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Paul Wagner
(balzaccom) - F

Locale: Wine Country
FWIW on 12/02/2012 10:14:33 MST Print View

Your comments encouraged me to stop in the WB forums to see what was going on.

Ho hum. There are plenty of people on all sides, and enough curmudgeons to keep everyone entertained. Not sure it's where I am going to spend most of my time. And nobody is going to convince any of the curmudgeons that there is another side to the story.

But there are a ton of message boards on the internet, and I only participate in a few. Pick the ones you like, ignore the rest. Life is too short.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife is Anti-ultralight? on 12/02/2012 18:36:41 MST Print View

I think Paul has it right. I drop in on WB once in a while to see what's going on. There are some "ultra heavy" advocates and quite a few lightweight/ultralite advocates. However, I don't have much interest in the AT, which is their main focus. I agree that the curmudgeons on that or any other forum, or anywhere in the world for that matter, are not going to change their minds. (My mind is made up so don't annoy me with the facts.) I am a bit of a curmudgeon, or at least Luddite, myself!

If someone wants to go lighter, I'll help them any way I can. If they don't, that's their problem, not mine. I may think a few scoffing thoughts, but I smile, say "Hi" and chat about the weather. However, when I do help, I increasingly describe my own experience (for what it's worth) rather than making blanket recommendations. Every individual is different, for which fact I shout hallelujah!

Paul Wagner
(balzaccom) - F

Locale: Wine Country
Common sense on 12/02/2012 18:54:51 MST Print View

You sound entirely too rational, Mary. That's no fun. Now if you took a wildly outrageous position, and then defended it against all odds and all comers...we could have a flame war here.

Your approach just leads to helpful and rational discussion. sigh.


Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest is Anti-ultralight on 12/02/2012 19:11:44 MST Print View

WB is pretty bad, even in the ultralight forum.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Oh the places we go... on 12/02/2012 19:31:47 MST Print View's just one base camper who extrapolates his limited experience (granted, he does know winter camping very well) to every type of backpacking. He has a small amount of vocal followers.

Most people try to get lighter, enjoy their time in the outdoors and carry on.

Then there are stubborn people like me who still try to teach the pig to sing. :D

If you look at on-line forums as entertainment in part, and don't take it seriously, it is just a way to kill some time.

Then you go outside and realize it ain't that important.

This is:

Cedar Wash

Edited by PaulMags on 12/02/2012 19:32:23 MST.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: is Anti-ultralight? on 12/02/2012 19:37:24 MST Print View

Mary, there is having an opinion and then there is invading threads and sub-forums you just don't belong in. ie the 70lb pack guy spouting off in the UL sub-forum.. it only disrupts where people are trying to discuss their own thing, where they are supposed to. Or people telling folks asking about speed hiking to slow down and "have fun"
It is fine to have an personal style but impeding other peoples ability to learn a different style isn't right.

It is also funny to do gear list reviews over there... people say "what do you think" and then refuse to even consider changing things you bring up. And then when you tell them well you asked and you get cheerleaders saying "the list looks good! 29lb baseweight is fine!"

the fact that BPL was basically shut down and the UL forum over there didn't see a blip should say something.

edit: Mags you don't think T-W's rants and ramblings are disruptive when he puts them in threads where it has no place?

Edited by JakeDatc on 12/02/2012 19:41:55 MST.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
just let it go my friend on 12/02/2012 20:23:06 MST Print View

Sure it is out of place..but does it really matter? His insights are something most people ignore and/or find laughable. After a while, he'll take his ball, go out into the woods on yet another trip he'll make out to be WILDERNESS (He brings a -10F bag and 4 season tent in thge summer. HE claims he wants to be prepared for blizzards. During the summer in TN??? OK. Maybe if this climate change thing goes really wrong. Even new comers won't fall for that) and we'll hear bupkis from him for three weeks. Just treat it as entertainment.

But, that's a different website. Different neighborhood. Kinda like RI transplants in CO discussing their favorite Dunkin Donuts back home. ;)

Time to move on..

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: just let it go my friend on 12/02/2012 20:40:42 MST Print View

I was lucky enough to find BPL as a source of learning to lighten my pack.. I guess i feel bad for folks who go to WB for similar (or many other topics that get derailed) and are given such poor information. having your question get bogged down with nonsense is not entertaining i'm sure.

I have 3 dunkins in 10mi before i hit the highway ;)

Donald Howard
(DonH) - F
Whiteblaze on 12/03/2012 05:52:15 MST Print View

Yea, I don't like the heavy hand of one of the mods there but it's their sandbox, I just play in it.

Jake, I remember your comments on the thru-hike in 60 days thread. In fact I posted a question on that thread and you took it in a way I didn't intend and made some not so nice comments about it.

Whiteblaze doesn't discourage UL, it's just that everyone has their opinions and some of them don't agree with yours.

Ever think maybe the problem isn't everybody else?

By the way, I run a 12 lb. base weight for spring and fall, less for summer.

Edited by DonH on 12/03/2012 06:00:02 MST.

Steven McAllister
(brooklynkayak) - MLife

Locale: Atlantic North East
WhiteBlaze on 12/03/2012 07:04:30 MST Print View

I found BPL through the UL forum on WB.

I do tend to avoid whiteblaze because the combination of newbies and quick to reply curmudgeons are often frustrating.

The common theme that comes up one the UL forum is when a newbie ask questions about UL gear and end up with a flood of follow up posts about why the person should avoid UL gear.

You might get a few good responses, but the newbie is going to be more likely to listen to the crowd and not what appears to be the few people on the fringe.

I remember one thread discussing trekking poles where the same loud mouths ranted about why trekking poles are the worst thing in the world. They'll make you a cripple and how they damage the trails. Trail maintainers keep having to reroute trails because of trekking poles and other nonsense.

And of course we all love the guy(s) that always tells everyone to get the 6 lb Hilleberg tent and they will never regret it. I even almost fell for that one by listening because of these posts:-(

Or a common theme about - where I hike you have to have all this heavy gear because our conditions are SO extreme. That UL crap won't cut it where I hike. You have to carry a good hatched, a giant heavy pack, a 4 season dome freestanding tent, ... and of course wear high topped waterproof hiking boots, ....

It seems like the best posts are the ones that advise people to go to BPL for UL advice instead of listening to the heavy packers rant. I know that was the best advice I have received from the WB forums.

Edited by brooklynkayak on 12/03/2012 08:39:10 MST.

Greg Pehrson
(GregPehrson) - MLife

Locale: playa del caballo blanco
dunk it on 12/03/2012 08:13:35 MST Print View

-For the sassy staff and exchanges in Portuguese: Allens Ave Dunkin Donuts (DD) in South Providence. Highly inconsistent coffee though.
-For 24 hour convenience and late nights of driving: Exit 30 DD.
-For waiting for a ride from the rock gym when my car's in the shop while eating a Venezuelan arepa: Lonsdale Ave DD.
-For nostalgia: Dexter Street DD, Pawtucket/ Central Falls line (near my old office). Never had a burnt cuppa there.

For those not from RI: we start drinking coffee milk in kindergarten. Provided by the schools, not parents.

Ooops, thread drift. Sorry.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Dunkies! on 12/03/2012 08:35:10 MST Print View

Many of us are rejoicing DD s coming to the Denver metro area. Oh yeah...

Beinga Pawtuxtet Valley boy (Coventry) , the one on Tiogue Ave was the DD of choice. Go more towards West Warwick, the one on Providence St by Royal Mills was a choice back when i was a young lad working at Kent Hospital on weekends trying to wake myself up from the fog of partying on Friday night.

I have a a cache of Autocrat coffee syrup in my cupboard. I pick up some every time I visit the family. :)

Thread drift indeed. ;)

Edited by PaulMags on 12/03/2012 09:01:42 MST.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: WhiteBlaze on 12/03/2012 08:47:27 MST Print View

I sat let those cats keep their heavy packs... keeps em closer to the TH.

Raquel Rascal

Locale: Rocky Mtn. West
... on 12/03/2012 15:24:33 MST Print View

DD coming to CO? cool. wait wait. Is DD Paleo friendly? ;)

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
DD on 12/03/2012 15:47:04 MST Print View

Paleo friendly? If you crunch the beans...sure! :)

As for CO:

There are some in Co Sprgs already IIRC...


Locale: Somewhere out hiking!!!
Come on, Jake... on 12/03/2012 16:37:25 MST Print View

I get ur upset with Alligator and Rick, but this was you posting just 6 weeks ago... Those are all your posts... Remember any of it??? You made disparaging remarks about Ryan on WB, and now you are doing the same about Rick on BPL... Hmmmmm...

Perhaps the Ultralight sub-forum here will see more traffic. it is sad how BPL has gone down the drain, it got me back into backpacking after a long hiatus. It was pretty evident last year when Ryan stopped posting all together, despite nasty criticism and complaints, that he was letting it burn to the ground.

New threads just created didnt last more than a few hours without being spammed. it's a ****show.. I showed a friend in the computer industry the site a while ago and he laughed at how old the software was..

Ryan makes money on his guided classes.. not on BPL or probably even his blog. if BPL goes down I don't think it hurts him.

They could have just shut down new registrations.... but no. another attempt to get more people to sign up for memberships... i highly doubt limiting Gear swap did much and this will have even less effect.. sad that a guy so smart in one field is so inept in another.

The membership is for the articles. I don't care about most of what is in the articles and could probably find a blog like Andrew's, Hendrik's, etc that would have similar. Having a forum to discuss and ask questions and share info is far more useful and has been ignored by Ryan for quite a while. Just the fact that he uses a software so outdated it is laughable is proof of that. the search function is unusable, no quote function, HTML needed for imbedding links and linked photos

In all forums the content and contributors are the valuable asset.. he ignores and dismisses that, that is why BPL is going down the drain.

spending money to help was the mistake of the people who paid for MLife's last time... i highly doubt they will get that support again.

where Ryan gets his actual money... when you're getting 600 bucks a day to hike... you're not worried about losing a few hundred bucks of membership fees

There were many threads of complaints. many suggestions for spam control, including offers by web savvy people to do code. many offers to help moderate spam. all ignored and it was shuttered up.

Ryan promised "new forum software" this year... uhh.. last year. didn't happen. he hasn't posted in more than a few threads in months and never in ones involving complaints.

he promised MLife people many things that apparently never went through when he begged for $ last time.

It is sad because BPL got me back into backpacking and dropped my pack from 25-30 for a weekend to 25 for a week with more room for improvement.

Yep, definitely the wrong approach, but what else is new there. I do not see many people paying 5 bucks to post on a forum that should be free. lots of MLifers have been talking a lot of crap about how "5 bucks is nothing blah blah" I am happy I found the site to lighten my pack and meet a few people but it has always had an elitist feel from the "members and Mlifers" just the fact that normal posters are categorized as "guests" is proof enough.

also doesn't change the fact that the whole board infrastructure is from like 1994 and the search function is less useful than a 4 year old with a set of encyclopedias. the complaints go back for years asking for better platforms and response in promises for improvements... which have never shown up.

every time i consider posting there I think that it is just positive reinforcement that they are doing something right and change my mind.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: is Anti-ultralight on 12/03/2012 16:54:09 MST Print View

I just stopped itno WB and tried to read some of this. Its like an abortion arguement. No listining, just people trying to make a point to other people trying to make a point, but no one listening.

IDK what Jake said, or didn't say...

What I want to know is why is 'fast' always tied to 'light'?

Its not like ULers are running or jogging. Its that when your pack doesn't weigh >20% of your bodyweight you don't get as tired so you can keep going.

Everybody over there kept hammering 'fast n light' like it is a mantra. Its a marketing slogan.

Also why does everybody assume UL is uncomfortable? I'm plenty comfortable. I carry a chair for Pete's sake.

You call UL uncomfortable (even though you've never tried it) yet you strap a 70lbs pack to your back?

Maybe I'm weird, but a 70lb pack sounds uncomfortable.

And A GPS being "dead weight"? I guess a map is dead weight too then?
Maybe I dont need the actual GPS function, but having a 24K topo map of my entire state in a small, easy to read, waterproof package sounds... nice.

2nd edit: If BPL is elitest then why aren't there "contributing member" and "silver member" etc. like Whiteblaze. ...Silver I wish I had... NVM

Edited by WoodenWizard on 12/03/2012 17:02:43 MST.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Come on, Jake... on 12/03/2012 17:01:28 MST Print View

I still think the way he handled the spam issue and the board infrastructure is terrible but that it is a minor blip on his radar. I was also not the only one frustrated about it

it also didn't do jack to raise the UL forum over there.. not a tiny bit. I was hopeful and wrong.

on WB, having to pay to edit things also does not help. Sometimes you say stuff when you are frustrated or comes out wrong and you get hung for it.

the fact that others here have seen similar over there means that i'm not the only one.

I am going to a post less attitude on here and not worry about it. I am glad to share what I know the best.. white mountains and the Long Trail and try to stick to that.

Edit: Barry, trying to give advice there is generally useless, the majority of the posters want you to say "you're doing everything right!" and confirm everything they think they know.

There is a poster who complains on a regular basis that the AT in the wilderness section of the White Mountains is not blazed (as per the Wilderness rules) Apparently 4' high cairns are too difficult. A map or GPS might not help that kind of stupid. (he is still bitter from his thru-hike like 3 years ago) When you walk in a fairly straight line connecting dots for 2000mi your brain goes mushy i think.

Edited by JakeDatc on 12/03/2012 17:09:43 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Come on, Jake... on 12/03/2012 17:26:10 MST Print View

"Ryan makes money on his guided classes.. not on BPL or probably even his blog. if BPL goes down I don't think it hurts him."

Maybe he's not doing it for the money?

I do not see many people paying 5 bucks to post on a forum that should be free. lots of MLifers have been talking a lot of crap about how "5 bucks is nothing blah blah""

This is an old complaint, so I'll post an old reply. If NOBODY pays anything, how do you expect the forums where you have learned so much to continue operating? It takes a server, telecommunications capability, website maintenance, etc, none of which pops up out of nowhere like one of those schmoos in the venerable Little Abner comic strip. It costs money. So, I'll ask you: Where is that money supposed to come from? Those Mlifer's are talking crap, my friend, they're talking reality.

"I am happy I found the site to lighten my pack and meet a few people but it has always had an elitist feel from the "members and Mlifers" just the fact that normal posters are categorized as "guests" is proof enough."

And yet you hung around long enough to milk the site for what you needed to get back into backpacking, lighten your pack, and meet a few good people, none of them, presumably elitist members. All courtesy of those elitists you malign, who did pony up for the same benefits, a lot more than 5 dollars. I don't get people like you. Maybe it's just a generation gap kind of thing, but I wasn't raised to expect things to be free. As far as I'm concerned, you can complain about what you're getting for the price; indeed, a lot of people are unhappy with the gap between what was promised and what they got, but don't expect it to be free. The world just doesn't work that way.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Come on, Jake... on 12/03/2012 18:13:01 MST Print View

None of the Rock climbing forums that I am on are membership driven. Just because people would rather pay than see a few discrete ads is not my problem. I don't mind them and it would probably have more income than $5 a person. Check out Mountain Project, SuperTopo,, (this is privately owned and used by a very small group and still has better interface than here)

I do not complain about the things that I do not get for free. I've read a few free articles but not that many. I do not wish I had read any of the non-free ones.