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Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 01/08/2013 09:59:32 MST Print View

Why was the forum thread, that Babak Sakaki started on the entitled subject, deleted yesterday evening?

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Patagonia Down Parka on 01/08/2013 23:02:29 MST Print View

Hello Everyone,

I deleted the thread without an explanation because I did not have an explanation to give - yet, and I needed some time to do some homework.

I do not know all of the facts behind the posting of the details about the jacket at this time, but I do know this: that no, while Patagonia isn't Apple, and no, this may technically not violate anything legal for Babak to post this info, it *may* violate what we consider to be reasonable standards of ethics that I adhere to for BPL - publishing potentially proprietary information from a company that does not desire that information to be released. I have been in contact with Patagonia and they indicated to me that this information not only was not intended to be released, but the information that was published was inaccurate as well.

Journalists love scoops. And while it's ethically acceptable in the news industry to squeeze, buy, barter, or bribe confidential information from our politicians, corporate insiders, and other keepers of controversial news (and readers *love* and *demand* it), it's not always an ethical standard that's good for everyone involved. I'm not suggesting that Babak unethically gained the information, or published it with the intention of disclosing proprietary information. That burden of unethical disclosure should fall on his sources, since this information did indeed to appear embargoed by Patagonia.

That this involved a Patagonia product is irrelevant. I've been in similar types of situations with products from other companies as well, including the very smallest of our cottage industry manufacturers, and I will honor their requests as much as I will honor one from a large company.

Please keep in mind that for every time I've taken down a forum thread or censored it when it has come to product disclosure issues, Roger and I have rejected several dozen requests from manufacturers. These things are very carefully evaluated and we use the delete button with extreme reservation.

I've introduced Babak to a contact at Patagonia and hopefully they can resolve any issues behind the scenes and Babak can circle around and let us know how it went. If all goes well and they foster a nice relationship then maybe we can hear about new Patagonia stuff without so much drama :)

PS: And, FYI, the "stove" thread in question is still in progress. Don't worry, that horse ain't dead yet...!

Edited by ryan on 01/08/2013 23:21:19 MST.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
My bad, fam on 01/08/2013 23:55:11 MST Print View

Ryan (and to whomever at Patty who I irked):

My bad, truly. I wasnt trying to violate any ethical code or try to disclose proprietary info that wasnt meant to be released.

All information about the jacket (except fabric) was obtained by (current) Patagonia employees, including the photo. ALL said that they were only very few details (cost, colors, photo, materials) and were not told that they couldn't sell them or share that info.

Looking forward to hopefully reaching out to those folks.

Sincerely,

Babak

Edited by persianpunisher on 01/08/2013 23:58:13 MST.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: My bad, fam on 01/09/2013 00:13:51 MST Print View

Babak -- totally cool. I'm sure with some further communications we'll get this figured out well enough. Thanks for your patience!

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
While we wait... on 01/09/2013 00:36:39 MST Print View

Here is some not embargoed info on the down itself, per Patagonia:

http://player.vimeo.com/video/53090733?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0&badge=0&color=ffffff

Brendan Swihart
(brendans) - MLife

Locale: Fruita CO
thread deleting on 01/09/2013 08:01:18 MST Print View

Seems like leaving a short explanation in place of the deleted content would leave less to the imagination about what's going on. Things just disappearing makes folks (rightly) uneasy.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
The Interesting Part on 01/09/2013 10:04:40 MST Print View

The most interesting part of all this to me is how closely manufacturers watch this site. I kin of assumed, since this is where I go for the "scoop," but after this episode i'm assuming all of my posts are being read closely.

I guess I should be more vocal with my preferences in outdoors gear!

-I hate snagging zippers
-I love things that store in their own pocket
-I like vents underneath chest pockets that are compatible with backpack straps
-I love durability

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
PM me if you want my link to a review on the jacket on 01/09/2013 11:28:20 MST Print View

PM me if any of you want a link with a review of the jacket (YouTube)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: PM me if you want my link to a review on the jacket on 01/09/2013 11:32:08 MST Print View

Where did the other posts within this thread go? You know, all those well thought out tongue in cheek responses. So the original thread was deleted, then the seperate thread in response to the original thread was heavily edited?

Aye.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: thread deleting on 01/09/2013 12:13:39 MST Print View

Seems like leaving a short explanation in place of the deleted content would leave less to the imagination about what's going on. Things just disappearing makes folks (rightly) uneasy.

i said the exact same thing and my post got deleted

delete in 3 .. 2 ... 1 ...

;)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: thread deleting on 01/09/2013 12:17:50 MST Print View

poof!

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Poof goes the Poofay, indeed on 01/09/2013 12:54:04 MST Print View

I should explain something to Patagonia, before they ask for this thread to be deleted:

I have, since 2009 and on numerous attempts, have made efforts to check out your line at EVERY Outdoor Retailer show. And EVERY time, you guys give me the snub. Someone at lunch, or you can't because "I am not a buyer"- and that's fine.

But like many folks on BPL, I am just searching for accurate information. We are a community that is devoted to spending time outdoors, and many of us use your (rather kick-ass) products.

That being said, I found it very irksome that you'd support websites who seem to somewhat regularly spread misinformation and misconceptions about the products they review (*cough*OutdoorGearLab.com*cough*).

So rather than contacting me directly (you have my information from a number of ways), you ask for a thread to be deleted.

Next time, Patty- holler at your boy. Don't take the lame route and just censor me, and then leave everyone puzzled….. it only bring more attention to what you do not want seen (yet). Otherwise, I wouldn't be taking the entire day off of work to write up (a rather extensive) video review of the Men's Encapsil Down Belay Parka.

Edited by persianpunisher on 01/09/2013 12:55:46 MST.

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Off, but related topic on 01/09/2013 14:46:16 MST Print View

Aside from the momentary drama here. I am sure many of us are really interested in the technology here with all of these down treatments. For example:

* How does the Encapsil technology increase loft (like many, I am an engineer)?

* Critically, how durable are these coatings? Are they going to degrade with soiling, washing, etc?

I feel like we are entering a version of the Gore Tex story here for a new generation of hikers with competing patents and marketing claims. Perfect opportunity for BPL to apply its tradition of unbiased scientific rigor to the topic, which I am sure Ryan is already planning.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
dry downs... on 01/09/2013 20:12:15 MST Print View

Some of it is window dressing, and I can't sort out how / why some makers have spent the money for it (marketing?).

Then there's this other one I've tried that is nothing short of remarkable. I can't disclose who makes it yet, but It's as good as synthetic fill in resisting loft degradation in sustained rain, at least when worn in the short term (a few days of wearing in bad weather, stuffing in pack, unstuffing it, etc.).

The rest of them I've tried (all of them that are publicly available) are somewhere in between, and definite steps up from untreated down.

I'm excited about the prospects here, especially for cooler weather sleeping bags.

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Re: dry downs... on 01/09/2013 22:24:58 MST Print View

Thanks Ryan. I agree that there is real substance and reason to be excited about this new technology. It does appear to work and is far more than just marketing, just like GoreTex was not just marketing. There was real technological advances there that benefited us as outdoor gear consumers.

But there were also real world limitations, as we all know know, in terms of actual breathability and durability to those materials. It will be interesting to see what the analogous story will be with treated down in terms of the long-term performance (e.g.,durability, loft retention, etc.) with the various treated down products. Maybe it actually is better in every way. That would be great. I am actually holding off on my next sleeping bag/quilt purchase till some of this shakes out. The has someone done a patent search to see how new these are? A That would be interesting too.

a b
(Ice-axe)
Re: dry downs... on 01/09/2013 23:58:33 MST Print View

"Then there's this other one I've tried that is nothing short of remarkable. I can't disclose who makes it yet, but It's as good as synthetic fill in resisting loft degradation in sustained rain, at least when worn in the short term (a few days of wearing in bad weather, stuffing in pack, unstuffing it, etc"

Okay, STOP.

Ryan, is that a fair thing to say?

You have this forum and a huge audience here and you "can't disclose who make this yet".

Dude.. why not?

We are BPL.

We paid you money for just this sort of information.

I urge you to at least secure a test sample or an early review for the BPL audience.

If this is just another transitory coating that dies over time like WR treatments.. we want to know how long it lasts.

Not going to say; you owe it to us. But.. you owe it to us.


Oh yea, please disclose any interest you have in the company this time.
Thanks.

Edited by Ice-axe on 01/10/2013 00:01:46 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: dry downs... on 01/10/2013 00:11:25 MST Print View

"We paid you money for just this sort of information."

I would venture to guess that some companies provide beta gear for testing/feedback to a handful, and that part of the agreement is not to make public anything about the gear.

If that is the case, they he would not be allowed to share any information until the company says it is okay.

I might be wrong. Nobody ever sends me gear... I have to buy all of it :)

a b
(Ice-axe)
Re: Re: Re: dry downs... on 01/10/2013 00:24:49 MST Print View

Yea, your right Nick.

Just feelin' fiesty.

Also a little tired of the "hot and cold" routine we get from "upper management" round here.

Dustin Short
(upalachango) - MLife
dry downs... on 01/10/2013 00:53:21 MST Print View

Meh, it's all hype. I still think aluminizing synthetics to up their clo value will prove a better route than modifying down. Or maybe those new polymer based aerogels that are inherently flexible...

For now I'll stick with my reflectix suit of armor. Somewhat light and guarantees i'm visible from space.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Mental pricing on 01/10/2013 15:46:23 MST Print View

Is Patagonia off their game charging 700$ for the jacket.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: dry downs... on 01/10/2013 17:55:37 MST Print View

Hence, why I continued to post…. apparently, Patagonia has been developing this product for over 5 years and has thus, created a special launch plan for the product- NOTE: I bought this jacket from Patagonia's LiveChat, and paid the full retail price, with the specific intent of writing a review.

I fail to see where this is "my bad", and like others have expressed, I felt that this is the type of info that BPLers(such as myself) pay for.

Am I out of line here?

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dry downs... on 01/10/2013 18:17:05 MST Print View

I can't comment on the ethics of the situation, not knowing specifics or wider context. But in terms of just information value, at least for me, it is high. And a product review will be awesome. Even better would be testing on the underlying down material under real or simulated conditions (dirty, wet, sweaty, and stuff sack crammed).

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dry downs... on 01/10/2013 18:47:54 MST Print View

Babak,

NO, I don't think you are out of line!

The topic of water repellent down has strong interest by the forum members and you did us a BIG favor. I recommend interested parties go to You Tube and search on "Encapsil" to watch your excellent video review; 34 people have looked at it so far.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dry downs... on 01/10/2013 19:08:51 MST Print View

Babak,

If you bought this from Patagonia (legally), as it sounds you did, and did not agree to any kind of confidentiality restrictions, you are free to do as you please, IMO.

Disclosure: I am not an attorney. Just a rational human being.

That's a lot of money. I would have to ask my wife for permission -- good news is that she would probably buy it for me as a birthday or Christmas gift :)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dry downs... on 01/10/2013 19:27:28 MST Print View

"I fail to see where this is "my bad", and like others have expressed, I felt that this is the type of info that BPLers(such as myself) pay for.

Am I out of line here?


You're not out of line Babak. This IS exactly one of the reasons why people come here, to geek out on gear tech and scope new technologies and options for lightweight outdoor recreation, specifically backpacking. This takes place predominately through the free forum content. No way in hell will I be purchasing a $700 down parka, but I do find the technology developments used interesting enough to take a look. Eventually this will trickle down to more affordable down garments from Patagonia.

Maybe there is an Encapsil Down Parka review in the BPL Editorial pipeline and you, Babak, just beat them to the punch, stealing their thunder?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
dry downs... testing on 01/10/2013 21:02:35 MST Print View

Michael,

Down analysis of both simulated and real conditions tells me the following:

-Moisture-regain is a function of the intrinsic material reaction to water as a gas. Untreated down at 100% RH has a maximum moisture regain of ~15%. Tests conducted on DriDown show a 33% improvement in moisture regain to ~10%. In contrast, PET (synthetics) average 2%. All of the conventional down fluorocarbon treatments should yield similar results to DriDown. The Encapsil product treatment should THEORECTICALLY yield moisture regain similar to PET. This is because the coating is more uniform in a plasma chamber.

-Conventional DWR uses fluorocarbon spikes that can lie down in as little as a year just from the pollution in the air. Smoke, water, dirt, etc. accelerate the process. Reactivation is similar to the surface treatments on WPB jackets. The silicone in Encapsil is inert and shouldn’t degrade for the life of the product.

-Total garment/quilt/bag liquid water absorption is directly proportional to the thickness (interstice volume) regardless of the insulation type. This same phenomenon applies to PET as well as all down.

-The demos of down floating in a beaker of water indicate that waterproof down will make you invincible to water but the tests indicate a modest improvement, with the potential exception of Encapsil.

Most of the above is just summary statements from more detailed posts I have made previously. When the price of Encapsil comes down, it will be a significant advancement. The other treatments are currently affordable but offer more modest improvements.

Brett Peugh
(bpeugh) - F - M

Locale: Midwest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dry downs... on 01/10/2013 21:38:57 MST Print View

I am with you and think quite a bit of this is BS from BPL, one of the reasons why I did not renew my membership.

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Re: dry downs... testing on 01/10/2013 23:18:46 MST Print View

Richard,

Thank you. Super helpful information. And for those not familiar (I had to look it up), "moisture regain" is defined as: "The weight of moisture on a textile given as a percentage of the oven-dry weight." Given how little down weighs, that is not much moisture retention.

A big take away here seems to be that the Encapsil process (or at least a Silicon-based plasma process) is superior to the alternative coating processes, which is good to know. But it also sounds like then Patagonia might have a monopoly here and plan on extracting monopoly rents for awhile. I did a quick patent search, but lacked the right key words to find anything useful.

Alternative might be for Patagonia to license the technology to other manufacturers, which will still make it more expensive, but probably less than if Patagonia tries to keep it exclusive. Given that Patagonia does not currently make sleeping bags (unless I am forgetting something...although maybe that is their plan now), it will probably have to wait for patents to run out before the price really comes down. Depending on what the key patents are, this could take some time.

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
Lament on 01/10/2013 23:52:07 MST Print View

I turn 34 this year. I wonder if down siliconized with this technology will become available in small quantities to the MYOG crowd before I turn 50. Any wagers?

I'm not in the habit of complaining that technological advances don't come fast enough, I believe in intellectual property rights, and I don't feel entitled to the products of other people's innovations. But it is agonizing to watch new materials technologies very gradually trickle down, over decades, from corporate supply chains to small businesses and hobbyists.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Lament on 01/11/2013 00:31:35 MST Print View

Supply and demand. If it works, the owners are entitled to make as much profit as possible. But it will be up to the market place to decide the price. If Patagonia can sell a ton of parkas at $700, they will. They might sell more goods at a lower price and maximize profits -- total dollars. But they are not going to sell anything cheap :)

However...

If smart people see an opportunity and can develop a another technology with the same results, the market (competition) will push prices down.

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Re: Re: Lament on 01/11/2013 00:57:20 MST Print View

Spoken like true free marketeer. But the reality is that patents are a government creation. In a truly free market, intellectual property would only take the form of what you can keep secret from your competitors. Why should patents be 14 years versus 5 or 50? Or even exist at all? Or should they last forever? Of course, patents work so well in the IT and smartphone industry right now, we would never want to question them. I would no argue against patent protection in general. I am only pointing out that the issue is more complex than what sounds like a libertarian talking point.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Lament on 01/11/2013 08:11:02 MST Print View

In a free market property rights are the foundation.

The value of a new product is not in the product itself, but in the mind of the person who created it -- the intellectual property.

Unlike real property, which can be physically transferred, IP is not physically transferable. The owner of IP should have ownership of patents and copyrights until death.

Physical property they can transfer, IP is not real property than can be physically transferred. Government protects all propert rights. Govt should not have the authorization to take away the IP property rights of the creater during their lifetime and distribute it to the public domain.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Lament on 01/11/2013 08:24:41 MST Print View

The government doesn't take away Intelectual Property and distribute to the public

The government enables and enforces lawsuits by one company against another company that's making some product

If you had a free market, the 2nd company would also make the product and the price would come down

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Lament on 01/11/2013 10:59:31 MST Print View

We are off topic now, but since this is fun...

So Nick are you arguing for patents to last forever? I don't think the life of the person is a feasible option, as corporations have patents too and they can "live" forever. You might want to rethink that position, for its implications are wildly radical, not just for the progression of technology and innovation for for the entire economic development of society. What if Edison had a perpetual patent on the use of electricity for lighting? I am going to drop it here, but there are plenty of free market arguments for and against patents, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patents#Criticism

Charles P
(mediauras)

Locale: Terra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: on 01/11/2013 11:00:33 MST Print View

Great review! And a great scoop, seems to me you're well within your right to post it here. Sadly, it seems the gear makers have the power to stifle conversations here. Too bad.

This is the youtube review:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDhEOHwPP3Q

Michael Cheifetz
(mike_hefetz) - MLife

Locale: Israel
IPR on 01/11/2013 11:33:13 MST Print View

Jerry

If there was no IPR and no enforcement then indeed RnD spend would drop, companies would only do theings they can protect through secrecy (many things cannot be protected this way) and the world would create less knowledge. The whole point of IPR is that you need to fully disclose the information to gain a patent - thus enabling other people to gain from it.

i agree that the length of time for a patent might not be relevant anymore - it makes a lot of sense in Pharma or automotive where Rnd costs are through the roof and time to market is also very long...but in internet/SW.....




Btw - @richard...can you point me to some of your posts talking about the WPdown tech and testing

Mike

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: IPR on 01/11/2013 12:51:35 MST Print View

Michael

What the other Michael said is pretty good - limited time patent protection

Pharma patents are ridiculous - most of the basic research is government, the pharmaceutical companies do minor tweaks

Then they do phony studies that show a medicine is marginally better (even if they have to discard all the studies that show their medicine is not effective)

Then they do heavy marketing on TV or whatever and make huge profits

I'de say the "free market" has run amok

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Link offline, as per request on 01/11/2013 16:12:16 MST Print View

Friends,


I've been talking with Patagonia, and have decided to take down the video until the jacket's launch.

They've asked me to keep the jacket underwaps to the public until then. That means, not wearing it in public.

As Richard said- this jacket just might be the warmest jacket for its weight. By being so innovative, I feel somewhat bad for so zealously blowing the lid off of this exciting new product.

This also scratches my plans to have brought this jacket with me at OR in a few weeks (plus, it's WAAAY too warm)

I noticed a few more things:

1) regardless of its country of origin, this is truly the most well made piece of outerwear that I have ever seen. Not single loose thread, all stitching is perfect. WM, Arcteryx (Canada) status.... I think each jacket might be handmade.

2) it is very compressible and very lightweight, which makes me think that Patagonia is indeed listening to the BPL community.

Maybe you can catch a glimpse of it around the hills in my (disappointingly popular) town.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Link offline, as per request on 01/11/2013 16:32:44 MST Print View

So you paid $700 for a jacket FROM THE MANUFACTURER (!) and now they won't let you wear it in public??

EH?

Obviously, I have the story wrong.







Please tell me I have this wrong.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Link offline, as per request on 01/11/2013 17:05:12 MST Print View

Hi Babak,

Maybe I missed a part of the thread but how did you manage to purchase the Parka if its not due for release until March.

Cheers,

Stephen

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Link offline, as per request on 01/11/2013 17:19:31 MST Print View

Babak,

I wouldnt feel bad for posting details of this jacket in the least. You don't owe Patagonia anything as far as I know. They didn't want it "released" yet? Who cares. Welcome to the real world Patagonia. Then they ask you to not past anymore details nor wear the $700 jacket you purchased? I think I'm missing something here.

At the very least, this situation puts Patagonia and BPL in a bad light.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 01/11/2013 17:22:50 MST.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
My guess on 01/11/2013 18:32:15 MST Print View

Although the folks at Patagonia haven't really explained, it appears that there was a miscommunication between folks who deal with customers and folks who deal with marketing.......

I have the receipt, complete with the little photo of the product (as is customary in all Patagonia online orders)..... I'll be writing a (very) extensive and thorough review of this jacket come launch, courtesy of the friends at Patagonia.

Pretty big product leak, IMO.

Good thing thing for them that I don't work for MHW, TNF, or any of those other companies that rejected my applications a few years back....

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: My guess on 01/11/2013 18:44:11 MST Print View

Well man, you definitely are in a rare spot. FWIW I think you are being extremely classy. I don't think I'd be so caring with a huge corp making a 'whoopsie' like selling a prototype. (LOFNL)

Who knows, maybe they'll give you a job. That would be paying it forward for them. ... Or giving you your money back and you becoming a tester. (at least for this jacket)

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Sooner or later on 01/11/2013 20:01:08 MST Print View

Theyll get to ya

Its not like they sent it to u for free to review

You paid full price ...

Its not like were living in a police state ;)

Brett Peugh
(bpeugh) - F - M

Locale: Midwest
eh on 01/11/2013 21:22:37 MST Print View

I say either do the reviews you want and wear it around or ask for your money back.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Re: Re: My guess on 01/11/2013 21:45:37 MST Print View

I hope they do both :). Either way, more power to Patagonia for pushing the envelope.

Also, is Patagonia even a corporation? Last I heard, it was a privately owned company.

There is a video on Encapsil currently on the Internet, watch it - it does not seem like a very "inexpensive" treatment, given the scale.

This jacket, it appears, is a BPL "wet dream"- hollere at Richard for the lclo and weight- really impressive. Kind of blows the MHW Nilas out of the water, IMO, in terms of performance- then again, it's used a bit differently. Pockets on the Patagonia are insulated in a very "neat" way.

Dane Burns would love this jacket....

Peter Fokkinga
(nitto)

Locale: the Netherlands
wanted: state-of-the-market report of "dry down" on 01/12/2013 07:56:30 MST Print View

Speaking of reviews, I would really like to see a BPL state of the marked report about the various "dry down" offerings. From Nikwax Down Proof to Encapsil and everything in between. Published in three parts would be best IMO.

The first part is all about inventarization: what products are (soon) available? And for each product information from the manufacturer. For example: in what quality (cuin) available, whether (or when) available to cottage industries, which companies are (planning) to use it in their garments/sleeping bags etc. And if laboratory tests are available (like the PDF on the zpacks website) by all means include them!

Methinks this part could be written quite quickly if BPL has good relations with those manufacturers.

The second part should be all about how this stuff performs in the real world. Yes, it is impressive to see the difference between treated and untreated down when added to water, but I am not in the habit to go swimming in a down vest... Probably difficult to test objectively, but having a "don't bother / noticeable effect / impressive" verdict compared to regular down (per treatment) from the BPL staff after actually using it would be good enough for me (how's that for a vote of confidence ;-))

This report would take months, for starters you need to acquire jackets, quilts and whatnot using the stuff...

A third part would be about durability of the treatments, but that's a long way off (18 months at least).

How about it, would this be worthwhile and feasible?

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: My guess on 01/12/2013 09:02:45 MST Print View

This circus story just gets better and better.

Be careful, Patagonia might put a hit on you....

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: wanted: state-of-the-market report of "dry down" on 01/12/2013 09:09:24 MST Print View

It would Definitely perk things up for folks Peter.

My wife worked on this technology a couple of year ago and she explained to me how it works.

Jacob Smith
(Wrongturn) - MLife

Locale: The Soda
Re: on 01/12/2013 09:35:10 MST Print View

Babak has gotten a sneak peak, and some sob probably is now unemployed.

a b
(Ice-axe)
Re: Re: Re: Re: My guess on 01/12/2013 09:41:29 MST Print View

I'd say Patagonia has done a brilliant job at marketing by selling you this coat.

Look at the discussion already and you have the only jacket with technology we can't get our hands on yet.
Now you begin posting here about it but then BPL deletes it and then the manufacturer asks you to stop.

We are supposed to believe: The technology is SO good they don't want to spoil the surprise..

I don't have a TV but i know a commercial when i see one.

Hmm.. if it's so good, why the marketing theatrics?

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Eh, on 01/12/2013 10:47:22 MST Print View

I think it is more like (We have spent millions developing this jacket, and don't want our [potentially] multimillion dollar marketing campaign being spoiled).

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Eh, on 01/12/2013 11:09:17 MST Print View

How are they bribing you Babak, in garments or cash?

Peter Fokkinga
(nitto)

Locale: the Netherlands
effect of moisture regain on clo value? on 01/12/2013 12:09:33 MST Print View

Oh come on folks, give Babak a break... If a company would contact you saying they screwed up and politely asking you to keep quiet for a while, wouldn't you humour them? I know I would have (when asked nicely, a sudden deletion of forum posts would have had a different effect on me).

Anyway, Encapsil may be the best thing since sliced bread, but I am not willing to spend that amount of money on it. So I am more interested in the other "dry downs" out there.

And I found what Richard wrote (33% improvement in moisture regain when exposed to very humid air) very interesting. The one thing that escapes me though is what the effect of moisture regain is on isolation (clo) value.

Hopefully Richard is not under NDA and can expand on his research? Ideally I would like to read something like "when exposed to 100%RH for an hour the clo for untreated down decreased by 50% whereas the clo for treated down decreased by 20% under the same condition".

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 01/12/2013 12:18:52 MST Print View

Three pages of postings on this?

Me thinks maybe we need to get out on trail!

The fact that I'm looking at this thread indicates that I need to get out! If it weren't for this lousy weather ... rain yesterday that should have been 6" of snow (in January, no less!).

Maybe I should hop over to CHAFF and ask Mr. Tatersall about that.

Patagonia will have their big hype rollout. Until then there's really nothing to know until it is available for a lot of folks to field test and Richard to do his valuable lab tests.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Hmmmm on 01/12/2013 15:59:30 MST Print View

Honestly, had I not been introduced to the entire "outdoor industry" by a Patagonia employee, I would be posting more reviews.

I actually wanted to wear this jacket to the Outdoor Retailer show in two weeks, just to "give the finger" to the type of culture that surrounds that show. The "who do you work for" and constant glances at badges are some of the (many) reasons why OR needs to change (in addition to the completely prick attitude of the folks who organize the event).

Patagonia, y'all are on top of your game- as a privately held company, I prefer to give you my dollar over MHW, TNF or even Arcteryx. The other brands that are owned by corporations rarely make the effort, if at all, to change practices within the industry- whether it is assembling your Merino 3 base layers in the U.S., give back to the planet (seriously, how many companies even give anything back?), or simply starting a recycling program that both reduces carbon footprints and increases demand for your products.

Most importantly, Patagonia has HOOKED IT UP over the years, whether it was via warranty or just some cool rep. Upon reflection, I have more qualms with former employers, than I do Patagonia.

While I purchased this jacket, SOLELY for the purpose of reviewing/exposing it, I feel pretty bad about trumpeting the jacket.

Rest assured, I have written confirmation from Patagonia that NO ONE will be fired as as result of me purchasing this jacket. Patagonia wants to comp me for it, in return for me keeping it under wraps until it March 1. I hope they give me job :)

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Hmmmm on 01/12/2013 16:22:23 MST Print View

Babak,

All industry shows are the same whether its outdoors, IT, Pharma or others.
snobbery in corporate office happens also, employees are at the top, long term contractors are next and temps at the bottom rung.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
aha on 01/12/2013 17:04:14 MST Print View

Rest assured, I have written confirmation from Patagonia that NO ONE will be fired as as result of me purchasing this jacket. Patagonia wants to comp me for it, in return for me keeping it under wraps until it March 1. I hope they give me job :)


700 dollahs of patagucciness might buy my silence too ;)

Mike Stromsoe
(phstudio) - F - M

Locale: So. Cal.
Why is even for sale now? on 01/12/2013 17:12:42 MST Print View

Am I missing something here? Why in the world would Patagonia offer a jacket for sale to the public with "top secret" proprietary information now, if they want to keep it under wraps until March 1st? I don' get it.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Perspective on 01/12/2013 17:30:59 MST Print View

I'm still just entertained watching Babak vacillate wildly between guilt over exposing the jacket and rebellion against Patagonia and the culture of outdoors gear. Show it off or hide it, who cares?

I already saw the video. It's a puffy jacket. I've seen a lot of puffy jackets. I don't know why everyone is flipping out... including Patagonia. I get that there's money involved from competition, but you can't sew an exact copy from a Youtube video and you can't manufacture one on a competitive scale before March anyways.

My 2¢

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Ha ha on 01/12/2013 19:33:57 MST Print View

Glad my indecision was so apparent. Y'all are one of the best online communities out there. Kudos

Evan Daniel
(superalpine) - MLife
Re: PM me if you want my link to a review on the jacket on 01/16/2013 22:19:33 MST Print View

Super curious to watch your review. How do I get the link?

Ryan Bressler
(ryanbressler) - F
Take the Plunge on 01/17/2013 11:33:19 MST Print View

You realize you are now obligated to jump into a pond wearing the thing like the guy reviewing the brooks range for trail space did:

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/brooks-range/mojave-jacket/

;)

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Take the Plunge on 01/17/2013 16:36:03 MST Print View

I just looked at Ryan, talk about talking one for the team ;-)

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Re: Re: PM me if you want my link to a review on the jacket on 01/17/2013 18:03:23 MST Print View

Evan,

I am trying to make good on my word to Patagonia. The video is going to remain private until March 1, or until told otherwise.

Kudos to the design team on this piece ;)

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Encapsil Launch at the Boulder Store on 02/23/2013 00:13:24 MST Print View

I'll be wearin mine to the event...

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
Re: Encapsil Launch at the Boulder Store on 02/23/2013 00:21:19 MST Print View

^ a little cliché.. no?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Encapsil Launch at the Boulder Store on 02/23/2013 00:39:55 MST Print View

Babak,

What is the launch date?

Please provide us a detailed report along with pictues.

They have just taken down three related Vimeo promotional videos... weird!

capture

Edited by richard295 on 02/23/2013 00:46:02 MST.

Tom Lyons
(towaly) - F

Locale: Smoky Mtns.
Aeon Clad on 02/23/2013 03:55:09 MST Print View

This technology is from Aeon Clad, and Patagonia has bought into the company.
Aeon Clad is an Austin Texas based company.
Patagonia now holds a 15% stake in Aeon Clad.
I'm not sure if this is enough to guarantee that no other company gets to buy the license to the process. It may be possible for other companies to license it.
The name "Encapsil" is just a trademarked name for the Aeon Clad process which is used by Patagonia for its marketing purposes.

Link:
http://www.odrmag.com/productstechnology/1651-patagonia-triples-down-and-invests-in-aeonclad-coating.html

Edited by towaly on 02/23/2013 03:58:11 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Encapsil Launch at the Boulder Store on 02/23/2013 07:36:44 MST Print View

Maybe leaking video and then taking it down is clever marketing ploy to get people's interest?

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Re: Re: Re: Encapsil Launch at the Boulder Store on 02/23/2013 13:44:44 MST Print View

I don't work for Patagonia….. I used to work for Backcountry.com in college and have since started an online gear "review" series, purely out of interest.

Someone on this thread, however, IS an employee of Patagonia and actually works under Eric Rice- the lead designer for this jacket….. (funny, the things you can learn from a few Google searches… kind of like how I found out about the existence of this jacket in the first place). Evan, if you are reading this- I would love to work for y'all…

The video probably wasn't leaked intentionally- it was a mistake. Patagonia is has been planning a very special launch for the product…. which goes on sale 3/1/13…. they didnt even have it at the Winter OR show- but rather, had photos of their climbing ambassadors wearing it…..

I have personal contacts with designers from TNF, MHW, and Arcteryx- I made good on my word to keep this jacket under wraps…. I hope Patagonia appreciates my integrity…

Also, Patagonia OWNS the trademark to Encapsil….

But this guy owns the www.encapsildown.com URL…. :)

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
It's just a jacket. on 02/23/2013 14:20:42 MST Print View

Integrity means doing the right thing without talking about it. You remind us of your "integrity" every single time you post.

If I were Patagonia, I'd have a hard time even remotely thinking about hiring you when you leaked their video, then confusingly redacted, then spent months debating the morality, philosophy, and engineering of said jacket and the leak, finally culminating in a job request that is as potentially unprofessional as possible. It's all trouble to me. Nobody wants to hire someone unstable or unpredictable, and you flip-flop on a weekly basis.

This whole episode surrounding the jacket is annoying. It's just Dri-Down. It's not the second coming of the backpacking world. It isn't even as big a deal to me as the Ghost Whisperer series from MH. The only person who's worked up about it appears to be you.

Peeved,
Max

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
Ambitions on 02/23/2013 14:38:35 MST Print View

"...I hope Patagonia appreciates my integrity..."

Babak, I appreciate the information you have shared with us about Encapsil. But "integrity" is not a word that comes to mind for me when I read your posts, in general. I am sure there is, as you say, information about Evan's association with Patagonia on the internet. And under some circumstances it would be appropriate for him to disclose this affiliation in a post to these forums. But your disclosure of his affiliation is in poor form, in my opinion.

The impression that I (and several others I've spoken to) get from your posts, in general, is one of opportunism and immaturity.

Forgive the pointed wording of this post. It isn't meant to be hostile. I work in academia, and I've found it difficult to learn how to communicate with collaborators, funding organizations, etc. I'm socially awkward and bad at networking, and I have appreciated the feedback I've received about the way I communicate. Hopefully this input is at least interesting and perhaps helpful to you.

Edited by ckrusor on 02/23/2013 14:51:14 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Ambitions on 02/23/2013 15:56:12 MST Print View

"Forgive the pointed wording of this post. It isn't meant to be hostile. I work in academia, and I've found it difficult to learn how to communicate with collaborators, funding organizations, etc. I'm socially awkward and bad at networking..."

Colin, perhaps this would help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cuoxa59jxI

Richard Fischel
(RICKO) - F
i've been following on 02/23/2013 16:23:58 MST Print View

this post without replying, although i may have more than once shaken my head. is this the best post on backpakinglight, probably not. is it the worst post, certainly not that either. a guy tries to do the right thing (even if he’s not 100% sure what the right thing is) and people give him sh!t for that - please.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Lol on 02/24/2013 00:44:33 MST Print View

I pay to be a member of this forum, and then my posts become censored, without being notified...... Perhaps if RJ or Patagonia would have contacted me initially- I wouldn't have been so keen to have shared any videos with anyone on this forum.

If you don't want to hear about new gear, you don't have to read abou it- but MANY people on this forum come here to read about the latest and greatest in outdoor gear.

Perhaps I am the only one who finds a revolutionary plasma coating for down more interesting that someone's mediocre tests on winter backpacking/ or searching for the "perfect hiking fleece".....

I have nothing to "gain" from this ordeal.... Other than Patagonia was kind enough to refund me for the jacket in return for keeping it under wraps.

Having one of their designers, try to "bait me" into posting a link to the video, after I've already confirmed with his superiors that I wouldn't- is in poor taste. Shame on you folks for the type of "reprimand"...... I am sharing information with you people- whether you appreciate it or not....

Perhaps I haven't done an exceptional job of explaining the backstory- but essentially my posts were censored because I shared some "embargoed information"...... B!tch please, I bought a jacket on my own dime from a company that sold it to me- whether there was a "mixup" on their end is to be determined....

And Max, I suggest doing a bit more "research" on other types of gear before making such mischaracterizations....

If I was immature and opportunistic, I'd have put the damn thing on eBay.....

Listen, I go to OR every year, to learn more about the upcoming products and take the time to conduct interviews with the designers/reps THAT ARE SHARED. Some of these videos, get thousands of views. I don't profit off it these videos, or gear reviews- they are done on my own time.....

Quite honestly, I am really disappointed with the reaction from some folks on here...... but haters are going to hate....

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
And FYI on 02/24/2013 00:51:29 MST Print View

I've been solicited by nearly a dozen outdoor publications and blogs to provide them a review of the jacket- and have rejected all requests.

Be "peeved", irked, or make a generalization about my character- but very, very few of you know me personally (some of the folks on here do).... I suggest refraining from passing judgement until taking the time to read a bit more about the "situation".

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
:) on 02/24/2013 01:10:47 MST Print View

Seem like a little Patagucci fan boy to me..

Get the gear bro, get the gear!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3SFqV0hMyo

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Again, get to know me.... on 02/24/2013 01:18:04 MST Print View

I lived .2 miles from the SLC outlet while in college, and worked at Backcountry.... I have only paid full price for one piece of outerwear.... from any company.... (Down sweater hoody, which was stolen from my car years later)..... fanboy- I think not- someone who knows a lot about their gear (because he has sold tens of thousands of dollars worth if it)- absolutely.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
But.... on 02/24/2013 01:22:00 MST Print View

That video was pure gold. Portlandia is one of the most entertaining shows currently on television ...

Andrew Manies
(amanies)

Locale: SF Bay Area
Product released? on 02/27/2013 15:56:02 MST Print View

So much for March 1:

http://www.patagonia.com/patagonia-encapsil-down-belay-parka.wso

Also see:

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/patagonia-encapsil-down-belay-parka

and

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/02/patagonia-parka/

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
RE "NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka" on 02/27/2013 17:37:53 MST Print View

Today is the first time I've seen this thread. I viewed Patagonia's website and it looks like a nice coat- but the $700 price tag puts it beyond my reach. On the bright side, many technologies drop in price over time. Hopefully that will be the case with this one, assuming it does what they claim and maintains it's loft and warmth even after a soaking.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: RE "NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka" on 02/27/2013 18:12:35 MST Print View

The Technology will definitely drop in price after a while.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: RE "NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka" on 02/27/2013 18:59:27 MST Print View

The price includes a biannual inspection and cleaning in liquid CO2 to insure no degradation of the down coating. The price is more reasonable (but not cheap - smile) when this no-charge life-time service is factored into the garment price.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: RE "NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka" on 02/27/2013 19:11:43 MST Print View

They are not making much fanfare about the "free" cleaning, it sounds more like a service contract

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: RE "NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka" on 02/27/2013 23:43:00 MST Print View

So cleaning it degrades the down coating substantially?

Doest the same happen with DWR down?

Nick Larsen
(stingray4540) - F

Locale: South Bay
RE "NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka" on 02/28/2013 02:18:07 MST Print View

If it's really as waterproof as advertised, plus the extra fill power (1000), this is kind of exciting. It will be even more exciting when it's available to other makers. Would love to see a cottage company use this in a 9oz hooded sweater. Waterproof down skaha plus? And sleeping bags could no doubt benefit!

Sucks, 'cause I'm in the market to lighten my gear, and would hate to drop money on a down jacket, just to have this be available 5 years later... then again, it might be 5 years, before I can get permission to make any new purchases anyway.

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
FYI Down Fill Amount on 02/28/2013 07:24:14 MST Print View

They do NOT have that information.
This is from a Patagonia "Live Chat" individual on the online Patagonia Website.

Edited by KENLARSON on 02/28/2013 10:12:02 MST.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Mr. nisley on 03/01/2013 11:07:41 MST Print View

Richard has done a few calculations about the fill weight of the down and has estimated an lclo...

~6-7, correct?

Truly though, from my extensive testing, it's the warmest jacket for its weight.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Mr. nisley on 03/01/2013 12:20:04 MST Print View

Babak,

I will put together a normal lab environment estimate based on reverse engineering the design shortly. I have more data to provide a better estimate this iteration.
What I really want to see is how your jacket clo value varies at different humidity levels compared to un-treated down. This set of tests would require clo value testing in an environment chamber. Can I measure your Patagonia Belay jacket clo value, in varying humidity levels, sometime in the nebulous future?

Edited by richard295 on 03/01/2013 16:28:21 MST.

Raymond Estrella
(rayestrella) - MLife

Locale: Northern Minnesota
Encapsil angst on 03/01/2013 16:16:50 MST Print View

What a wild thread. Just my takes.

If this stuff is as good as they say I am stoked, but will never buy one as the price point is nuts. But get it down to maybe a slight premium? OK, even a reasonable premium. I’ll bite.

If you buy a piece of gear retail, or even pro-deal that does not come with any NDA then you should be allowed to talk about it all you want.

To rip Ryan for not “talking” about beta gear just shows that you don’t know anything about the industry. But spend a decade or two backpacking and getting a reputation as someone that knows gear and really uses it and maybe you will get asked to be a beta tester too. Then look at the 4-page form you sign saying that you will keep your mouth and camera case shut. ;-)

Richard, I look forward to your findings so much. I really respect what you do for the community.

Personally I love the way that this new technology “seems” to be going. I have yet to touch any myself, just have seen the displays at the OR Show and follow the web hype like everybody else. But I am looking forward to it.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Mr. nisley on 03/02/2013 02:04:09 MST Print View

Babak,

The iclo is 6.48.

Edited by richard295 on 03/02/2013 02:04:49 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Encapsil angst on 03/02/2013 02:05:34 MST Print View

Ray,

Thank you!

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Encapsil angst on 03/02/2013 04:09:46 MST Print View

Maybe we'll find that the process involves force feeding Chinese geese a deadly silicone laced feed and there will be a consumer backlash as with goose liver pâté ;) Hords of protesters will assemble outside Patacucci Central and demand their humane treatment.

I wonder what this stuff is like for the Chinese workers environmentally? Oooh, the intrigue!

"My name is Bond, Yvonne Bond...." Q has secret down in his workshop now.

R S
(rps76) - F
Encapsil on 03/10/2013 11:46:55 MDT Print View

I find it interesting that Patagonia is only carrying this in the Boulder store and the NYC Meat Packing store. You know, because there are A LOT of hardcore outdoorsman who NEED this jacket living in NYC. #hipstersinpatagucci

Andrew Manies
(amanies)

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Store locations on 03/10/2013 11:54:26 MDT Print View

They also apparently sold it in the Chamonix store (France) and in one of their Japanese locations (Rick would know for certain, since he posted photos). But yes, there was lots of chuckling at the San Francisco store about them selling it at the new, trendy NYC Meatpacking district store, considering that Patagonia's current mission is to discourage people from buying what they don't really intend to use for its specific purpose. None of the SF employees had even seen one of the parkas in person.

Brian Abram
(boglins)

Locale: The South
Loft? on 03/11/2013 17:05:38 MDT Print View

Babak,

Could you tell me the measured loft in the body of the Encapsil? I understand Richard thinks it has 8.7 ounces of 1000 fill, but I'm just curious how densely it's packed.

Edited by boglins on 03/11/2013 17:06:33 MDT.

Andrew Manies
(amanies)

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Loft on 03/11/2013 17:22:02 MDT Print View

Brian,

Babak can obviously reply as well, but for what it's worth my parka has about 1.24-1.5" of loft throughout. Certain parts of the parka, like the sleeves and neck, are stuffed more densely with down. The baffle height appears to be as little as 1/2" to 3/4", which was a bit of a surprise.

Hope you find this helpful.

Best,
A

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Loft on 03/11/2013 17:30:13 MDT Print View

Hi Andrew,

Is that single layer loft?

Cheers,

Stephen

Andrew Manies
(amanies)

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Loft on 03/11/2013 17:40:14 MDT Print View

Stephen,

Yes, sorry, that's single-layer loft. There are certain baffles more heavily filled with down, for instance by the left chest pocket. And then there are the less heavily filled baffles by the right chest and right hip, which appear to have about 1/2" of loft. Compared to other down jackets I have, the Patagonia is filled much more densely with down. As a result it's also very resilient to the touch, bouncing back to full loft almost immediately even after strong pressure is applied.

A

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Loft on 03/11/2013 18:10:44 MDT Print View

Cheers Andrew,

I am surprised that it does not have more loft.

Brian Abram
(boglins)

Locale: The South
Thanks on 03/11/2013 19:00:45 MDT Print View

This does indeed help a lot. It seems that Patagonia significantly overfilled the jacket. 3 or 3.5 inches of double sided loft is comparable to a lot of other jackets. According to Richard, the total fill is more important to a point. Interesting to see that idea apparently being used.

An overfilled, smaller baffled jacket would be less bulky and better for actual belaying, in my opinion and experience.

The Nunatak Skaha Plus' specs state 3/4" baffles and 5 ounces of fill in a medium. I wonder what asking for 4 or 5 ounces of 900fp overfill in that jacket would result in.

Edited by boglins on 03/11/2013 19:08:59 MDT.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Re: Re: Loft on 03/11/2013 19:18:31 MDT Print View

I have only seen/handled the small size but I had the impression that it had at least as much total loft as my Rab Infinity Endurance, ~3.5" at the shoulder. This jacket is much longer in the torso/neck and arms than the Infinity though.

Encapsil Belay Parka

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Thanks on 03/11/2013 19:20:41 MDT Print View

I think I am spoiled by my Gooses Feet Parka which has similar specs but twice the loft.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Re: Thanks on 03/11/2013 20:19:59 MDT Print View

Stephen, do you have an OEM link to your jacket?

I might like to buy a down jacket with similar specs but lofts to ~7" for my trip to catch the auroras this year. I tried a Bing/Google "Gooses Feet Parka" internet search but the only matching hits were for your Gear Swap ads here on BPL.

Andrew Manies
(amanies)

Locale: SF Bay Area
Loft at shoulder on 03/11/2013 20:59:21 MDT Print View

This jacket defies easy comparison with most other down jackets only because it is so densely filled with down. If laid flat on the floor, the loft at the shoulder could easily measure 4-5", but that's only because the top and bottom aren't completely touching. Instead, they're held slightly apart by the firmness of the filled baffles and presumably by the differential cut. That's why I gave single-layer loft as a more useful measurement (I thought).

By comparison, the other down jackets I have (MH Ghost Whisperer, Montbell Mirage, and an older Marmot Plasma Sweater) seem loftier but less densely filled, if that makes sense. The Patagonia is undeniably warmer than any of them, with its generous insulation at the neck being a particular strength. As Brian wrote, perhaps Patagonia is testing the theory that down can be somewhat compressed (overstuffed) and provide increased warmth with less overall volume.

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
How much stuffing is too much stuffing? on 03/11/2013 21:13:28 MDT Print View

This question probably has been answered in other reviews or threads, but all this has be wondering. What is the optimal density of fill for a down item (e.g., jacket, sleeping bag, etc), controlling for down quality (e.g., 800 fill, etc.), loft, etc.

At what point does overstuffing start to do more harm than good. I assume there is some sort of weight trade off. But what other trade offs are there.

Stuart .
(lotuseater) - M

Locale: 40°N,-105°W (Near enough)
GooseFeet Gear on 03/11/2013 21:53:26 MDT Print View

@Rick - You're looking for goosefeetgear.com. He doesn't have any down jackets listed on his products page right now, but much of what he offers is custom work.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: GooseFeet Gear on 03/12/2013 01:55:02 MDT Print View

Ok, thanks Stuart. Nix to that then.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: Thanks on 03/12/2013 05:01:33 MDT Print View

HI Rick,

As Stuart mentioned it was a custom order.

Ben is a pleasure to work with.

He was going to make me a new one with a bit more down and more pockets but as I had no interest on gear swap on the existing one I left it off.

I used in in -13f around camp recently and it was uber warm.

Cheers,

Stephen

Edited by stephenm on 03/12/2013 05:02:47 MDT.

David Franzen
(dfranzen) - F

Locale: Germany
Re: How much stuffing is too much stuffing? on 03/12/2013 07:28:40 MDT Print View

Richard Niseley has covered this topic a while back.
If I remember correctly, overstuffing gives warmth-increases up to about 250% (a total of 3.5 times the amount of optimally lofted down), but your "rates of return" diminish. I.e. The first oz of extra down gives you a greater warmth increases than the later ones. After 250% overstuffing there is no warmth increase.
According to that the optimal down density for warmth/weight is 0% overfill, but of course this is lab testing, not field testing.
I have the link saved, but can't access it right now. Maybe someone else can post it or correct me if i am wrong.

Brian Abram
(boglins)

Locale: The South
Discussion on overfill on 03/12/2013 08:06:34 MDT Print View

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=68798

For my application, climbing, bulk matters. This has all made me really interested in having someone like Goose Feet build me a 3/4" baffled parka with around 100% overfill (~9.5 oz of 900 fill) that I would hope to see around 17 ounces of total weight. The best I can tell, the small, if any, reduction in insulation compared to the same amount of down fully lofted would be worth it to me.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Discussion on overfill on 03/12/2013 08:40:37 MDT Print View

Brian,

Ben could certainly make a Parka like thay.
Beware though he uses Ul materials to save weight. For belay use a burlier down parka/synthetic may be better.

Cheers,

Stephen

Ryan Bressler
(ryanbressler) - F
Loft: Overstuffing vs Wind on 03/12/2013 11:39:21 MDT Print View

I have become convinced that loft at the shoulders is a particularly useless measurement.

I posted a thread a while back where I was surprised that a new peak XV didn't have more measured loft then an old montbell alpine parka despite having something like twice as much higher fill down. After using the peak for a winter of BC skiing including plenty of time hanging out on Northern Rockies ridge lines I can say that they aren't even in the same ball park.

The Peak has a much more "resilient" or "stiff" loft. This combined with the burlier outer fabric makes it a much nicer coat to use as a booster/belay/top layer at rest stops in alpine conditions. See also the recent BPL article on wind compression of insulation.

This may be less of an issue if you plan to wear your down layer under a shell and can camp in sheltered spots but I would hope that the new patagonia garment is intended for alpine use and designed to do well in high winds etc.

Brian Abram
(boglins)

Locale: The South
UL fabric on 03/12/2013 12:12:07 MDT Print View

In all honesty, I've personally never had much of a problem using lighter materials for heavy insulation. I've destroyed a few shells while flailing up chimneys and aiding up Long's, but pretty much the only time I'll have my belay jacket on I won't really be doing much that will tear it up. My biggest concern would be stuffing it into the top of my pack on top of other stuff.

FWIW, the Encapsil's shell is apparently Pertex Endurance UL. I have a FF Jackorack in that material that I climb in.

I wonder what the effect of moisture (from the outside or from my sweat) would be on a 100% overfilled jacket. I have no idea, but the first two ideas that come to mind are that a denser down cluster would seem in my brain to be more likely to trap/absorb water. But at the same time, because it's so dense, will it lose loft and warmth the same way? No clue. Put aside the argument that moisture is probably an overblown risk most of the time.

Edited by boglins on 03/12/2013 12:18:08 MDT.

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Re: Re: How much stuffing is too much stuffing? on 03/12/2013 13:49:21 MDT Print View

Thanks David and Brian.

Edited by mwgillenwater on 03/12/2013 13:51:55 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
fill on 03/13/2013 12:13:30 MDT Print View

has patagucci indicated why some of the chambers on the right side have less fill than the left?

id love to hear the reason for that design ....

Andrew Manies
(amanies)

Locale: SF Bay Area
Uneven fill on 03/13/2013 12:35:39 MDT Print View

Hi Eric,

I returned my jacket to the Patagonia service center in Reno for that very reason, and in fact no one has been able to explain the uneven fill. A Patagonia tech who responded to my original complaint replied that it was impossible for there to be any design flaws with this garment. When I tried to explain that I wasn't labeling it a design flaw, but rather a production glitch or QC issue, she said she very much doubted it.

What's even more amazing is that they're unwilling to add more down, saying they're unable to access the closed baffle, and further that they have no "extra" Encapsil down on the premises.

Makes you wonder...

A

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Uneven fill on 03/13/2013 12:39:04 MDT Print View

>A Patagonia tech who responded to my original complaint replied that it was impossible for there to be any design flaws with this garment. When I tried to explain that I wasn't labeling it a design flaw, but rather a production glitch or QC issue, she said she very much doubted it.

Now THAT'S funny!

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Uneven fill on 03/13/2013 12:45:07 MDT Print View

thanks andrew for the update ...

that shouldnt happen with a limited edition flagship product IMO .... no matter who makes it ... a 1000 run 700$ jacket should be rigorously inspected prior to sale

many new products have design issues in the first batch ... denial isnt a good step, just admit it, fix it and improve it ...

i wonder if they resell your parka now to someone else ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 03/13/2013 12:47:42 MDT.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Uneven fill on 03/13/2013 13:00:19 MDT Print View

So if somones parka gets a hole in it Patagonia will put normal down back in as they have no encapsil down left.

Oh, they can't as they cannot access the baffle.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/17/2013 22:23:31 MDT Print View

I see it didn't take too long for one to pop up on eBay. $699 (they are so chicken) men's large. ( and I have no association)

"Patagonia Encapsil™ Down Belay Parka - Brand new, unused - Original tags and box

This is the best down parka in the world! Serial number: 0433 - only 1000 of these awesome parkas were made. Free lifetime cleaning by Patagonia - including shipping both ways

Here is Patagonia's description

Guaranteed genuine Patagonia - Guaranteed same day, insured shipping

See my feedback - buy with confidence!"

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/18/2013 06:38:04 MDT Print View

0433 is the number on my Parka, his must be a fake ;-)

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Dri Down videos on 03/19/2013 22:17:32 MDT Print View

They not Encapsil, and they are only crudely scientific, but some instructive videos from ProLite gear. Kudos to them for going the extra mile to look at the benefits of treated down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0BK-THs0W8&feature=em-uploademail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnp7g11dKEw&feature=em-uploademail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7Ni3HW8C2o&feature=em-uploademail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1qMizz4LtA&feature=em-uploademail

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Re: NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/23/2013 20:01:10 MDT Print View

"I see it didn't take too long for one to pop up on eBay. $699 (they are so chicken) men's large. ( and I have no association)"

SOLD for $862.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/23/2013 20:13:42 MDT Print View

"SOLD for $862"

I thought that was a BIN. Patagonia must be jealous :)

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/23/2013 21:59:32 MDT Print View

Wonder if theres even fill on that one ;)

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/30/2013 17:41:02 MDT Print View

There's one on eBay now for $1194.00 and counting!

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NEW Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/30/2013 18:24:46 MDT Print View

Utter madness.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
EBay Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/31/2013 20:21:54 MDT Print View

So 0153 medium sold for $1194. Now there is another medium 0144 starting at $999

http://tinyurl.com/cyd77gv

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: EBay Patagonia Encapsil ("Dry Down") Parka on 03/31/2013 20:57:54 MDT Print View

Don't you just love supply and demand :-)

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Patagonia Encapsil back for Fall 2013 on 09/05/2013 18:24:13 MDT Print View

I wonder how the new numbers will iterate?

http://tinyurl.com/my2bx5f

And for the less ambitious,

http://tinyurl.com/lvos32b

I saw this jacket in their store Wed. Sweet!

Edited by rmjapan on 09/05/2013 18:25:19 MDT.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Patagonia Encapsil back for Fall 2013 on 09/05/2013 18:39:26 MDT Print View

I am glad the Encapsil Jacket sold out as if I purchased one my wife would shoot me, she is just getting over me purchasing a McHale pack.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Patagonia Encapsil back for Fall 2013 on 09/05/2013 18:56:02 MDT Print View

She can't get mad if she doesn't know.

Every man should have a source of WDK money.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: Patagonia Encapsil back for Fall 2013 on 09/05/2013 18:59:59 MDT Print View

I do indeed Nick its my PayPal account :-)

Edited by stephenm on 09/06/2013 10:41:39 MDT.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Not the Encapsil Escapades again! on 09/05/2013 21:03:16 MDT Print View

I didn't realize how much I didn't miss this whole shebang until it resurrected... Thanks guys...

Adam Klagsbrun
(klags) - MLife

Locale: Northeast US
Feedback? on 09/17/2013 15:27:21 MDT Print View

So did anyone use one in the mountains yet? Besides all the back and forth about ethics, let's get down to the jacket... did it perform? How warm was it in comparison to others? How did it handle sweat and use? How durable was it? Has anyone sent one back to Patagonia to be cleaned after use? I'm more interested in the performance of the jacket after it got introduced to the market. Seeing that they just re-released it for this season, it would make sense to do a follow up/review, no?