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Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
SCARP 2 winter mods photos on 01/29/2013 22:27:18 MST Print View

Scarp 2 fly interior, X-ing poles in place.At long last "My Precious" is finished!The two main poles, heavier,<img src= pre-bent winter pole next to original." width=Detail of X-ing pole in corner grommet W/ Velcro cable wrap. Note the CF corner poles provide good seight="640">"550" height="413">attatchment of inner tent at roof.Exterior of Scarp 2 W/ interior crossing poles.="550" height="413">

And that's it.

>I may add four more Velcro cable wraps at the top reinforcement circles. All wraps are sewn to the Hypalon exterior reinforcements for the X-ing pole straps.

>All seams and hand stitching are sealed inside and out.

>The corner grommets put the outward stress on the triangulated CF corner poles. Thanks for that inspired corner support design Henry.

>the X-ing poles are pulled up a bit at the center top by 10 mm. webbing and a QR buckle. This gives adequate clearance for the inner tent attatchment and also partially spreads X-ing poles tension to the main pole.

The next set of photos will show it in the mountains in a true winter setting, complete with all side and end extra guylines set for extreme weather.

This may not be everyone's cup of tea but it answers my needs for better (IMHO) canopy support.

The extra weight of the heavier main pole was almost exactly offset by the weight lost in shortening the X-ing poles. I actually lightened total pole weight by a whopping 0.02 ounces. :o)

Edited by Danepacker on 01/29/2013 22:44:35 MST.

Joshua Billings
(Joshua) - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz,Ca
Nice mod on 01/30/2013 21:08:13 MST Print View

Looks good. Did you ever have the tent in heavy snow before the mod? ( I am assuming you did this for the snow) Did you feel that the material might rip or did you actually experience it before the mod? What was the main reason for doing this? I have a scarp 1 but haven't taken it out in the snow yet. Do you think that the scarp 1 would be subject to the same stresses that the larger tent has? Thanks. Josh

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: SCARP 2 winter mods photos on 01/30/2013 21:13:41 MST Print View

Eric that looks amazing!

I have one too and have to admit thats pretty sweet.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
My Scarp 2 mods on 01/31/2013 00:43:54 MST Print View

Josh,

Never had it in the snow, never even slept in it yet. Just got it in Dec. Can't wait for a good storm forecast. Then I'll head for an exposed ridge at 10,000 ft. in 'Vegas nearby Spring Mountains.

I always felt the Scarp design was a very good one that only needed some minor tweaking for full-on winter duty. That's why I bought it instead of a Hilleberg.

Jeff,

Thanks, glad you like it. The mods were not really "extensive" and W/O crossing poles the only giveaways of the modding are the Velcro cable wraps and corner grommets. The interior X-ing poles still allow the Scarp 2 to be freestanding.

** I can leave the inner tent attatched to the fly everywhere but the roof for packing purposes. That way I have enough working room to attatch the X-ing poles first.

I'll use the lighter main pole in 3 season camping.

It's likely I will sew on tent stake loops around the fly bottom hem for even more "gription". I'll use the original light 10 mm. webbing from the X-ing pole tiedowns, as I did on my TT Moment. Belt-and-suspenders mentality, fer sure.

Gotta say that I feel the winterized Scarp 2 will hold up very well in high winds WITH 4 tie-outs (sides & ends). If not then back to the drawing board (or CAD program).

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
SCARP 2 winter mods photos on 01/31/2013 01:35:51 MST Print View

Hi Eric
Nice mod...
The "Kocheda" version I did was just something that I had in my mind when Henry was designing the Scarp.
(mostly because I had used and seam sealed several Bibler tents...)
as it happens the first night I had the tent I woke up sometime after midnight thinking about that mod so I set the Scarp up in my backyard and did that mod.
I had to use the poles on hand (the std x poles), so for that to work I had to insert the pole tip on one corner and finish on the opposite corner on the same size.
Having done that and then played around a bit I lost interest mostly because it was a bit fiddly but also because I just used the Moment for my winter trips.
having the poles crossing in the center is obviously less fiddly and allows the use of the existing bases for the pole attachments so yes not too much work involved.
Well done .
here is the original Kocheda (New snow) :TT Kocheda

Edited by Franco on 01/31/2013 01:37:23 MST.

brent driggers
(cadyak) - MLife

Locale: southwest georgia
bomber looking on 01/31/2013 08:02:37 MST Print View

Nice work Eric and Franco.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: bomber looking on 01/31/2013 09:38:02 MST Print View

Well done Eric :-)

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Weddy weddy interesting Franco on 01/31/2013 11:35:09 MST Print View

Franco, your solution is interesting in that it requires no sewing but still gives internal support.

For on-snow use you'd need pole pockets sewn at the hem to recieve the X-ing pole ends and prevent them from sinking into the snow. What I like is that with your "Kocheda" setup you can use the crossing poles inside or outside. Cool.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Weddy weddy interesting Franco on 01/31/2013 11:42:01 MST Print View

Just a thought: given the lowish hydrostatic head of silnylon, is there any concern that the pressure of the internal pole against the silnylon fly could cause some leaking at the points at which the pole presses against the fabric?

I suspect this could be remedied by simply applying some silnet where the fly and poles touch. On the other hand, it may not be an issue at all.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Solutions: Eric vs Franco on 01/31/2013 11:44:04 MST Print View

Eric,

It looks like your poles terminate just above the V-Struts. Franco's go to the ground. Question is, how well does the load transfer to the struts. Would you have gotten more, less, same structure by eliminating the struts and going to the ground. Would removing the struts affected other design features; positively or negatively?

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
SCARP 2 winter mods photos on 01/31/2013 14:45:18 MST Print View

Eric
My Kocheda mod would also need some sewing if put into actual use.
You need to keep the poles in place. Possibly wind and most likely snow would move them out of position so they do need some internal clips.
Family Guy
Yes, that reminded me of another reason I did not follow through with my mod.
Silnylon in contact with another surface can wet out and leak.(the fabric inner can handle that)
I cannot remember now if I tested that or not but that was part of the problem with the BD shelters that have poles against the fabric. That design worked well (for me...) with the ToddTex(PTFE) in the Bilblers not so much with Epic.
Nick
Those PitchLock corners are in my mind the best idea that Henry has ever come up with.
They offer a lot of support and leverage for the very minimal weight.
I don't know of any other corner support that is even close to that , so no I would definitely not touch/modify that.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
May get some wind on 01/31/2013 19:03:57 MST Print View

Eric, if you bring that to Desolation, could see some wind at Gilmore. Looks very nice, great thinking.
Duane

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Pole contact W/fly and leaking on 01/31/2013 21:44:22 MST Print View

All,

Dave,
I coated the entire top of the fly with a 5:1 ratio (by volume) of odorless mineral spirits to GE silicone caulk then wiped it down for application uniformity and to remove excess coating. I doubt it I'll have any problem with leaking at the pole contact areas. I think the hydrostatic head is now likely doubled.

If I do have any leakage I'll coat the inner side of the fly in those areas only. In fact I may do it anyway to reduce wear from chafing. But I rcall the pole sleeve for my Moment hasn't shown wear so I'm not too concerned.

Believe me, by the time any wear might happen I'll surely be on to a newer design with "Unobtanium" poles.

Nick,
If you look closely at the outside view you can tell the X-ing poles push down a bit
on the triangulated CF corner struts. That's as it should be since the apex of a triangle is a very strong load bearing point. Henry's clever design aided my modification. As also mentioned, some of that load is relieved by the 10 mm. webbing W/ QR buckle I used at the top where the poles crossed. This raised the X-ing poles a bit to give room for the inner tent ceiling. PM me if you want the webbing attatchment details. It was dead simple.

Edited by Danepacker on 01/31/2013 21:56:07 MST.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
SCARP 2 winter mods photos on 02/02/2013 02:01:28 MST Print View

Eric,
That is truly awesome. Don't know if you posted the photos before, but thank you for doing so now. It is some serendipitous what you and Franco have been able to do with a tent that began its life with a much different shape.

Since the tent is fully pitchable without the long poles, it looks like you can get into it easily afterward to add the long poles - not like the BD HiLite type tents that you have to crawl under on the ground.

Any interest in long carbon poles of equal strength and around half the weight? PM me if you like.

Can't wait for the next set of photos.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
SCARP 2 winter mods photos on 02/02/2013 03:04:27 MST Print View

Looking again at my version I remembered another reason why I did not follow that up.
That is because the two poles double crossed like that cause an almost flat area around the vents.
But again it was something I did under the full moon at around two AM just so I could see if it could be done.
Then I kind of lost interest...

Andy F
(AndyF) - M
Re: SCARP 2 winter mods photos on 12/01/2013 21:55:06 MST Print View

These are awesome mods. Thanks again for the idea and photos, Eric!

I'm most of the way through doing these to my Scarp 2. I've done the grommet tabs and the velcro. Somehow, I was able to machine sew all of these without sewing the fly together accidentally! I still need to add the center pole lifting strap and cut the poles. I also coated the top and floor and added slightly longer and extra guylines when I first received the tent, so that's done. I suppose I ought to get the heavier main pole too.

I've got the procedure down, just need to find the time now.

Edited by AndyF on 12/01/2013 21:58:26 MST.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Scarp Mods on 12/02/2013 01:08:59 MST Print View

These mods make the Scarp better. Good work, men.

But if Henry had just used two end hoops instead of the little patent pending call-em-techno-struts-but-they're-still-just-sticks-things he could've offered a real winter tent at less weight, easier setup, and prettier aesthetics than the two honkin' crossing poles. It woulda been a serious 3-hoop tunnel with good fabric tension, which is what we need for snow and real wind loads.

Ah well.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
SCARP 2 winter mods photos on 12/02/2013 02:42:35 MST Print View

"But if Henry had just used two end hoops instead of the little patent pending call-em-techno-struts-but-they're-still-just-sticks-things"

They do indeed look just like two sticks, however :
Pitch Lock corner
BTW, note that the single 8" Easton peg is holding my 150lbs.

Just in case...
There is no trick there but don't try it or you may impale yourself.
Just a mild push with one hand will squash most tents, no need to lean on them.

Edited by Franco on 12/02/2013 03:24:58 MST.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
stick-things on 12/03/2013 00:08:27 MST Print View

Some sloppy math says that Ryan's end hoops, at 6 feet (each), would be as long as the the 6 feet total of TT's carbon tube, around two times the weight using the best Easton prebent alloy tube, and would not provide nearly as much head and foot space at the end walls as the Scarp. On the plus side, agree with the point about the 3-hoops on aesthetics, maybe more wind stability, and a need for only one stake at each end for conical end covers. When GoLite got into a similar three hoop design a few years ago, though, the weight went off the charts, a bad precedent.

The problem seems to be the diminished end space using low hoops, and how small a radius carbon, as distinguished from prebent alloy, can be bent to without breaking when the wind adds additional stress. This is a problem Roger Caffin faced with his tents, and may be why he elected to use the elbows for his carbon stick-things, to create more head and shoulder space without over stressing the carbon. Has anyone tried to intersperse prebent alloy sections with straight carbon ones in order to get an almost hoop shape at lighter weight than all alloy?

One question may be how Ryan would like mini versions of Roger's penta hoops at the head and foot ends. Somehow can't see Ryan or TT going for that. Maybe the aesthetic thing at work again. If they ever figure it out and start making filament wound curved carbon tubes of high quality, game over. Form and function would meet.

EDIT: Oops, forgot about the additional stick-thingy (carbon tube strut) that goes in the center of each end of the Scarp. Adding that brings the strut weight up closer to the weight of an alloy hoop. Using prebent Easton nanolite 344 tube instead of 340 would lower the hoop weight, further reducing the weight difference. The small hoops could be lightened still further by using carbon sections at the center and ends of each, and using two prebent alloy sections between them, so the hoop would be skewed a bit outward at about 12" height, and provide more space for head and feet to move sideways. We can make our own prebent alloy sections, using packed fine sand, but they will not be as durable as a section prebent by Easton before tempering. Whatever the issues might be with this approach, the final product would be better than the use of straight struts used in many configurations on the many versions of the center hoop, side entry tents that abound. So agree with Ryan's disfavor of the sticky-things.
Reflecting on what configuration of sticks might work best on the ends of an Akto is kind of fun, but smaller end hoops with conical end covers that both tension the tent and provide well-protected venting, always seemed like a better approach.

Edited by scfhome on 12/03/2013 17:08:11 MST.

Henry Shires
(07100) - F - M
Re: Scarp Mods on 12/03/2013 21:27:06 MST Print View

And if Ryan actually knew anything about tent design we would all perk up and genuflect at his billowing ego. But then again, he doesn't and no one cares.

Ah well..