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Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Guys any progress? on 03/29/2013 13:35:17 MDT Print View

D@mn.
Now you have me hooked in.
I was hoping for a peaceful week too, before this rabbit hole appeared.

"Hand warmers use lighter fluid versus alcohol." So is it a different form of reaction? Is the difference the type or processed form of the platinum involved? Is it reacting with naphtha as opposed to methanol? Is the reaction inherently stronger or weaker? Why does my head hurt? LOL. I may have to just change my name to google.

On a side note, as I read through this thread again I cannot help but wonder how zelph, "THE STOVE GUY", found a cool cryptic old lighter on CPF and saw ... a lighter. The stove guy. Nothing but a lighter.

Where are the imaginings for a super-light-weight, super efficient, alcohol version of this:
http://www.bluedome.co.uk/trailwalk/trailwalk3.cfm?review=184&mascat=29&subcat=72
bluedome


I am not a chemist.
I am not an engineer.
I am not possessed of any particularly extraordinary intelligence.
What I do have is the remarkably and inexplicably intact imagination of my adolescence, and with all do respect ... am I seriously the only one who wants a platinum catalytic cap that I can retro fit onto my starlyte to make it a lightweight, flameless, ridiculously fuel-to-weight efficient uber-stove? Oh I even have a name ... wait for it ... the Darkstar. Get it? Cause its flameless and sits on top of the starlyte. Too obtuse?

So, while I go back to daydreaming, can you smart guys who make stuff please stop playing around on your computers and get back to work already?

Edited by cfrey.0 on 03/29/2013 15:25:23 MDT.

Ben H.
(bzhayes) - F

Locale: So. California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Guys any progress? on 03/29/2013 16:43:07 MDT Print View

If I understand is correctly it is the same reaction. The platinum acts as an intermediary step and remains unchanged at the completion of the reaction. Platinum will catalyze most any alcohol. It will have different reaction rates based on the fuel. My understanding is any fuel besides methanol and the platinum must be hot before any noticeable reaction will occur. Even with methanol, as we are finding out, it is not easy to get the reaction to occur at room temperatures.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Enter The "Darkstar" on 03/29/2013 17:54:22 MDT Print View

am I seriously the only one who wants a platinum catalytic cap that I can retro fit onto my starlyte to make it a lightweight, flameless, ridiculously fuel-to-weight efficient uber-stove? Oh I even have a name ... wait for it ... the Darkstar. Get it? Cause its flameless and sits on top of the starlyte. Too obtuse?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

No way, I want one also :-)

I did several things before I got the red hot glowing gauze. I'll give more info tomorrow.

One handwarmer was abused in the name of scientific advancement.

We will advance into the realm of flame-less stoves.

These are click-able thumbnails


 photo platinumgauze002_zps139740ea.jpg photo platinumgauze004_zps36369e8d.jpg photo platinumgauze006_zps403352be.jpg

Edited by zelph on 03/29/2013 18:05:00 MDT.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Enter The "Darkstar" on 03/30/2013 10:27:34 MDT Print View

This morning I used 190 proof Everclear alcohol in a StarLyte burner. I put 4 handwarmer heating elements on top of it. Lit the burner, let it heat up the elements and then blew it out. The elements did their catalytic duty and proceeded to burn with low heat. I was disappointed!

Next I'll try it with HEET and then after that with lighter fluid.

Yesterday I had to preheat the heater element and then place it on top of the StatLyte. It worked really nice but, has a bad odor when burning....humbug.

Onward!

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Re: Re: Enter The "Darkstar" on 03/30/2013 21:23:07 MDT Print View

Dan, now your cooking with gas ... errrrr ... alcohol?

I am away for an Easter weekend family hiking trip, but I am anxious to check-in when I get back mid-week. I just wanted to drop in a quick line and say .... cool. Very cool.

Best Luck!

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: Re: Enter The "Darkstar" on 03/31/2013 15:36:51 MDT Print View

Christoper, your link to the "Blue Dome" was interesting and jogged a little grey matter. I had to go back to my "blog" www.bplite.com to see if I could find a thread started by "oops56" He introduced us to a catalyzed platinum ceramic burner a couple of years ago. At that time I had purchased a dozen to experiment with but got sidetracked. Recently I came across the little box of burner elements and put a little burner/stove together. I used Isopropyl 91 alcohol to test it out. It's works and smells a lot better than the stove with the four handwarmer elements that I used HEET alcohol in.
Not enough time in the day to do all the experiments that I have in mind to do.

Here is some info on the Fragrance Lampe heating element that I used today in the proto burner.

The lamp fuel contains 90% isopropyl alcohol and should be regarded as a highly flammable liquid. Furthermore, to start the catalytic wick according to the instruction it is necessary to light the catalytic burner with a flame and let it burn for approximately two minutes until it reaches the correct operating temperature. At this point the flame should be extinguished in order for the oil to be diffused. Precautions should be taken to avoid any possible hazards:

Maurice Berger patented the Fragrance Lampe in Paris in June of 1898, hence the name Lampe Berger.

During the early 1900's, the Lamps were marketed to French institutions where hygiene was most important such as hospitals and mortuaries. The Lamps ability to purify the air was the primary selling point. At that time the lamps used methyl alcohol which gave off formaldehyde on combustion. It was efficient but smelled unpleasant.

In 1927, Maurice Berger sold the company to Jean-Jacques Faillot. He changed to ethyl alcohol which has the scent of Apples on combustion. This change moved the Lampe Berger Company into the consumer market and the fragrancing ability of the lampes became important. Faillot began collaborating with great bottle designers of the period including Galle, Lalique, Baccarat, Saint-Louis, Sabino and Tharaud. In the 1930's sales reached approximately 20,000 lamps a year. Exports began, but had mixed success.



Catalytic wick/lamp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragrance_lamp


 photo platinumgauze008_zps81961961.jpg

Edited by zelph on 03/31/2013 15:40:43 MDT.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Guys any progress? on 04/14/2013 17:52:00 MDT Print View

I'm still playing around with catalytic heaters. I did a few tests today using Zippo lighter fluid. Works ok but gives off too much unburned vapor. Yesterdays tests I used HEET and it worked better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTwuW5IhCic

How are you guys doing with your wire testing?

Gregory Stein
(tauneutrino) - F

Locale: Upper Galilee
Experiments on 04/15/2013 00:31:20 MDT Print View

Dan, haven't received your wire yet.

I'm on a Black Platinum project right now. I think I got a right direction. My experimenting in the lab will be completed on Wednesday this week. Will prepare a detailed report + photos.

Ben H.
(bzhayes) - F

Locale: So. California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Guys any progress? on 04/15/2013 14:23:12 MDT Print View

I've been traveling and been otherwise pretty busy with work, but I have been playing around with that lighter you sent. Once again, thanks!

The more I play around with the lighter, the more convinced I become with our group consensus that platinum black/sponge is necessary to kick off the reaction at room temperatures. On the lighter, the platinum black doesn't glow very much but the reaction always starts there and quickly works its way down the wire. The wire glows more than the pt black, but that makes sense since the pt black appears black because it has so many occlusions it traps light.

I've been thinking about DIY ways of making pt black but it is getting pretty far afield for me. Hoping Greg comes up with something :) Right now it seems like the best way of getting a catalytic lighter to light your alcohol stove is to buy one of the antiques off of ebay. If you can get a good working one for around $30 it appears to be one heck of a deal in terms of the pt black that it contains

If you want something ultralight you could un-braze the two tubes apart, but even together it isn't very big or heavy. In terms of lighting an alcohol stove, it appears to me all you need is a wick in a confined space. It didn't take much fiddling with a fancy feast can and strip of carbon felt to get something that works. I couldn't get you Venom Super Stove to ignite, but that is because there is no enclosed area to stick the catalyst.

This is still a ridiculously neat concept. I am having a bit of a challenge on deciding where to go from here, but I will keep thinking and fiddling.

Edited by bzhayes on 04/15/2013 14:46:37 MDT.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Guys any progress? on 04/16/2013 07:46:50 MDT Print View

I think Gregory will come up with a solution. He's got lab facilities and bunch of goodies to work with.

Ben, I could make some modified StarLyte burners like the one in the video and have them available to all that want something "special" Purchase a lighter on ebay or buy a new, in the box lighter from me. I can make them available only to BPL members via my web store. Visible only to BPL. I have 10 available.

I can make the Modified StarLyte like the one in the video.

Watch the photobucket video.

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</center>

Gregory Stein
(tauneutrino) - F

Locale: Upper Galilee
Delay in work on 04/18/2013 04:38:51 MDT Print View

Guys the lab wasn't available because it was just moved and not all equipment is available now.

So there is some delay in work.

Meanwhile, please tell me if you can reach the following materials:
0) Nitric acid
1) Hydrochloric acid
2) Formic Acid
3) Sodium sulphite

While first two are absolutely MUST to have in order to get platinum black, other two are nice to have. Maybe I'll find another method of getting platinum out of chloroplatinic acid.

All the best!

Greg.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Delay in work on 04/18/2013 07:49:09 MDT Print View

You can get hydrochloric acid from building supply store - Home Depot, Lowes,... - it's called Muriatic Acid, used for etching concrete or putting in swimming pools.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Fume Hood on 04/18/2013 08:03:34 MDT Print View

Maybe, if I had a "fume hood" available I might try it. I think it's better I wait till you make some and purchase it from you :-)

Ben H.
(bzhayes) - F

Locale: So. California
Re: Delay in work on 04/18/2013 10:58:33 MDT Print View

All are available with differing levels of difficulty.

0) Nitric acid
A weak (~10%) solution can be bought in hardware or wood-working stores as the wood stain Aqua Fortis.

Alternatively you can make your own: http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Nitric-acid-The-Complete-Guide/

or amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hanna-Instrument-HI70445-Nitric-Solution/dp/B0085XOYHO/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1366302639&sr=1-2&keywords=nitric+acid

1) Hydrochloric acid

Muratic acid as noted above can be found at Lowes, Home Depot, or Hardware stores.

2) Formic Acid

Should be able to get this from feed stores. Used as an additive to livestock feed. Also used in beekeeping as a miticide.

http://www.amazon.com/Hanna-Instrument-HI70445-Nitric-Solution/dp/B0085XOYHO/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1366302639&sr=1-2&keywords=nitric+acid

3) Sodium sulphite

Available at Photography shops that carry darkroom chemicals.

http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Formulary-Sodium-Sulfite-Anhydrous/dp/B0002HMSAQ


I sure wish I came across this when I was a broke grad student with access to a lab and all the chemicals I could want. Now with two boys under 5 it will take quite a bit of convincing for my wife to let me do this kind of stuff :(

William Chilton
(WilliamC3) - MLife

Locale: Antakya
Re: Delay in work on 04/18/2013 11:12:39 MDT Print View

I don't know about in Israel, but here in Turkey hydrochloric acid is widely available for descaling (removing limescale from) kettles etc. The name translates into English as "spirits of salt", if that helps.

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Re: Delay in work on 04/18/2013 14:14:41 MDT Print View

"Yes, Hello and pleasant greetings to you good shopkeeper. Would you kindly point me to your stores of nitric acid, hydrochloric acid, formic acid and sodium sulphate."

I m going to cross my fingers and hope Greg figures this out, before someone on this thread gets arrested. "But officer, that Aqua Regia isn't mine! I don't know how it got there!"

Edited by cfrey.0 on 04/18/2013 14:18:48 MDT.

Gregory Stein
(tauneutrino) - F

Locale: Upper Galilee
Aqua Regia and law on 04/20/2013 13:54:39 MDT Print View

Is there any problems with Aqua Regia? I think producing a little amount of it at home is OK.

Anyway I'm thinking of producing some chloroplatinic acid and sending it with sodium sulphite. Both reactives are OK to be sent just in ziploc bags. Then you can just put both in water and at the end platinum black will show itself as a black sediment. I think it is better than sending PB itself because you can make platinum black coatings that way.

Making that tiny black ball is also a big issue. I think it should be made of some metal coated with platinum black. Since this ball starts the reaction and preheats the wire it should conduct heat very well. That's why I think it should be made of metal. Using platinum black for entire ball is a waste.

Hence I'm struggling with producing this platinum black coating. Yet need to find better metal to be coated.

What I thought of is maybe that black ball is a porous platinum sponge? Can anybody check this under microscope?

The whole process can be described in two phases:
0) Making Chloroplatinic Acid
1) making Platinum Black (or coating for something)

Phase 0:
0) Making Aqua Regia from nitric acid and hydrochloric acid
1) dissolving platinum (not must be exceptionally clean - will be purified during the process) in aqua regia and getting chloroplatinic acid
2) filtering and boiling out the solution and getting clean chloroplatinic acid in bright orange-red crystalls. In this form it can be packed and shipped

Phase 1:
0) Disolving the chloroplatinic acid in distilled water
1) putting tiny (really tiny) piece of some metal (yet to be found the best one for this) for making platinum black coating
2) Adding sodium sulphite
3) Waiting for platinum black to create a sediment

So far my findings

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Re: Aqua Regia and law on 04/20/2013 15:20:28 MDT Print View

Sorry Greg, I was distracting the serious tone with a touch of Tom-Foolery. I don't know of any legal issues ... just the idea of assembling that grocery list outside of a lab!

Back to topic ... with regards to the black ball ... have we considered that it might be platinized platinum (platinum that has been coated with platinum black)?

Cheers

Gregory Stein
(tauneutrino) - F

Locale: Upper Galilee
Re: Re: Aqua Regia and law on 04/20/2013 16:41:18 MDT Print View

Yeah! It could be platinum. But why to waste so rear and expensive metal? The "content" of the ball does nothing in the catalytic reaction, so why not use less expensive metals?

The metal need to be:
0) inexpensive and easy to find
1) Easy to made tiny ball of
2) Could be platinized
3) Should conduct heat very well

Also any ideas of how to attach it to the wire?

Hmmm... Just thought why not platinize a portion of the platinum wire? Or even make a clew (roll) of part of the wire and platinize it?

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Re: Re: Re: Aqua Regia and law on 04/20/2013 23:43:21 MDT Print View

Stumbled across this ...

Richard E. Berthold patented one of the original dual-tube catalytic lighters. He also, circa 1933 filed the below patent on creating a catalytic agent for use in the lighters and the description would seem to suggest the "ball" or "pellet" is sintered ... if I am reading properly that is.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=wP19AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thought you might be interested.

Edited by cfrey.0 on 04/21/2013 00:21:19 MDT.