Forum Index » Chaff » Newtown -- Who Here Changed His (or Her) Mind?


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Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Euro Democracy on 01/22/2013 18:00:02 MST Print View

My father used to shock students by saying a lynch mob is the perfect example of democracy in motion. "Hey they all voted to hang the guy so it must be okay right?" The point of course was pure democracy without something like the Bill of Rights wasn't such a good thing.

Edited because I realized the first draft could be read way wrong.

Edited by Cameron on 01/22/2013 18:12:17 MST.

Ben Crocker
(alexdrewreed) - M

Locale: Kentucky
Overthrow on 01/22/2013 18:04:00 MST Print View

GT, do you live in Kentucky? :)
And no, I do not think our gubmint needs overthrown. Maybe if they make it mandatory that I carry a firearm then I will consider it. But I'd probably just see if New Zealand would adopt me I'm getting too old to overthrow a government anymore.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Education on 01/22/2013 18:05:26 MST Print View

"The erosion continues, executive order by executive order, and law by law."

Tom,

All of this is good for debate and the discussion of principles and ideas. And we need not argue (this is not towards you and me). I doubt these discussions change anyone's mind.

To be honest, I hope Newtown did not change anyone's mind.

Now, I need to explain that last sentence. I hope anyone who had an opinion on gun control, made that decision based on firm philosophical principles.

Whenever I see these kinds of posts, especially when it concerns the Middle East, I always look to your insight. Now, our founding fathers believed the militias/standing armies should only be to protect us from foreign invaders and to protect the population from tyranny. These were principles, and I am a black & white kind of guy, principles trump practicalism. So this nation-building and protecting business interests with force has no place in our society. It does not surprise me at all that so many people in the Middle East hate us and that terrorists target us. We lost our moral compass with these "police actions," and they have lead to the erosion you mentioned.

Ben Crocker
(alexdrewreed) - M

Locale: Kentucky
Lynch mobs on 01/22/2013 18:07:13 MST Print View

Luke, I'm assuming you dad was not a black man of the south.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: Re: Why do we need them? on 01/22/2013 18:08:19 MST Print View

"Founding fathers did not like democracies. But I digress..."

True. Our founding fathers wanted to keep control of the government in the hands of the rich, white, landed gentry, and this still seems to be the case in practice (hey, Obama IS half white after all). All the amendments to the constitution were an attempt at changing this balance of power, but there are few, if any, true democracies, AKA mob-rule in the world. I think it is mostly a good thing that mob-rule is not the norm in America, but I still feel public referendums are a useful way of setting change in motion that reflects the desires of the majority of voters. Of course referendums cost money, and are not popular with those that are already in power who risk losing some of that power...

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Lynch Mobs on 01/22/2013 18:09:39 MST Print View

Maybe that came off wrong the first time. His point was democracy can be horrible for the little guy. Just because 51% vote for it doesn't automatically make it right.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Why do we need them? on 01/22/2013 18:10:04 MST Print View

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a good deal of people need them simply to protect their right to have them from those that they believe would take them away.

Anyone notice how every time "they" are going to take all the guns away "they" never do, but sales of arms and ammo shoot through the roof? Wish I could come up with a business model that good. I'm sure The Freedom Group is laughing all the way to the bank.

I'll be damned if Zero Dark Thirty didn't make me want to put on my tactical vest, load the AR15, and pose in front of the mirror for a few hours. I bet that movie alone was responsible for a few million in .223 sales.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
The Media - Interesting on 01/22/2013 18:12:21 MST Print View

I just saw that there was a shooting today in Texas.

So I turned on the TV. Well... it seems the big news story today is that Beyonce did not sing the National Anthem yesterday, it was pre-recorded.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: The Media - Interesting on 01/22/2013 18:14:44 MST Print View

I must say she did a very good job of lip-synching!

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: The Media , MUCH more relevant on 01/22/2013 18:18:54 MST Print View

OK, so near the top of our headlines at the moment is this:

German soldiers are growing breasts

Three quarters of the Wachbataillon have been diagnosed with the embarrassing condition.

It sounds like a joke from 'Allo, 'Allo: soldiers from a German elite fighting force are growing breasts.

According to a medical report, soldiers in the Wachbataillon unit have been slapping their rifles a bit too hard on the left side of their chests during drills.

The repeated slapping has stimulated the soldiers' glands, giving them breasts.

The condition is called one-sided gynecomastia and has affected three quarters of the battalion.

Professor Bjorn Krapohl, director of plastic surgery at the German Armed Forces Hospital of Berlin, told the German Herald: "There is a very significant link between the activity in the Guard Battalion and the development of the breast on the left side.

"They need to change the way they drill. The constant slamming of the rifles against the left hand side of the chest is clearly a significant factor."

Clearly something any well-regulated militia needs to be wary of!!

Ben Crocker
(alexdrewreed) - M

Locale: Kentucky
Poking on 01/22/2013 18:18:56 MST Print View

Luke, I hope you can tell that I'm mostly having fun at the expense of the gunners tonight.
But for the record, I am FULLY in favor of your state's natural right to secede. I think you've earned it

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
More media today from NZ on the topic on 01/22/2013 18:25:13 MST Print View

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/8208745/Why-America-embarrasses-us-all

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
1800s-Militia being called up by the Federal government on 01/22/2013 18:25:20 MST Print View

I don't believe the Federal Government exercised any regulatory authority over the local militias back then.

Luke, actually the federal government has always had the power to mobilize militias; I've been reading up on the first militia engagement Harmar's campaign and St. Clair's Defeat during the Northwest Indian War of the late 1780s-1790's (our present day US Midwest). Seems a lot of militia were massacred outright. In response to this loss, the US reluctantly raised a standing army called the "Legion of the US" and won a decisive campaign against those tribes and their supporters ("Battle of Fallen Timbers"). Of course the Natives lost way more during the ensuring"Indian Wars". The US Civil War had militia called out to support national armies on both sides but what what really brought our modern National Guard/Reserve system were equipment standardization problems during the Spanish-American War (amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics). Now Reserve and NG units can easily merge with active units (think Britain has something similar with the Home Guard). Interestingly, many states have an independent, organized "State Guard" but they weren't allowed assault weapons last I checked. That concludes what I remember from my required Military History class and subsequent reading, though who might have actually been there can set the record straight ;-)

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

Edited by hknewman on 01/22/2013 18:30:19 MST.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Poking and 1800s on 01/22/2013 19:04:10 MST Print View

I try to be fair to everyone Ben:) I like the rest of the country but if Texas wants to succeed I don't think I'd leave. It would be perfect if it had more mountains.

HK I had not heard about the Northwest wars but I had heard about problems during the Spanish American War. It was well known that Washington's regulars fought better then local militia (Daniel Morgan even took this into consideration at the Battle of the Cowpens and planned on having the militia break and run).

I think the move to professionalize and standardize the Guard was a good thing but we lost the original purpose of the militia in my opinion. I think the original idea was that the citizen militia would be the first line of defense. Since citizens are not going to oppress themselves that eliminated the problem of a tyrant using the army to oppress.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why do we need them? on 01/22/2013 19:06:36 MST Print View

"Mayonnaise? Now that IS unpatriotic. Or should I say British?"

Actually, very German. I fell in love with dipping fries in mayo while living in Germany. Their mayo is a bit different than ours, as well.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Poking and 1800s on 01/22/2013 19:14:36 MST Print View

"I like the rest of the country but if Texas wants to succeed I don't think I'd leave. It would be perfect if it had more mountains."

Texas might just succeed if people can get over wanting it to secede...

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: modern NG as militia on 01/22/2013 19:23:43 MST Print View

Luke, they still respond to local disasters (and/or riots too) and I've actually have had some experience in this as an active commander of one of these reserve forces centers about 5-6 years ago. Example: In the case of the flood, the local NG troops (but not Reserves) get called in and put on a spreadsheet. The spreadsheet goes to the state payroll office and the state pays them - though not nearly as much as when federalized. Pretty simple and it's meant to be since it's an emergency. States and federal can call up NG but only federal can call up the Reserves. There's a little wiggle room in there since Katrina but more minutia than anything else - everyone has a rank regardless of status. Now those states with an additional state guard cannot have them called up by the feds, but they aren't supported by fed $$ in anyway either, it's purely state and often out of their own pockets. Unlike NG or Reserves who get a partial paycheck/bennies and fully equipped through the regular military.

State mobilized troops are then put under control of the sheriff or supervising state trooper (varies by state). Again this happens very quickly but the state pays for the fuel, food, etc.. (though using equipment given to them by the feds).

When they get deployed and federalized as part of the regular military, it is now a well-planned process where the payroll goes to the federal base, they get a proper train-up even before leaving home, re-swearing in, more training, full fed pay/bennies (as required), and in the case of NG, leave a sizable contingent back at the home state, etc....

It's no longer, "hey you in the green!!!" ... usually.

Edited by hknewman on 01/22/2013 19:37:12 MST.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
We don't need or want the French on 01/22/2013 19:25:10 MST Print View

The French are well remembered in this part of the world for detonating nuclear weapons on little Pacific Island atolls and blowing up Green Peace vessels. So we try not to call them French Fries. We call them 'chips' (as in fish and chips) or 'fries', and dip them in whatever we feel like. Ketchup, mayo, sour cream, aioli or sometimes just sprinkle them with vinegar. Or just plain old salt. My eldest son prefers BBQ sauce!

Of course, we also got off-side with the Americans for a couple of decades when we decided to ban nuclear powered or armed ships from entering our waters. I think we have kind of patched things up now though. We also try to use terms like 'Traditional Method' instead of 'Champagne', Fish eggs or roe instead of caviar and a few other name changes to play the same game as the French.

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
"Newtown -- Who Here Changed His (or Her) Mind?" on 01/22/2013 19:26:49 MST Print View

Thousands of people are shot each year in this country because the nra types are worried that pol pot is going to take over the country. Or hitler. Or some such tyrannical boogeyman. Hasn't ever happened; isn't in our tradition; don't see it on the horizon; but this is the fearsome claim. So, by this logic of "possible Martian takeover" we can't try to rein in weapons that murder thousands of civilians every year out of "respect" for the paranoid fantasies of a very few people. Sure, mad scientists could bring back the dinosaurs, and wouldn't you want your assault weapon then? Meanwhile, there's just been another shooting in Texas; but it's a daily occurrence so who's counting? Basically, the nra's position boils down to, "in the face of reality, I have a right to my madness." "Philosophy" trumps the reality of Newtown and all of our towns. It's the constitution of Murderville.

During the civil rights era there were millions of (white)people who "defended to the death" (not their own, but black peoples' death) the same kind of Lordly Constitutional Principles that enshrined Their Kind of Democracy. Blacks were definitely not welcome.

I bring this up to point out that people's attitudes change over time. Women get to vote! They couldn't during the Holy Founders' days. That changed; democracy didn't end as people screamed it would: rather it advanced. Our society is always evolving; it must if it's vital; and this always freaks people out.

Compared to the great struggles towards freedom in our society this gun laws issue is a footnote or less. We will restrict access to assault weapons and other types of guns because the majority of people are already sickened by the result of current policy and will grow more so as the inevitable carnage continues.

And yes the Common Good and Individual Rights will always be in tension. This may be a case where responsible people on the Libertarian end of the spectrum take a hit because too many irresponsible people overwhelm in a bad way the common good.

Edited by book on 01/22/2013 19:36:04 MST.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn) - M

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: We don't need or want the French on 01/22/2013 19:29:45 MST Print View

I think I will start a Kickstarter to develop a video series about how to dip french fries in different condiments. I will need a few volunteers to help. Anyone interested.