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Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 17:46:16 MST Print View

I'm puttering about with my Christmas present- a Ti Sidewinder for an Evernew 0.9L pot. On the TD website they say that the 12-10 stove won't fit in this pot with the Sidewinder and they include a Tupperware widget to store the stove in your pack, but fiddling around a bit it seems quite clear that the stove WOULD easily fit if the integral priming pan were trimmed off.

The instructions for the 12-10 stove implies that the priming pan is only really needed in cold weather. Personally, I find it desirable that my cooking set be as compact as possible.

So- and if Rand is skulking around here I'm particularly interested in his opinion- is there a big downside to trimming off the priming pan? I have another 12-10 stove that I could preserve for cold-weather use. For that matter, does TD make a priming-pan-less 12-10 stove? (I know that they don't- hint, hint.)

Has anyone tried this? Conceptually at least it seems obvious that there wouldn't be any issues for warmer-weather use.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 18:02:05 MST Print View

If you don't like the size of the normal priming pan, then you can use a collapsible priming pan. Just put a piece of aluminum foil there and burn the priming alcohol. Afterward, you can fold up the foil and stash it anywhere. There is nothing very critical about the pan, just as you can burn some alcohol there to produce bottom heat.

--B.G.--

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Re: Re: Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 18:25:59 MST Print View

True...

I'm really not seeing a down side to this. But I know that Rand spent a LOT of time and effort optimizing his stove for the Caldera system. I just want to be sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot on efficiency or anything by not priming.

Edited by acrosome on 01/02/2013 18:28:12 MST.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 18:36:00 MST Print View

"I'm not shooting myself in the foot"

We will try to uphold your Second Amendment rights. Or, is that a cliche?

I hate cliches like the plague.

--B.G.--

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 18:45:02 MST Print View

yes, cliches are a dime a dozen.

Never used that priming pan myself.
In cold weather I use a bit of Vaseline impregnated cotton to get it going.
The al foil Bob is suggesting could also be used as a snuffer and recovery cup so that you end up using the minimum amount of fuel needed for the job

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Priming pan on 01/02/2013 19:03:44 MST Print View

I've being using a 12-10 stove for years and I've never used the priming pan. If you can remove it while preserving normal functionality then I'd say go for it.

Or better yet, if your 0.9L pot is the wide shape then ditch the 12-10 stove and the stakes to hold in place. Just set the pot directly on the cone via it's rim, and replace the 12-10 stove with Zelph's Starlyte stove. There's many advantages to this including compactness, winter lighting ease, weight, simplicity....

See this thread - mostly pages 3-4.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=57721

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 19:04:27 MST Print View

I've never used that priming pan either. My guess that the real reason it is there is to make things just a bit more stable. Cut it off, it is a can, not an arm.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 19:06:14 MST Print View

My previous understanding was that expending 3ml of priming alcohol will _warm_ up the main alcohol load. Then, when you ignite the main load that is already warm, you get a slightly faster boil. The alternative is to add the 3ml of alcohol directly into the main load and ignite it directly without priming. I think you get about the same overall fuel efficiency either way, but you might get quicker speed by priming.

--B.G.--

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 19:13:28 MST Print View

I've removed the priming pans from all of my 12-10s. They pack better for me that way.
In cold weather I fill the stove and then I fill the top rim with alcohol. Easier to light. It works.

I use a Dremmel with a carbide bit, because of it's cutting pattern not hardness, to trim most of the pan. I get things close and then finish up with a file.

The outer can is minimally bonded to the pan. If your "cutting frequency" makes everything flop around you may break that bond. (Hence my preference for a fast cutter and a slow file.) If that happens re-bond it with something like JB Weld.

Edited by greg23 on 01/02/2013 19:39:38 MST.

Rand Lindsly
(randlindsly) - MLife

Locale: Yosemite
Re: Modifying a Trail Designs 12-10 alcohol stove ? on 01/02/2013 19:38:40 MST Print View

There's no issue removing the outer rim of the primer pan to get it to fit into a 900ml Evernew with the Sidewinder. The only thing you need to be aware of is that the primer pan is holding the two stove walls/cans together.....so as noted.....you will want to use something like a dremmel or tin snips etc to remove the outer pan rim.....but leave all the stuff underneath so it holds it all together.

Rand :-)

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Re: Priming pan on 01/03/2013 06:49:43 MST Print View

Thanks, Rand!

@Dan "Just set the pot directly on the cone via it's rim, and replace the 12-10 stove with Zelph's Starlyte stove."

Well, how wide is the Starlyte? Will it fit in the 0.9L Evernew pot sideways? (In your setup it just sits flat in the bottom of the pot.) Does Zelph still have plastic caps for the Starlyte? Are they leak-proof, if I have the stove sideways, or upside-down?

Edited by acrosome on 01/03/2013 06:51:24 MST.

William Chilton
(WilliamC3) - MLife

Locale: Antakya
Re: Re: Priming pan on 01/03/2013 07:01:50 MST Print View

The Starlyte fits sideways in the 0.6L Evernew wide pot, so there should be no problem with the 0.9. Zelph had the lid a few weeks ago, and it is still on the website, so I would guess it's still available. I haven't used mine yet so I can't comment on how leak-proof it is.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Ok, what the hell... on 01/03/2013 07:29:03 MST Print View

OK, why not? The simplicity of possibly being able to forgo the two tent stakes appeals to me, too. I just ordered a Starlyte, and I'll let you all know how the experimentation goes. If it goes poorly I'll be butchering a 12-10.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Starlyte on 01/03/2013 09:10:19 MST Print View

"Will it fit in the 0.9L Evernew pot sideways?"
The Starlyte is quite a bit smaller than the 12-10, so it should easily fit. The Starlyte is 2" in diameter.
Starlyte vs 12-10

"Are [the caps] leak-proof, if I have the stove sideways, or upside-down?"
The stove itself is leak proof because the wicking material absorbs the fuel and does not drip even if inverted. The function of the cap is primarily to stop evaporation, as alcohol is volatile and evaporates quickly.

"I just ordered a Starlyte, and I'll let you all know how the experimentation goes."
As the graphs on page 3 of my other thread show, pot height is an important variable. With the Starlyte you want the pot held pretty close to 1.8-1.9" off the ground. If you go higher then fuel usage goes up, and if you go lower then boils get slow. I believe with your 0.9L pot and Sidewinder cone, the pot is going to rest about 2.0 - 2.2" off the ground when supported by it's rim. You can simulate a 1.8" pot height (1.0" gap between stove and pot) by putting a small spacer under the stove. If you're happy with those results you can commit and trim ~0.3" off the bottom of the cone (hey more grams saved, and it packs even easier).

The other important variable is oxygen availability. In a normal cone the Starlyte burns a bit slow due to the low oxygen availability, which the 12-10 is optimized for. I added a few extra holes around the bottom of my cone (shown in other thread) for ideal performance. You can simulate this by creating an air gap around the bottom of the cone by placing the whole thing on a few spacers (ie. lay down some tent stakes and set the cone on that) while still remembering to adjust pot height accordingly. If performance is better with an air gap around the bottom, then it needs a few more holes to burn ideally.

You don't want to overdo it on the air holes though, because in the real world (ie. some wind) more air seems to get through the holes, so an ideal burn in the lab could burn lean in the woods.

Edited by dandydan on 01/03/2013 11:01:31 MST.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Re: Starlyte on 01/03/2013 09:52:46 MST Print View

@ Dan

Ah, thanks. That picture tells the story I was looking for. I also have a small fuel bottle that should fit inside the pot, too, for even more pack volume savings- it is flat like a hip flask rather than round like the one Rand provides. It's small, though, so only good for weekenders.

One issue with trimming the cone is that it might futz up the use of the Inferno insert. It seems pretty specifically sized to the cone. At the least the Inferno may require trimming as well to get it to fit. Perhaps a spacer under the Startlyte will be the best answer. Or, hell, maybe just biting the bullet and trimming the priming pan off the 12-10 will be the best answer. At least if I futz that up it's cheaper to buy a new 12-10 than a new Ti cone...

But I'll play around with the Starlyte first, and let the Hive Mind know my results.

Edited by acrosome on 01/03/2013 11:45:41 MST.

Russ Maynard
(russmay) - F

Locale: Central California
other stove! on 01/03/2013 11:59:39 MST Print View

I don't know if this helps, but I have used a MBD Mini atomic with good success. I got the idea off of hammock forums.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
MBD Mini Atomic on 01/03/2013 13:20:30 MST Print View

I've actually got a Mini Atomic coming my way in the mail right now. The Starlyte has a unique list of attributes that few other stoves can equal, so I don't anticipate the mini Atomic replacing my Starlyte, but I am interested to see how cleanly a self pressurizing stove like the mini Atomic can burn butanol, which I have coming in the mail too.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Stock Evernew 0.9L Sidewinder height on 01/05/2013 11:27:54 MST Print View

Update-

I just took some measurements and the unmodified Sidewinder holds the bottom of the 0.9L Evernew pot 2+5/16 inches off the ground if supported from the pot lip rather than using the tent stakes. So I'm guessing that, yes, I'll either need to shim the Starlyte upwards by 7/16 inch or so, trim a similar length from the cone, or use the butchered 12-10.

@Dan- At what elevation were you doing your experiments with the Starlyte? I live at almost 7000 feet, and that's usually the lowest point of my hikes.

But also, yes, with the priming lip trimmed off the 12-10 fits inside an Evernew 0.9L pot with the Sidewinder:

0.9L Evernew with trimmed 12-10 and Sidewinder

You an also see my "weekend" hip-flask-shaped fuel bottle. The mini-Bic and measuring cup are inside the sleeve with the Sidewinder, and the entire Inferno system is included.

Having just done a test-run, I remain impressed as hell with the cone and 12-10 system.

I also spent a half-hour or so snipping and sanding the sharp bits from the edge of the Inferno grate. Because I'm like that.

Oh, and putting a few drops of alcohol in the crimp on the top of the 12-10 makes it much easier to light, as mentioned above somewhere I think, and would probably work just fine as a priming device in itself. I think this is a good, quick solution. But I'll still play with the Starlyte- it does look interesting. Hell, I'm even thinking of commissioning a custom cone from Rand that's 7/16" shorter and with only the woodburning holes for the tent stakes so that I can still keep the original cone as-is...

Therein lies madness- this stove stuff can consume one, y'know?

But the shorter cone would fit even more easily in the pot and I could do away with the need for the tent stakes except in woodburning mode. For 90% of my hiking the woodburning option is really only for emergencies, anyway, so I think that I can do without the Inferno insert most of the time, too. I'll have to ask Rand what he's asking for custom cones these days, but only after I get the Starlight and verify what height I need with some experimentation. Maybe I'll even try to find a controllable location at around 9000 feet in which to experiment...

Edited by acrosome on 01/05/2013 16:04:44 MST.

Drop Bear
(DropBear) - F
ECA251 12-10 on 01/05/2013 21:55:19 MST Print View

Here are some instructions by Don Meredith from his lightpack blog ,


After reducing the priming pan on the 12-10 I can fit it into the Evernew Titanium Ultra Light 600ml Pot (ECA251) with the inferno and floor.

*edited to get the link working

Edited by DropBear on 01/05/2013 22:00:56 MST.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Starlyte on 01/06/2013 15:58:42 MST Print View

Virtually all my Starlyte testing was done at 2000'.