There are enough of us, we ought to get together for a trip. Rough ideas follow.

-Sometime in March. Still winter, enough lead time for good planning and thus good participation.

-Centralized location. We've got Flathead folks, Missoula folks, Bozeman, and at least one (Mike M) from further east. I was thinking the southern Scapegoat off Highway 2.

-Actual backcountry trip. Ideally modest mileage goals with perhaps multiple routes between camps to suit different ambitions. Plenty of BSin' and gear talkin' time around the fire at night. Concrete destination, daily distance, and technical requirements (skis, snowshoes, ice axes?) to be decided here. Length as well. Was thinking 2-3 nights out. Again, perhaps with options for those with less time.

-Primary objective would be to put names to faces and enjoy each others company. Secondary would be dissemination of knowledge amongst members of varying experience levels.

Anyone who is interested and has opinions, please post.

-----------------------------------------------------------
1/4/13 EDIT:

Date is March 23-25; a ~26 mile point to point in the southern Scapegoat a bit east of Ovando. Details discussed below. This route will interest beginning and above snow campers with a moderate or greater degree of fitness and summer camping experience.

Edited by DaveC on 01/04/2013 09:10:22 MST.

Well I'm definitely not in Montana but that's about the time of my spring break so I'll keep it in mind and see if I'm able to come as it gets closer.

Monday bump.

One idea for a route, if we can run a short car shuttle, is to start at the North Fork Blackfoot TH and end at Monture. Going up the North Fork, then the Dry Fork, then Canyon Creek and down Falls Creek is an excellent route. Depending on the group, going over the Dry Fork divide and over Limestone Pass would be even better, but the west side of Limestone has a brief stretch of (mild) mandatory avy terrain.

Dave- I'd definitely be interested in a 2 or 3 day trip. Would prefer a trip sans ice axe/crampons if possible :) I haven't spent any time in the Scapegoat so that would definitely be a nice choice for me.

Mike

Hi Dave,

I just checked flights and its just over 500$ for flights for me (depending on dates) I could come along if someone could help with transport from Bozeman and once its not on the 17th March (St. Patricks Day)

Cheers,

Stephen

Edited by stephenm on 12/17/2012 13:02:28 MST.

The first option I outlined is non-technical, and would be a fine (not too hard, not too easy) 3 day route. Snowshoes would work fine, as would most XC skis. Skiers would need kicker skins at minimum.

Anyone who lives here knows how bloody expensive it is to fly in and out. Depending on who commits we could probably arrange to pick folks up from Bozeman or Missoula (the two most likely airports). My primary intention is selfish, ie to be able to hike with guys like Mike whom I've never met, and thus the vacation-time friendly long weekend format.

I'm little shaky on skis, feel more comfy on shoes but would be willing to give it a go if that's what folks would rather do

if I go I'd be driving through Bozeman, so I could pick up any folks flying in there :)

Just saw this, and I'm definitely interested. My ski skills are still novice, but I love the idea. Shoes are my preference. Then again, I do plan to practice this winter.

Depending on dates I might be able to take off work for a bit too.

Cheers Mike :-)

Once we know dates I can see I can get a few days off work and will come if the flights are not too crazy expensive.

sounds good :) March is usually when cabin fever hits me the hardest, this would be a fun reprieve

I hear you Mike, If I manage to go it will be my 6th Bpl Meetup in a year :-)

^ that sounds like a potential record to me :)

I am wrong Mike, it will be the 8th as have 2 local trips in January and February that Bplease folk are attending.

:-)

Those who are interested, speak out on preferred dates and duration. Early birds get the worm.

This far out my March is very flexible.

How about the weekend of the 21st??


I just looked at flights flying out from and the cheaper ones (about $550 oppose to $900) can get me in to Bozeman at 11.30pm and leave at 8.55pm on the return leg.

I can do either a 2 or 3 night trip.

21st is good for me, pretty flexible though- the later half would probably be better than the first half given a choice

3 day, 2 night would be good for me as I'd have nearly a day drive there (and back)- Miles City to Lincoln is ~ 500 miles/8 hours

Great idea. Unfortunately I will be just beginning the AT in March. Sound like a great trip though. The Scapegoat is a nice area.

I could possibly do the weekend of the 21st (that's a Thursday, Friday is the 22nd). However, it's a bit of a stretch for me since that's the end of our grading quarter. Either the weekend before or the one after would be much better for me.

I would also do much better with a Saturday-Monday hike rather than Friday-Sunday. With my school schedule, getting Fridays off is doable but takes some work.

March 21-24 range is good for me as it now stands. I might be able to drive someone from Bozeman, and flights to Bozeman tend to be less expensive than Missoula or Kalispell.

I can do Friday-Sunday or Saturday-Monday, I would need to stay over whichever night as the flight gets in at 11.30pm

Once we figure out what happening I can book flights.

Dave- if I've mapped the route out correctly, looks like 26-ish miles or so- that should make for a pretty doable 3 day, 2 night trip on shoes or skis, the other route you mention looks to be ~ 35 miles

both look good :)

Mike

Edited by mtwarden on 12/20/2012 19:35:25 MST.

Could be a fast or slow 26ish miles depending on conditions. If the former, plenty of cool stuff to check out with spare hours.

Looks like March 23 (saturday) through March 25 (monday) is the developing consensus. This works for me.

I am in Europe for another 10 days but if the flights have not jumped too much in price I am still up for it.

I'm in. Sounds like a good time. Whatever date or duration works for me. Most likely will be on snowshoes. The consolation is that I just purchased a new pair of Northernlite Tundra snowshoes. They're nice, like wearing a feather...a feather I tell ya.

looks like my wife might join up as well- definitely snowshoes; I got beat up bad last week in the Absaroka's on skis-I've got a long way to go to becoming proficient on skis!

Glad to get a firmer date. I will pencil it in and try to firm things up rather soon.

Thanks for kicking this off.

I'll most likely be on snowshoes too. My skiing is progressing, but I don't see my skills or equipment being up to snuff by then.

Edited by GlacierRambler on 12/29/2012 23:50:15 MST.

I'm actually interested, but I'm in Denver. I think I would be more comfortable committing if there were some other women planning on going. Also, I see it is about a 14 hour drive from Denver (not accounting for winter conditions). Anyone familiar with road conditions in the area to give advice?

Plane ticket is about $380 from here. Hmm...I've never been to Montana and I would love to see it.

Edited by flutingaround on 12/30/2012 11:16:02 MST.

Raquel,

Stuart D mentioned to me that he may attend and that flying would be a far safer option.

Oh that's cool because I already know him. I'll chat with him about it and make my decision.

And I decided to pass on this one due to budget. I have plenty of snow and mountains right here to play in. Now if I could only find some UL packers who want to winter backpack in this area!

I have been out to your neck of the woods twice this year on trips and I absolutely love it.

Folks,

I have never snow shoes any great distance or with nay weight on my back so would need to get out for a local overnight to see what I can do.

Cheers,

Stephen

Stephen- the nice thing about snowshoes is if you can walk, you can snowshoe :) There is a little getting used to them, but not an involved skill set like skiing

I used trekking poles (w/ snow baskets) when I snowshoe and find the poles very useful to help maneuver

Cheers Mike, I have found it easy enough going with a very light pack but will have to try it out with a winter load.

definitely worth a trip to give it a go :)

Definitely, I have a local trip in a few weeks where I could test them out.

Let's consider those dates firm, and plan accordingly.

For the length, IMO this route is worth a fair bit of travel. It is also suitable for snow-travel novices with a reasonable amount of fitness and summer backpacking experience. Even if you've not snowshoed or winter camped before, ask for advice and then come anyway.

Dave- sounds good :) might be worthwhile editing your first post w/ the firm dates

I know March is a tricky month, but ballpark guesses on temps? highs 40-ish, lows 20-ish??

thanks for getting this going

Mike

Good idea Mike; original post edited.

Conditions are obviously difficult to estimate, but I'd say that lows in the upper teens and highs around 40-45 is a decent guess. It could be warmer, which wouldn't be ideal because the snow would turn to glop.

My assumption is we'll camp up the Dry Fork Valley the first night, and up near or at the pass into Monture the second. Depending on conditions there might be some dry ground in the Dry Fork, while the pass will surely have 8+ feet of snow by then.

Dave- could you expound on the "reasonable amount of fitness " thing. "Reasonable" has a huge range depending on who is making the judgement. A clarification might help some of the fence sitters.

I'm interested in going but need to get a hall pas. I'm scheduled to teach an Igloo building class the weekend before this trip.

If I go, I will be driving from Seattle- so for those who are flying in, it might be cheaper to fly into Seattle and carpool with me (if I go). Maybe something to look into.

It is about a 7 to 8 hour drive and I'd be leaving on the 22nd and spending the night somewhere close to the trail head. Don't know if I would come back on the 25th or 26th.

Edited by bestbuilder on 01/04/2013 15:24:17 MST.

Dave- we should be good to go w/ our Heliums (and maybe a few extra bits of clothing if need be) Just ordered some snowshoes for the wife-ouch!

I'll let Dave define reasonable fitness, but we should be covering roughly 9-10 miles/day w/ some decent elevation gains on snowshoes, so not a walk in the park, but not like running an ultra- somewhere in between :)

Mike

>Dave- could you expound on the "reasonable amount of fitness " thing. "Reasonable" has a huge >range depending on who is making the judgement. A clarification might help some of the fence >sitters.

Well, Being old and slow, I was thinking of giving myself a head start by starting a day or so early. That would increase the chances of getting to meet up with every one at either camp one or two. It's hard to predict what kind of conditions we'll encounter in March. No matter, If going forward exceeds my ability (or desire) I can always retreat back out the way I came up.

hmm....the downside is I could wind up breaking trail for the athletic types. Maybe it makes more sense to let em run on ahead?

Don't know my Montana geography or if anyone could help me with a ride...But I'm interested...

What are the chances of me being picked up Friday in Missoula and dropped back off on Tuesday?
Flights are reasonable; $250 round trip if I book something now. Could get in at ~1PM Friday with a return flight at ~1PM on Tuesday.
Of course this would likely mean staying over or camping somewhere else for the first and last nights also...

Doable or getting too complicated?

Craig- I'll be starting (and finishing) from Missoula (my wife is living in Missoula for awhile taking care of her Mom)- I'll have room in my truck for you. We'd probably leave early Saturday morning from Missoula (depending on what time we decide to start)- it's ~ 80 miles. Would head back to Missoula when we finish up on Monday. They are in a two room apartment, so unfortunately no room there to crash Friday and Monday night, but other than that doable :)

Mike

Dammit I wanna go. Seems like fun!

Can't make it due to lack of available vaca. :( I could drive... it'd be fun. Dammit!!

Awesome Mike, thanks for the offer.
More than happy to give gas $$$ to anyone I ride with.

I'm on a really tight budget and airfare/expenses alone are stretching it, let alone having to get a hotel room for two nights. Let me see what I can find online...

If anyone has cheap lodging suggestions (including camping out anywhere) for Friday night and Monday night, let me know.

If I can make the $$$ reasonable, this sounds like a good excuse to get out to Montana.

I'm old but fairly fit. I've never showshoed or skiied, but I do own snowshoes. I have camped in winter.

Can I come?

He's just tryin to get y'all to carry his stuff.

:)

>I'm old but fairly fit. I've never showshoed or skiied, but I do own snowshoes. I have >camped in winter.

>Can I come?

Is this supposed to be a riddle or something?
Of course you can come. and bring Craig with ya.

Edited by DavidAdair on 01/04/2013 21:48:05 MST.

There is camping at both trailheads, and at several places on the way between Ovando and Missoula. The later provide access to the Blackfoot which should be fairly ice free, and has many hard to catch trout.

I could easily pick folks up in Missoula Friday evening. We could get some beers and good food and go camp somewhere.

As for the fitness question: mileage will be reasonable, and the hiking and trail breaking could be quite easy or pretty hard. We'll have people to share the load, but in the worst case scenario of slushy snow that doesn't help a huge amount. In short, if you regularly do 15 miles miles a day on summer backpacks in the mountains this should be quite doable, though it might feel hard if conditions are difficult. Days will be longish by late March, so plenty of time to get it done.

This is looking more and more doable for me in terms of the dates.

I was checking out the route on my USFS map, and I will definitely be picking up the Cairn Carto map today.

Looking good. Thanks again for starting this Dave.

Food, beer, and camping the night before in Missoula sounds good.

I'm still looking at my spring vacation schedule and family budget...Should be able to commit (or not) within the next few days.

How hard is it to fly with a full pack? Never gotten on a plane to go backpacking before...
I'm assuming I'll load it, strap snowshoes, etc. to the outside, and then pack the entire thing in an xlarge duffel and check it....

Craig- that's what I did when my wife and I flew to NM- instead a duffel we used those eagle creek pack covers and bought TSA locks for them- they are approved by TSA as they can open them if need be, but keeps baggage handlers and the like out

Mike

Craig, I recommend carrying your gear on the plane, as opposed to checking it. Twice my friends have flown out here to hike with their gear ending up in Seattle. It sucks going to bed knowing that your hitting the road at 6am and one of you doesn't have his stuff. Luckily Seattle is close and it came in the early AM both times. You never know, though

a lot of packs won't make it as carry on, snowshoes w/ crampon style bindings might be frowned on, as well astrekking poles and a whole lot of other things that are TSA non-friendly

Craig, alternately you could mail me your non-carry on gear in advance.

Folks,

I won't know for another few weeks if I can come along as things are up in a heap at work at the moment
I was also hoping to get out for a practice snow shoe overnighter next weekend but all the snow within 3 hours of here has melted, damn :-(

Cheers,

Stephen

I'm still thinking about this, though not sure I can afford it yet. Airfare has come down a bit, so we'll see....

Craig- I'm seeing prices going up (both from Billings and Missoula to LAX or Ontario) for Joshua Tree- any secrets I'm not aware of?

Looks like Allegiant will be servicing LA, they're cheap, but they don't start that route till June :(

thanks

Mike

Can't make this. Too fat, too out of shape.

Too bad, sounds like a great time.

This trip sounds like a lot of fun and great opportunity to brush up on/improve winter camping skills.

I've been watching the thread with interest from the beginning but hadn't really given much thought to trying to attend until recently.

It's still very much up in the air for me, maybe 50-50 at this point, but I've looking at airfare, checking my co-workers vacation schedules, etc. I'm out by Craig W, so I'd be coming from LAX and would be reliant upon others for a ride to/from the airport in Missoula or Bozeman or peraps teaming up with others for a rental or something like that.

Anyway, just wanted to throw it out there that this is on my radar (assuming there's still room for me).

-Nick

Nick--I'm probably 60-40 toward coming, and I'll be driving in from Kalispell. I should have room so long as I can make it.

Looks like I'm out on this one- too much going on, too little time and not enough leg power this early in the season (or late as the case may be).
I really wanted to do this one!
Hey, maybe I will go as far as the first fishing hole and stay there for the whole trip.

I can take a few people from either Bozeman, where I live, or Missoula, which can be along the drive to the trailhead.

Dave, I'm far more comfortable on tele skis than Nordic, but they're heavy and would probably slow me down to the point of not being able to keep up. (Like Doug, I'm old and fat.) Do you plan on more than one group to take account of differing fitness levels?

Richard

The picture will become clear once we get closer to the date and people commit, but I'm assuming we'll have fixed campsites and multiple groups going their own pace, then meeting up in the evening. In short, bring the oversnow gear you're most comfortable with and don't worry about it.

I don't even own snowshoes at the moment, and will decide on ski/boot combo the week of when conditions become clear. Might even be some dry dirt walking in the Dry Fork Valley.

Edited by DaveC on 02/06/2013 09:25:27 MST.

Guys,

I am going to have to pass on this because of work.

Have a great trip.

Stephen

sorry to hear that- next time! :)

Cheers Mike,

I will try my best for the next trip.

I wish it was one day later...It really looks bad calling a substitute teacher on the Friday before a two week break begins. With further thought, I just can't take that day off without catching some flak.

I mapped the route out on Hillmap.com (linked here). It looks like it will be right at 26.6 miles give or take.

Double-check me--did I get it right?

Edited by GlacierRambler on 02/23/2013 13:00:17 MST.

that sounds about right, I think I came up w/ 25.8, so definitely right in the ballpark :)

Craig you should just come out do the Bob Open in May. I'll take the week off and we can do the grand scenic tour.

Clayton, that map is dead on. Nice.

My tentative plan is to have everyone meet at the Monture TH Saturday AM. Figure out and run the shuttle (i.e. leave one car there) and get hiking. Probably camp at the confluence of the main North Fork and Dry Fork. Should be dry dirt, flowing water, and the side trip to North Fork Falls is worthwhile. Second camp should be at Canyon or Camp Lakes, which I'm sure will be frozen. Count on melting snow that night, but most of that forest burned in the last decade so there should be wood to harvest for fire. Early start for the journey over the pass and back to Monture. The only avy exposure will be crossing a few chutes on the far side of Camp Pass. We won't be in a trigger zone, and it would have to be a huge event to run that far, so being on the move in the cool of the morning almost guarantees zero exposure.

Final head count?

So, according to Cairn topographic map, it will be about 10.5 miles to the first camp with 600-700 feet of elevation gain over those miles. From there, it looks like it's another 5 miles to Canyon Lake and 2 miles beyond that to Camp Lake. Camp Lake seems like the best choice, especially as it's about 500 feet higher than Canyon Lake, giving a better start in the morning up to Camp Pass.

At this point I'm about 70-30 toward going. I've got some work things to resolve (the Quarter ends that Friday, and my kids will have essays due around that time). That seems to be the main thing holding me up, but I'm hopeful I can work it out.

What condition will the roads to the trailhead be in? If I drive, it will be in a Toyota Prius, and while I've gotten it into a lot of places you'd never expect a Prius, it's not a 4x4.

barring an emergency my wife (Jan) and I will be going

I've got a 4 door Tacoma that can hold 4 comfortably, 5 in a pinch

The confluence is only 6-7 miles in, so the first day will be shorter.

What are you guys planning on doing for footwear choices?

I have a pair of Inov-8 Trailroc 255s that I quite love, but they have a lot of mesh, which easily gets soaked and then soaks my NRS Hydroskin socks. They're great until I stop moving, then my feet get cold fast. Same for the morning--I have to pack up and start moving before I can feel my toes again. I took them out last night and was able to dry them by the fire, but I've been considering picking up a pair of GTX socks for colder conditions.

Any ideas?

I have had good experiences with Rocky Goretex socks.

and I had a very bad experience with Hydroskins in the snow.

Are hydroskins breathable?

Hydroskins are fairly breathable, but like I said, they stop insulating when you stop moving. I don't mind wet feet, but I'm trying to avoid being so cold. It took about 30-40 minutes of hiking this morning to restore feeling in my right toes, and that was putting the socks on dry in the morning. They just didn't warm up while breaking camp (and they got soaked pretty quickly once the frozen water from my shoes warmed up enough to melt into them).

I have never had wet feet using the Rocky socks, they seal well around the ankle.

I'm not much for Goretex footwear, but I plan on wearing Goretex mids (Montrail Badrocks) w/ a really thin merino liner and a heavier weight merino sock

I'll have down booties/overboots for camp, the overboots are sized that in a pinch I can wear them over my mids as well as an additional layer

I think that even if your feet get wet, the gore tex socks will keep them warmer than hydroskins in the snow. Hydroskins are best for wading around water.

I'll almost certainly be wearing leather 3 pin ski boots.

Waterproof socks would probably keep your feet a bit warmer than Hydroskins while snowshoeing, though the problem with the spring conditions we had this weekend is that your shoes will still get soaked. You'll have dry them each night or keep them from freezing overnight, and even so wet shoes will suck heat from your feet. Actual waterproof shoes are probably a bit warmer, all things being equal.

a week out (subject to change, especially in March!) looks pretty good- forecast for Lincoln 23rd 51/28- mostly cloudy, 24th 54/30-passing shower, 25th 54/31-morning flurry; elevation at LIncoln is 4500'

Based on the warm and sunny weather we've had recently I'm fairly sure we'll see some dry dirt in the first 10 miles.

Dave- what time and where do you want to meet up on Saturday? Is everyone still staying in Missoula Friday night, there is a Starbucks on the north side of I-90 on Reserve St if we wanted to grab a cup before hitting the road?????

Also looks like most of the state is expecting some snow the next couple of days, so might be less of that brown stuff :)

Mike

Great tips about dealing with cold wet conditions, hope to see some lessons learned afterward. Looks like a great group and a fun trip, have a blast!!

According to the radar, our route is getting some snow right now.

I officially have the day off now, and so long as I can get all these papers graded before Thursday, I'm in. I may have a friend coming for one night too. I should know in the next day or two if he's in.

Getting excited. I need this trip. Now, I need to go work out and grade a lot of papers.

Adan- hopefully lessons not as hard earned as our last adventure, I've got the boss with me this time! :)

Clayton- hope you can make it, should be a dandy!

Mike

Dave- you don't have email turned on, so hopefully you'll post here soon :)

Mike

Have great trips guys, I hope I can make the next one out west.

I'm saying 930 at the Monture TH. Forecast actually looks wintery!

that'll work :)

I very much regret that I must withdraw. I have a business matter that I thought would be resolved by now that will require constant attention - mostly waiting - over the weekend. This is an important personal matter that has consumed me for over a year and I cannot defer these discussions.

I look forward to the next trip and wish you a great trek. Looks like you'll get some snow.

Richard

sadly after a 1000 mile drive yesterday, I'm back in Miles City- was in Missoula for just over an hour before I got an urgent call, got home at 2:30 AM :(

I hope you guys still do the trip, have fun and be safe!


Mike

At this point everyone who's expressed interest is out or on the fence. If there are any lurkers out there, speak now or you might find an empty TH.

Yep, I seem to have all sorts of things conspiring against my getting to go as well. So no problem, I am out.