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quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming)
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Kevin Burton
(burtonator) - F

Locale: norcal
quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/07/2013 21:07:41 MST Print View

Here's a great video of some kids filming a moose while they're running a quadcopter in norway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6mupfi21Ys&feature=player_embedded

I suspect this will start to be adopted for backpacking. I could REALLY see this being used.

- scout up ahead of the trail to see what the terrain looks like

- fly around a lake/river/stream to find the best fishing spots.

- record AWESOME video of your trip

- find the best camping spots.

... etc.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/07/2013 21:11:51 MST Print View

Would the no motorized vehicle rules apply? Hope so. I could see them being REALLY annoying.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozcdcn9udv4

Edited by kthompson on 01/07/2013 21:15:58 MST.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Sayonara on 01/07/2013 21:24:51 MST Print View

I see a future with me taking a few of these out with some rocks if I hear them buzzing around MY wilderness...Rambo

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Sayonara on 01/07/2013 21:49:40 MST Print View

Folding Wrist Rocket
50 3/8" ball bearings

Don't care what the extra weight comes to.

Andy F
(AndyF) - M

Locale: Midwest/Midatlantic
Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/07/2013 21:54:41 MST Print View

Which model can carry the most gear? :)

Mike W
(rcmike) - MLife

Locale: California
Dragonfly on 01/07/2013 22:21:12 MST Print View

This recently funded project has a twist on the quadricopter concept with a silent robot dragonfly that can be outfitted with a camera package.

Dragonfly

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Great. on 01/07/2013 22:26:03 MST Print View

Great. Lets go harass some wildlife.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Dragonfly on 01/07/2013 22:36:10 MST Print View

That is cool. Hate that spy on people aspect though.

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
haha on 01/07/2013 23:37:10 MST Print View

"I suspect this will start to be adopted for backpacking. I could REALLY see this being used."


I couldn't disagree more..

Kevin Burton
(burtonator) - F

Locale: norcal
Re: Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/08/2013 00:15:24 MST Print View

I totally didn't think of that!

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
Helicopter Shots on 01/08/2013 07:21:54 MST Print View

I don't see it as a "backpacking item", but the cool thing about these is how affordable they've made "helicopter shots" for video production. Imagine a movie...er, video that describes sections of the PCT and includes some sweeping overview shots -- and they won't involve a chopper ripping around the back country nor the expense.

These have been used heavily in outdoor action sports in the last year and some. Now with prices and tech making them more available, there are quad-copters under a hundred bucks with low-end, 30fps cameras built in. The cool part is, a 60fps GoPro is enough for really great video and those don't weigh much.

Mike R
(redpoint) - F

Locale: British Columbia
for climbing/mountaineering on 01/08/2013 09:04:48 MST Print View

I can't see carrying one of these backpacking, but for mountaineers launching an assault on a large, new mountain route, this would provide some great beta if pictures aren't/weren't available. It would be a great base camp tool. It would definitely remove some of the 'adventure' from the sport, but the same could be said about reading a detailed guide report or listening to the weather report.

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
Mammut 150 Trango Tower on 01/08/2013 09:26:20 MST Print View

A good example of how they are being used to capture jaw-dropping mountain footage.
Mammut 150 Trango Tower

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Surveilance Society on 01/08/2013 09:59:39 MST Print View

I was on a midnight bike race a few months back, standing in the crowd and waiting for the starting horn. I start to detect a faint buzzing noise, turn, and find a dual rotor jet black police drone hovering about two meters over my head. A little black plastic bubble on the bottom was watching me...
Of course everyone gave it the finger.
I know they're discussing arming them with tear gas and rubber bullets for "crowd control".

Lovely.

I can't wait to buy mine and get out into the Anza Borrego backcountry on a trip with Nick Gatel and use it to chase down herds of bighorn for a blog photo, scout ahead for water sources in canyons, and get some exciting HD footage of us walking with really small packs on.

And I'll finally be able to see what the hell my neighbor's been building behind that garage....

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Better not send them out after the Glorious Twelfth on 01/08/2013 10:32:18 MST Print View

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Twelfth


We already have drones here from the Border Patrol. A brave new world.


River runners could scout.

Climbers might need a new phrase to describe their climbs.

Instead of onsight, or redpoint etc. Drone'd?

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Surveilance Society on 01/08/2013 11:25:38 MST Print View

Agreed, Craig. My kneejerk reaction was distaste shading into repulsion.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Surveilance Society on 01/08/2013 11:41:58 MST Print View

"I can't wait to buy mine and get out into the Anza Borrego backcountry on a trip with Nick Gatel and use it to chase down herds of bighorn for a blog photo, scout ahead for water sources in canyons, and get some exciting HD footage of us walking with really small packs on."

Looks like we might need really big packs to carry that thing along with spare batteries. While were at it we could bring some iPhones, iPads, solar panels, steriPens, Sat phone, SPOTS, spare GoPro Hero, heart rate monitors, Suunto multi-function watches, and a solar radio.

:)


I have done many trips where a distant peak looks interesting and I decide to detour, even though there are no trails on my map. I enjoy trying to figure out a safe route and then getting to the top. These are not highly technical climbs, but just a sense of accomplishment and outdoors enjoyment.

But it looks like we are going to be living in a Brave New World soon.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Surveilance Society on 01/08/2013 17:37:54 MST Print View

"But it looks like we are going to be living in a Brave New World soon."

Why do I have this nauseous feeling in the pit of my stomach? :(

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 18:16:53 MST Print View

Did you know that if two people are talking to each other on iPhones they can see each other on the screen if things are set up properly? Now I think that is pretty cool.

I wonder if Big Brother can watch them.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 18:36:29 MST Print View

"Did you know that if two people are talking to each other on iPhones they can see each other on the screen if things are set up properly? Now I think that is pretty cool.

I wonder if Big Brother can watch them."

Yeah, it's called Facetiming. And yeah, not only Big Brother, but anyone with the basic knowledge of stealing bits and bytes out of the air. Not that hard, actually.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
drones on 01/08/2013 18:42:33 MST Print View

Another reason why my parents named me SAM.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/08/2013 18:43:01 MST Print View

I actually bought one of these to spy on myself, since I can never remember what I'm doing. I inadvertently noticed it spying on me and it really ticked me off. I have some interesting video of me destroying it.....

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/08/2013 18:56:10 MST Print View

If I see one of these things flying over me in a wilderness area and I happen to have a rifle, it's going down.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 18:56:30 MST Print View

"Did you know that if two people are talking to each other on iPhones they can see each other on the screen if things are set up properly? Now I think that is pretty cool.

I wonder if Big Brother can watch them."

-Nick Gatel

____________________________________________________________

"Apple Inc.'s iPhone is collecting and storing location information even when location services are turned off, according to a test conducted by The Wall Street Journal."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704123204576283580249161342.html?mod=e2tw
______________________________________________________________

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If you really need that kind of privacy, the reality is that search engines – including Google – do retain this information for some time and it's important, for example, that we are all subject in the United States to the Patriot Act and it is possible that all that information could be made available to the authorities."

-Eric Schmidt, executive chairman, Google

Edited by xnomanx on 01/08/2013 19:08:36 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 19:04:04 MST Print View

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If you really need that kind of privacy, the reality is that search engines – including Google – do retain this information for some time and it's important, for example, that we are all subject in the United States to the Patriot Act and it is possible that all that information could be made available to the authorities."

-Eric Schmidt, executive chairman, Google

------------------------------------------

The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures.... The separate existence of the federal states will not be done away.... The number of cases in which an internal necessity exists for having recourse to such law is in itself a limited one.

- Adolph Hitler

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 19:11:16 MST Print View

Why do I feel like that Hitler quote sounds a lot like the justification used for half the violations of privacy provided for by the Patriot Act?

I am surprised at how many people I talk to about these trends have no issues with any of them on the grounds that "they're not doing anything wrong", so it doesn't matter if someone's tracking them.

Combined with a healthy dose of fear and xenophobia instilled by the media, it seems to me that this is the exact mentality that lets police states happen.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 19:18:28 MST Print View

"Combined with a healthy dose of fear and xenophobia instilled by the media, it seems to me that this is the exact mentality that lets police states happen."

We're already in a police state. Have been for awhile now. Sadly, it has been done with the acquiescence of the general population. Hopefully trends will begin to reverse, but I'm doubting it.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/08/2013 19:34:24 MST Print View

Oh Doug, weirdo.
Can't find that video on Youtube.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 19:39:10 MST Print View

"Combined with a healthy dose of fear and xenophobia instilled by the media, it seems to me that this is the exact mentality that lets police states happen."

We're already in a police state. Have been for awhile now. Sadly, it has been done with the acquiescence of the general population. Hopefully trends will begin to reverse, but I'm doubting it.



Yup. My feelings exactly.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 20:11:10 MST Print View

""Apple Inc.'s iPhone is collecting and storing location information even when location services are turned off, according to a test conducted by The Wall Street Journal."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704123204576283580249161342.html?mod=e2tw

One more reason I don't own a cell phone.

______________________________________________________________

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If you really need that kind of privacy, the reality is that search engines – including Google – do retain this information for some time and it's important, for example, that we are all subject in the United States to the Patriot Act and it is possible that all that information could be made available to the authorities."

"-Eric Schmidt, executive chairman, Google""

Interesting that, as we post, Chairman Eric is hobnobbing with some of his fans over in North Korea. What a great test bed for some of his new software.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
"V" Mask Time on 01/08/2013 20:31:53 MST Print View

Time to get out the "V" masks and march on Washington, demanding MUCH more internet and "smart phone" privacy.

But back to the "Quadcopter" intrusion into our wilderness experience. I think this gadget is just the first crude step toward what will be smaller aerial vehicles with greater range, much more compact controls and better cameras streaming video back to the controller.

So get ready to NOT tan in the nude in your fenced and walled back yard. The pervert next door will be watching from 500 ft.

I will LMAO when the first civilian Quadcopter crashes into a police surveilance drone.

BRAVE NEW WORLD with "Newspeak" is coming. Jus' sayin'...

*** NOTE: By the way... I wuz gonna sell my rifle since "assault rifle" prices have skyrocketed but now I'm thinking of keeping it to shoot down non-military drones. A new sport is born - hunting with no season and no bag limits!

Edited by Danepacker on 01/13/2013 01:02:14 MST.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/08/2013 20:44:09 MST Print View

>> I am surprised at how many people I talk to about these trends have no issues with any of them

I feel like having issues with it makes me the paranoid one.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Surveilance Society on 01/08/2013 21:24:27 MST Print View

Don't forget all this is being stored somewhere, forever...





















creepy.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming on 01/08/2013 21:41:39 MST Print View

Guys do me a favor.
When you post either wear some clothing or switch your web cams off.

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/08/2013 22:20:42 MST Print View

Every time I complain about Google, or the NSC monitoring all email and cell phone calls, or the drone war killing children in Pakistan, I'm accused of being a right-wing nut job. Probably am. Guess I'll go clean a gun, and hide behind religion.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/08/2013 22:26:32 MST Print View

"Every time I complain about Google, or the NSC monitoring all email and cell phone calls, or the drone war killing children in Pakistan, I'm accused of being a right-wing nut job..."

Funny. Every time I do it I'm accused of being a left-wing nut job.

Jeremy and Angela
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surveilance Society - Hey Tom on 01/09/2013 00:08:13 MST Print View

I feel like having issues with it makes me the paranoid one.

No no, the truly paranoid ones are very careful to appear quiescent in public. Should drones start dropping themselves in nearby pools and ponds, guess how the suspect list gets drawn up....

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
The Mammut quad copter vid on 01/09/2013 07:11:09 MST Print View

That Mammut quad copter vid is excellent for demonstration of the shots, and I am blown away at the altitude and temperature ranges it operates in...the big wall and snow-covered peak shots are amazing.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/12/2013 19:10:52 MST Print View

Drone On

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/12/2013 20:18:17 MST Print View

"Drone On"

I sure wish I had more faith in my fellow man than I do. Again, that queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach....

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming) on 01/13/2013 00:44:24 MST Print View

"I sure wish I had more faith in my fellow man than I do. Again, that queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach...."

+1

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Thanks Eugene on 01/13/2013 01:06:28 MST Print View

"DRONE ON" was very enlightening - and a bit scary.

As I mentioned in my 1st post, hunting drones can be a great new sport for all of us with rifles (or shotguns for those pesky low fliers).

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Thanks Eugene on 01/13/2013 08:09:34 MST Print View

Good video

Pretty soon we'll have Improvised Explosive Drones?

They included some video of a hobby drone buzzing the Brooklyn bridge, Empire State Building, and Statue of Liberty. For $1000 someone could add explosive?

Jeremy Platt
(jeremy089786) - F

Locale: Sydney
paintball drones on 01/13/2013 16:09:16 MST Print View

If you are going to shoot them down you better get a clean shot or they may return fire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Jplh7uatr-E#!

(Skip to about 2:30)

Also, despite all the hating on drones, I could see these things being moderately useful for white water boating to scout runs in canyons etc where line of sight isn't otherwise possible. Future models could also potentially fly off and get help for you (with messages/ images etc). It is agreed that having them generally whizz past on the trail would be infuriating.

Also some non-quadrocopters:

http://www.gizmag.com/lehmann-aviation-la100-uav/25142/
http://www.gizmag.com/swinglet-cam-aerial-photography-drone/16892/

Edited by jeremy089786 on 01/13/2013 16:12:35 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Oh, oh on 01/13/2013 19:57:57 MST Print View

"I could see these things being moderately useful for white water boating to scout runs in canyons etc where line of sight isn't otherwise possible."

Hmm... Wouldn't be better to develop the skills needed to read a river; the skills needed to read a topo map; the skills needed to read snow fields; etc?

Not to mention the adventure and personal satisfaction of solving and successfully developing a solution to an obstacle.

Here's an interesting article from Friday's USA Today.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/10/domestic-drones-backlash/1566212/

Jeremy Platt
(jeremy089786) - F

Locale: Sydney
Drones for scouting on 01/14/2013 16:38:51 MST Print View

"Hmm... Wouldn't be better to develop the skills needed to read a river; the skills needed to read a topo map; the skills needed to read snow fields; etc?"

Indeed the skills to read rivers/ maps etc is super important and having a drone won't help you do that, but in some situations it is simply impossible to get yourself into a situation where you can scout a river. Examples of this include gorges where there are overhanging rocks on each side (see a couple of examples below). In these cases you are essentially running a rapid blind and unaware whether some new submerged log is going to kill you.

In these situations, some kind of tough drone would simply be an excellent option.

http://www.oregonkayaking.net/rivers/elwha/elwha.html
http://oregonkayaking.net/rivers/box/box.html
http://caliproduct.blogspot.com.au/2007_01_01_archive.html
http://www.awetstate.com/Print%5CNTrinity.html
http://riversofchile.com/rio-llizan/

Edited by jeremy089786 on 01/14/2013 16:39:41 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 16:12:34 MST Print View

Legal experts expressed grave reservations Tuesday about an Obama administration memo concluding that the United States can order the killing of American citizens believed to be affiliated with al-Qaida — with one saying the White House was acting as “judge, jury and executioner.”

Link to story

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 20:15:54 MST Print View

Hi Nick

Seems to me those 'legal experts' are just seeking glory and publicity for themselves.

Imagine you are leading a US Army patrol in, say, Afganistan, patrol an area known to be threatened by Al-Quaeda. You come under fire. Are these 'legal experts' demanding that the patrol leader trot up to the enemy combatants to ask them 'Any of you chaps American?'

Come on!

Cheers

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 20:22:00 MST Print View

Not so roger.

It is about precedent. It's continuation of the erosision of our rights. It lets the US kill its own citizens without due process. This and the unprecedented use of executive orders are disgusting.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 20:35:58 MST Print View

"It is about precedent. It's continuation of the erosision of our rights. It lets the US kill its own citizens without due process. This and the unprecedented use of executive orders are disgusting."

Well, I'll be darned! Never thought I'd see the day. +100

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 21:15:35 MST Print View

The Obama administration gets such a free pass on this madness.

There was so much anti-war activism in the G.W. Bush years, some of which I was a direct part of, all filled with so much animosity towards an administration seen by so many as grossly overstepping its bounds with our military and trampling the personal liberty of US citizens with the Patriot Act, etc. I remember monthly demonstrations in downtown Los Angeles and across the country. Yet somehow those so critical of Bush have lost their fire when it comes to Obama, many still clinging to the fantasy that he's some sort of bringer of peace. I still see Obama stickers with a big peace sign as the "O" on cars...It's surreal.

I wonder if he strokes his Nobel Peace Prize while he's getting debriefed on the latest round of drone attacks.

1
YES, WE CAN!

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 21:21:16 MST Print View

Craig,

Exactly. I was of course more giving bush a pass caught up post 9/11. Came around towards the second term realizing the erosion of our rights. Better late than never I guess.


But it blown up since then even more. Sad how we gladly hand over our rights.

And I think obama doesn't need briefings. Heard he enjoys being hands on as far as the drones go.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 21:28:16 MST Print View

"The Obama administration gets such a free pass on this madness."

Good article on exactly that: http://www.salon.com/2013/02/05/when_liberals_ignore_injustice/

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
drones on 02/05/2013 21:32:17 MST Print View

This began as a thread about those tiny little bird-like machines that can go zinging about and annoy people. Why the sudden issue about USA killer drones?
Especially here on BPL.

Roger,
The US citizen angle involves the drone killing of a US citizen also an Al Quada leader and others in Yemen, and has been coming up in the USA in an organized fashion recently on public TV and other media. They may have a pretty good point of US constitutional law, but I would be more concerned about the innocent people of any nations who get killed and maimed in these attacks, a military policy euphemistically called 'collateral damage' that has been a disaster for the USA at least since the early days of the Vietnam conflict, and is well covered in Neil Sheehan's book about John Paul Vann in Vietnam entitled, "A Bright Shining Lie." Our recently appointed Secretary of State opposed this policy vigorously as a young veteran.

I'll never forget the Aussies I knew in Vietnam, the most capable and professional soldiers I ever met anywhere. I agree with your sentiment, if not opinion. A lot of civilian folks nowadays don't really understand what war is all about. That's probably a good thing, as long as they are against it. They are better off for not knowing.

BTW, on the original point of this thread, under common law that generally applies in the USA, air space over land is owned by the land owner to significant altitudes in most cases. Recreants can't just send their copters zinging about over areas owned by others, including persons and state and local govermnents. I'm not a 'legal expert,' just a retired legal aid lawyer.

MYOGers might also be interested in taking a look at all the carbon fiber parts for these copters that are being sold on Ebay. Might be something useful there.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 21:49:19 MST Print View

That's a good read Doug, thanks.

One dark thought (amongst many) about drone warfare that lurks in the back of my mind:

I play video games with my 11 year old son quite a bit. He's good. I mean really good. I know he plays online (I play online with him) but I recently found out he's got a "reputation", even amongst college and adult gamers. I actually heard about my son through an ex-student that now attends UC Berkely and is also a gamer...
(Thankfully, my son is also his class president, an avid reader, and loves camping too...)

That said, if you were to convert the controls of a drone to an Xbox controller platform and give them some time to learn, I'm willing to bet that my son (as well as legions of other teens and tweens in this country) could probably go toe to toe with some of the best drone pilots out there. We have an entire generation that is literally growing up simulating what the Air Force doesn't start training adults to do until the age 18 or later...

I hear a lot of talk about Orwell's 1984 these days. How about Ender's Game?

Edited by xnomanx on 02/05/2013 21:53:51 MST.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
GoPro Drone coming soon... on 02/05/2013 22:20:16 MST Print View

A good friend of mine is a GoPro athlete and shared a photo of a GoPro "drone" that is slated for 2013/2014.

It uses live-Feed from a GoPro cam to transmit video- pretty badass.

Matthew Black
(mtblack) - F
Re: Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/05/2013 23:41:11 MST Print View

Good reference and we will all learn very soon what continual modernization of warfare means to us and our descendents.

The experiences of B52 pilots vs infantry during the Vietnam Conflict may provide a sense of how the reality of casualties may be perceived by future warriors.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Search & Rescue drone applications on 02/06/2013 00:52:48 MST Print View

A lot of money and danger to aircrews could be spared with S & R drones out covering grid patterns searching for missing persons with optical and IR cameras. Could save a lot of lives.

OTOH, I AM serious about an "open drone hunting season". If I knew private drones were monitoring an area for invasion of privacy reasons I'd be very tempted to shoot them down. With a good magnum chambered rifle, Horus reticle scope and laser rangefinding ballistic programmable binoculars one could have some fun here in Nevada's open deserts. Jus' sayin'...

Or... just use "electronic counter-measures" to scramble their control signals. That's a less pointy stick method of dealing with what will be a nusiance in the future. I use a radar/lidar scrambler in my car to good effect.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/06/2013 02:05:43 MST Print View

> It lets the US kill its own citizens without due process.
Sigh.
This completely avoids the basic facts of WAR.
It also avoids answering my basic question.

Every legal convention about war that I know of allows a legitimate military force which comes under fire to return that fire.

In this case the US forces are in Afghanistan at the request of the internationally recognised elected Afghan government. This gives them the same legal status as the Afghan army. They are dealing with a internationally recognised terrorist organisation - Al-Quaeda. The internationally accepted rules of war are quite clear about legal actions in this case.

The so-called 'legal experts' in this case are probably Tea Party supporters solely concerned with attacking Obama. THAT is politics.

In this case Obama did not create any new law or erode anyone's legal rights. If you go to fight for the enemy against your own country, you become a traitor and you forfeit your normal civil rights. The order was simply an operational matter of how the military forces should procede, within the rules of war.

If you don't know about the rules of war, read up on them and then on the Geneva Conventions and the Hague Conventions for a start. The former date back to 1864, the latter to 1899. The fine details place limits on the treatment of non-combatants; it is assumed that combatants can and will kill each other.

For the record, I think the USA was stupid to get involved in both Iraq and Afghanistan, but that is a separate matter. I also think the Afghan government is riddled with corruption (they are in broad company), but that too is irrelevant here.

Cheers

Rod Lawlor
(Rod_Lawlor) - MLife

Locale: Australia
Drone finds dummy 'bushwalker' in world-first on 02/06/2013 02:11:03 MST Print View

I think we're almost there Eric

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/drone-finds-dummy-bushwalker-in-worldfirst-20121005-273lv.html

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/06/2013 05:31:59 MST Print View

This isn't some conspiracy ,it's real.
When I was a little boy America was supposed to be the good guy. We didn't torture, we didn't spy on citizens and search them without a warrant. We believed all people were equal under the law it didn't matter if you we're a rich Wall Street banker a politician or a janitor. Back then all people where innocent until proven guilty by s court of law.
All that has changed. We are not that country anymore. There is nothing special about America anymore were just like any other corrupt country.The only thing special about us is our military power. international law is meaningless Who will challenge us? Will Australia? We have no transparency we don't even know for sure what our own government is up too. We are slowly becoming another third world nation a country for and by special interest. War on terror,war on drugs war,war,war. And even our press fails us and whistleblowers are the new public enemy and any one who protest and complains about corruption and growing inequality is told to just stop whining. There needs to be some major changes and major social upheaval to get back our civil and constitutional rights with a lawful and transparent government that serves the public interest.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Search & Rescue drone applications on 02/06/2013 05:47:57 MST Print View

"OTOH, I AM serious about an "open drone hunting season". If I knew private drones were monitoring an area for invasion of privacy reasons I'd be very tempted to shoot them down."

Edited

Edited by Arapiles on 06/15/2013 21:49:42 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/06/2013 06:08:46 MST Print View

Roger:
"The so-called 'legal experts' in this case are probably Tea Party supporters solely concerned with attacking Obama. THAT is politics. "


So very wrong Roger. Among many other non Tea Party members...my brother supports Obama, is not a US citizen, IS one of the legal experts , teaching and publishing on such matters in several languages and in charge of the Legal team for another county's armed forced on active duty.....and he vehemently condemns this.

In my opinion, you are the one dragging politics into this.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
@ Roger re: war on 02/06/2013 06:33:34 MST Print View

Roger,

The US Constitution is very clear on the purpose of out military;

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions"

I don't recall Afghanistan or Iraq invading us.

The Constitution does not grant the Government the authority to engage in nation building or going to war at the request of other countries.

The Constitution is also explicit on dealing with traitors;

"The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed."

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

We created the terrorist problem by interfering with governments. Most of the despots we have killed or supported their killing, we at one time supported with military and/or financial aid -- something not authorized by our Constitution.

I was in the military and support a strong US military, but I more strongly support our Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

Sent with my iPhone - please forgive any spelling or grammar errors.

Michael Duke
(mpd1690) - F
Re: @ Roger re: war on 02/06/2013 07:03:03 MST Print View

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions"

The problem here is that this is a power granted to Congress, but it does not exclude other military action. It is saying that congress has the power "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions", but it does not say what they don't have the power to do nor that they have exclusive jurisdiction.

What I am curious about is when is your right to trial suspended? I assume that imminent danger voids it, but what exactly does that constitute?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: @ Roger re: war on 02/06/2013 07:09:08 MST Print View

Michael,

Refer to The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights for the freedoms that cannot be restricted.

Michael Duke
(mpd1690) - F
Re: Re: Re: @ Roger re: war on 02/06/2013 07:25:35 MST Print View

But all of those can be restricted. You cant yell fire in a crowded building with no fire. You can't own certain weapons. If you start shooting at someone, you essentially waive your right to trial. What constitutes an excessive fine? The constitution and the amendments are full of restrictions, regulations, and exceptions.

Edited by mpd1690 on 02/06/2013 07:26:27 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/06/2013 08:21:10 MST Print View

Drone strikes in Afganistan may qualify as war and thus make sense

What about Yemen? or other countries that we're not at war with?

Drones make it too easy, with no human lives at risk

If we do drone attacks against someone that can't defend themselves, they'll be more likely to retaliate with some terrorist attack

I'm not being critical of what they've done so much as we need to move in the direction of having fewer military actions. More effective to build roads and hospitals in Afganistan or wherever. At least we're "out" of Iraq and getting out of Afganistan.

Jeremy Platt
(jeremy089786) - F

Locale: Sydney
new drone on 02/06/2013 13:33:32 MST Print View

and now for a 16g drone that can fly at 35km/h in bad conditions and transmit video feed for 30mins. Pretty good for a modest...125000 pounds each!

http://www.gizmag.com/black-hornet-nano-uav/26118/

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: new drone on 02/06/2013 14:03:38 MST Print View

I am definitely getting one of those things! At current exchange rates, that's only 195,675 dollars!

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: 'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo on 02/06/2013 16:44:25 MST Print View

"I play video games with my 11 year old son quite a bit. He's good. I mean really good. I know he plays online (I play online with him) but I recently found out he's got a "reputation", even amongst college and adult gamers."

Your son is already obsolete.

The computer does all the real time stuff. Too much time delay from video camera to satelite to operator back to satelite back to drone.

Which takes us to Asimov's laws for robots:

A robot will not harm a human

A robot will obey humans unless it violates rule #1

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
al-Awlaki on 02/06/2013 23:22:58 MST Print View

The arguments invoking US citizenship against Roger's premises miss a few points:

The US Constition prescribes what creates US citizenship, but not all that may forfeit it. Section 349(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] provides for loss of U.S. nationality if an American voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship enters or serves in foreign armed forces engaged in hostilities against the United States.

None of us can have listened to every utterance by Awlaki about his US origins, but it would not be at all surprising if somewhere along the line he took occasion to renunciate his US citizenship.

Even without that, a federal lawsuit involving this issue was dismissed by a federal judge (a 'legal expert'?) who found the issue perplexing and declined to act on the basis of "political questions."

The whole subject is well covered in a NY Times article at:
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/a/anwar_al_awlaki/index.html
The article discusses at length the grounds upon which the Obama administration determined to proceed against al-Alwaki as it did. Those who disagree with Roger might learn something from it.

In an era where global organizations are becoming increasingly powerful, moreso than many sovereign states, direct military hostilities by such organizations against the USA may be far more threatening than those originating from foreign countries. Sometimes offense is not just the best defense, it is the only means of defense.

With respect to Roger's comments about the motives of the salon.com initiative, I also noted that some of the those pushing the citizenship argument had strong Republican Party complections. Sometimes someone a little removed from a situation can see it more clearly than those of us who are directly involved in the midst of it.

None of that negates my aforementioned over-riding concern about the slaughter of innocent people from "collateral damage," not to mention provisions in several recent defense authorization acts making provision for the arrest and indefinite detention, incommunicado, of persons, including US citizens, determined by the US military to be terrorists. Shades of the disappeared in countries ruled by fascist regimes.

When I wrote to my Republican Senator about this, I got over five single spaced pages of argument that boiled down to, 'We've always been able to do this, so it is OK to codify it in a law.' What puzzles me is how we so often get wound up in the US about some issues, and ignore more serious issues looming over us. Haven't quite figured it out, but maybe it has something to do with the diminution of the quality of communication on the internet, twitter, facebook, talk radio and TV, etc., the dumbing down of our educational system, and mindless fads that seem to rage on in this environment.
We can do much better, and must if we want to survive.

Edited by scfhome on 02/06/2013 23:31:39 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: al-Awlaki on 02/07/2013 01:43:22 MST Print View

I asked the following simple question:
'Imagine you are leading a US Army patrol in, say, Afganistan, patrol an area known to be threatened by Al-Quaeda. You come under fire. Are these 'legal experts' demanding that the patrol leader trot up to the enemy combatants to ask them 'Any of you chaps American?''

I see Sam has been game to answer this simple question, but so far no-one else has really. Thanks you Sam.

So let me up the ante by asking another very simple question - and there is a bonus question with it.

Imagine that US armed forces cannot return fire without first checking to see whether any of the hostiles are (or had been) American citizens. US solders in Afghanistan will get killed as a result (how many thousand body bags so far?).
Question: how do you explain this command to the parents, wives and children of the dead US soldiers?

Bonus question following this one:
How many weeks will it be before every US soldier resigns from the US Army as a result?

I await lots of really helpful answers to these simple questions (but no avoiding the issue).

Cheers

Mark Fowler
(KramRelwof) - MLife

Locale: Namadgi
Re: @ Roger re: war on 02/07/2013 03:09:01 MST Print View

Nick Gatel commented "The Constitution does not grant the Government the authority to engage in nation building or going to war at the request of other countries."

Gee Roger, It's a pity the Australian Constitution doesn't contain the same requirement.
We wouldn't have been dragged in to supporting the US in Vietnam, Iraq 1 or Iraq 2 or, no doubt other conflicts - or would we!

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: new drone on 02/07/2013 10:15:44 MST Print View

Wait! I changed my mind. Instead of a drone, I want a rolling iPad holder to hike ahead of me and show me what's coming up! Anybody can have a drone, I'll be the only kid on the block with a Double telepresence robot!

From the marketers:

Live Vicariously Through Your iPad -- It will probably be some time before the Double telepresence robot from Double Robotics becomes commonplace, but it easily took the prize for the coolest product at Macworld/iWorld. Double consists of a self-balancing driving cylinder with an extensible stalk, topped by an iPad. The idea is that you can use another iPad over the Internet to control where your Double goes and see what its iPad camera sees while displaying your face on its iPad, all in real time. You can even raise and lower the stalk to maintain face-to-face conversation whether the other people are sitting or standing. ... Double weighs only 15 pounds (6.8 kg) and can operate all day on a single charge. It’s not cheap though, listing for $2,499 and available for pre-order for $1,999, with an early 2013 ship date.

.double

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: new drone on 02/07/2013 10:22:51 MST Print View

Or, you could just stay at home and let it do your hike for you

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Roger's bonus question on 02/07/2013 15:35:59 MST Print View

Roger,
In my day, resignation was not an option for an enlisted man, and it is even less so now (repeated tours etc.) But I get your point.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Roger's bonus question on 02/07/2013 15:46:06 MST Print View

Obviously if you have people on the ground you can't make them make a legal case against someone before shooting them

So, it's okay to have drones in Afganistan and maybe across the border into Pakistan (although Pakistan may not agree)

But what about other countries in the world - less clear

And rather than having so much military action we should use peaceful techniques like building roads and hospitals

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 02/07/2013 18:52:49 MST Print View

Roger,

I think there is quite a difference between returning hostile fire vs "surgically" removing a single individual with a drone.

I can see it now...

some pimply kid in on vacation in Kabul with his family jokingly posts on Facebook that he has joined al-Qaeda. A CIA computer picks it up, identifies the ISP, tracks it to his cell phone, satellites in orbit lock onto the cell phone, a drone is launched, poof, no kid.

Far fetched? Maybe. But then I am in Colorado Springs, 1000 miles from home, posting with with a phone. Inconceivable to me 4 years ago.

What if we had these drones and policies in 1972? Would we have targeted Hanoi Jane? Many government officials thought so. Not saying she was right or wrong, but many called for her to be charged with treason. But today the President and military could be the judge, jury and executioner.

hanoi jane

Scary. No due process.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 02/07/2013 19:19:29 MST Print View

I asked the following simple question:
'Imagine you are leading a US Army patrol in, say, Afganistan, patrol an area known to be threatened by Al-Quaeda. You come under fire. Are these 'legal experts' demanding that the patrol leader trot up to the enemy combatants to ask them 'Any of you chaps American?''

I see Sam has been game to answer this simple question, ..

Imagine that US armed forces cannot return fire without first checking to see whether any of the hostiles are (or had been) American citizens. US solders in Afghanistan will get killed as a result (how many thousand body bags so far?).


Having been there recently -- If shot at, the military can shoot back. If a European is observed wandering about but not firing a weapon, then that's of interest. Of course, the Taliban will have an interest too and you'd try to identify said non-native.

Bonus question following this one:
How many weeks will it be before every US soldier resigns from the US Army as a result?


FWIW, I can answer this having prepped reserve unit for Iraq deployment. In reality, once activated, there's no real resignations in lieu of deployment for US enlisted or officer anymore, except for some sort of verifiable hardship granted by a general (which may lead to a discharge as deployment is the job). Now the US military will process the resignation or discharge during the deployment, .. it will be waiting upon return from Afghanistan.

There's refusal to follow lawful orders but that's a military justice issue. Bottom line: A US troop is allowed lawful self-defense (to put it mildly...). Even with the new sights, if a combatant is putting some out effective fire, it will be returned --.

For my prize, can I get one of the foxier BPL girls wrapped in cuben fiber?

Add: There's some militarily neat things about "drones" but, IMO, there needs to be a clear-cut case the target is an actual combatant or terrorist. How do we define terrorist? Also, remember the rest of the world is catching up on this technology...

Edited by hknewman on 02/07/2013 19:53:36 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 02/07/2013 20:38:01 MST Print View

"Also, remember the rest of the world is catching up on this technology..."

Wise words, HK, as I suspect we will be finding out in the not too distant future.
What goes around, comes around....

"How do we define terrorist?"

Whoever the President says is a terrorist. In Dubbya's case you were either with us or agin' us. Somehow, I think Obama's approach is slightly more nuanced, but it still gives me the creeps that all the decisions are carried out within one branch of the government, in contravention of our cherished system of checks and balances. What happens if, in the future, we get another Dubya in office, when our drone system has become increasingly sophisticated......? Gotta go, I'm getting the shivers again.

And there is the case of the hapless Jose Padilla. They didn't incinerate him with a Hellfire missile, but they tossed him in the brig without formal charges, access to a lawyer, an appearance in court, etc, thereby demolishing the most bedrock principle of our legal system, habeas corpus.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 02/07/2013 20:43:40 MST Print View

"For my prize, can I get one of the foxier BPL girls wrapped in cuben fiber?"

Sorry, but Roger's an Australian. For your prize you get Franco Darioli wrapped up in silnylon....

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: Re: Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 02/07/2013 20:51:02 MST Print View

.. Darioli wrapped up in silnylon....

Not really the answer I was looking for ...

Edited by hknewman on 02/07/2013 20:52:40 MST.

Jacob Avanzato
(jacobiat) - F
quadcopter aerial video on 02/11/2013 16:06:10 MST Print View

I'm not ashamed to admit that I like riding the bleeding edge of technology almost as much as I love backpacking.

Went backpacking/camping with some friends (definitely not ultralight this time)in Big Sur this past weekend. I brought along my new toy, a $35 Syma X1 quadcopter with a $50 808 #16 keychain camera attached to it.

It's not equipped with first person view gear(yet) so its not a 'drone' but I'm going to work on that over the next few months and should be able to get something setup that will allow me to see what the video camera sees out to about 500 yards and about 10 minutes of flight time and only add a few ounces to the entire setup. Right now with multiple extra batteries and a transmitter the whole thing weighs under a pound.

Here's a video I put together of the trip, be warned my choice of music might not be your cup of tea :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HRavgDv144&hd=1

I know that this kind of thing isn't for everyone, but the footage I'm going to be able to get makes it worth it for me. hopefully I wont get flamed too bad for this post :)

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming on 02/11/2013 16:24:12 MST Print View

Seriously Tom? "What happens if we get another Dubya in office?" The guy we have now has expanded the programs of Dubya that you find offensive a hundred fold. Why would that be OK?

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
"a hundred fold" on 02/11/2013 18:29:04 MST Print View

Really? How do you know? What you see is only a tiny tip of the iceberg. That's why they call it 'covert' ops in the first place. But it is fascinating to see the screeching hawks cooing like doves just looking for way to sink their claws into that guy you mentioned.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming on 02/11/2013 20:05:48 MST Print View

"Seriously Tom?"

Yes, Joe, very.

"The guy we have now has expanded the programs of Dubya that you find offensive a hundred fold. Why would that be OK?"

The things I found offensive about Dubya were not what you seem to think. You're absolutely right about Obama expanding the drone program a 100 fold, and I am against that as well, for a lot of reasons that probably belong in a separate thread.

No, what I found offensive about Dubya were his disastrous invasion of Iraq, the fallout of which is still unfolding, his needless antagonizing of Russia, his tax cuts in the midst of prosecuting 2 wars, the rendition program, torture, turning the NSA loose on the American citizenry, incarcerating Jose Padilla in a military prison without a lawyer or timely appearance in a court of law in violation of the bedrock principle of habeas corpus, to name a few of the most egregious things that happened on his watch. Sorry, I know you're from Texas and probably have a more positive opinion of Dubya, but I think he'll go down in history as the worst president this country this country has ever had.

Jeremy Platt
(jeremy089786) - F

Locale: Sydney
Beer drone on 05/06/2013 20:21:27 MDT Print View

I would say this will be the most important role for backpacking drones...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=janur7RJwm0

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Beer drone on 05/06/2013 20:41:44 MDT Print View

Well now, the beer drone changes everything.

Talk about winning hearts and minds.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Beer drone on 05/06/2013 20:44:40 MDT Print View

"Talk about winning hearts and minds."

Not really. Due to the sequester, we can only afford to load the beer drone with Coors Light.....

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: beer falling from the sky on 05/06/2013 23:28:59 MDT Print View

That would be a tremendous waste of beer.


...Even Coors Light

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: beer falling from the sky on 05/07/2013 17:41:05 MDT Print View

"That would be a tremendous waste of beer.


...Even Coors Light"

When did they start calling Coors Light beer?

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: Re: Re: beer falling from the sky on 05/07/2013 18:14:35 MDT Print View

I don't know when it started, but I have run across a few people who consider it beer. Granted they were tongueless, alcoholic NASCAR mechanics... but they called it beer.

Corporate sponsorships make you say thing you don't really mean.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: beer falling from the sky on 05/07/2013 20:38:32 MDT Print View

"I don't know when it started, but I have run across a few people who consider it beer. Granted they were tongueless, alcoholic NASCAR mechanics... but they called it beer."

Were they actually drinking it, or using it for brake fluid?

Jeremy Platt
(jeremy089786) - F

Locale: Sydney
Positives on 10/19/2013 08:06:05 MDT Print View

And here are some positive uses for drones on or near the trail:

Mapping the Matterhorn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs2C_wXQ_lM

Dropping you some medical equipment: http://www.medgadget.com/2013/08/aed-drone.html

A friend is also working on something similar to this: http://appgondrones.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/drones-in-the-field-uavs-as-a-tool-for-clearing-mines/

And finally, to a more neutral use, on a recent packrafting trip drones were buzzing overhead at a couple of the rapids filming me and the rafting group ahead of me (at 0.53 and 1.05):

http://youtu.be/_npm7WjrWBQ

for better or worse they are certainly coming soon!

Edited by jeremy089786 on 10/19/2013 08:08:06 MDT.

Rex Sanders
(Rex) - M

Locale: Central California Coast
Coming soon: Tacocopter, Burrito Bomber, Fly-A-Pizza, sushi-by-drone, Domicopter on 10/19/2013 10:43:06 MDT Print View

Soon, you won't need to carry food on your trip, just a smart phone with Internet access.

Tacocopter, Flying Robots Deliver Tacos To Your Location. More from HuffPo. They claim to have Lobstercopter in the works for East Coast deliveries.

Hot on their heels (or blades) is Burrito Bomber, with a very similar business plan, and a "cheesy" video.

Berlin has Fly-A-Pizza.

London has sushi by drone, including a CNN video.

Domicopter delivers Domino's pizza by drone. But watch out for unintended consequences!

Any day now ...

-- Rex

Edited by Rex on 10/19/2013 10:44:44 MDT.

Trace Richardson
(tracedef) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
DJI Phantom on 10/19/2013 21:43:23 MDT Print View

I just raced in the 50th Annual San Diego to Ensenada Yacht race and one of the magazines was running a Phantom over the starting line ... then he was buzzing the pool and awards reception at the end ... got to take a look at his setup ... pretty sweet setup, especially with the monitor so he can see what he's filming ... he had some stabilization control setup on the camera as well ... you can see the monitor at the beginning of this video ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu0nQPVLKBQ

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 10/19/2013 23:45:43 MDT Print View

> "Also, remember the rest of the world is catching up on this technology..."

You know, some (long) time ago I dimly remember a terrible uproar about another miltary development which was going to tear society apart if it was used. Well several of them, actually. It was claimed that they would so alter the nature of war that society would never recover. Peoples' lives, family structure, and our whole future would be destroyed.

What were these terrible developments? They include:

Steel swords
Plate armour
English long bow
Gunpowder
Machine gun
Nuclear bomb

War is simply a political strategy. How the war is fought is a minor almost irrelevant matter compared to the decision to go to war. With any technology in any theatre at any time, war means you are going to glory in killing the opposition while sweeping your own dead under the carpet - until after the war when all the pollies will line up for photo ops at the war memorial.

Cheers

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 10/20/2013 08:10:12 MDT Print View

Chemical and biological weapons?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 10/20/2013 08:36:53 MDT Print View

"How the war is fought is a minor almost irrelevant matter compared to the decision to go to war."

Normally I more or less agree with a lot of things you say...but in relation to the above tell that to the Japanese after they were bombed with nuclear weapons.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Re Re Re Re al-Awlaki on 10/20/2013 09:45:47 MDT Print View

There is an interesting free video on Stratfor.com discussing the issue of technology and war. Basically they argue precision weapons have changed how wars will be fought and the moral calculations made in war.

In 1900 a land fighting unit would have had artillery, rifles and bayonets. They didn't really have the ability to target an individual. The only way they could have gone after al-Awlaki would have been to invade whatever country sheltered him and fight a massive traditional war. That sort of thing started World War I for example.

Now the military can send in drones, collect phone intercepts and target one or two individuals. They can find a guy like al-Awlaki or bin-Ladin and kill him without an invasion.

In one sense that is good, an airstrike in Yemen is preferable to an invasion of Yemen. On the other hand we're acting like judge, jury and executioner when we use a drone because the target can't really surrender. That might not be so uncomfortable if we could limit drones to hot war zones. But the fact that our targets hide where soldiers aren't actively fighting opens a new can of worms.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re al-Awlaki on 10/20/2013 09:49:33 MDT Print View

and the bad thing is it's easier to wage war now because we can do it without risking U.S. military people

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Jerry on 10/20/2013 10:12:38 MDT Print View

That is a good point. Its easier to send in a drone then a Marine unit so presidents can get careless.

Personally I think drones are great, we just need to rethink the moral and legal limits to using them. For example the president can order military action for a certain amount of time (I think its up to 60 days but don't quote me) then he needs congressional approval to continue. That used to be an okay but wars have changed, you can do lot more in 60 days. I think that needs to be changed to 10 days or less before congressional approval and add a clause that congress has to authorize drone strikes. Something along those lines would rebalance things a bit and put a lid on bad ideas.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re Jerry on 10/20/2013 10:27:57 MDT Print View

hmmm

maybe it's a myth that liberals and conservatives can't agree with each other

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Re Jerry on 10/20/2013 10:37:50 MDT Print View

"maybe it's a myth that liberals and conservatives can't agree with each other"

haha I've enjoyed watching both sides make each other's arguments.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 10/20/2013 15:49:40 MDT Print View

> > "How the war is fought is a minor almost irrelevant matter compared to the decision
> > to go to war."
> Normally I more or less agree with a lot of things you say...but in relation to the
> above tell that to the Japanese after they were bombed with nuclear weapons.

Dresden was wiped from the face of the earth - but it was Nazi Germany which went to war. Did wiping Dresden help end WW II and reduce overall casualties? Probably.
Hiroshima was wiped - but it was Japan which went to war. Did bombing Hiroshima help end the war in the Pacific and reduce overall casualties? Very likely.
But in both cases the casualties were very high.

al-Awlaki or bin-Ladin thought they could wage terrorism against one country and yet be safe by hiding in another. They found out otherwise. Tough. But at least with drones far, far fewer people (collateral) get killed. Is that an improvement?

ALL WAR IS PRETTY GHASTLY. Face it, accept it, and get on with life. And tell the pollies to stop grandstanding on the world stage pretending they have the right to act as global sherrifs.

Cheers

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: al-Awlaki on 10/20/2013 16:35:00 MDT Print View

" But at least with drones far, far fewer people (collateral) get killed. Is that an improvement?" Probably, with the caveats that those currently on the receiving end have long memories, drone technology is rapidly becoming widely disseminated, and, as always, what goes around comes around.

"ALL WAR IS PRETTY GHASTLY. Face it, accept it, and get on with life."

A hard reality that the civilian population of the US has been sheltered from, with the exception of the South during our civil war. If they ever have to suffer the way countless other civilian populations have suffered down thru the centuries, perhaps our pollies will be forced to cease their Wyatt Earp grandstanding in other countries and there will be no further need for drones or any of the other diabolical goodies that we waste so much brainpower devising, thereby depriving us of precious talent that could be far better employed solving not only our own problems, but those of humaity at large.

"And tell the pollies to stop grandstanding on the world stage pretending they have the right to act as global sherrifs."

+1 Patience, Roger. IMO, it won't take too many more hard lessons for the American public to figure that out, if their reaction to Obama's threat to bomb Syria is any indication. As
Churchill once commented: America can always be counted on to do the right thing; after it has exhausted all the alternatives". ;0)

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: Re Jerry on 10/20/2013 16:59:40 MDT Print View

They can even be the same person.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re Re Re Re Re Re al-Awlaki on 10/20/2013 19:10:36 MDT Print View

"Personally I think drones are great, we just need to rethink the moral and legal limits to using them."

Perhaps we should rethink the moral and legal limits of war.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re Re Re Re Re Re al-Awlaki on 10/21/2013 17:25:32 MDT Print View

"Perhaps we should rethink the moral and legal limits of war."

+1

The rub lies in deciding who gets to do the rethinking.