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Ethics/Morality... Or Pay Pal Gift???
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And E
(LunchANDYnner) - F

Locale: Pacific Northwest
man... on 02/07/2013 23:10:34 MST Print View

Don't know why the OP had to go flaming right off the bat. Nobody is forcing anybody to pay anything. If one is not OK with the terms of the sale, then don't buy... Or, as Konrad said, the buyer can pay as merchandise and add in the 3.4% + $0.50 themselves. Plus, a Life Member with 1800+ posts is highly unlikely to rip you off....

Chris Valery
(fortran42) - F

Locale: Western North Carolina
Paypal Gift on 02/08/2013 05:21:37 MST Print View

As someone who has had to go thru the paypal buyer claims process Several Times on ebay due to seller failing to ship/item lost,misrepresented..and Yes it is a long process..However I have ALWAYS got my money back. The paypal Gift option limits the buyers ability to get a refund should a deal sour. HammockForums For Sale rules strictly Prohibit the use of "Paypal Gift Option" in any for sale threads for the exact reason i mentioned above. The chances of having to file a paypal claim for an item on this forum is Quite Remote i believe, However, you should not limit your options as a buyer.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Paypal Gift on 02/08/2013 10:42:30 MST Print View

I have great confidence in Konrad as a seller and no moral issues using the PayPal gift option--- it is a service they offer. You get what you pay for.

BUT, the goods option is the way to go for the seller as well as the buyer. I had a buyer dispute a credit card charge four months after the purchase and PayPal covered me as the seller. I have had them cover me as a buyer several times. There are other advantages, particularly with mailing items, with options that are not available at the USPS web site. I encourage all participants to use the goods option.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Paypal Gift on 02/08/2013 12:22:54 MST Print View

Good points, Dale. Now, wouldn't it be nice if OP (M J) had written it this way -- instead of flaming Konrad right off the bat?

Dave -
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Up there
Re: Re: Paypal Gift on 02/08/2013 12:38:01 MST Print View

I see this as a situation where the OP was venting an opinion. Could it have been better presented? Maybe.

But the witch hunt after the fact and the mob mentality to belittle him was sobering. Konrad responded and rightfully so. Apart from Dale's recent post, all the other posts were unnecessarily spewed*.

* (for Doug)

Edited by FamilyGuy on 02/08/2013 13:14:40 MST.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Paypal Gift on 02/08/2013 13:15:48 MST Print View

Looks like the Mods have read through this thread. Couple of posts missing.

Dave, I don't know when you read through the thread, but the OP flat out started calling people not nice names.

Edited by T.L. on 02/08/2013 13:28:42 MST.

Dave -
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Up there
Re: Re: Re: Re: Paypal Gift on 02/08/2013 13:51:02 MST Print View

There definitely were some edited posts so I may have missed the name calling. But whatever the Mods left here in place looks like a mob righting the situation. Maybe it would be best for the Mods to just remove the thread.

(OBOZ) - F

Agreed on 02/08/2013 14:21:57 MST Print View

"There definitely were some edited posts so I may have missed the name calling. But whatever the Mods left here in place looks like a mob righting the situation. Maybe it would be best for the Mods to just remove the thread."

Agreed! Grown men having a pissing contest to for all to see isn't good for the community.

Boils down to,to each their lock or delete.

John Smith
(jcar3305) - F

Locale: East of Cascades
Futher insights on 02/08/2013 19:02:21 MST Print View

MJ wrote me today:

"I am TOTALLY creeped out by ur "Percentages"Of me... It borders on STALKER CREEPY that you follow me to WhiteBlaze, and again CREEPY... I see tho you failed, pathetically, to point this out:
I'm all About PIF brother, and that's a small example... I guess I need 1800+ posts before you know me... MJ
BTW.... PM sent cuz I didn't want to embarrass you on BPL... Yet..."

So I have replied below:

I apologize for appearing creepy to you. That was not intended. I have never gone to White Blaze but you negatively referenced them in one of your earliest posts on BPL so I included that. The link you provided certainly shows another side to your character. Kudos to you.

I did intend to point out that by an large your posts appeared to be about buying and selling and editorial comments about things that bothered you. I myself spend most of my time on BPL looking for deals and someday I plan on selling here as well. I also have never had an issue with people pointing out conflicts of interest or the inherent inconsistencies within any on-line group I have ever been involved in. However, I draw the line at name calling and bullying. I simply feel that someone needs to stand up to all forms of bullying. Since i witnessed it, I will do something about it. Whether that is good or bad, that is how I was raised. I do hope you understand.

If you want to attempt to embarrass me, feel free to do so. I am far from perfect and can always use constructive criticism so I can improve. I know I often type first and think later. In the past when I was tight on funds I sometimes would take a day or two longer than planned to pay with a money order. Sometimes I even took an extra long time to respond to an e-mail. So I know I need to improve. I appreciate your efforts to assist me on this path.

I certainly wish you the best and look forward to future correspondence with you whether public or private.

john the xcar

NW Hiker
(king2005ify) - M
Intent? on 02/08/2013 22:16:11 MST Print View

Bottom line is PayPal is against "gift" payments for goods...I did a couple of these transactions on this site and quickly received a message saying that I was in violation of their policies and that if I was caught doing it again my account would be shut down. They knew that I was buying something, and did not like it :} Has anyone else received this?

To ask for a "gift" payment is not the intention of Paypal's payment program, and while it is nice to avoid fees, it's really not ethical. It's not just about the protection, I feel it is more about using a companies' services and trying to scam them by portraying it as something else.

Just my opinion, and sorry for adding to this thread and making it go on!

PS just Google it and you'll find a (*&^load of threads saying it's not that cool:

Joe L
(heyyou) - MLife

Locale: Cutting brush off of the Arizona Tr
buyer use PP fee calculator on 02/09/2013 19:43:42 MST Print View

Any buyer can use a PP fee calculator to determine how much to send to someone who does not want to pay PP.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Intent? on 02/10/2013 16:23:35 MST Print View

I did a search and could not find anything from the PayPal website -- just opinions on message boards.

I did find a Terms of Service document but it was dated 2003, and I cannot locate from the home page of PayPal.

I tried finding something regarding the gift issue discussed in this thread. Couldn't find anything.

Seems that if PayPal does not want anyone to sell items and use the Gift option, they should make the policy easy to locate.

If the policy is in place, that is you cannot sell items using the Gift option; then there is no debate, IMO.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: @Tarptent
Ethics/Morality... Or Pay Pal Gift??? on 02/11/2013 02:43:02 MST Print View

I had a look at the link (google search) posted by NW Hiker and all I could find is exactly what many have stated here.That is if you use the friends/relatives option you have no protection at all from Pay Pal...BUT WE KNOW THAT.
No hints whatsoever that is against the rules or unethical.

Dena Kelley

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
RE "Ethics/Morality... Or Pay Pal Gift???" on 02/11/2013 12:24:24 MST Print View

I find it upsetting that someone would call someone out personally and imply theft over the simple terms of the sale. The sellers terms can be accepted or rejected by a potential buyer...period. This doesn't meet the definition of "theft" and frankly I find it appalling that someone would impugn another person's integrity with no just cause.

In the past, if I had an issue with a seller's terms, I have asked them if they would negotiate. In my case, that's typically because their terms says they will ship "CONUS Only" and since I'm in Alaska if I want the item I will ask the seller if they will sell to me in Alaska if I pay more in shipping. Etc.

It's standard practice on this forum and every other in which I've engaged in gear purchases for the the seller to ask the buyer to pay the fees on PayPal or to increase the sale price of the item to make up for the fees.

Gary Dunckel
(Zia-Grill-Guy) - MLife

Locale: Boulder
Calculating PP fees on 02/11/2013 12:49:16 MST Print View

It seems consistent that the PP fees I pay are 2.9% of the purchase, plus a flat $0.30. So when someone purchases $100 of my Zia products, PayPal deducts $2.90 + .30 = $3.20. For some of my international customers, that fee goes up slightly (not sure why).

My vote on this matter is for the seller to factor in the PP fees when he/she states the asking price. That way, everyone is protected if something goes awry.

John Ebner

Locale: Big Thicket
PayPal Gift Option on 02/11/2013 16:18:02 MST Print View

When I first saw this thread (shortly after it had been started) I was taken back by what the OP was doing. It was totally uncalled for in my opinion and I see it as an example of what is wrong in so many places nowadays. It appears to me that what we had here was a reputable man trying to sell some of his gear for whatever reasons. He was minding his own business, he wasn't bothering anyone and he wasn't violating any rules. Then along comes someone that doesn't like what they see and they decide to stir up a bunch of crap and make a bunch of accusations. It's situations like this that wind up infringing on others by causing unneeded rule changes or implementation of new rules.

I read things earlier in the thread that lead me to believe that this dispute would be resolved rather quickly but I haven't really seen anything come of the supposed contacts with PayPal or any of the research in their policies. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with using the gift option and I always offer that option when I sell here. When I saw this thread still going today I thought I would take the time to call PayPal and see what they had to say.

I called PayPal and spoke with a gentleman from Product and Services. I explained the situation and asked if any of PayPal's policies were being violated by using the "Gift" option to purchase something from someone. I also explained that the differences in PayPal's protection was understood when using the different "Send Money" options. His response was that they preferred that the "Purchase" option was used so as to avoid any possible trouble and to help keep people from trying to come back on PayPal if something went bad with a transaction (I'm sure making money is involved there too but it wasn't mentioned). He went on to say that the gift option could be used to pay for something and that nothing was going to happen to anyone for using that option and that, no, PayPal was not going to come after anyone, or their account, for doing it. He also said that it was not violating any of their policies unless some kind of fraud was going on at the same time.

So it looks like the OP wound up getting his panties in a wad over nothing after all. If he had just used a little of his time and energy to look into what he perceived as being so wrong and evil he would have discovered that he was wrong. Instead he pushed blindly forward with absolutely no use of tact and made a fool of himself. Nice job.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: PayPal Gift Option on 02/11/2013 16:51:19 MST Print View

Well the OP is a long-time member of 6 months, and almost all his posts are Gear Swap related.

Eric Johnson
(unimog) - MLife

Locale: Utah
Re: PayPal Gift Option on 02/11/2013 17:08:37 MST Print View

Well there you have it.

I, too, am appalled at the nature of the accusation and I don't even know the history of the seller. The accusation was simply without foundation.

I'm pretty new around here, but not new to ecommerce or life, for that matter. I have always found it better to start out from a position of trust until that is broken. I know there are others who want the government/web site admins/whoever else to put some rules in place to protect them. I, for one, do not want/need to be protected by force. I prefer to do that by choice, when I deem it desirable. I'm perfectly happy with the buyer and seller agreeing to their own terms and living with the consequences.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Thank you on 02/11/2013 17:56:22 MST Print View


Thank you for taking the time to do what probably should have been the first, if not most logical, step towards getting a clear cut answer on the issue. Now that we've heard from the source, and there doesn't seem to be much room for interpretation, I hope we can all move on--worry free--and remain eager to "gift" some gear :)


Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/11/2013 17:58:48 MST.

John Ebner

Locale: Big Thicket
Re: Thank you on 02/11/2013 20:02:37 MST Print View

No problem Konrad. It was an ugly thing to watch. I agree with you, hopefully this thing will die now and we can move on.