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Four Point Five Pounds.
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Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Weight and Balance on 02/07/2013 19:41:12 MST Print View

Craig I have never done the SHR but here are a few thoughts.

Normally I'm inclined to say that extra weight for luxuries is worth it on a long hike. However I think your cases is special due to the ruggedness of the SHR. You don't want to rock scramble with a heavy pack and more importantly you don't want a tall or bulky pack throwing you off balance.

If I was going on the SHR my goal would be to have my load small enough that the pack did not extend above my shoulders before reaching major rock scrambling sections. I'd focus on the bulk first and make weight a secondary consideration.

How about a Prolite in size short as a compromise pad and sewing a bug net skirt onto the mid as a compromise between a tarp and tent? I might forget cooking altogether and eat cold food (unless coffee is a big deal to you).

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Possible SHR Gear List on 02/07/2013 20:12:40 MST Print View

OK, here's a list that I think splits the difference between comfort and light weight. I think I'm only about 2 pounds heavier than Skurka's SHR list here.
The only item I do not currently own is the Terra Nova Laser.
I also will likely replace the Jam2 with an MYOG version which should be a bit lighter.
This list, however, does not include a CAMP XLA 210 ice axe (7 ounces) and CAMP XLA 210 aluminum crampons (21 ounces).

Yeah...I've been on the computer a lot lately....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ar?id=tExLl3NfPhvZVZC-E7y0Q5A.17593462606007845875.1075247181427098203&action=1&tile=0&rpert=20&srow=0&erow=96&scol=0&ecol=5&fprt=false&tfe=yn_688

Edited by xnomanx on 02/07/2013 20:19:41 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: kit on 02/07/2013 20:15:33 MST Print View

"I'll likely be going in late June/early July, so I fully expect to be using crampons and an axe, especially early morning when everything's still solid. Thought it's likely faster than talus hiking madness, I don't like the idea of goofing around in spikes with extra weight on my back either. These are the factors that make me second guess the other strategy and want to go as light as possible."

While we're on the subject of going in early, let me toss another contingency into the discussion: If next year turns out to be another low snow year, there is a good chance that you will be hiking over talus covered by rotten snow in late June/early July. This is particularly true on north facing slopes. This greatly increases the chance of a breakthrough with potentially serious consequences, particularly if you are traveling solo. Some of that talus is monstrous, and punching thru would probably lead to serious injury. A possible way to gauge conditions would be to head in over Piute Pass a week or so before your intended departure and check out conditions on the north side of Snow Tongue Pass. The talus there is quite rugged, and would give you a good idea of conditions at that time of year. This is a trip you could do in one day and might be well worth the effort.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: SHR on 02/07/2013 20:18:50 MST Print View

"Usually I agree with Tom but this time I will offer a counterpoint. On the high route I would go as light as possible without going, as skurka said stupid light."

Your point is well taken, Greg. It's an interesting set of trade offs. In the event, it looks like Craig has already made good progress on having his cake and eating it, too. ;0)

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Possible SHR list on 02/07/2013 20:20:42 MST Print View

I can't see your list because I don't have a google account and don't really want to have one, but sounds like you're on the right track.

Why the Terra Nova Laser? I'm guessing you don't want a tent not a tarp and bivy/bug net combo? Price wise that might not be terribly different but I would think a tarp would give you more elbow room. Could be wrong though.

Edited by Cameron on 02/07/2013 20:22:16 MST.

Bill Segraves
(sbill9000) - F - M
Re: Four Point Five Pounds. on 02/07/2013 20:22:51 MST Print View

It's an interesting (and sometimes amusing) question as to how much extra weight it takes to *really* matter. I sometimes find myself wondering whether extra ounces really warrant so much attention (particularly when packweights approach nice round numbers), but generally speaking, I'd say 4 1/2 lbs does make an appreciable difference, at least to me, in almost any total pack weight between 5 pounds and ~ 40.

That's not to say I don't sometimes choose to carry that extra for various kinds of trips. If I'm planning to travel 10 miles/day and spend a lot of time in camp with potentially some lousy weather, I'm bringing the roomy weatherproof tent and some stuff to do in it. If 20 miles/day or more will let me get some cool places and the weather's likely to be decent, I'm going to strip things down to the minimum that's safe. For SHR, several of my choices might be different from yours (I'll probably go frameless pack, mid, foam pad, cookless, while carrying other stuff you won't), but I expect we'd agree on a core guiding principle: neither good sleep nor a comfortable pack are luxuries.

Cheers,

Bill

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: SHR on 02/07/2013 20:23:26 MST Print View

Punching through rotten snow on top of huge talus...You know how to cheer a guy up Tom.

I've always thought that slowly freezing to death with a broken leg while wedged at the bottom of a hole would be a cool way to go. And of course the PLB is in the pack pocket jammed behind you that you can't reach...

Just sitting down there, looking up and watching the sun go by...

_____________________________________

@Luke
I've had my eye on that tent for a while, I'm sure there are other comparable, but it looks pretty good to me for 2 lbs.
My other option would be a Solomid. But I don't really carry trekking poles anymore. A Solomid or tarp+bivy+poles weighs about as much as a Laser alone.
As I said before, I've had some bad trips above treeline in the Sierra with tarps and bivies. I want four walls from now on.

Edited by xnomanx on 02/07/2013 20:31:20 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: SHR on 02/07/2013 20:41:07 MST Print View

"You know how to cheer a guy up Tom."

An unfortunate side effect of reading "The Last Summer". ;)

"Just sitting down there, looking up and watching the sun go by..."

Thru red shades after you run out of hydrocodone. :(

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: SHR on 02/07/2013 20:45:06 MST Print View

"As I said before, I've had some bad trips above treeline in the Sierra with tarps and bivies. I want four walls from now on."

Ah. Never mind then.... ;-)

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Stupid Light? on 02/07/2013 22:00:43 MST Print View

Wasn't this one of Andrew's stupid light trips? :)

Okay the weight is relative...

I have done a few trips with Craig. He is a lot bigger than me. Not fat; he is taller and has bigger muscles. His clothes are bigger, his shoes are bigger, his sleeping bag is longer, and his shelter is longer. He need to eat more food than me.

The other thing is that he is much stronger than I am. What adding 4.5 lbs feels to me, would feel like adding 9 lbs for Craig. Don't know if that sentence makes sense.

I can safely do difficult trips with some pretty light gear. Craig has been on a couple. Being uncomfortable for a day of two is not too bad... but for a week or two it gets old. Also, if my total pack weight is going to be much over 15 lbs on average, I am going to carry a framed pack. I have done the other route. A framed pack makes a BIG difference. Especially when doing a lot of cross country.

I vote for the right gear for the terrain and conditions. Once you have selected your gear, then go weigh it. And what it weighs, is what is weighs. The only thing is does is lets you publish a gear list.

Of course you can go lighter with similar gear if you want to invest in the newest, lightest, and supposedly greatest, which may often cost $50 per ounce or more.

Steve S
(idahosteve) - F

Locale: Idaho
Stupid Light, stupid heavy; 4.5lbs ... and the SHR on 02/08/2013 00:34:54 MST Print View

Its been two summers since I did a long section of the SHR. My training and prep, gear selection, food prep, and actual experience after coming back were quite a bit different than from my original expectations.Imagine that!
Here's a baseline (in general)of what I brought and what I'd do differently next time: My goal was 14 days at 14 miles a day. Thats actually pretty reasonable for a fit person. I'm over 50 and even when it was hard, that was very doable. Terrain wasn't anything more or less difficult than any of the other miles I've done off trail in other alpine settings. Route finding was a lot more serious because of the sheer scope of the distance. My base weight was 11.8 with a small solo bear can, a couple of extra clothing pieces,digital voice recorder, and some fishing gear. 27.8 lbs trail weight at Roads End, with 2 liters of water and food for 8 days at the start. Comfy shelter, warm bag, nice pad. It was only "heavy" for a day or two, and after I got up out of Kings Canyon, water was everywhere so that weight went away quickly. Conditions and timing didn't work out and before my resupply in Mammoth I had to end around a section and call it quits, head home after 160 miles and 8 days of hiking.

4.5lbs is just a number. It needs to be in context. If you add that to an 8lb base, yes its huge. But if you add it to an already existing 30lb pack, quite frankly, so what?

If you plan on cruising the SHR in any kind of fast pace, rest will be one of your most important tools. You can't recover if you don't sleep well, or eat properly. Hence the whole UL mindset of a series of systems comes into play. But what is more important? the chicken or the egg? Your sleep system is not any more important than your cooking system is not any more important than your clothing system is not anymore important et al..... Don't overthink or provide imbalance within your systems and expect high end results.

With that in mind, I'd throw out one more intangible. The route. Its not something that you are going to go out and "do"(conquer). I made that mistake. And because of that mindset I missed out on some really spectacular sections because I had to make miles. I took one of the coolest routes in the land and corrupted it to fit into "my" timeline, and now I regret that immeasurabley..... My two cents, be very fit, go light, go prepared, and spend whatever time you have available on the route, and wherever you end up when the bell sounds to go home, call it good. Not finishing the entire route does not mean you have failed or come up short! It just means thats all the time you had to spend on this trip. Its not going anywhere after you leave it. The very accomplished alpine climber Marc Twight once told me when we were preparig for a Denali climb that the most important advice he could give was to be willing to "fail" on any given route. He said that too many people were unwilling to learn what it takes to succeed, and that sometimes in order to succeed, we have to be willing to fail. Go try it one way, if it doesn't work, go try it another way.

Wish you all the best, and if you have any questions I can help with, drop me a line!

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Wise words on 02/08/2013 05:56:25 MST Print View

"With that in mind, I'd throw out one more intangible. The route. Its not something that you are going to go out and "do"(conquer). I made that mistake. And because of that mindset I missed out on some really spectacular sections because I had to make miles. I took one of the coolest routes in the land and corrupted it to fit into "my" timeline, and now I regret that immeasurabley..... My two cents, be very fit, go light, go prepared, and spend whatever time you have available on the route, and wherever you end up when the bell sounds to go home, call it good. Not finishing the entire route does not mean you have failed or come up short! It just means thats all the time you had to spend on this trip. Its not going anywhere after you leave it. "

Couldn't agree more. The SHR is probably the only trip that I have taken that I look back and say "I wish I would have slowed down"

Paul McLaughlin
(paul) - MLife
Re: Four Point Five Pounds. on 02/09/2013 18:21:02 MST Print View

One more factor is how much you weigh. If you are a greyhound at 135 lbs, that 4.5 lbs is a bigger percentage of your weight than if you are a fullback at 225. To my mind the percentage of bodyweight is a more meaningful number than percentage of pack weight.

Harrison Carpenter
(carpenh) - M

Locale: St. Vrain River Valley
Re: Four Point Five Pounds. on 02/10/2013 08:59:06 MST Print View

This thread is an interesting read, largely because there's an undercurrent to it: that specific numbers assigned to weights can/do affect one's satisfaction. It is true, of course, that sheer weight does affect one's ability to carry a load-- as do one'e muscular strength and endurance. But the psychological dimensions? That makes perfect sense, although it's something I've not read much discussion of.

This smacks of sports psychology to me. Bobby Jones once said that "all golf is played between your ears;" I wonder, do all our hiking routes "go through our ears?" Hmmmm...

OK, that's enough from me. Carry on. :-)

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
I notice 5 lbs on 02/10/2013 09:45:51 MST Print View

I definately notice 5 lbs of weight. That is the difference between your pack on day 1 and your pack on day 4 after you have eaten 3 days off food. So it isnt a non trivial amount. I think total pack weight is better to look at to see if you cross any tipping points for yourself.

For me TPW of sub 20 is about as light as I notice until I get to sub 10. That space between 12 and 20 doesnt chane my pace. At 25 I am measurably slower than 20 and at 30 significantly slower. At 40 I begin to suffer on uphills.

So if that 4.5 lbs doesnt change your hike then bring it. For me if it pushed TPW from 20 to 25 than I would think hard about it and look at the terrain I am crossing on the first 3 days out of resupply.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Great Advice Tom! on 02/18/2013 14:44:42 MST Print View

Tom,
Love it..... "Hey Craig, head up here and check out the snow. What a friend! ;)"

Snow Tongue

By the way, the north side of Snow Tongue was the worst mile of hiking I can remember.

Edited by gg-man on 02/18/2013 14:45:43 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Great Advice Tom! on 02/18/2013 16:44:01 MST Print View

"Hey Craig, head up here and check out the snow. What a friend! ;)"

Hey, he's got a wife and kids; plus, he's a good man. ;0)

"By the way, the north side of Snow Tongue was the worst mile of hiking I can remember."

+1 That is one of the nastier stretches of talus I've ever run across. You have to love Roper's understated "straightforward but rugged" description.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Great Advice Tom! on 02/18/2013 16:47:51 MST Print View

That looks like some pretty tedious hiking.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Great Advice Tom! on 02/18/2013 17:51:11 MST Print View

"That looks like some pretty tedious hiking."

Yeah, but the stuff just over the saddle will get your attention. :0]

shr-006

Edited by ouzel on 02/18/2013 17:55:14 MST.