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Using 10D inside & out on sleeping bags: Changes to lofting speed & ease of stuffing? Odd feeling material?
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Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Using 10D inside & out on sleeping bags: Changes to lofting speed & ease of stuffing? Odd feeling material? on 12/29/2012 18:10:27 MST Print View

Just got my new bag...with 10D inside and out. First thing I noticed was that the bag didn't seem to loft up as fast as other bags. Second thing I noticed was that it wasn't as effortless to stuff. Seems as though the 10D material doesn't allow air to pass through as easily. I confirmed this by blowing through the material of another bag then doing the same with the 10D. More difficult to blow through 10D.

The other oddity with 10D, that I have seen no mention of, is the feel. While I may have touch sensitivities, I'm still surprised no one has mentioned this. To me, it feels a smidgen like *some* sil-nylons I have felt....and not as soft as the Pertex Quantum used on WM bags. Maybe the 10D just needs a bit of use? The other weird thing is how my fingers feel after handling this bag. I can only compare it to how my fingers feel after handling bicycle inner tubes that have that powdery coating. Washing my hands with soap and water removes whatever it is. Not a huge deal but I wonder to myself, "what are these compounds"?

For those with experience with 10D, will washing it allow air to more easily pass through for quicker lofting and stuffing? Will washing it reduce whatever it is that gets on my fingers?

Lastly, I ordered 10D for the outside for two reasons: Black for quicker drying and to save weight. I was surprised that only 1/4 oz was saved from the advertised weight of the same bag using .9 Pertex Quantum. From what I have read here, I was expecting/hoping for a savings of 1 oz.

Edited by rustyb on 12/29/2012 19:56:55 MST.

Josh Greninger
(travis.bickle)
Re: on 12/29/2012 18:15:09 MST Print View

You aren't crazy. The strange feel of the Zpacks bag is part of the reason I sold mine. I much prefer the feel of Pertex Quantum like my Nunatak Specialist.

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
Re on 12/29/2012 18:28:01 MST Print View

Zpacks uses 7d on the inside and quantum on the outside.

Michael Cheifetz
(mike_hefetz) - MLife

Locale: Israel
zpacks not anymore on 12/30/2012 00:28:01 MST Print View

@michael W - they used to do 7D/pertex but that isnt the standard anymore (IMO cause they were both $$ fabrics

as for the OP - I have a Nunatak that Tom made for me in 7D...so cant attest to the 10D...I am not sensitive to...well basically anything....but its indeed not as nice as the Taffeta that i have in the other nunatak bag.

RE finished weight...not a big surprise. Fabric weights are usually quoted WITHOUT the DWR finish so the quoted weight of the 10D is lower than actual. Note that the Pertex is 0.85osy and 0.95 finished (as per zpacks "materials" section) the TenD might easily be 0.8 osy finished. with a shell weight of say 6oz out of which 10% is baffle material it means the weight diff would be 5*(1-0.85/0.95)=0.5oz...which sort of agrees what what you measured.

RE lofting and compressing - I have a similar effect in my goosefeetgear parka

IMO its due to the use of cuben fiber baffle material as opposed to netting!!! It seems that since the cuben is airtight it doesnt allow as much flow of air through the bag - the air can only come in through the seams. When I compare my 7D nunatak bag with my 7D GFG parka - its much easier to loft and compress the bag!!

With all that said - using cuben as baffle material for such light bags - ie bags with very few baffles - is IMo and exercise in futility - you save maybe 5~10g and make it much harder to habdle

Mike

J P
(jpovs) - F - M

Locale: North Shore
Re: zpacks not anymore on 12/30/2012 00:39:16 MST Print View

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Edited by jpovs on 06/27/2014 22:40:26 MDT.

Toby Salz
(tobysalz)
zpacks on 12/30/2012 04:30:18 MST Print View

from their website currently:

"Silky soft Black .7 oz/sqyd nylon on the inside for quick drying. More durable .95 oz/sqyd Pertex Quantum ripstop nylon on the outside is treated with DWR for water repellency."

when did they change?

Toby Salz
(tobysalz)
zpacks on 12/30/2012 04:30:18 MST Print View

from zpacks website:

"Silky soft Black .7 oz/sqyd nylon on the inside for quick drying. More durable .95 oz/sqyd Pertex Quantum ripstop nylon on the outside is treated with DWR for water repellency."

did they change and not post it? i'm about to order a double quilt.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
10d on 12/30/2012 09:08:43 MST Print View

I'm still learning about nylon fabrics and such, but for what my relatively ignorant opinion is worth...

I have the EE Revelation quilt that is made with 10d and frankly I simply LOVE how it feels. I also have some down booties from goose feet that are made with 10d, and again, feels silky soft and wonderful against my bare skin.

So not sure if your problem is with 10d per se, or how it is treated perhaps?

Chad "Stick" Poindexter
(Stick) - F

Locale: Wet & Humid Southeast....
My take on 10D and final weights on 12/30/2012 10:00:55 MST Print View

I have had some experience with 10D. I picked up a few yards of the Kelley Green from Ti Goat a while back to make a quilt (although, I never made the quilt). I had a Prodigy quilt from Enlightened Equipment with a 10D inner and outer shell, and now I also have another Prodigy quilt from Enlightened Equipment with a 10D inner liner (the outer is the 15D). As well, I have a pair of down pants from GooseFeet Gear that uses 10D for the inner (Nobul 1) and outer (NoBul 2) shell as well.

All of these pieces of 10D has been awesome! No stickiness, tackiness, or powdery feeling that I have noticed. Instead, it feels almost silky smooth, but this is to me. I am really happy with it actually.

Of course, I don't have to worry too much with my quilts lofting much since they use a layer of 4 oz/sqyd Climashield Apex as the insulation, but my down pants are stuffed with 850+ down and they loft up really well. Although, I will admit, it is a tad bit easier for me to suck air through a 15D shell on my Montbell jacket than it is for me to suck air through the 10D. I have a North Face Verto windshell which is 7D Pertex Quantam and I would say that sucking air through it is about the same as the 10D.

As far as the final, finished weight, as I understand it, the listed weights for the 10D are the final, actual weights. I could be wrong, but by reading the desctiptions of 10D on the Ti Goat page, it sounds an awful lot like they are finished weights.

http://www.titaniumgoat.com/Fabric.html

10D of course used to be called 8D. Now, there are 2 versions of 10D, Nobul 1 & Nobul 2. They are both the same base material, however, the coating on the cire side of Nobul 2 is more substantial, and this difference is reflected in the listed weights. Nobul 1 is listed at 0.67 oz/sqyd and Nobul 2 is 0.76 oz/sqyd. Like I said, maybe I am wrong, so maybe someone with more first hand experience will clear this up.

Either way, I am very happy with my 10D items as far as weight and hand is concerned.

To the OP, which bag/quilt is it that you have? Have you contacted the manufacturer about this? Maybe it was a bad batch of 10D?

Edited by Stick on 12/30/2012 10:04:42 MST.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Using 10D inside & out on sleeping bags: Changes to lofting speed & ease of stuffing? Odd feeling material? on 12/30/2012 11:00:14 MST Print View

Travis Bickle: Thanks! Was it the way your fingers felt after handling 10D that you didn't like or just the feeling of the material itself???

Michael Cheifetz: Thanks for your insight. While lying in bed last night, I also thought about the cuben fiber baffles affecting the loft and stuffing speed. I think you are right (and I agree w/ your thoughts re the use of cuben here). I also think it's a combination of the cuben and the 10D material. Great looking custom Nunataks, BTW!

Jennifer Mitol: I'm not sure about your question but I suspect it's the way the 10D material is treated. I can live with the way the material feels to the touch. I really don't like the way my fingers feel after handling it though...and I can't help but be leery of anything that makes my skin feel weird.

Chad Poindexter: Thanks for your info. I have not contacted the maker. My feeling is that it's just the nature of the material...or more accurately, the particular treatment applied to the material. I sense similar feels with other DWR treated fabrics...just not to this extent. Most people probably wouldn't notice. As I mentioned before though, I may (almost certainly) have touch sensitivities.

J P
(jpovs) - F - M

Locale: North Shore
Re: Using 10D inside & out on sleeping bags: Changes to lofting speed & ease of stuffing? Odd feeling material? on 12/30/2012 11:16:58 MST Print View

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Edited by jpovs on 06/27/2014 22:39:55 MDT.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
10 D on 12/30/2012 16:15:01 MST Print View

10 D just means that the denier of the material is measured at 10 grams per 9000 meters for the filament, or for the yarn. But it doesn't tell you the weight of the fabric, because yarn of the same denier can be be woven more or less densely. The material could be anything, so long as it 10 denier. The fabric treatment could be anything. Even what a specific vendor is selling now as '10 D' could be something very different tomorrow, as no representation has been made other than that the fabric is 10 denier.

You would need something quite more specific about the material to nail it, and that's probably not going to happen so long as Alibaba and his forty thieves want to be free to alter the fabric treatment or the weaver, so long as the material is 10 denier as represented. That's one reason why the different Pertex products are popular, because customers know what they are getting, not just the denier. Also note that some companies, like Cameron, claim their fabric woven from Dupont 6,6 nylon is many times stronger than other manufacturers' nylon fabrics of the same weight.

Some of the vendors, like Thru-Hiker, have been pretty reliable with the consistency of a material they sell under a given name. They take on the headaches of sourcing material, and don't pass them on to you. With others, though, if all you know is the denier, it is probably a good idea to get fabric samples before buying either in quantity or a finished product, and to obtain an assurance that the yardgoods or product will be consistent with the sample.

Edited by scfhome on 12/30/2012 18:38:22 MST.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
10D on 12/30/2012 17:51:56 MST Print View

Zpacks 10D fabric changed significantly about 6 months ago. The first stuff was super air permeable, so much so that it wasn't very downproof although it did loft and store quickly. I haven't used the newer stuff, but it sounds like it's a lot more downproof, wind resistance and likely water resistant in exchange for the lower air permeability. I don't find the slower lofting/packing to be an issue (I had an M55 quilt, which was very low air permeability) and the slippery feel is normally great for the outside to make it more weather resistant, but if the feel of it is weird then that might not be such a great inner.