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Lacing to help heel slippage?
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Andrew DiMicelli
(adimi24)
Lacing to help heel slippage? on 12/31/2012 10:13:07 MST Print View

I learned from my last shoe purchase that I need to get bigger shoes to deal with foot swelling and leaving enough room for my toes on downhills.

I've been trying 12 and 12.5 in Terroc 330, La Sportiva Wildcats, and Brooks Cascadia 7. I like the Wildcat and Cascadia more than the 330's but I'm having trouble keeping my heel locked without making my laces so tight that they cut circulation. Part of the problem might be my blue superfeet which lift heel a bit higher out of the shoe. I will be using these for backpacking (20-30lbs pack) with a thin wool sock.

Any suggestions how to stop the heel slippage, maybe a different lacing pattern?

Edited by adimi24 on 12/31/2012 10:15:20 MST.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Lacing to help heel slippage? on 12/31/2012 10:58:28 MST Print View

http://doitandhow.com/2012/08/15/running-shoe-lacing-tips/

my tip for looser toes but tighter ankle is more convenient with boots.. you do the normal lacing then up to the flex point and tight an overhand knot. then lace up the hooks as tight as you want.

less convenient but you might be able to do it with the Wildcats with the loop style "holes" especially if you don't need to take them off much during the day.

http://www.backpacker.com/media/originals/CorrectiveBootTying3445x298.jpg

Andrew DiMicelli
(adimi24)
Socks on 12/31/2012 11:15:04 MST Print View

I'm trying the first one right now. It helps a bit but there's still a very tiny bit of slip which will probably cause blisters. I was planning on just wearing a thin merino liner for breathability and quick drying for my trip. I have some other liners, would it make any sense to wear 2 liners to help stop blisters from friction with the same idea of using a liner and thick wool sock?

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
heel slippage on 12/31/2012 14:16:33 MST Print View

You might try a pair of New Balance shoes made with a narrow heel last.

http://www.newbalance.com/shoe-last-chart/shoe-last-chart,default,pg.html

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: heel slippage on 12/31/2012 14:28:54 MST Print View

I agree with Stephen, adding more socks is trying to adjust your foot to the shoe and it could work or will just result in more blisters from so many layers moving. Sounds like they do not match your feet.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Just sent pictures on 12/31/2012 14:30:42 MST Print View

On what Jake described (much better than I did by the way.).

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
lacing on 12/31/2012 14:49:16 MST Print View

When I started wearing 330s, they felt strange, like my heel was going to come out.

But it doesnt. My foot just wasnt used to the very slightly lower cut around the ankle.

After a few miles my feet got used to the new feeling, and it became the new "normal"

If its slipping bad, thats a problem. If it feels like it could slip, thats different.

Personally, my shoes are pretty loose with no issues.

Innov8 (i think) used to have a thing on their website with different ways to lace, for different purposes, but doesnt seem to be there now.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Lacing to help heel slippage? on 12/31/2012 15:06:17 MST Print View

Basically, it sounds like you have shoes which do not match your feet. There is a reason why the big shoe companies have so many different lasts.

The Blue Superfeet will be part of the problem imho. I question whether you even need them.

You could try New Balance: they have a very big range of models, sizes and lasts. They also have a page which explains the difference between the lasts. My own personal opinion is that they are infinitely better than Nike, and that they make some really good walking and mountain trail shoes.

(Disclosure: I have field-tested and reviewed quite a range of their shoes here on BPL - because they have wide 4E models which the smaller companies do not.)

Cheers

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
heel slip on 12/31/2012 17:20:09 MST Print View

Andrew,
I've been battling the same thing with the lowest mids I can find.
If there is an arch built into the mid sole of the shoe (the surface underneath the insole or footbed that you remove before installing the Superfeet), then the stiffer orthotic rear portion of the Superfeet may rock a bit over the slight arch. If that is happening, I think that heel slip is inevitable. The only cure I've found is to buy boots with inside bottoms that are flat enough to not rock my orthotic footbeds.

Even without the rocker, the Superfeet may be causing the slipping. Some podiatrists offer orthotics, particularly for running shoes, that do not project so far forward in the shoe and interfere with its flex.

Despite all that, I agree with Roger that it can be just a question of whether the last agrees with your foot. I use a full orthotic footbed with Wildcats and have never had a problem with heel slip like I do with the mids. Go figure. I think the time spent finding the right fitting footwear is well worth avoiding the effects of overly tight lacing.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Lacing to help heel slippage? on 12/31/2012 22:51:59 MST Print View

http://www.inov-8.co.nz/lacing-systems.html

You can also soften the heel cup in Inov-8s with steam and then mold them to fit. well in theory.

Andrew DiMicelli
(adimi24)
Ortho on 01/01/2013 10:23:30 MST Print View

Thanks for the responses.

The reason I use Superfeet is because I over pronate and also thought it would help with ground protection in these shoes without rock plates

I'll try out some New Balance, although I leave in 10 days so I don't have much time to figure this out. I've seen the MT1110 recommended, I'll try those in wide.

Any other shoe recommendations? I have a wide foot and would like a good amount of toe room ( having problems with possible ingrown toenails, I think keeping pressure off them would be a good idea)

Edited by adimi24 on 01/01/2013 10:24:10 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Ortho on 01/01/2013 16:52:50 MST Print View

> because I over pronate
Crap. That's a Nike marketing myth. Whatever you do, do not try to alter how your knee and ankle biomechanics work. That way lies pain and suffering.

> other shoe recommendations? I have a wide foot and would like a good amount of toe room
I don't like recommending shoes, but you could try the New Balance MO889 shoes in a 4E width. They have a narrow heel cup which might suit; the rest is 'standard'.

The MT1110 are the inverse: wider heel and smaller everywhere else. Not sure that's what you need.

Cheers

Andrew DiMicelli
(adimi24)
Superfeet on 01/02/2013 07:35:55 MST Print View

Thanks Roger, I'll try out the MO889.

I see what you're saying about changing biomechanics, but won't the different designs of the shoes do that anyway? If an orthotic is designed to help a problem I supposedly have (which I don't know, really), wouldn't it be better to use it?

Mark Andrews
(buldogge) - F

Locale: Midwest
MO889... on 01/02/2013 08:12:07 MST Print View

I have had good luck dealing with the same scenario using the MO889s.

They can be picked up at Amazon or Famous Footwear (typical strip mall discount chain) for ~$65.

Good luck...

-Mark

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Superfeet on 01/02/2013 14:38:19 MST Print View

Hi Andrew

> I see what you're saying about changing biomechanics, but won't the different designs
> of the shoes do that anyway?
Yes and no. If you are wearing some of Nike's stranger pronation control creations then the shoe will doubtless do strange things to you. But GOOD walking shoes are strictly neutral, and do not try to push your feet around.

The MO889 shoes have a flat footbed - no contouring at all, and the 'floor' of the shoe under the footbed is quite flat as well. This is how boots used to be made, and for very good reason too.

> If an orthotic is designed to help a problem I supposedly have (which I don't know,
> really), wouldn't it be better to use it?
Someone once wrote (here at BPL), that every podiatrist he had been too had labeled every orthotic prescribed by 'the others' as rubbish, and substituted his own.

A crutch may be good at keeping the weight off your foot while it heals, but no crutch will ever get your foot back to fitness. Me, I would get some seriously neutral footwear (or go barefoot), and work on getting my feet back to fitness. There were no such things as 'orthotics' 5,000 (or even 500) years ago.

Cheers

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
"Lacing to help heel slippage?" on 01/02/2013 15:14:48 MST Print View

Yeah but Roger the average life expectancy 5000 years ago was about 30. OK I'm guessing but you get my point. Is it possible to take the whole paleo thing too far? Throw the baby dinosaur out with the cold bath water?

Andrew DiMicelli
(adimi24)
Strength on 01/02/2013 19:54:00 MST Print View

I've put all of the regular insoles back in the shoes because of the superfeet and this has helped the heel slippage a bit (I think the superfeet are just too thick and raise my heel up too much). There is still some of slippage when I just wear my smartwool merino liner. However, I bought darn tough socks (http://www.darntough.com/hike-trek-1905.html) and somehow they seemed to have pretty much stopped most slippage in a bunch of the shoes I've been trying. Although, they are kind of thick and seem like they'll be hot and there's kind of a thick seam or something sitting almost on my pinky toe which might cause blisters so this isn't a great solution..


I understand what you're saying, Roger, however I have barely have time to even find a pair I like and try it. I leave in 8 days on a 5 month trip which includes several treks. I doubt my feet in trail runners without support and carrying a 30lbs pack will be able to handle this without any training, especially when they're used to being on superfeet for the past 5 months

Any recommendations on exercises/stretches I can do before I leave and during my trip to help my feet (though I doubt in this small amount of time I can accomplish anything)?

And about the MO899's, they only come in D and 4E. 4E is too wide for me, 2E would suit me best. D seems to be okay if shoes are sized up enough though I am still worried about the snugness of the Brook's cascadia and inov8's I have.

I went to a New Balance store today and they put me on this scanner. I have a high arch, right foot is an 11, left is a 10.5 although all the trail runners I'm trying at home right now are 12 and 12.5, and the New Balance I tried in the store ranged from 11-12 depending on the model.. The employee that was working with me said I was an SL-1 if that helps at all

Sorry for my babbling. I just don't know how you can help me nor do I know how to figure this out myself, especially in 7 days.. The shoe people in EMS, Rei, etc don't seem to know anything, I might go to this custom fit place that will measure foot volume and all that stuff, although it's over an hour away from me..

Edited by adimi24 on 01/02/2013 20:20:44 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Strength on 01/02/2013 20:05:06 MST Print View

Hi Andrew

> I leave in 8 days on a 5 month trip which includes several treks.
Ah, well, bit of a problem there.
Let me wish you good luck anyhow.

> I have a high arch, right foot is an 11, left is a 10.5
This is NOT uncommon! Yeah, it does make life difficult.
Me, I would go for the bigger size and fine tune with thick wool socks. Darn Tough Vermont are definitely my favorites. Two socks on one foot and one sock on the other?

> The shoe people in EMS, Rei, etc don't seem to know anything,
Harsh, very harsh. I am sure they did a 1 hour training course on shoe fitting. Some of them may have remembered some of it too.

Cheers

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
heel slippage - imminent quest on 01/02/2013 22:37:27 MST Print View

Roger and Andrew,
I tried all the mass-market orthotics and got nowhere until i found a good podiatrist who made me orthotics. It was like a miracle, from pain to no pain.
So please don't write off podiatry altogether.

After some torturous experiences, I vowed never to start a long trek with new footwear, or even new insoles. Maybe this is not so true if you are using low trail shoes. Andrew, maybe you could spend a few of those seven days trying on footwear to find out what feels really good right out of the box. A store with a ramp to see if your foot slides too far forward is good. And try to spend a day, or at least a few hours hiking in your first choice on rough terrain to see if the really good feel survives rough use.

After narrowing it down to a couple pairs, you might be able to keep one available as a back-up, using bounce boxes or whatever.

Hope you have a good journey.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: heel slippage - imminent quest on 01/03/2013 02:15:22 MST Print View

Hi Sam

The words 'mass market' and 'orthotics' do not fit in the same sentence. :-)

I think LW joggers are much easier to fit, but get the width right. Ultimately, go with what feels right!

Cheers