Newtown
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jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Outsourcing security on 01/28/2013 14:46:25 MST Print View

oops - Brad beat me to it

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: Outsourcing security on 01/28/2013 15:24:49 MST Print View

Point taken Brad and Jerry. America IS a big place, with a big population, and I have no doubt that the high murder-by-gun rates reflect a lot of crime in particularly bad urban areas. However, it does not change the picture that, when someone DOES go off their rocker in America, it is much easier to grab a gun or guns and kill a lot of people at once. It also does not change the overall murder-by-gun rate, though a lot of this is probably between people that know eachother or are involved in gangs. However, I would take little assurance from knowing that if my husband got pissed with me, he might well just grab a gun and shoot me rather than slap me around, hit me or stab me in a manner hopefully less than fatal. Of course, I would not knowingly be living with a man who owned a gun, unless it was for hunting purposes only and locked away in a strongbox separate from the ammo. I certainly wouldn't live with a man who owned a pistol or semi-auto of any sort...so I might be just as safe living in America as anywhere else in the OECD. But I honestly don't think this is just media hype. In this part of the world, it is big news when a firearm is used in a criminal way, and we would definitely hear about it just the same as in America, even more so because we have a smaller population and less gun crime, so it's really even bigger news. An armed defender call out (i.e. police with guns) is always big news! We only hear about American gun violence when it involves a mass shooting, or shooting of someone famous...but again, I recognise this is in large part due to our small population.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
[x] on 01/28/2013 15:39:38 MST Print View

[x]

Edited by RogerDodger on 02/07/2013 15:36:05 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Newtown on 01/28/2013 16:51:04 MST Print View

"I just don't know where you get the notion that people are walking around in fear."

Then why do so many people want to carry a concealed weapon? More generally, if they aren't walking around afraid, why do they feel the need to have weapons for self defense in the home? I'm not talking hunting rifles and shotguns here.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Outsourcing security on 01/28/2013 16:59:27 MST Print View

I agree with you Lynn, that at least for me, having a gun in the house would statistically be more likey to be used by someone inappropriately, than against a bad guy trying to do us harm.

Either accident, suicide, getting angry at someone else, a curious child,...

But, if someone wants to own a gun, fine with me, their decision, no matter how illogical : )

I've done some target shooting which was fun.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Outsourcing security on 01/28/2013 17:13:25 MST Print View

I like the comments in your article Roger

"You're a moron"

"No, you're a moron"

and at lower level of response, it get's squished narrower and narrower

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re:Armed home invasion on 01/28/2013 17:22:34 MST Print View

"I'm curious, if an armed home invasion robbery happened upon you, would you wish that your home and husband had an easily accessible firearm to protect your loved ones, or would you opt for the police and coroner to wrap it up?"

I find your question reflects the fear that many say doesn't really exist in America. Of course, if faced with an armed home invasion, I would expect anyone in our household to use whatever defense was available. But armed home invasions are so rare in NZ, that the idea of having a gun under the pillow 'just in case' is almost a non-sequitor. The chances that someone else in the house would use the gun accidentally or intentionally to harm me or themselves strikes me as a much greater threat.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
No I don't, Yes you do, on 01/28/2013 17:26:13 MST Print View

UK is violent crime capital of Europe

"The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

and

"Why is the crime rate in new zealand so much higher than other places?
What are some reasons why there are so many assaults/ homicides in New Zealand? Poverty? or some other reasons?"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081210195700AASbXVc

---

Much of how people perceive things has to do with the media.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re:Armed home invasion (walking around in fear) on 01/28/2013 17:40:39 MST Print View

I would like the opportunity to respond to the common expression of (gun carrier = walking around in fear)

I do not have that fear being described. If I see clouds in the sky, I take the precaution of carrying an umbrella. Often times, it doesn't rain and the umbrella remains dry. I'm not afraid of the cloud, I'm not afraid of water or getting wet.

I do not plan on being in a car accident today (or ever,) but not IF, rather WHEN the car accident will happen in my next 40 years, I am comforted that I have airbags and safety features in the car, as well as car insurance.

It's a matter of perceiving a potential for risk, and mitigating the risk - by doing something about it.

Many people that walk around with "ignorance is bliss" and "can't happen to me" attitudes, are risk assessment optimists.

I prefer to believe that "chance favors the prepared mind"

And then there is Murphy's Law which always mocks us with irony. My friend is a Woman-Cop in San Francisco, a heavily regulated strictest gun control city in the nation. That is strict laws for law abiding citizens only.

When she is on-duty she is required to carry. When she is off-duty, it's optional. She often carries in her purse when she goes dancing with the girls on Friday night. She swears that the only 2 times in 10 years as a cop, when she didn't carry her firearm off-duty, that is when all hell broke loose at a dance club and another time at a beach bar. Both times she was unable to protect the innocent, because there is one Bruce Lee, and we're not him.

It's not paranoia, it's Murphy's Law, we've all experienced it.


PS: Lynn, it's not stored loaded under the pillow. There is very good affordable technology on the market for a shoebox sized safe, that opens with your biometric fingerprints as the password. Quick to open, open only for authorized persons, small enough to be near the bed, and reasonably priced.

Edited by RogerDodger on 01/28/2013 17:49:32 MST.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Fear on 01/28/2013 17:46:03 MST Print View

"I find your question reflects the fear that many say doesn't really exist in America. Of course, if faced with an armed home invasion, I would expect anyone in our household to use whatever defense was available. But armed home invasions are so rare in NZ, that the idea of having a gun under the pillow 'just in case' is almost a non-sequitor. The chances that someone else in the house would use the gun accidentally or intentionally to harm me or themselves strikes me as a much greater threat."

That's how most American's operate I believe. But there are some that do have real safety concerns. The folks I know that have
a concealed weapons permit usually are ex law enforcement, judges, jewelers, the openly gay, women who have stalkers threatening them, solo skiers and hikers in mountain lion and grizzly bear country, single women living far from town, and Tea Party members who want to exercise their rights.

Otherwise if you stay away from drugs, gangs, and adultery, you probably have little to worry about.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re:Armed home invasion (walking around in fear) on 01/28/2013 17:59:01 MST Print View

"I do not have that fear being described. If I see clouds in the sky, I take the precaution of carrying an umbrella. Often times, it doesn't rain and the umbrella remains dry. I'm not afraid of the cloud, I'm not afraid of water or getting wet.

I do not plan on being in a car accident today (or ever,) but not IF, rather WHEN the car accident will happen in my next 40 years, I am comforted that I have airbags and safety features in the car, as well as car insurance.

It's a matter of perceiving a potential for risk, and mitigating the risk - by doing something about it."

OK, I'm not sure I've ever seen a statistic showing how many people are accidentally or intentionally 'harmed' by an umbrella, though I have been pretty close to having one poked in my eye on several occasions...

I HAVE heard of airbags deploying accidentally and harming people, but I believe it is pretty rare. I have definitely heard of insurance companies harming people, but it's not usually physical harm and thus not life-threatening.

In my perception of potential for risk, I see having a locked and loaded handgun in the house as a much greater risk than being the victim of a home invasion. Just like I see the risk for harm from an airbag mis-deploying is less than the risks of harm if I don't have airbags. So I guess we have different perceptions of risk and harm when it comes to guns in the home. However, I understand that armed home invasions are rampant in parts of the US. This is purely due to the easy access criminals have to guns and a lack of effective counter-terrorism measures. I guess I hope I never live in those places (that is, places where criminals have easy gun access). I guess along those lines, I also wouldn't live with a man who decided it was time to move the family to D.C...

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: No I don't, Yes you do, on 01/28/2013 18:11:57 MST Print View

David, good point about media, but I guess I am somewhat immune to media sensationalism as I feel relatively safe, and so I should as reflected in that link. The stats for living in America ARE scarier, and I'm just really glad I no longer live there :) But even I admitted that one of the effects of living in a country with a small population is that very little crime escapes reporting in the media. So we tend to be aware of every little bit of open violence, whether perpetrated with a gun or otherwise. The violence that is under-reported is domestic and child abuse. It is a hidden epidemic because, unless it results in death, we mostly don't hear about it. Burglary is also a big problem, but it is usually of a non-violent nature as most crims choose to pick on houses they expect are empty. Lack of guns makes burglars less brazen. Maybe the thought of having to stab their way out of an encounter puts them off?

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Newtown on 01/28/2013 18:35:43 MST Print View

"Then why do so many people want to carry a concealed weapon? More generally, if they aren't walking around afraid, why do they feel the need to have weapons for self defense in the home? I'm not talking hunting rifles and shotguns here."

Well maybe because we have about 1.2 million or 386 per 100,000 violent crimes committed each year. I think you will find that the vast majority of the people with carry conceal permits like the option to carry conceal when the need arises.

I really think it is pretty simple why people want a weapon for self defense in the home. Your odds are much better if you have a gun when confronted by a criminal in your home. However just because you have one for protection doesn't mean you live in fear. I think it's just the opposite.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: No I don't, Yes you do, on 01/28/2013 18:44:07 MST Print View

"Lack of guns makes burglars less brazen. Maybe the thought of having to stab their way out of an encounter puts them off?"

I don't understand this logic. In the US they are less brazen because they fear the homeowner might have a gun.

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
Financial implications of using a gun on 01/28/2013 20:20:20 MST Print View

It's all about the risk/reward ratio. As David O noted, some (emphasis on "some") have a need for protection.
"Gun use for anything other then shooting sports or hunting has some really horrific consequences. Guns used in self-defense almost always result in horrendous legal complications, including the sale of assets to pay for legal fees, the loss of job and income and bankruptcy. Not always, but it happens often enough in self-defense cases that is certainly bears mentioning.There is also rejection by family, friends and neighbors, and even stalking and harassment by police, and the “victims” families (the real victims are those who are attacked, not the dead criminals). If you’ve managed to stay out of jail, using a gun in self-defense can mean your life is ruined anyway. You may be alive, but you may need to start over also. In effect, guns used in self-defense could embark you upon a one-way street of legal complications, the possibility of hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal costs and a nightmarish experience that chews you up and spits you out in the end. In other words, use a gun in self-defense and it’s going to cost you, no matter what."
http://survivalacres.com/blog/gun-control/#more-4359

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re:Financial implications of using a gun on 01/28/2013 21:29:46 MST Print View

HA! My sister was shot while standing outside someones house in the early morning hours. Apparently there was some confusion (wrong address), a mistaken identity (sister shared the same as his daughter), and of course it was dark and the homeowner was inisde his house and did not announce he had a gun when he told her not to move. Being a silly 16yr old, she moved and he shot her through his window. Fortunately, he was a poor shot and was not using hollow point bullets, missing her femoral artery with the .357 bullet passing cleanly thru her thigh. Holding her hand while the ER doctor passed a foot long Q-tip thru the holes in her leg is a lifelong memory for me.

Now this was San Antonio, Texas in 1985 when gun laws were even stricter than now, but the police/DA did not feel there was any violation of the law (despite the law basicly saying you cannot shoot anyone when they are outside you home) and a civil judge ruled against our civil suit to recover the ~$15k in medical costs she incurred since obviously a homeowner has a right to be confused and in fear for his life at night.

Recently I read in the San Antonio news an argument broke out while folks were standing in line INSIDE the mall waiting to get into Sears for a Black Friday sale. Guy punches another guy in the nose and second guys pulls his gun causing everyone to run for their lives. Guy realizes the terror he just caused and lowers the gun without firing a shot. Police let him go since he had a carry permit and within his rights as he "feared for his life". Sears gives him a free shopping voucher since he missed the sale.

So really, you can pull a gun with the intent of lethal force and face little legal or financial impunity now as long as you have a legal permit and a cause, even if the cause is far from life threating. Just like on TV!

Edited by rmjapan on 01/28/2013 21:35:27 MST.

Eric Johnson
(unimog) - MLife

Locale: Utah
Financial implications of using a gun on 01/28/2013 21:30:48 MST Print View

The use of a firearm is definitely a last resort. I suspect that every person who carries a gun has thought through the financial and other consequences as it is part of the training required to have a permit. If I do ever get in a situation in which my safe escape or the protection of innocent people around me depended on my use of a firearm, hopefully the last thing to enter my mind would be the financial consequences of the decision.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
[x] on 01/28/2013 21:42:12 MST Print View

[x]

Edited by RogerDodger on 02/07/2013 15:34:56 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Financial implications of using a gun on 01/28/2013 22:02:38 MST Print View

Roger, you'll gladly put your assets up for an opportunity to protect your family

What if, heaven forbid, one of your family members accidentally killed someone or you accidentally killed one of your family members?

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
[x] on 01/28/2013 23:02:50 MST Print View

[x]

Edited by RogerDodger on 02/07/2013 15:35:30 MST.