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Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Re: Re: Newtown on 12/23/2012 10:15:23 MST Print View

Ice-axe -- no point, just some facts.

Here is a nice video from the folks at the NSSF http://youtu.be/iqj23j7smVU

No blog entries on their site (http://www.nssf.org/) since 11 Dec 2012.

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
"Newtown" on 12/23/2012 19:15:25 MST Print View

Wow full circle. What a long strange trip its been.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
NRA, Clinton and Boxer agree on 12/23/2012 23:54:00 MST Print View

So Bill in 2000 and Wayne LaP now, want armed guards in schools, and Barbara wants the National Guard there.

Can you say Kent State?

Banning guns outright would set up a huge black market. 300 million guns already in everyones hands?

I think a news blackout about mass murderers would do better.

Edited by oware on 12/24/2012 00:01:38 MST.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re NRA, Clinton and Boxer Agree on 12/24/2012 07:21:03 MST Print View

The advantage of that idea is it could be implemented right now, or at least a lot quicker then anything else.

One of the better things about America is the number of community minded people who love to do volunteer work. Why not tap into that? I'm sure we could find lots of community minded police officers who would be happy to volunteer at local schools.

For the record a number of off duty cops already do this for churches and one actually stopped a mass shooter in a church.

If we got police officers in most schools for a while that would discourage copy cat attacks while we figure out a longer term solution.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re NRA, Clinton and Boxer Agree on 12/24/2012 13:13:35 MST Print View

How about returning military. Many are struggling to fine jobs and they would certainly be qualified for the position. Might even be an opportunity for some with partial physical disabilities.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Re NRA, Clinton and Boxer agree on 12/24/2012 13:42:02 MST Print View

Brad I would not be opposed to that idea. Or the National Guard. We have NG Military Police units and even Special Forces units in some states. A lot of these guys have way more expertise with weapons and handling stressful situations then the average police officer does.

Also we don't even have to freak kids out by having obviously armed guards all over. They could hang out in the office or teacher's lounge, the kids wouldn't even see them. Or they could carry their weapons concealed and help out as teachers aids etc. We already have a program to help soldiers get teaching jobs, why not use that?

The goal is not necessarily to stop every shooter but to make schools appear less inviting as a target. This is what metal detectors, Sky Marshals and armed pilots did for airlines. It's still theoretically possible to attack an airliner but its become such a tricky thing, that terrorist groups don't seem to think its a good use of their resources. Even guarding just half of schools on a rotating basis might help.

It might be depressing to think that we need armed guards at schools they don't infringe on anyone's liberties unlike other options. I see lots of positive things that could be done if people would look for solutions instead of demagogue their opponents and using emotional appeals rather then logic.

Edited by Cameron on 12/24/2012 13:44:13 MST.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re Re Re NRA, Clinton and Boxer agree on 12/24/2012 17:41:36 MST Print View

A few things here. Firstly, some of you are suggesting "armed" guards at every school. Who pays for this? I will take a California centric approach since I live here and my wife teaches HS here. The School Districts cannot afford to pay for this. Can our City, County or State Governments pay for it? First let's tackle the school districts. How can they pay for armed security when each year teachers get pink slips. Classroom size gets larger year by year, from the cuts, and you all complain about the state of education here? How can our local governments pay for it, when they are nearly bankrupt. Yes the Fed. Govt. could flip the bill, but for all of you out there that are right leaning in politics, how will the Feds. pay for it...aren't you tired of the ever increasing deficit? I also read where someone suggested arming faculty. Really? That is insane. Not only are most teachers not welcoming this idea, but I would not want my kids going to school with guns around. This is far more of societal issue that cannot be remedied with a quick fix it. This goes far more deep. Mental health issues, some lax gun laws too. Oh and having an armed guard at every campus cannot guarantee stopping someone. Nice to see the civility on this thread as opposed to other ones. Nice dialogue

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Welcome to the Future on 12/24/2012 19:06:12 MST Print View

I never thought I'd hear people asking to have the National Guard in schools.

We already pay good money for the privilege of having every single quantifiable aspect of our lives tracked by marketers, corporations, internet/phone companies, or the government...
I suppose increasingly militarizing our schools and public places is the next logical step.

Many of the early dystopian writers might have got one detail wrong; there will be no heavy-handed government forcing it on us. People will instead ask for it.

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
Newtown" on 12/24/2012 19:30:55 MST Print View

edit

Edited by book on 12/25/2012 11:23:37 MST.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Welcome to the future on 12/24/2012 19:50:30 MST Print View

Well I mentioned armed guards because that's the idea being tossed around and its better then some ideas I've heard.

Craig I'm in complete agreement that we are giving up too much privacy in the name of security.

Anything we do to try to make schools "safer" could potentially cause other problems. Remember when Nelson Mandela was on the "No Fly" list and the FBI investigated a terrorist suspect who turned out to be a 6 year old boy?

Problems with the reaction to 9/11 are the reason I'm nervous when they talk about gun control, violent video games and mental health because laws passed about any of these could be misused. I don't want more laws like the Patriot Act and I don't want the TSA in schools doing full body searches on kids. If we don't do that what else can we do?

If we insist on doing SOMETHING I'd prefer a few more police officers/guards be hired to keep an eye on schools. Are their potential problems? Most definitely but I'm less afraid of a police officer with appropriate training keeping watch over my school then an invasive government agency treating me like I'm a potential terrorist.

At any rate its Christmas Eve so I'm praying for the victims and wishing the rest of you a great time with your families.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Newtown" on 12/24/2012 22:00:45 MST Print View

Jeffery,

"You embrace the idea that ours will be a society filled with armed guards watching over schools, churches, theaters, every public gathering, including protests, public markets, anywhere where crazies and militants and yes nra tpes can kill and strike fear in the populace"

We already have armed police or security in many places in our society:
- Airports
- Subway stations
- Major shopping areas: malls, etc
- Office buildings. When is the last time you visited a business in a high rise. All require you go through security and they all have armed security
- Sporting events: Professional and college sports all have security and armed police at events
- Protest/public gatherings: all have police. Look at all the protest by union supporters, both parties, 1%, etc
- Schools in my county all have assigned resource officers (county deputies). The are not full time, but they are at their schools several times a day
- All middle and high school sporting events have armed police at the games.
- Most theaters have some sort of security
- Most federal and state buildings
- etc

Don't understand your comment. We are already at this point.

"crazies and militants and yes nra tpes can kill and strike fear in the populace"

Can you name an event where the NRA apes(assuming that is what you meant) struck fear in the populace. I don't recall any events.

"because if the only answer to gun violence is "volunteers" or low paid militias with even greater gun-power"

I never said volunteers or low paid militias. How do you derive this from my comment. I'm assuming the resources would come from the local police department like in my county. The resource officers would be dedicated as opposed to rotating. The comment on military would be qualified candidates to fulfill some of the positions. These resources in my county's schools serve a great purpose and build great relationships with the students. These relationships are what get students to feel confident in sharing about problems in the school (drugs, potential violence, etc). We have seen it first thing in our schools.

"I know the system isn't perfect but you're suggesting anarchy"

Please explain how using a county deputy in a school is anarchy. That is really far reaching.

"Wouldn't it be cheaper and more effective to simply stop cutting police budgets? suddenly, you want to add thousands of new "enforcement officers??" at what cost? Geeze, I'm sure that nra types are just dying to pay more taxes to pay for this"

Well yes we would have to spend money. Yes more tax dollars for a worthy cause in my opinion. Since when are liberals objecting to spending more money for government spending? As we say in the south "that dog wont hunt". Never thought I would see the liberal side use spending money as a defense. I'm for pushing the conservatives to spend the tax dollars.

"Furthermore, who the hell are the"volunteers" that we're going to turn our security over to?"

Read my post again. I never mentioned volunteers, so I'm not sure who the hell the volunteers are. In my area a lot of the local police will work the sporting events, etc for extra money.

"Brad, I haven't seen anything in your posts to suggest that you would accept reasonable gun control measures of the type that are realized throughout the western world to good effect."

What do you have in mind? I'm on the record for more background checks, enforcing the laws on the books. If you are proposing banning all guns, then yes I'm against it. I'm also on the record for not really caring about assault rifles, but I have a right to a handguns, shotguns or rifle for protection or hunting.

"But by implication you jump at the chance to turn security over to an unnamed and untrained and unvetted group of individuals who you'd arm big time."

I think military personnel are named, well trained and vetted group. Did I say "armed big time". What lead you to this comment? I merely said they were good candidates. I would assume they are armed like our resource officers or like a regular county deputy. We don't need all types of fire power at the school, but a consistent presence of a police officer is a great deterrent. We use if very effectively throughout society. Kinda like putting a security system in your house and then putting the sign at the front door. Most criminals will move on to another house.

"Just because LaPierre says it's a good idea doesn't make it so."

No the record that I'm not a NRA member and never will be. Also a very small portion of actual gun owners are NRA members, but most gun control advocates just ignore that fact.

"If strong laws are passed making it difficult for every john doe to get an assault weapon or clips, will you respect those laws, even though you disagree with them, or do you think that your buddies will come out shooting?"

I think this comment is just disrespectful. I'm a law abiding citizens and always will be. Some of these so called "buddies" are my friends who are law abiding citizens. What give you the right to make a degrading comment like that?

Do you realize that the vast majority of gun owners are NOT NRA members? Do you realize that over 75% of the NRA members support strong gun control? No you don't know these things because you only listen to the liberal media.

Jeffrey you and I have had good conversations on this thread, but I'm disappointed in your response. You took a very short comment I made and made many assumption about my stance.

All is well. It's Christmas Eve and all is good. Merry Christmas Jeffrey.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Newtown on 12/24/2012 22:43:00 MST Print View

I have been off the Internet grid since this happened. And like the response across the nation, this thread is similar. Lots of opinions and lots of solutions as a "call to action."

I recommend that everyone go over to Dave Chenault's blog and carefully read his Newtown for a new century

Dave has 3 themes:

#1. Gun control is not the answer.
He also makes a very important point here; " the second amendment has nothing to do with hunting, or with skeet shooting. Nothing whatsoever. It exists so that everyday citizens may and will participate in the ordering of our republic; be it widespread resistance to a foriegn [sic] invasion, shooting a robber at your doorstep, or (yes) resisting the facistic [sic] usurpation of liberty by our own government."

#2. Mental health care is not the answer.
Especially if the person does not want help -- and if the person is an adult, health care cannot be forced. The 5th Amendment.

#3. Nothing is the answer; everything is the answer.
He writes, "Children and adults both spend too many hours looking at dark screens witnessing and playing at horrific violence." But we cannot stop the news or the violent play. 1st Amendment.

My take is that in America our society is falling apart; because the the family unit -- the basic unit of society is falling apart. Parents who treat children as an inconvenience. Parents who worry more about their social standing, friends, hobbies, income, nice houses, boats, cars, SUVs, RVs, etc. Seems too many children are at the bottom of the family priorities... encouraged to get lost and alienated with electronic baby sitters. We cannot fix this. Laws and regulations cannot fix this. Only a society that values the role of parenting and sees the primary function of parents to "parent" can fix this. Parents who are focused first and foremost on nurturing, raising, and the character-building of their kids. I am not an expert. But I see more and more problem kids, and I see many parents who don't have the time or inclination to be involved with these kids. They don't want the responsibility -- let the schools, the church, the government, or somebody else do it. And I realize that even the perfect parent (whatever that is) will not guarantee their child will not have problems.


------------------------

You may have noticed that I referenced several Amendments to the US Constitution that are part of our Bill of Rights. This is because many people don't understand their importance. Many of our forefathers did not want a Bill of Rights, because it was already laid out in the Constitution. The Bill of Rights advocates insisted; because they want to make sure that no one misunderstood the importance and necessity of the rights of the individual. They were afraid and suspicious of any government.

And just to clarify; I don't own any firearms. I have never hunted. I was trained in the use of many weapons when I served in the military, so I am not afraid of firearms.

------------------------

Anyway, some food for thought. Luckily most of us will have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year. The families of 28 people will not.

David Adair
(DavidAdair) - M

Locale: West Dakota
Re: Newtown" on 12/24/2012 22:52:32 MST Print View

Jeffery said "Finally, I have a hard time deciding whether the nra types are just paranoid, because of their wild ideas about the government enslaving them; or nihilists, because they don't care that their paranoid fantasies have resulted in the death of children and thousands of adults; or anarchists, because in the end they see themselves shooting it out with every one else in a grisly blood bath. Or all of the above."

I am proud to be an NRA member. You do not know me but have chosen to insult me. I do not expect to be able to enlighten you in any way but I will leave you with the following words of George Washington:

“Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American peoples’ liberty teeth and keystone under independence... From the hour the pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable...The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that is good.”

In my opinion, letting the actions of madmen dictate limits on people's constitutional rights seems ill advised.

Hey and...this is not network news so let's try to keep the discussion civil:)

Merry Christmas and blessings to all!

Buck Nelson
(Colter) - MLife

Locale: Alaska
Just for the record on 12/25/2012 06:35:35 MST Print View

That George Washington quote is made up.
http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Newtown on 12/25/2012 07:41:44 MST Print View

So in essence, the US culture is corrupt and supported by an outdated Constitution. Is this the "take away" Nick?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Newtown on 12/25/2012 09:48:41 MST Print View

"So in essence, the US culture is corrupt and supported by an outdated Constitution. Is this the "take away" Nick?"

Absolutely not! It is timeless. But collectivism/socialism is the virus that ails us. We have lost our way and misplaced our moral compasses. The loss of individual rights and the lack of personal responsibility is the corruption.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Newtown on 12/25/2012 10:04:54 MST Print View

"But collectivism/socialism is the virus that ails us. We have lost our way and misplaced our moral compasses. The loss of individual rights and the lack of personal responsibility is the corruption."

The virus that ails us is that the big corporations and super rich have infilterated the government.

For example, the NRA is mostly paid for by gun manufacturers and their only concern is making more money.

They love this. "Obama is going to take away your guns!". There are record gun sales since Obama's first election.

I don't think any of the gun ban provision will have much of an effect on gun violence. I have enjoyed shooting guns so I can see how people like them. If someone wants to own guns, fine, you will have a little higher risk of hurting yourself or someone else but that's your choice.

Maybe we should quit some of the hyper-partisanship between two groups, such as conservatives and liberals. If there is a lot of public hate talk and saying that if the other gets into power it will be the end of the country, maybe that could push a few mentally ill people over the edge and they then kill others.

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
re: Newtown on 12/25/2012 10:06:16 MST Print View

Nick says: "...collectivism/socialism is the virus that ails us. We have lost our way and misplaced our moral compasses. The loss of individual rights and the lack of personal responsibility is the corruption."

Hear, hear!

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
re: Newtown on 12/25/2012 10:07:30 MST Print View

Double bump, sorry!

Edited by grampa on 12/25/2012 10:08:26 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Newtown on 12/25/2012 10:25:44 MST Print View

"The virus that ails us is that the big corporations and super rich have infilterated the government."

Jerry,

I agree that this part of the problem. And collectivism/socialism is the vehicle that allows this to happen. Our forefathers envisioned a minimal government where this could not happen. But starting with the likes of Alexander Hamilton, they started replacing freedom/capitalism with English mercantilism.

Posted with my iPhone, so grammar and spelling may not be the best.