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Kovea Spider Inverted Canister Stove - More reviews?
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Here There
(cowexnihilo) - MLife
Kovea Spider Inverted Canister Stove - More reviews? on 12/29/2012 17:43:13 MST Print View

I'm interested in getting an inverted canister stove and the Kovea Spider looks pretty interesting. (Though it's only available on ebay at the moment as far as I can tell.) Unfortunately, I can only find one review and one positive mention:

http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/07/kovea-spider-stove-review.html

http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-best-gas-stove.html


Anybody else have any experience with this stove?

Thanks!

-David

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Kovea Spider Inverted Canister Stove - More reviews? on 12/29/2012 21:16:23 MST Print View

Works well.
Will be included in forthcoming article on recent stove developments.

Cheers

Here There
(cowexnihilo) - MLife
CO emissions? on 12/29/2012 21:35:17 MST Print View

Thanks Roger, glad to hear it.

Any idea how it does on CO emissions, especially as compared to something like the Primus Express Spider?

Edited by cowexnihilo on 12/29/2012 21:40:35 MST.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
inverted canister cost efficiency on 12/29/2012 22:57:24 MST Print View

Just curious about inverted canister stoves in general and while looking thru Snowpeak Japans offerings I notice despite identical heat output ratings, e.g. 2500kcal/h or 10k BTUs, their GS-320 inverted stove uses nearly 2x more fuel than the upright GS-100.

For example, the 110 isobutane/butane canister has 25min burn time vs. 55m on the upright GS-100. The 250 canister is 55min vs. 110min and the 500 canister is 125min vs. 200min.

Another thing I noticed on their Japanese site is that they only approve isobutane/butane canisters for use with their inverted stove and not the more expensive isobutane/propane canisters.

Is this higher fuel consumption typical of inverted canister stoves?

Edited by rmjapan on 12/29/2012 23:27:29 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: CO emissions? on 12/30/2012 00:04:32 MST Print View

Primus Express Spider
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/primus_express_spider_stove_review.html
CO about 10 ppm after starting spike.

Kovea Spider
Yet to publish review
CO around 10 ppm as well - a good burner head.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: inverted canister cost efficiency on 12/30/2012 00:21:49 MST Print View

> GS-320
That's a very strange stove only a mother could love...
I dunno who designed that, but I cannot see the point of it. Corporate politics maybe.
Then you get the GS-340 - another weird beast, but it takes a quite different cartridge so I can't compare.
Anyhow, I am tempted to shrug my shoulders and ignore the strange fuel consumption figures, and believe those for the GS-100.
Comment: they tried to kill off the GS-100 and GST-100 as obsolete, but customer demand seems to have restored them. Amusing.

> Is this higher fuel consumption typical of inverted canister stoves?
No, but the answer is a shade more complex.
You see, you can shut an upright canister stove off immediately by closing the valve, but when you close the valve on a traditional inverted canister arrangement you still have the fuel in the line, and that can be wasted - unless you anticipate and shut down just a shade early.
If you run a series of tests wasting the fuel in the line each time, then you may get slightly greater fuel consumption.

> they only approve isobutane/butane canisters for use with their inverted stove and
> not the more expensive isobutane/propane canisters.
That's the lawyers springing into action. IGNORE! You can use ANY screw-thread canister. Just never let the canister get too hot to touch.

Cheers

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: Re: inverted canister cost efficiency on 12/30/2012 00:33:49 MST Print View

Thanks Roger for taking a stab at my questions. From what I gather on the Japanese site is the design of the GS-320 lets it fit inside their Solo Ti Cookset. Still seems quite heavy and EXPENSIVE for what it is, especially when compared to this Kovea model.

FYI, the English pdf manual I found for the GS-320 found right here on BPL instructs the user to first turn the canister upright, wait ~10secs, then close the valve to turn the stove off. This clears the fuel line of liquid.

Also, Snowpeak approves an isobutane/propane cartridge for use in the upright canister stoves GS-100 so I don't think they have a legal issue and they even sell both mixes under their brand here in Japan. It's only the inverted canisters stoves that are shown as not compatible.

See table on this page, http://www.snowpeak.co.jp/catalog/products/list/72 where isobutane/propane mix are in gold cans and isobutane/butane mix is in silver.

So using an isobutane/butane mixture works the same as a more expensive isobutane/propane mixture in freezing conditions when a canister is inverted? Or can you take the isobutant/propane canisters to even lower temps as you can when it is used upright?

Edited by rmjapan on 12/30/2012 01:11:09 MST.

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Re: inverted canister cost efficiency on 12/30/2012 09:54:26 MST Print View

>>So using an isobutane/butane mixture works the same as a more expensive isobutane/propane mixture in freezing conditions when a canister is inverted?

Yes

>>Or can you take the isobutane/propane canisters to even lower temps as you can when it is used upright?

The minimum temperature depends on the exact ratio of isobutane/butane and isobutane/propane. The ratios actually chosen by the manufacturers are governed by the pressure limit of the canister, which must not leak or deform @ 50C. Because the canisters are all of similar construction, the low temperature limit tends to be somewhat similar for the different mixtures, with a boiling point of around -20C

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: inverted canister cost efficiency on 12/30/2012 13:51:58 MST Print View

> can you take the isobutant/propane canisters to even lower temps as you can when it is used upright?
Stuart has answered this, but here's my 2c.

Propane boils at -43 C while isobutane boils at -12 C. You would think this would make the propane mixture better able to handle the cold, but in fact the limiting factor is really the pressure inside the can and the safety regulations. Propane has a far higher vapour pressure, so they can only put less of it in the can, and the end result (for lower operating temperature) ends up being not very different.

See our article on Exploding Canisters for some light entertainment over this.

Cheers

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: Re: Re: Re: inverted canister cost efficiency on 12/30/2012 18:22:30 MST Print View

Thanks Roger and Stuart for you explanations.

I found Snowpeaks explanation as to why their inverted canister stove GS-320 uses ~2x more fuel than the upright GS-100 even though they are rated the same output.

The apparent benefit of this inverted design, besides cold weather use, is a relatively constant output of energy over time unlike an upright canister flame that gets weaker as the gas pressure falls.

See this graph.

Inverted Canister Efficiency

The blue line represents the inverted postion, the pink line upright, the Y axis is energy output, and the X axis represents time till empty. This data applies to the same stove (GS-320) in both canister configurations.

Re: using an isobutane/butane vs. isobutane/propane mix canister for inverted use. I can't find any mixture % content for the Snowpeak silver catridges (gold= 15% propane/85% isobutane) but I guess you guys are saying it probably won't make a significant difference in efficiency or extending the range of cold temperatures anyway? So best to use the cheaper silver isobutane/butane mix as they approve anyway.

Edited by rmjapan on 12/30/2012 18:24:20 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: inverted canister cost efficiency on 12/30/2012 22:51:52 MST Print View

Hi Rick

> So best to use the cheaper silver isobutane/butane mix as they approve anyway.
Use any canister you like - as long as it has some propane or lots of isobutane in it.

> Snowpeaks explanation as to why their inverted canister stove GS-320 uses ~2x more
> fuel than the upright GS-100 even though they are rated the same output.
Sorry, but while I understand their graph, it is a) not relevant and b) misleading.

The graph really just shows canister pressure as a function of use - in COLD weather. The whole point of using an inverted canister stove in cold weather is to get the constant output shown by the blue line. But this says nothing at all about fuel consumption or efficiency.

Fact: I get about the same fuel consumption from an upright canister stove as I do from an inverted canister stove.

I don't know where Snow Peak got their GS-320 figures from, but they are seriously weird. I won't say they are 'wrong' - but I might very well think it.

You need to read lots of our technical articles on stoves. You are a financial Member so you can. There's to much to summarise here.

Cheers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: inverted canister cost efficiency on 12/31/2012 00:16:27 MST Print View

"You are a financial Member so you can."

What the heck is that? It isn't listed anywhere.

--B.G.--

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Kovea Spider Inverted Canister Stove - More reviews? on 02/08/2013 16:50:50 MST Print View

Hi, David,

I got a Kovea Spider in May or June of last year. I think it's a really nice stove.


A lot of remote canisters seem to be just white gas stoves (i.e. heavy) converted to use gas. The Kovea Spider looks a whole lot more like a canister stove.


And it folds up quite compactly.


It fits in my 780ml Snow Peak pot with room to spare.


She'll have to wait for her supper, but not for long...


...because it's got plenty of power.


It's well designed and well built. My favorite to come out in 2012.


I think there are still some things they could do to lighten it up, but it's really a good stove. I find myself taking it along any time I'm going to be cooking for a group even if I'm not going to use it's liquid feed capabilities.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 02/08/2013 16:52:53 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Kovea Spider Inverted Canister Stove - More reviews? on 02/08/2013 18:02:48 MST Print View

Jim,

Will the stove head work well inside of a titanium Caldera cone? In inverted mode, with no pot, does the feed line tend to invert the stove like happens with the old style MSR WindPro?

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Kovea Spider Inverted Canister Stove - More reviews? on 02/08/2013 18:15:00 MST Print View

In inverted mode, with no pot, does the feed line tend to invert the stove like happens with the old style MSR WindPro?
No, the couple rotates smoothly, just like the Windpro II. I suspect the coupler on the Windpro II is actually made by Kovea. It's really smooth.

Will the stove head work well inside of a titanium Caldera cone?
Well, that's a really good question, but I don't know. You won't hurt the titanium cone, but maybe the stove would be a bit starved for oxygen? Just speculating. I haven't tried it. I suspect the pot stands might elevate the pot a bit out of the cone, but again I haven't tried it. One could modify the pot supports for use inside the cone. That might be a really cool option. Not sure how it would work though. One has to be concerned with the pot height above the burner head. I'll take a look this weekend...

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Kovea Spider Inverted Canister Stove - More reviews? on 02/11/2013 01:00:01 MST Print View

Ah, shoot. I didn't get a chance to fire up the Kovea Spider this weekend. I spent time investigating the Soto MicroRegulator in cold weather (I put up a blog post re my findings) and ran out of time. Maybe I can get to it during the week...

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 02/11/2013 01:00:56 MST.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Kovea Spider with Ti Tri Cone on 02/24/2013 22:12:37 MST Print View

I took my Kovea Spider stove, Evernew 1300ml pot, and a Ti-Tri cone out.

First off, the pot stands of the Kovea Spider are plenty big to support a 1300ml pot.


When I put the Ti-Tri cone in place, I noticed a couple of things:
1. The pot stands push the pot up above the rim of the the Ti-Tri cone about 1 1/16th inches (about 27mm).
2. The hose of the Spider has to be fed under the lower edge of the Ti-Tri, which causes the Ti-Tri to jut up about 1/4 inch (about 6mm).

Since the pot sticks up a bit (but not bad really), you will a) lose some heat transfer since not as much of the pot will be within the cone which causes exhaust gases to flow along the sides of the pot and b) you'll lose some heat to convection since wind can now strike the exposed portion of the pot.

I suspect both of the losses described in "a" and "b" above will be minor. The pot really doesn't stick up that bad. I think the Ti-Tri will probably be more efficient than my usual windscreen, an MSR windscreen, which has better height but doesn't control air flow.


HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Kovea Spider with Ti Tri Cone on 02/25/2013 11:48:37 MST Print View

Wood Trekker just posted a Long Term Review of the Kovea Spider this morning. It's not a heavily technical review, but it shows a lot of use.

The Kovea Spider is definitely my favorite canister stove to come out in 2012.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Kovea Spider with Ti Tri Cone on 03/03/2013 13:14:06 MST Print View

I've completed a review of the Kovea Spider: The Kovea Spider (KB-1109) Remote Canister Stove. Have a look if you like.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Kovea Spider with Ti Tri Cone on 03/07/2013 11:48:49 MST Print View

Another review: Overview burner Kovea Spider KB-1109

Google translate is a little rough (it's written apparently in Russian), but there are some good photos.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 03/07/2013 11:53:50 MST.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Photo: Kovea Spider with Ti Tri, Caldera Cones on 03/08/2013 16:29:42 MST Print View

Kovea Spider with "standard" Caldera Cone and MSR Titan kettle.


Kovea Spider with Sidewinder Ti-Tri Cone and 1.3L Evernew pot.


HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 03/08/2013 16:32:23 MST.