcro-like material is and could you use it to seal up the side so (1) you'd be even warmer and (2) it would have more warmth as a vest."
I agree. I've experimented with various options in this area.....without success. Everything I've tried turns out to be more trouble than its worth, uncomfortable or too restrictive to venting. I'm not a very good tailor. I know there is a better way to do this.

Thanks for the ideas,

Daryl

Edited by lyrad1 on 02/16/2013 12:14:43 MST.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Foam Vest Meets Fishnet on 02/16/2013 13:31:45 MST Print View

Photos below show the modified float coat I currently use. I wear it and use it as a sleeping pad. I shortened the sleeves (they were too tight) and tore out the nylon shell on the inside (to save weight). My goal with the vests and other experiments has been to replace this 1.5 pound float coat with something lighter. I'm making progress but there is a lot of room for improvement.


z

z

z

z

d k
(dkramalc) - MLife
Re: Re: Foam Vest Meets Fishnet on 02/16/2013 14:23:56 MST Print View

Perhaps you could incorporate a slit from the tip of the shoulder in towards the neck of the jester outfit, overlapping and somehow fastening down to provide the contour you need there?

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Re: Foam Vest Meets Fishnet on 02/16/2013 14:57:40 MST Print View

dk,

I like your idea and will give it a try.

Thanks,

Daryl .

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
dk shoulder idea on 02/17/2013 09:13:20 MST Print View

dk

Here's a photo of your overlapping shoulder piece suggestion. It was very easy to try. Thanks for the suggestion. Gives me one more trick to use in the development of this very attractive garment.

x

Notes
* I used 1/8" thick foam in this test
* If used in a final product I'd use Velcro at the outer edge of the shoulders so I could unhook things and lay the pad flat for sleeping
* Overlapping the shoulder pieces puts a double layer of foam in a good position (think attic) to conserve heat.

Edited by lyrad1 on 02/17/2013 13:10:14 MST.

d k
(dkramalc) - MLife
Re: dk shoulder idea on 02/17/2013 13:07:57 MST Print View

I'm glad to hear that it has promise! I always enjoy reading about your MYOG stuff.