Forum Index » Editor's Roundtable » Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review


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Maia
(maia) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/27/2012 19:54:33 MST Print View

Companion forum thread to:

Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Fuel efficiency on 11/27/2012 20:17:57 MST Print View

How does the Xcelerator compare to the Litemax for fuel efficiency? To the Primus Micron?

Jan Rezac
(zkoumal) - MLife

Locale: Prague, CZ
Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple - preheat tube on 11/28/2012 06:42:28 MST Print View

I have seen this stove sold under a local brand here and now I found they also sell a heavier version (steel instead of titanium) which has a preheat tube:

http://www.pinguincz.cz/vareni-varice-a-nadobi-mantis.html

The construction (burner, legs) seems to be identical, what suggest it is made by the same manufacturer. It is quite possible that the parts are interchangeable, what would make it possible to combine the titanium components with the jet assembly with a preheat tube. The combination would be what Ryan calls for in the review.

The downside is that one have to buy two stoves. The result would be nice, but not worth the money for me.

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
Fire Maple 117t / Olicamp Xcellerator on 11/28/2012 07:18:54 MST Print View

Jan, there are thread(s) in the forums above us, wherein at least one person has "mix-n-matched" the two stoves to create a ti-version with the preheat tube from the steel. As with you, this option is too expensive for me.

Thanks to Brad and Ryan for producing this very timely and "not major brand name" review! As an owner of the 117t, I have been impressed with the stove and have been putting it through its paces in testing/review for potential use in our Scout Troop as a backpacking patrol stove. I like the low, wide stance of the stove, the ability to wind-screen it without concern over the canister and the minimal weight.

I think the published review could benefit from a quick note or observation regarding the width/stance of the pot supports, especially for those who might use the stove as a personal rig: it's nice and wide for use with skillets and large pots, but the opening between the legs in the center is *too wide* for safe use of narrow pots such as Fosters Can.

Fosters can on a 117t
Here's the stove with a Foster's Can

Fire Maple 117t  width compared to Optimus Crux
Comparison to an Optimus Crux

There are more photos, and my informal reports on this stove, as well as a related Heat Exchanger pot made by the same factory, in this thread on BPL:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=67938

Jeff McWilliams
(jjmcwill) - M
Winter cooking on 11/28/2012 10:56:15 MST Print View

When I received the email containing a link to this article, the link included the subheading:

"Finally, a remote-canister stove for winter cooking without the extra weight".

Without a preheat tube, I think it hardly qualifies as a good winter stove, and the content of the article correctly addresses this.

I see, too, that the article itself has removed the "winter cooking" from the sub-title.


Thanks for the review. I enjoyed it, and it's good to see more competition on the market for stoves in general.

Roger B
(rogerb) - MLife

Locale: Here and there
Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/28/2012 11:24:31 MST Print View

I have only played with my FMS 117 Ti stove and am very impressed, however, you should also take a look at these comments regarding pre heat tube and the changes to the burner head over time.



Combo Ti and Pre Heat Tube 1


Combo Ti and Pre heat tube 2

Burner distortion



Yes I do intend to use mine, as it is ideal for the wider pots I prefer.

Edited by rogerb on 11/28/2012 12:32:23 MST.

Mike Oxford
(moxford) - MLife

Locale: Silicon Valley, CA
Interesting on 11/28/2012 11:31:21 MST Print View

Odd that it gets a "recommended" rating with all the negatives and caveats.

I don't know that I'm a fan of that low-hanging fuel line, the 90deg right angle, or the apparent stress from the 90deg hose right where it mounts to the body...seems like it would start to wear through repeated use.

Ryan, if you're not smitten with the uber-fast boil times of the Jetboil ...

The new MSR Whisperlite Universal is 6oz heavier than this review, but you don't have to buy a winter stove, it runs on canister (upright or inverted), white gas and you don't need a secondary attachment (cost + weight) if you want to use a pot with it or a fry pan. :)

It's not "ultralight" but then again, neither is the Jetboil line. The Jetboil Sol is about the same weight as MSR Whisperlite Universal + Evernew 900ml pot and lid. (335g vs 358g (258g + 100g))

Sol weight from here
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/sotm11_jetboil_sol_advanced_review.html

MSR weight
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=52851

Evernew weight
http://www.ultralightdesigns.com/products/cooking/evernew900Mug.html

Mark Sanbourne
(MarkSanbourne) - MLife

Locale: New Hampshire
117v Ti stove review on 11/28/2012 13:58:03 MST Print View

I noticed in this review that test stove being done utilizing Foster's beer can. Most of these are coated in BPA to prevent acid corrosion with aluminum.
Certainly hope it was for test run on boiling time and not for food preparation.

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
Re: 117v Ti stove review on 11/28/2012 17:24:58 MST Print View

There's a Foster's can in the review? Are you sure?

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/28/2012 18:08:31 MST Print View

The lack of preheat tube problem looks entirely solvable.

1) Very little preheating is really needed on a propane/butane stove. Could the desired effect be achieved by simply running the flexible hose *near* (not in) the flame? Maybe it could be tied in place with a bit of wire...

2) How is the flexible hose constructed? Would it withstand the heat of running it across the top of the burner *through* the flame?

3) If 1 or 2 isn't feasible, it looks like a conventional preheat loop might be fabricated from brass tubing and fitted to the stove at a weight penalty of less than an ounce or so.

It definitely looks ripe for experimentation (at your own risk, of course).

YMMV.

-Mike

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/28/2012 20:53:15 MST Print View

"Could the desired effect be achieved by simply running the flexible hose *near* (not in) the flame?"

I wouldn't do that. While the outside of the flexable hose is metal the inside is likely plastic or rubber. If the internal plastic tube gets to hot the fuel would leak out and the hose would start to burn. It's not easy to to make a flexable all metal tube that won't kinking or break.

"If 1 or 2 isn't feasible, it looks like a conventional preheat loop might be fabricated from brass tubing and fitted to the stove at a weight penalty of less than an ounce or so."

Its not easy to modify the stove to accept a hand made preheat tube. In most customized stoves I have seen, people find a stove with a preheat tube and swap parts. Another option I have seen is to run a ribbon of copper from the metal bottom of the stove to the flame. The coper would conduct heat to the base and hopefully heat the fuel before it gets to the jet.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/28/2012 20:59:52 MST Print View

"While the outside of the flexable hose is metal the inside is likely plastic or rubber. If the internal plastic tube gets to hot the fuel would leak out and the hose would start to burn."

Yah, I agree. I was hoping it might be silicone on the inside.

"run a ribbon of copper from the metal bottom of the stove to the flame."

That sounds very promising and elegant on this stove. Though it's been used for decades on sit-on-top stoves, I've always considered it risky to directly heat the canister with a copper wire heat exchanger. This stove doesn't seem to have that limitation.

-Mike

Douglas Ray
(dirtbagclimber)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Copper wire might make it work... on 11/28/2012 23:44:43 MST Print View

I've been wondering for some time if one could get some single-strand copper wire and wrap it around the fitting where the fuel line entered the stove body, than run the stove in inverted-canister mode. I presume this would not work at quite as low of a temperature as a true pre-heat tube, but it might be enough for a lot of us.

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/29/2012 02:13:45 MST Print View

This stove is NOT suitable for inverted canister use.

Could the desired effect be achieved by simply running the flexible hose *near* (not in) the flame? Would it withstand the heat of running it across the top of the burner *through* the flame?

Definitely NOT! The rubber hose is 1) thermally insulating and 2) will most likely burn if it gets hot.

There is a very simple solution when using this type of stove in freezing conditions - simple sit the canister in a pot/bowl of luke warm water, then it will work perfectly.

BTW, here is my 3.4oz remote stove with a pre-heat tube

carlos fernandez rivas
(pitagorin) - MLife

Locale: Galicia -Spain
Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/29/2012 06:16:01 MST Print View

Fire maple has a stove suited for upside down use..... and is still light

http://fire-maple.com/products_del.html?news_id=73&c_id=5&cate_id=8

Brad Groves
(4quietwoods) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/29/2012 17:10:52 MST Print View

To clarify: Both Ryan and I give this stove a "Highly Recommended" rating for its intended use as a 3-season backpacking stove. Also significant: We rate it "Highly Recommended" as based on its design and intended use.

In my opinion this is the benchmark stove for all other 3-season stoves on the market. It is everything a good backpacking stove should be, and nothing more. In my mind it's pointless to have a 3-ish ounce canister-mount stove when you could have one the same weight with all the benefits of a remote canister... more stable, ability to use a windscreen, etc. This is a perfect stove for even young beginners- just about impossible to mess up. The price is pretty great, too.

This is now the first, and likely only, stove that I recommend to people who ask me what kind of backpacking stove they should get. For three-season use, if you're not Ti-Tri savvy or inclined, the xCelerator is the way to go.

THE STOVE IS NOT BUILT OR INTENDED FOR WINTER USE. IT IS A 3-SEASON STOVE.

The twisted minds of many BPLers, however, somewhat perversely leap immediately to thoughts of using canisters upside down for winter use. It doesn't matter to them that the stove was NOT intended for use in winter, because that's what they want to do. If the canister's remote, darnit, these people want to turn it upside down. If you would consider, say, a side-by-side comparison of a Mini Cooper and a Peterbilt for towing capacity, the Mini would not rate very high, despite its other arguably redeeming qualities. Although the desire to make these leaps in comparison is... silly, we know our readers... and let's face it, some staffers... will WANT to use the stove in a way other than intended.

The lower rating is based entirely on those of you who regularly ignore the "intended use" aspect of gear. If you are the type who gets annoyed that your poncho tarp didn't keep you protected from the weather on a recent trip up Mt Washington... you were probably the targeted audience for the lower rating...

Brad Groves
(4quietwoods) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/29/2012 17:13:49 MST Print View

Incidentally, the Whisperlite Universal and the Xcelerator are WORLDs apart. The Universal is a HEAVY BEAST, it doesn't simmer, and it is, in general, a disappointing stove. There is a forthcoming review on the Universal.

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/29/2012 22:31:06 MST Print View

I want more information on the cook kit(s) used in the review of this stove.

Rex Sanders
(Rex) - M

Locale: Central California Coast
Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/29/2012 23:28:56 MST Print View

Brad says:
"It is everything a good backpacking stove should be, and nothing more."

How about reliable and lightweight?

I've had brand-name expensive canisters leak in the back country, cutting trips short. For that reason alone, I will not use any canister stove again, and I don't recommend them for backpacking.

OTOH, I can't imagine any total failure scenarios for Esbit. You can prop a pot on tent stakes or rocks to burn Esbit, if needed.

And for most trips, decent Esbit stoves with fuel weigh ounces less than any canister stove with fuel.

I'm not trying to start canister-vs-Esbit wars. Esbit certainly has drawbacks in various scenarios.

"This is now the first, and likely only, stove that I recommend to people who ask me what kind of backpacking stove they should get."

I am troubled by this blanket endorsement of a stove that has tradeoffs in two important areas.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 11/30/2012 00:02:15 MST Print View

A few extra points about this stove.

First, it is made by Fire Maple in China with the model name of FMS-117T. The Olicamp branding is purely OEM stuff. The Fire Maple version is gold coloured where the Olicamp OEM version is blue.

Second, it is a 'stretched' version of the FMS-116T stove, sometimes known as a Monatauk Gnat, although that too is just an OEM branding. If you compare the two you will quite easily see how it was done.

Third, the hose is typically PFA tubing with a SS braid cover, and totally unsuited to being put near the flame!!! It will not be silicone tubing because silicone tubing is slightly porous to propane/butane mix.

Yes, there is a winter version in progress, but not as developed. There are other details, but more on that later.

Cheers

Don Bushek
(donb) - M

Locale: Minneapolis
silicone tubing on 11/30/2012 12:14:18 MST Print View

A couple of posts here have presumed that silicone tubing would be suitable to route through the flame, ie is flame-proof. I doubt it! Silicone is not a thermoplatic, so it won't melt. But in a flame, it will degrade and eventually (at a high enough temperature) combust.

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
a Better Solution for use of the 117t or Excellerator on 11/30/2012 14:45:41 MST Print View

I think the better "solution" to the issue with preheating of fuel and inversion of the canisters with this stove is "to not do it".

I've personally got more shakedown to go with my 117t and the Boy Scouts who may adopt it as their standard Patrol Stove, but the general intent is that it will be a 3-season stove. With use in weather ranging from 20-90 Fahrenheit, I expect the stove will continue to function as reliably and effectively as every other canister stove we've used and enjoyed (even when we have to stash the fuel in the bottom of a sleeping bag). Based on my experience with canister stoves (and decades of use with a variety of white-gas, hexamine/esbit and even butane stoves), I really see this stove as having a lot of potential. It's encouraging to read the conclusions of our review authors on this topic, that's for sure!

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 11/30/2012 17:40:51 MST Print View

Hi roger,

I'm not having much luck getting an answer from the reviewers to the question below, so I'll try my luck with you, as a very knowledgable stove person.

Cheers


How does the Xcelerator compare to the Litemax for fuel efficiency? To the Primus Micron?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 11/30/2012 18:54:49 MST Print View

Hi Tom

> How does the Xcelerator compare to the Litemax for fuel efficiency? To the Primus Micron?
This is a good question, but my answer may not be what you were expecting.

With few exceptions,the power put out by a canister stove is mainly a function of the jet size (~0.30 mm) and the temperature of the canister (ie the pressure inside the canister). The shape (or brand) of the burner etc etc really plays little part in this.

However, you can change the efficiency of any stove over quite a large range by how you use it. If you always run it flat out, you will get low efficiency: most of the heat goes up the side of the pot and escapes. If you run it at a moderate rate with a windshield about 15 mm from the pot you will get good efficiency.

Some stoves have a poor burner design. The MSR Pocket Rocket focuses the heat at the middle of the pot for instance. I don't like that design myself (and the pot supports are flimsy). Some stoves put out quite a lot of Carbon Monoxide due to poor air inlet design or pot position, but I don't think alters the fuel efficiency much.

Some pots have built-on heat exchangers. That alters the efficiency to be sure, but that is not really a function of the stove design.

Some people get very poor fuel efficiency because they run the stove flat out and they don't use a good windshield around the stove. Yes, I know the lawyers for some well-known brands have hysterics about windshields. Cretins. And cooking without a lid on the pot wastes a lot of heat too.

Just a thought for those who have little experience with canister stoves. The large hotplate on a domestic electric stove might, maybe, have a power rating of 2.4 kW. Most tiny canister stoves have a power rating closer to 3 kw, and are more powerful that white gas stoves as well.

Cheers

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
Fire Maple FMS-118 Volcano on 11/30/2012 23:07:00 MST Print View

Anyone have any experience or comment on the Fire Maple FMS-118 Volcano for winter use in inverted can mode?
http://fire-maple.com/products_del.html?news_id=73&c_id=5&cate_id=8

How it might compare with Primus Express Spider
http://store.primuscamping.com/backpacking-stoves/single-fuel/butane/expressspider-w/windscreen/

And MSR Windpro II
http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/stoves/gourmet-cooking/windpro-ii/product

I'm not sure where you can even purchase the Volcano, but it looks interesting.

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
Look in GEAR forum on 12/01/2012 02:41:38 MST Print View

Yes, people here have experience with the 118 "Volcano". There are threads discussing it in the GEAR forum. There is also at least one thread with an example of a hybrid 117t/118, created to utilize the ti structure but the preheating tube.

Fire Maple 117t and HE pot
Another look at the Fire Maple 117t version of the Olicamp Xcelerator (well, the other way around) and a Fire Maple hard-ano HE pot...

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
Yep, that stove's on BPL, too on 12/01/2012 02:41:38 MST Print View

--censored, due to revelation of secret fuel efficiency data--


or, double post

Edited by EBasil on 12/01/2012 02:43:04 MST.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 12/01/2012 05:57:20 MST Print View

I think the Olicamp 117V looks like a very basic and functional stove.

With a wind screen, and, on a simmer setting it will do as well with efficiency as any other. Indeed,here is a quote from the article:
"The FMS-117T replaces my WindPro II for pot sizes less than about 2.5 liters, where fuel consumption and efficiency between the two are similar."
He goes on to say that for larger pots it is less efficient:
"However, for larger volume pots (we use 4.5L pots for large patrols and groups), The WindPro II's larger burner head, and preheat tube (which allows for the canister to be inverted) means that boil times and fuel use are significantly less (15%+ depending on conditions) with the WindPro II vs. the FMS-117T."

Fuel consumption with any canister stove will be about the same. There is not that much difference in all the stoves, since they all burn pretty clean. The small bit of CO produced likely looses a bit of total energy, but very little.

Generally, at least in my experience, this means that the 117V looks like a winner for the conditions it was designed for. The big advantage to the 117V is the specific design for THREE season use. It is NOT a winter stove and was never designed as one. They produce other stoves that are designed for cold weather.
They saved weight by removing the preheat tube and machining parts from Ti or aluminum.

This does not preclude a bit of experimentation.

Fuel consumprion can be drastically improved by using a tight wind screen, such as a Caldera Cone, over the stove and maintaining the flame distance. Turn the heat down to low/very low. Using these two steps will result in decreasing fuel consumption drastically. Turning the stove off immediatly when not in use will help. I expect an easy 50% decrease in fuel usage.

Most of us do not lead groups into the wilderness, so, loosing the larger pot/frying capability becomes unimportant. Since a Caldera Cone supports the pot, it is possible to loose the grates. And, because weight is not expected on the stove, we can grind off the bent feet, too. This will save about 1/2-3/4oz. Note that for 3-4 cup pots it is possible to use the pot to do small frying chores (cooking a fish for example) or baking (cooking cinamon rolls.) So, replacing the 12/10 alcohol stove with a modified 117V provides additional capability for a total weight difference of 3-4oz, assuming similar fuel capability is carried for alcohol and the canister.

For three season use, the stove looks pretty good. I don't expect it to be capable of winter use. And, I expect fuel consumption is OK as it sits and can be excelent with minor mods.

John Coyle
(Bigsac)

Locale: NorCal
Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove on 12/01/2012 20:54:34 MST Print View

Available from Amazon for $60.51 in the U.S.A., may be cheaper somewhere else. I just ordered one, and since I live in California, Amazon adds on the state sales tax, which is now 8% since proposition 30 passed. The wages of sin in the "Golden State." I never liked the stove on top of the canister concept mainly due to incompatibility with a windscreen, and the wind always seem to be blowing in Northern California where I backpack. I hope it has brass canister threads. I plan to use it with a .9L REI titanium pot and the nice Zelph corrugated windscreen. Slan agus beannacht leat!

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/02/2012 19:51:41 MST Print View

"This is a good question, but my answer may not be what you were expecting."


Hi Roger,

True enough. I was looking more for the kind of numbers you provided in your excellent Heat Exchanger Stove Shootout: Part 2 article, specifically grams of fuel used to boil 1 liter of water. For those who have not read the article I am referring to, it would be well worth your time. Here is the link:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_efficiency_p2.html

I realized after I posted my question that this was probably an unrealistic question on my part, given the fact that the stove is a relatively new item and that you'd have to go to a lot of trouble to set up the test to get that data. Too much trouble for one stove to answer one person's question, methinks.

As for your suggestions on how to maximize stove performance, I am totally on board. I would add one further one to the list: Do not boil your water. There is an enormous energy penalty associated with boiling water, 540 calories/gram, known as the latent heat of vaporization. For any cooking/sterilization purpose I can think of, raising the temperature to somewhere between 150-180 degrees F, or even to just below boiling, depending on individual taste, should suffice.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/02/2012 20:19:10 MST Print View

Hi Tom

Well, yes, I would have to set up the whole test system to measure the fuel efficiency. The BIG problem with that is the fact that the only PC I have which can run my old data logger unit has died. (IBM Thinkpad, dead battery.) By way of explanation, the data logger needs the original parallel port chip by MOSTEK as it uses some very obscure features found only in that chip. Modern PP emulators can't do it - and both I and the mfr have tried.

However, my experience over a range of upright stoves (different models, different brands) is that the variation in fuel consumption between stoves is actually less (in general) that the variation found between low power and high power for the same stove. Large changes in pot diameter also change the efficiency somewhat.

I have considerable experience with the burner head used in the FMS-117T stove: Fire Maple have used it on several different models. It does have good efficiency. By way of example, I normally allow 30 g of fuel per day for morning tea and dinner for Sue and myself. On a 6 day trip last week with an MYOG stove using that same burner head I averaged 26 g per day.

> Do not boil your water. There is an enormous energy penalty associated with boiling
> water, 540 calories/gram, known as the latent heat of vaporization.
Well, yes, BUT that only applies when you try to boil the water away into steam. Just taking water up to 100 C does not incur that penalty.

If you are trying to cook some sorts of rice or rehydrate some sorts of dehydrated foods (for instance), you do really need to hold the water at 100 C for some time. Just holding the water at 80 C (~180 F) simply will not (ime) get some sorts of rice or dehi soft. The water just does not seem to get into the food. Somer foods are worse than others in this regard.

But that does not mean you have to incur a significant fuel penalty. If you hold the pot 'just' at 100 C (boiling) with the water (or stew) giving a steam burp once every 5 seconds or so, AND you keep a lid on the pot so lots of steam don't evaporate away, that is enough and it takes very little fuel to do that. What it does take of course is a stove which can be fine-tuned down to a very low simmer. This is not something you get from white gas stoves ... :-)

Cheers

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/03/2012 01:58:21 MST Print View

...with an MYOG stove using that same burner head...

Enquiring minds want to know more!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/03/2012 02:41:36 MST Print View

> Enquiring minds want to know more!
Article in preparation.
:-)

Cheers

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/03/2012 06:48:52 MST Print View

So pre heat tube version would look similar to the one Hendrik is giving away. does not fold as small. Not an issue depending on pot size.

55554
imaged borrowed from Hiking in Finland

Edited by kthompson on 12/03/2012 06:51:58 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/03/2012 13:55:25 MST Print View

Ooh! Interesting!
I recognise the burner head (and the canister connection) but not the pot stand. I wonder which factory that one came from? Got any more details?

Yes, I know it it is the Opilio on the Edelrid web site, but they don't actually make their stoves either. It could be a custom pot stand combined with other stock bits.

Cheers

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/03/2012 17:56:01 MST Print View

"However, my experience over a range of upright stoves (different models, different brands) is that the variation in fuel consumption between stoves is actually less (in general) that the variation found between low power and high power for the same stove. Large changes in pot diameter also change the efficiency somewhat."

+1 Low power is the way to go, IMO/IME.

"I have considerable experience with the burner head used in the FMS-117T stove: Fire Maple have used it on several different models. It does have good efficiency. By way of example, I normally allow 30 g of fuel per day for morning tea and dinner for Sue and myself. On a 6 day trip last week with an MYOG stove using that same burner head I averaged 26 g per day."

Wince, but that's because I'm a guy that is used to wringing 7 days out of a 110 gram canister for 2 people. But that is due to a difference in cooking styles. We each get by with 12 oz of water, brought to near body temp in the sleeping bag overnight and then heated to drinking temperature plus a bit to allow for cooling, probably ~150 degrees.

"Well, yes, BUT that only applies when you try to boil the water away into steam. Just taking water up to 100 C does not incur that penalty."

True enough, if you can control it that precisely. Mostly, I just wanted to give the potential penaly some visibility, especially since I have heard so many references to "bringing water to a boil". It is certainly not an issue for me, given my above mentioned style.

"If you are trying to cook some sorts of rice or rehydrate some sorts of dehydrated foods (for instance), you do really need to hold the water at 100 C for some time. Just holding the water at 80 C (~180 F) simply will not (ime) get some sorts of rice or dehi soft. The water just does not seem to get into the food. Somer foods are worse than others in this regard."

Here things get a bit sticky, IME. For lower elevations this holds. At higher elevations, water will boil at temperatures well below 100* C. In this case, one would not only incur the fuel penalty, but their rice would be, shall we say, al dente. Most folks who hike at higher elevations therefore use only foods that can be made palatable at much lower temperatures, cous cous, cracked wheat, and dehydrated food that reconstitute at lower temps, etc. This is the audience I was addressing when I made my original comments about latent heat of vaporization, as many of them have mentioned bringing water to a boil in various threads. Even if they do not boil for long, there is a certain penalty, perhaps small but nonetheless real, to be paid unnecessarily for the small of water they vaporize, and in reality their food would likely reconstitute at a much lower temperature, saving even more fuel. I know this to be true simply because I cooked my meals for many years and found myself saving considerable fuel after I figured out that I didn't have to bring my water to a boil, or even close, to rehydrate potatoes, beans, cous cous, etc. FWIW

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/03/2012 20:28:58 MST Print View

> We each get by with 12 oz of water, brought to near body temp in the sleeping bag
> overnight and then heated to drinking temperature plus a bit to allow for cooling,
> probably ~150 degrees.
Um. This gives you warm water at breakfast time, yes? What do you do for dinner? Fwiiw, we have a cold breakfast for speed, except in the snow.

Our 26 g per day is for tea&coffee at 10 am and a good stew in the evening.If you skip the T&C you would maybe halve the amount of fuel. ... Skip coffee????? !@#$%^&*

Another difference is that we have a very limited range of freeze-dry foods here in Oz. There is basically one brand, which is very expensive. And there are 'dried foods/meals', but they take an awful lot of cooking to get them to rehydrate, and even then they don't taste that wondeful. So I do my own menu design and cooking, like our 'cooking girls' (to whom my compliments).

> At higher elevations, water will boil at temperatures well below 100* C. In this
> case, one would not only incur the fuel penalty, but their rice would be, shall we
> say, al dente.
Granted the reduction in boiling point, but up to 2,000 m I have never had any problem there. I bring the meal to the boil, briefly, than let it sit for 5 minutes or so, insulated. At high altitude, I add another minute. Well, works for us, anyhow. (Sue does not like al dente rice or pasta ...)

Cheers

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove @ Roger C. on 12/04/2012 15:00:26 MST Print View

"Um. This gives you warm water at breakfast time, yes? What do you do for dinner? Fwiiw, we have a cold breakfast for speed, except in the snow."

Hi Roger,

What it gives me is warm water that needs a lot less fuel to bring it to the right temperature for making a proper cup of coffee. Warm coffee is downright uncivilized.
I also have a cold breakfast, both for speed and to save fuel for the really important thing: COFFEE. ;0)

"Another difference is that we have a very limited range of freeze-dry foods here in Oz. There is basically one brand, which is very expensive. And there are 'dried foods/meals', but they take an awful lot of cooking to get them to rehydrate, and even then they don't taste that wondeful. So I do my own menu design and cooking, like our 'cooking girls' (to whom my compliments)."

+1 They don't taste so hot here either, IMO, so I used to use more basic ingredients like mashed potatoes, cous cous, dried pre cooked beans, pea soup, etc, all of which reconstitute quite nicely at a temperature much lower than boiling. This cuts fuel requirements considerably over the course of say, a 7-9 day trip.

"At high altitude, I add another minute. Well, works for us, anyhow. (Sue does not like al dente rice or pasta ...)"

At 10,000' and above, I have found it problematic and expensive in fuel consumption to use regular rice and most beans. This led me to the above ingredients, but I did find one lentil, the Indian red lentil known as masur dal, that would cook in a reasonable time if I soaked it all day on a day when I was laying over. It makes a wonderful soup. I am with Sue on the al dente bit. Ughhhhh!

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 02/21/2013 18:51:50 MST Print View

Brad Groves wrote: > Incidentally, the Whisperlite Universal and the Xcelerator are WORLDs apart. The Universal is a HEAVY BEAST, it doesn't simmer...
Well, that's interesting. I was able to get a really good simmer on my W'lite Universal, including on kerosene. It's not like the ease of a simmer on a valve-at-the-burner stove (e.g. a Dragonfly, Nova, Omnifuel, etc.), but I was able to get a really good simmer -- WAY better than what I could ever get on a pre-2012 Whisperlite.

The FMS-117T does look like a step in the right direction in terms of weight and packability. It doesn't quite have the ingenuity of design and degree of manufacturing precision of Korean, American, European, and Japanese stoves.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 02/21/2013 20:42:25 MST Print View

> It doesn't quite have the ingenuity of design and degree of manufacturing precision
> of Korean, American, European, and Japanese stoves.

To the best of my limited knowledge, there are NO stoves made in America or Europe: they are all made in Asia, usually either Korea (=Kovea) or China. Even the latest Snow Peak stove was made for them.

And I don't think either America or Europe do much these days in the way of design either. Basically, you can't usefully 'design' a stove without making prototypes.

Lots more details in a forthcoming article on Stove Developments.

Cheers

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 02/21/2013 21:08:26 MST Print View

The information that I have is that Primus still makes it's stoves in Europe (Estonia).

MSR still makes it's stoves in the US and I believe Ireland except the MicroRocket and PocketRocket which are made in Korea, presumably by Kovea.

Soto makes their stoves in Japan.

My understanding is that after their fiasco of moving Nova production to mainland China that the Optimus Nova is now made in Taiwan. I believe the Optimus Svea 123R is also made in Taiwan.

The Trangia (obviously not a petroleum based stove) is still made in Sweden to the best of my knowledge.

That's not to say that an awful lot of companies don't have all or part of their stoves made in mainland China. Still, the Chinese stove companies don't seem, at least to me, to have the polish that their foreign counterparts have (Japan, Korea, US, Europe). I'll look forward to your forthcoming article.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 02/21/2013 23:36:39 MST Print View

Er, well, I hope that doesn't come across as being argumentative. Oops if so.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm still seeing a difference with stoves built by non Chinese companies (even if manufactured in China) vs. those designed and built in China. The Jetboil for example is made in China and seems quite well made but is not a Chinese company or a Chinese design.

It's the Fire Maple, Bulin, etc. stoves that seem a little less polished than their non-Chinese counterparts, at least from photos and my personal observation. For example, there's a photo of the 117's sister stove, the FMS-118 on a thread in the Gear forum:


I see a certain crudeness in the machining. Of course I may be a bit of a stove snob. :) Then again, the FMS-118 is having problems when used in inverted mode because the bore of the fuel line is too large, allowing unvaporized fuel to get to the burner. There was also a Chinese stove whose fuel line was made of a material that flaked off small bits, clogging the jet; it was reported here on BPL by Tony Beasley a year or two ago. There have been numerous Euro zone Chinese stove recalls due to safety hazards.

It's certainly true that much of manufacturing is going to Asia, and the Chinese are no dummies. They've clearly identified strong selling characteristics: ultralight upright canister stoves, ultralight remote canister stoves, and remote canister stoves with pre-heat loops all of which will appeal to slightly different market segments. My noting that Chinese stoves aren't quite yet up to their non-Chinese counterparts standards of design and manufacture doesn't mean that the Chinese aren't making great strides forward. Were I a non-Chinese stove company, I'd be quaking in my boots right now as I look to the future.

Finally, I hope that the introduction of some very lightweight remote canister stoves will force the non-Chinese stove companies to come out with designs of their own. There's no reason for a remote canister stove to weigh 2.5 times more than an upright canister stove.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 02/22/2013 02:28:20 MST Print View

Hi Jim

> Primus still makes it's stoves in Europe (Estonia).
I stand to be corrected here. I know some of their stoves did come from Asia, but the quality was not high. It may indeed be that they have returned to Europe via Estonia: I imagine the wages there are not as high as in, say, Germany. Eastern Europe does have some engineering skills. I buy very nice taps and dies from Poland.

> MSR still makes it's stoves in the US
Oh?
I am willing to believe, but I would need good proof. The rules about labeling allow all sorts of sneaky tricks there.

> My understanding is that after their fiasco of moving Nova production to mainland
> China that the Optimus Nova is now made in Taiwan.
Snicker.
There are many, many, small backyard stove manufacturers in China - MANY. Few of them know what they are doing. Few of them are known outside China. I do agree that most Chinese stove companies do not present a high degree of polish.

Yes, I address a lot of this in some forthcoming articles. Stay tuned.

Cheers

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim)

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Olicamp Xcelerator/Fire-Maple FMS-117V Ti Stove Review on 02/22/2013 14:58:52 MST Print View

> MSR still makes it's stoves in the US
Oh?
I am willing to believe, but I would need good proof. The rules about labeling allow all sorts of sneaky tricks there.
Aye, and some companies are downright sneaky about it. Don't know in MSR's case, but their site does list (generally) that their tents are made in Taiwan, their pots in Thailand, and that the PocketRocket and MicroRocket are made in Korea. It would seem (and of course seem does not prove) that they're being reasonably forthcoming, but perhaps not. I have no special knowledge here.

> My understanding is that after their fiasco of moving
> Nova production to mainland
> China that the Optimus Nova is now made in Taiwan.
Snicker.
There are many, many, small backyard stove manufacturers in China - MANY. Few of them know what they are doing. Few of them are known outside China. I do agree that most Chinese stove companies do not present a high degree of polish.
Ah. That certainly aligns with what I'm seeing.

Yes, I address a lot of this in some forthcoming articles. Stay tuned.
I shall look forward with great anticipation.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Bill (L.Dog) Garlinghouse
(WJGhouse) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
Arrrgh! on 03/27/2014 11:31:14 MDT Print View

I've had the Monatauk Gnat for a couple of years. It has served me flawlessly, over 1300 miles, and I love it. I decided that it was time to get a spare washer in my kit cause its just a matter of time ...

Finding anyone, whether Monatauk, Fire Maple or Olicamp who will respond, knows anything, or has anything in stock has been an exercise in frustration. The Olicamp Kinetic Ultra and distributed in US by Liberty Mountain - www.libertymountain.com/ and they just told me it would be 4 months before they get them in stock.

Gonna go look at MSR ...