"Insane reasoning is walking around with a gun because you are afraid that someone else with a gun might assault you."

Nope.

Insane is pretending that someone else will be there to protect you and your family if the need arises. They most assuredly will not be.

Hedging your bet by staying out of trouble,and in large groups is a good start.


I had a coworker a few yrs back who lived out in the country on about 20 acres, so his neighbors were far away. His pregnant wife was home alone with their small 1 yr old child one early one morning while he was at work. She heard a sound at their back door and walked in the kitchen, and listened. She also saw the door knob turning slowly.

She fired her gun thru the kitchen door.

When the police got there, they looked around and no one was there. They did not believe her at first, until they realized there was no bullet hole in the outer screen door, which a spring keeps always closed unless someone is holding it open.


WHen my wife was 20, she was followed home one night and someone tried to break down the door to the townhouse she lived in. She had a purse gun,a small .25 cal and got it out, fortunately for her she screamed that she was going to shoot and the person left.

When I was small, we lived on the edge of town, in a rural area. My mom went to pick us up from school one day, for some reason my dad was off work and sleeping in their bedroom. He woke up and a man was standing in the bedroom, he asked what are you doing here? and the guy said "your wife let me in". My dad reached into the nightstand and pulled out his browning 9MM and the guy took off. The guy had unlocked several windows in the house , planning to come back that night.



THese are the type cases you never hear about.

You can be assured, that for every innocent life taken you hear about , plenty of other lives have been spared and crimes/rapes prevented by the presence of firearms.

Edited by livingontheroad on 12/19/2012 16:21:35 MST.

Ben C.

Our dad's had different circumstances. My dad was delivering at night in a high crime area in Charlotte. Only time he carried the gun was at a few stores, so less than 5% of the time. In my small town nobody carries guns around on their hip. Probably seen it once or twice in my whole life. However many have them in their car and homes.

"Why is everyone assaulting each other? Is it because the law permits unstable people access to guns?"

The law in NC actually doesn't allow unstable (or at least those diagnosed by mental health professionals) people to own a gun. Also felonies and many less crimes will prevent you from owning a gun.

However I don't think that was your real question. I think you think anyone who wants to own a firearm is just insane and unstable. In your world if we outlawed firearms all the assaults, murders and crimes would just go away.

Brad, I suspect my dad's reaction probably had more to do with his background in WWII. He spent a few years in Germany at a bad time. He never really talked about it. But I don't think he wanted to carry a gun once he got back from that.

Why does it matter what people outside the US think?

Very true. I guess it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Then I also guess that it is high time that Americans stop criticizing everyone else and putting out government sanctioned lists about who is violating human rights and and who is part of an Axis of Evil and such, too. Because really, what does it matter what Americans think about bad things happening in the rest of the world? Most of it isn't happening to them, right? And those countries aren't their countries to criticize.

But seriously, you do have a point (and in the same vein I, too, have the utmost respect for you. You've always argued fairly and with an open mind). And I'm sorry to offer whatever unwelcome thoughts I might have in trying to help the situation. (though it concerns me, too, since my entire family is American and they all live in Massachusetts and New York).

I guess that effectively eliminates all of us here outside the States from this discussion. Carry on then, I guess. If you don't mind the massacres and such, certainly how you deal with it is your own concern. Please don't take offense at the way all the rest of us out here keep shaking our heads in disbelief and mutter irritation at the continuous plastering all over the world news about American horror and shock and sorrow over something that is as perennial as Christmas and no one seems to want to get serious about doing something about. It's hard to have much sympathy for people who keep lamenting something, but take no unified action. Arguing about it seems particularly immature. I wonder what it would take to get the message into the entire populace's head once and for all? I don't even want to contemplate that.

MB wrote "Insane is pretending that someone else will be there to protect you and your family if the need arises. They most assuredly will not be."

As a former LEO, I completely agree.




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Edited by wandering_bob on 12/19/2012 16:41:54 MST.

" I had a coworker a few yrs back who lived out in the country on about 20 acres, so his neighbors were far away. His pregnant wife was home alone with their small 1 yr old child one early one morning while he was at work. She heard a sound at their back door and walked in the kitchen, and listened. She also saw the door knob turning slowly.

She fired her gun thru the kitchen door."

Exactly the type of person who shouldn't have a gun.

I'm all for people having guns if they have shown they can safely operate them, are of sound mind, and have no history of violence. Gun ownership comes with a certain responsibility. Unfortunately, there are no prerequisites to ownership.

I'm former active duty 82nd, Guard SF MI, all sorts of weapons training by some of the best in the world.

If you can guarantee no one else has a firearm I will gladly give mine up. I'll take my chances in a streetfight instead, I think on average ill come out pretty good.

Beyond the obvious there is another issue that makes me sad. The day after a prayer vigil was held on the school campus, it was probably the first and the last. I guess there is one more way I would give up my firearms, allow prayer back in schools, I think that would be a worthy trade.

Edited by FatTexan on 12/19/2012 17:00:48 MST.

"
She fired her gun thru the kitchen door."

Exactly the type of person who shouldn't have a gun.
"


Not neccessarily. While I agree that you should always see your target, sometimes it may not be prudent to allow it to get that far. I related only what I recall being told. I think she had recently talked to her husband so she was sure it could not be him. I was there with him when she called him to tell him what had happened.

Under the laws in many states, you are explicitly allowed to use deadly force against intruders in your home, business, or car, whether or not they are armed.

Trying to gain forcible access to someone home via a back-door certainly qualifies as an intruder.


Could such actions lead to some kind of mistake. Yes.

But they can also have a very different outcome in certain circumstances if someone hesitates as well. The obligation is not on the victim to hesitate or retreat. There are "stand your ground" laws that cover this.

Edited by livingontheroad on 12/19/2012 17:39:12 MST.

Miguel,

I apologize for not doing a good job writing my response. My fault.

I certainly like hearing comments from those outside the US. We surely have our share of problems and can learn from others. I personally think we can make changes to our gun laws to improve things, but to take a position of basically outlawing guns is not the answer for the US. What works in one country doesn't necessarily work in another country. Culture and history play a big role often times.

If I was outside the US I would be shaking my head at why does the country have such a large prison population and violent crime rate. Not that we allow citizens to purchase and own firearms. Again gun laws don't stop criminals from getting guns, just law abiding citizens.

Worth reading the whole are article with an open mind

Christopher-

I teach in a California public high school. Prayer is not outlawed at all; I don't know where people get this idea. Anybody that wants to pray in any form they choose may do so during non-instructional time. We have teachers that lead prayer groups with students during lunch on a voluntary basis nearly every day. This is pretty common in public high schools.

Of course, we extend the courtesy to all religious denominations present; Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Jehovah's Witnesses, any subgroup within those groups, and then some. All are present to some degree on my highly diverse campus.

I regularly see a student-led Christian prayer group gathering in front of our flagpole every morning. We also have a Muslim group that does so in a classroom at lunch every day. We also have a few "interfaith" groups that meet to discuss and contrast each other's theology.

As long as it is voluntary and during non-instructional time, people are welcome to pray as much as they choose.

Would you prefer it in the classroom during instructional time and/or during schoolwide assemblies and gatherings?

I do have a good friend and co-worker that practices Sufi Islam that would be more than competent and willing to lead school-wide prayers if asked.
Our Advanced Placement Biology and Physiology teacher is a devout Jew with many interesting spiritual insights. She would be more than happy to lead a prayer; I've been to her house for Passover and she speaks quite passionately.
There are a few Hindi faculty members that would be more than happy to share the teachings and conversations of Lord Krishna and Arjuna.
Of course there are also quite a few different denominations of Christian faculty on campus as well, from Catholics to Southern Baptists to born-again Evangelicals, though I doubt they can all agree on details such as pre-trib vs. post-trib rapture or whether or not homosexuality is a sin...a pretty diverse group in and of themselves.

So who should lead the prayers?

All are very capable, thoughtful, and kind adults that could have a great and lasting impact on our students if given the opportunity.

Thank you Craig. That was brilliant. The prohibition in not against prayer in schools, it is against compulsory prayer in schools. I'm not going to elaborate on this. Think about it.

As a devout Christian I really appreciate this legal protection and have the greatest respect for the foresight of our founding fathers in insisting upon it.

Edited by obxcola on 12/19/2012 20:31:13 MST.

"I know of at least one occasion where he was threatened with a gun in his work. "

True story - I was once an assistant manager of a burger king in Rochester, NY. On, I think, Lyell Ave (or something like that) for anyone who knows the area. Way back then it wasn't the nicest part of town.

I was working the drive-thru window one night when this guy jumps the counter and presses a gun against my right temple. What kind of gun? A big, shiny handgun. Big. Cold. Against my temple.

He grabbed my collar and told me to open the safe. I figured I was dead. Our safe, you see, never opened on the first try. No kidding. It had a hinky dial that never quite worked very well - it always took 2 to 3 times to open. I figured I wouldn't be able to open the safe and he'd shoot me. I kind of remembered not being nervous, just resigned.

But, of course, as these things go, the safe did open on the first try, I gave him the money and he left.

I've never forgotten, though, how it feels to have a loaded gun pressed against your temple. It wasn't fun.

"Would you prefer it in the classroom during instructional time and/or during schoolwide assemblies and gatherings? "

Frankly, yes.

I love hearing comments from those outside the US, but it seems like many of them assume that every country is the same and every law or restriction will have the same effect universally.

I've never forgotten, though, how it feels to have a loaded gun pressed against your temple. It wasn't fun.

Doug, I had the same experience...gun to my head... working the night shift at a gift shop of a downtown Boston hotel. All I can say is that I certainly wasn't doing any heroic thinking or logical progression of calculations once that pistol was against my forehead. All I felt was like Pissing in my pants. Never want to experience it again.

Edited by butuki on 12/20/2012 00:32:49 MST.

I've had a gun pointed at me twice. The second time I swear I heard the bullet fly past my head. It's what made me turn my head and see the guy pointing the gun at me. What was wrong with me? I was the wrong race. Really, that was it. I ran. Fast.

I'm old now. I can't run fast anymore (but I can walk all day!). I don't believe the type of people who assaulted me with guns before will be deterred by new regulations. They will still have guns. They will still assault innocents.

I wish I was allowed to carry a gun to at least have a chance to defend myself against people like that. Or to protect my students.

But I can't. I live in California, and in my county, honest and innocent people can't get concealed carry permits unless they make major contributions to certain political types. Or so my LEO relatives tell me.

So if it happens a third time, I imagine my luck will run out and I'll get shot. Because I won't break the law and carry illegally.

And my LEO family and friends won't be there to protect me, just like they couldn't be there for the Newtown kids. The police can only get there well after the event. They can't predict them and arrive ahead of time.

When this happens, please toss my ashes off a ridge in the southern Sierra somewhere. Or better yet, leave my carcass somewhere for the California condors to feed on. But dig the lead bullet out first please.

"The extremists on both sides want their rules to apply to everyone"

What's sad is that what I presume to be the "extremist" gun control position in the US is still more permissive than most other first world countries.

I love hearing comments from those outside the US, but it seems like many of them assume that every country is the same and every law or restriction will have the same effect universally.

What's there to discuss about guns? Guns are guns. They do the same thing everywhere. Guns don't act according to cultural boundaries or respect one person over another. They're inanimate objects that cause the same effect in every country in the world.

And how do you know what the effects of very strict gun control would be if you've never had that kind of gun control? Every single post by Americans who've never experienced living in that kind of society, both pro and against, are purely conjecture. You simply can't know until you've tried it.

I believe that the effects might actually surprise a lot of people. That it wouldn't be nearly as bad as everyone is complaining about.