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Ethics/Morality... Or Pay Pal Gift???
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Locale: Somewhere out hiking!!!
Ethics/Morality... Or Pay Pal Gift??? on 02/07/2013 12:38:01 MST Print View

Not a gift... To blatantly say I want to steal from Pay Pal is very offensive to me... I have sold things here, bought things here, and even tho it said "Gift" I still paid the fees and had it shippied normally... You realize if you sent a "Gift" payment, the buyer has NO recourse if said "Gift" doesn't arrive, not as described, etc... I don't get it... Maybe I need to lower the bar... BTW... That Post is from a MLife...

First, 10 to 1, my PM's have been understanding of the Ethics/Morality of the OP... Also 10 to 1 were the objections for "calling out" Konrad... We are not on the playground, no "calling out" was done... I used his ad as an example based on the fact he felt it necessary to print in bold letters, to "Gift" him, even tho he was selling "goods or services"... My bad... But still... OP...

Edited by mj451at2 on 02/08/2013 06:24:08 MST.

Cole Crawford
(CDC43339) - F

Locale: Omaha
Move thread on 02/07/2013 13:08:17 MST Print View

Though the point is valid and probably warrants discussion, Gear Swap isn't the place for it. I'd suggest moving the thread to Chaff, Gear Talk, or Philosophy.

(onthecouchagain) - MLife

Locale: Sunny SoCal
come on now... on 02/07/2013 13:27:56 MST Print View

Konrad is a stand up guy in every regard. If you don't like the terms, look elsewhere- end of story. Putting him on blast mode is not cool; better handled before you accepted the auction terms.


Hk Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: Ethics/Morality... Or Pay Pal Gift??? on 02/07/2013 13:38:49 MST Print View

Not sure what the problem is. Looks like Konrad is only trying to keep the price down for prospective buyers, .. not like he will leave the country with $200 or so bucks. There's probably a way to track the actual shipment and delivery of the snowshoes.

Add Thus, I don't see a problem if keeping it BPL.

Edited by hknewman on 02/07/2013 15:02:44 MST.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Ethics/Morality... Or Pay Pal Gift??? on 02/07/2013 13:38:59 MST Print View

Yeah, you should lower the bar, or at least have had the decency to PM me.

The reason why I ask people to give me a fee-less payment, is so I can pass on the savings to my buyers. I could have just as easily jacked up the price by $10 and never mentioned a fee-less payment.

Also, note that I've listed the friends and family many here, I am indeed a friend. Yes, it's a bit of an interpretation, but just like you, I too am allowed my opinion.

In re your last part, "You realize if you sent a "Gift" payment, the buyer has NO recourse if said "Gift" doesn't arrive, not as described, etc..."

If you've been here long enough, you'd know that's not really an issue with handling transactions with me...just saying.

Michael Ray
it's not about ethics for me.. on 02/07/2013 13:39:15 MST Print View

Read through the Paypal T&C's .. if you pay for goods using fee-free methods (i.e. "gift") then you lose all buy protection in the event a deal goes sour. 3% is such a nominal amount that I simply include it in my asking price when selling, and don't hesitate to add it when I'm buying - it's worth the peace of mind.

remember.. $3 for every $100 worth of goods.

Daniel Russell

Locale: Creation
+1 to Konrad on 02/07/2013 13:45:03 MST Print View

Certain members, like Konrad, have gained some respect around the forum and are trustworthy (in my opinion). He doesn't deserve to be called out. He recently sent me a $70 payment, as gift, for some thru-hiker down. He basically paid for my word, which quite a few people do around here. If you don't keep your word, people will find out and you will be exiled from purchasing/selling. However, I assume he is not saying that you HAVE to pay this way. He is basically stating that he doesn't want incur fees on this transaction and that YOU have to pay the fees (goods transaction) or use the personal/gift option.

Paypal charges 3% on every goods purchase to the seller, not the buyer. So all you have to do is calculate the total price and multiply it by .03, in this case being almost $5 on a $165 item.

I sell things from time to time and wish people would understand that the SELLER, not the buyer, takes a considerable hit in paypal fees. I generally pay as gift on small ticket items and pay the 3% extra in fees on higher ticket items. Around here, there aren't rules against paying with the gift option, but over at they have explicit rules against gift payment.

In the future, if you're skeptical of buying from someone, I suggest doing some research about their activity in the forum before putting someone on blast.

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
red herring on 02/07/2013 13:47:56 MST Print View

This topic has been beaten to death on the forums before. But I have to ask, to all you guys that proclaim about the loss of buyer protection if you use a personal option.... HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY GONE THROUGH A PAYPAL DISPUTE?

I have, and I can tell you paypal buyer protection is a hoax. This is what get ripped wait the requisite amount of days before you can open a dispute against the seller, you eventually win your dispute case, paypal attempts to disgorge your misappropriated funds, BUT WAIT! the seller already cashed out all your money, transferred it to his bank account and you are left with no recourse. Paypal doesn't have the authority to garnish a seller's bank account, wages, etc, and it's up to them whether they want to refund you based on their own accounts. I've lost hundreds of dollars on ebay being ripped off this way.

And yes, on high ticket items, I do provide USPS tracking as proof of shipment (which is all paypal generally requires of me, as a seller, to win a dispute about whether items were ever shipped.)

These are the current paypal fees 3.4% on the total sale amount plus a fixed fee of $0.50 per transaction. I can easily jack up the price for you accordingly if you desire the false sense of security of "buyer protection"


Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/07/2013 13:59:48 MST.

Jared Baker
(simply_light) - MLife

Locale: Midwest, US
Paypal Disputes on 02/07/2013 14:14:04 MST Print View

While I cannot speak to non-ebay related paypal disputes (as I have not had to file any), every time I have filed a claim against a bad ebay seller, I've won the case and gotten my funds back.

As far as paying the fees, if a seller does not specifically mention sending it one way or another, I would assume they are willing to pay the fees if the buyer sends the money standard. If they say they want the money sent as a gift, I will still pay the fees if I am worried about the value of the item. (Never had a problem yet, so again I cannot vouch for paypal's handling a non-ebay dispute.)

If it is a PIF, I send it gift.

Brandon Campbell
(bignlittle) - F

Locale: Southeastern Indiana
Solution. on 02/07/2013 14:27:21 MST Print View

The solution to this is really pretty simple. Just say in your for sale thread that the buyer can subtract 3 percent from the price is they wish to pay as gift.

Chris Lacey
paypal on 02/07/2013 14:34:54 MST Print View

I've bought a bunch of stuff from this forum from many different people. Nearly every seller here asks for the gift option.

Every single transaction has been a no-fee paypal gift payment and every single transaction has been flawless. This site has the most dependable "swap" section I have ever used.

And I don't think it is cheating paypal. The paypal fee buys their backup/support for a bad transaction. No fee = no paypal support. The rules are theirs.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: Mind your own business
PayPal personal on 02/07/2013 14:36:23 MST Print View

One of the main reasons folk on Bpl use Personal Payments is to get around the paypal handling fee, if a credit card is involved someone needs to eat the fees (whether buyer or seller) if the cash comes from a bank account or existing PayPal balance (which most folks on Bpl use).

All my adverts for selling kit mention I prefer paypal personal payments, if someone contacts me saying they don't want to go down that route we would work something out.

I have been stung twice on eBay in the last 10 years but never on Bpl, also I send all items with delivery confirmation and insurance if its a high value item.

pay on 02/07/2013 14:38:30 MST Print View

If you have a problem with it, by all means pay the fees yourself, just see that the seller gets the intended amt.

pretty darn simple.

I dont think theres a lot of scammers on BPL.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: Mind your own business
Re: PayPal personal on 02/07/2013 14:39:22 MST Print View

Oh, and if I don't know the buyer/seller I look at their BPL history.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: PayPal personal on 02/07/2013 14:41:09 MST Print View

I only waive the paypal fee if the buyer has a sister in my age range who likes old, fat guys with no hair and lives within driving distance of me, or if they'll send me a prepaid gift card for a 900-number of my choice, or a Spiderman comic book, or sometimes dark chocolate. Can't get the twinkies anymore, that sucks.

Otherwise they pay the fee. Has worked for me so far. Of course, I should have explicitly stated that the 900-number gift card was for more than 2 minutes, but hey, live and learn.

Edited by idester on 02/07/2013 14:41:44 MST.

(onthecouchagain) - MLife

Locale: Sunny SoCal
FS: Twinkie on 02/07/2013 14:50:11 MST Print View


O'h, will not ship to MidAtantic and buyer pays PayPal, gas, emotional fees from Twinkie separtion anxiety..

sorry Douglas

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: Mind your own business
PayPal earning interest on 02/07/2013 14:50:16 MST Print View

Think of the amount of cash Paypal earns from the Transaction balances that sit in folks accounts.

I really hate PayPal as the 2 times I have moved country in the last 5 years (from Ireland to Belgium to the Us) the feckers have made me open a new account.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: FS: Twinkie on 02/07/2013 14:53:14 MST Print View

You're a cruel man, Mr. Satterberg.....

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Sheesh on 02/07/2013 15:06:55 MST Print View

Post #19

Konrad, FTW!

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
20! on 02/07/2013 15:52:29 MST Print View

You were luckier than me, or your seller still had money in his account. Here's what I got last time I filed a complaint when my ebay item did not show up.

This is from a paypal email (with some of my emphasis added):

"Transaction Amount: -$117.00 USD
Case Number: PP-051-376-983
Seller's Name: (removed)
Seller's Email: (removed)

We have determined that the seller is at fault in this matter but regret to
inform you that we were unable to recover any funds from the seller's
account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery of funds
associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.

If this transaction took place on eBay, we encourage you to contact eBay.
If the transaction was for an amount greater than $25.00 USD, you may
qualify for partial reimbursement under eBay's Standard Purchase Protection
Program. If this transaction took place on another auction site, we
encourage you to contact that site to see if they offer insurance or
dispute resolution.

Thank you for your cooperation and we apologize for any inconvenience this
situation may have caused. Please know that we will make our best effort to
recover the funds in question if they become available in the seller's
account in the future
. Please also be assured that we will take appropriate
action against the seller. Such action may include issuing a warning, a
temporary restriction, or terminating the account.

Seriously Paypal? you're gonna issue them a warning? WOW, good on you.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 02/07/2013 15:54:19 MST.