Forum Index » Editor's Roundtable » Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model


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Maia
(maia) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/13/2012 21:29:25 MST Print View

Companion forum thread to:

Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model

a b
(Ice-axe)
Re: Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/13/2012 21:53:25 MST Print View

Gotta show my dad this article next Saturday.
He'll be rolling on the floor.

One addition:
Fishnet underwear for cold wet weather was made in South Western England in the early forties for British Commandos during World war 2.
Thats why my dad will laugh.
He rememebers the people of his village in Pendeen, Penzance in Cornwall, being paid to weave the mesh clothing and none of them at that time could understand what it's use could be.

What is old is new again indeed.

Great work and well done article.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/13/2012 22:33:56 MST Print View

I don't get it... how is this any different from wearing no base layer at all?

Lars Laird Iversen
(larslaird) - M
Super for varied activity! on 11/14/2012 00:14:00 MST Print View

Wow! Finally something we Norwegians do well!

I have a Brynje Antarctic, which is a double layer with synthetic mesh closest to the skin, attached to a layer of non-mesh merino. I absolutely love it. In very cold conditions, it lets me still feel light and comfortable. The best thing about it though, is that it is so versatile. As Ryan pointed out when talking about packrafting, it is comfortable when you really work hard, and then - when you stop - it is STILL keeping you warm and dry.

It does chafe, though. Nipples, beware!

Derek Goffin
(Derekoak)

Locale: North of England
new string vest on 11/14/2012 02:06:04 MST Print View

A long time ago I had one. It was only cotton and not fine mesh. It had its advantages but as has been mentioned it was uncomfortable under straps, over nipples and at seams where it was thick. I remember under the armpit. To me the Aclima idea of solid panels at these points would be the best of all worlds. perhaps finer merino mesh would allow some of these areas to be kept mesh. Or maybe I was a softie.

carlos fernandez rivas
(pitagorin) - MLife

Locale: Galicia -Spain
fishnet on 11/14/2012 03:45:47 MST Print View

I´been using fishet base layers for the last 20 years...

Here in Europe are easy to find and lot of cycling apparel brands have fishnet shirts sometimes much cheaper than outdoor brands. To test the concept this cyling shirst could be the best option

About the disadvantages as a standalone garment well ... I suspect that is clear that this garments are designed as a undergarment.

Edited by pitagorin on 11/14/2012 03:55:00 MST.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Fishnet on 11/14/2012 06:57:47 MST Print View

Thanks, Guys!

Don Selesky
(backslacker) - M
Re: Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/14/2012 07:36:37 MST Print View

I still use my old polypropylene fishnet shirt I got from L.L. Bean at least 20 years ago. Great for cooler hikes.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/14/2012 08:00:32 MST Print View

Nice article Ryan and Mike - I like the "out of box" thinking

I agree, the wicking concept is more marketing than anything useful

Once you sweat, it's going to take heat to evaporate it, doesn't matter if it gets wicked away from your skin

Maybe it's better to have the sweat stay next to your skin until it evaporates, because that might tend to reduce sweating?

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
keeping sweat next to skin on 11/14/2012 09:16:14 MST Print View

Jerry -

The concept of keeping sweat next to skin is an important one to understand, and capitalize on when it happens.

This of course is the beauty of VB clothing and why it is so effective.

When you wear wicking clothes, you lose this sensory perception of discomfort and end up overloading your clothing system with moisture. Then you stop, rest, and "flash off" all that moisture and need a fat parka to combat it.

I suppose I would hypothesize that they more you pay attention to the sensation of sweating, and can sense it when it happens, and make layering / ventilation adjustments accordingly, the drier you'll stay and thus, the lighter your clothing system might become.

But this requires thinking, work, fiddling, and perhaps, additional complexity in the process of layering/adjusting.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
wool fishnet on 11/14/2012 09:16:43 MST Print View

I have a set from my Dad that is thick and all wool. The bottoms work really well to
prevent overheating when worn under nylon pants and keep the cold wind from frosting the front of my legs. Work good this way for mosquito too.

The top is good for ski skating, but not so good under a heavy pack.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: fishnet on 11/14/2012 09:36:56 MST Print View

Carlos wrote: "About the disadvantages as a standalone garment well ... I suspect that is clear that this garments are designed as a undergarment."

Yes, certainly. But lightweight backpackers are always looking to minimize weight, often by system integration and multiple use of items. Since fishnet doesn't work well as a sole layer, we have to carry another layer that can serve that role in warmer conditions.

Jerry wrote: "Maybe it's better to have the sweat stay next to your skin until it evaporates, because that might tend to reduce sweating?"

I agree. Except at high exertion levels, if you are sweating, you are too warm. If you are too warm, you want the sweat to cool you. Having it evaporate off of your skin is a good way to do this. If you wick the sweat away from the skin, a) the wicking layer then insulates your skin from the sweat as it evaporates, and b) the wicking layer wets out more easily.

I also want to note that the fibers of a fishnet shirt, be they cotton, poly, or wool, still provide some wicking that improves next-to-skin comfort. But, they simply wick less than a more densely knit/woven shirt due to their much lower skin contact surface area.

Cheers,

Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/14/2012 09:53:46 MST.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Re: Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/14/2012 10:33:35 MST Print View

Yes. LL Bean sold this in the 80s. The bottoms were painful when you were sitting
They looked like you walked on the wild side.
They seemed to work well for mE. I used them for downhill
Forgot all about them.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: fishnet on 11/14/2012 10:55:09 MST Print View

Maybe the wicking should go the other direction - towards your skin

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Re: Re: fishnet on 11/14/2012 10:59:34 MST Print View

Jerry wrote: "Maybe the wicking should go the other direction - towards your skin"

Ha! I like to reverse directionally-wicking baselayers (like Powerdry) for that reason to control how warm they are -- Wear the fuzzy side in for maximum warmth; wear the fuzzy side out when it's too warm.

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/14/2012 11:01:14 MST.

Ike Jutkowitz
(Ike) - M

Locale: Central Michigan
re: Fishnets on 11/14/2012 13:03:31 MST Print View

Thanks for the informative article. I think I finally have my wife convinced about the benefits of fishnets for moisture management. Now if only you could provide an article documenting the use of corsets for lumbar support...

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
trail running on 11/14/2012 13:11:39 MST Print View

trail running in cool to cold conditions can be a challenge when it comes to staying even moderately dry; I'd be willing to give fishnet a try- where in the US can aclimba or brynje be sourced stateside?

Michael Gilbertson
(mkgil) - M
Dealers in the US? on 11/14/2012 14:05:00 MST Print View

Is Brynje available in the US?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Dealers in the US? on 11/14/2012 14:28:18 MST Print View

If you google "fishnet shirt" you can find fishnet shirts, but they're more costume oriented, or X rated

Yuri Pinsker
(ypinsker) - MLife
US Distributors/Online Dealers on 11/14/2012 14:39:53 MST Print View

Thank you for the great article and research. Were the items used in the testing procured in the U.S.? From online dealers?

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
re: US dealers on 11/14/2012 14:59:44 MST Print View

http://www.backcountry.com/castelli-core-mesh-base-layer-sleeveless-mens

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Dealers in the US? on 11/14/2012 16:47:20 MST Print View

Michael wrote: "Is Brynje available in the US?"

I've purchased Brynje from Reliable Racing (www.reliableracing.com) in the past. I'm not sure what items they currently carry.

peter vacco
(fluff@inreach.com) - M

Locale: no. california
what's old news is new again ! on 11/14/2012 19:05:49 MST Print View

peter tried introducing fishnet to the bpl group in the late 90's, and it just has to be better now that they added wool. as a poly only fabric, it was ok, but not as versatile for the weight as a light wt merino zip-t.
the initial idea at that time was as spaced armor in defense of insects, while keeping cool enough to cover ground. at the same time, we thought it might help add padding and some warmth on coolish days.
it's still a valid concept, and it need not be right on the skin to insulate, as it provides a handy way to increase depth between any two layers.2000

you need to be careful not to appear in public in this stuff .. it can trash your rep.

cheers,
v.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: what's old news is new again ! on 11/14/2012 19:22:03 MST Print View

"you need to be careful not to appear in public in this stuff .. it can trash your rep."

As my wife calls them wife beater t-shirts. These look too similar.

Michael Danielson
(mcd57) - MLife

Locale: Middle TN
Fishnet Model on 11/14/2012 19:52:20 MST Print View

I read that it was used in the 1940's. They also had it available in the 1970's. Surprised it took so long to come to the attention of this site. Thanks for the article.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Fishnet Model on 11/14/2012 20:01:50 MST Print View

"Surprised it took so long to come to the attention of this site."

It didn't. Someone mentioned them last year, if I recall correctly. At least that's when I think I bought some after reading about them on BPL. They work great, I really like them when winter backpacking. Like Mike Martin, I also bought mine at Reliable Racing.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
fishnet on 11/14/2012 20:10:39 MST Print View

It doesn't have to be fishnet to work. Quite some years ago, very loosely woven mesh polos and T's were common, and they worked as well, perhaps even better, than the fishnet. And looked much better, coming in different colors and tailoring.
Unfortunately, a lot of them were cotton or cotton-polyester, and while much more effective under an outer layer than plain woven cotton, wore out quickly. Several days of rainy hiking on the AT rotted out the last of my mostly cotton ones.

Then manufacturers made the mesh denser to improve their view of appearance; but this greatly reduced the fishnet factor. An example of this end stage development was the 'mesh' polo from Royal Robbins with the embroidered hiker on the chest.
When PC's came out, spent hours on the web searching for light mesh polos with no luck. What is called mesh now still has some advantages, but is nothing like the loosely woven material of yesteryear.

Can't comment on your science; but what I liked so much about these garments was the comfort and wide temp range. They were airy and cool on hot days; but when the mountain air got cold, just the addition of a windshirt over them warmed me up faster than anything else, and remained very comfortable during exertion. They also provided great comfort and warmth for weight under GTX shells for rainy hiking.

'Fashion trumps function,' was the comment made about the demise of true mesh on this site several years ago. The much denser polyester mesh sold today isn't bad, but doesn't hold a candle to the earlier stuff.

Maybe your article will encourage some product redevelopment. Hope so.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: fishnet on 11/14/2012 20:16:09 MST Print View

owfinc.com, questoutfitters.com, and thru-hiker.com sell mesh - you could make something

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Traditional Base Layers are Best on 11/14/2012 20:34:28 MST Print View

In 1969 Colin Fletcher spent two pages extolling the virtues of fishnet underwear in the Complete Walker)pp 199-200). In 1984 (Complete Walker III), he went into more detail on how it works along with comments on other materials like Polypro. Also both editions have some firsthand anecdotal comments about the WWII British connection (as stated earlier).

I have been using a fairly wide mesh shirt since the 80's (REI brand). At one time I had a dozen, but 10 of them wore out over time. I currently have a sleeveless and a short sleeve with a snap 1/4 top. They breath extremely well in desert heat and work well under other layers. Made from 100% polyester. The material is somewhat thicker than most baselayers we see today. Very comfortable under pack straps.

So I guess we can call this a traditional base layer.

REI Mesh Shirt
Close up of REI mesh shirt.


Super close up of mesh material.
Super close up of mesh material.

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/14/2012 20:44:10 MST Print View

I used a fishnet top in the 70s, but under a long underwear top.

And since no one else will say, I'll sae it - Ike's post is the clear winner in this thread!!

Michael Cheifetz
(mike_hefetz) - MLife

Locale: Israel
controlling sweat by activity level on 11/15/2012 06:19:29 MST Print View

@RJ - many people talk about controlling sweat by changing activity level (among other options like taking off layers etc)....how does that fit with daylight and the time you have to hike a given trail...

I know that for me (and i am by no means super fit or a hiking guru or anything) i need to keep on pushing (especially if its uphill) to make good time to be able to hike longish days...especially since i tend to hike off season (in autumn) when trails are many times timed for peak season sunlight

do you REALLY slow down just in order not to sweat - even though from a fitness perspective you could push on???

Mike

WV Hiker
(vdeal)

Locale: West Virginia
US Dealers on 11/15/2012 06:27:37 MST Print View

I looked into sourcing the Brynje after the article a few days ago on baselayers. Reliable Racing seems to be the only US distributor but they only carry the synthetic versions not the wool. I did find a Canadian distributor - Chromasport Canada, that apparently has the entire line. Their website is not fully functional but I've read that you can email the contact person and they will happily work with you.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: US Dealers on 11/15/2012 10:55:03 MST Print View

Reliable racing has them on sale but only has small size available.

Bjørn Grenness
(Fimax)
Norwegian webshops on 11/15/2012 14:30:39 MST Print View

You can buy Brynje from Norwegian webshops, but its pricy. One example;
http://sportsnett.no/s/i.aspx?aid=74

http://sportsnett.no/s/p.aspx?pid=5039&cid=243
http://sportsnett.no/s/c.aspx?cid=412

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Earlier Thread on 11/15/2012 17:08:04 MST Print View

I did send a polypro top to Vic Hines in 2006 to try. Didn't hear back on how it worked.


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=2990

Edited by oware on 11/15/2012 17:08:43 MST.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
wiggys on 11/15/2012 17:10:32 MST Print View

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=35

Haven't tried them.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: wiggys on 11/15/2012 20:01:10 MST Print View

David,

I ordered one from Wiggys. Thanks.

Gustav Bostrom
(gusbo) - MLife

Locale: Scandinavia
Aclima Woolnet on 11/16/2012 02:40:46 MST Print View

Nice to see that fishnets gets some attention. I've tried many a baselayer, but these are by far the most comfortable I have tried for high activity. My main reason for choosing fishnets both for summer and winter is not saving weight, the total weight is higher. The reason is comfort. I feel so much drier in these clothes. It's worth the extra weight.

In summer I use a nylon shirt on top of a synthetic short sleeve Aclima net (I like to have shirt pockets and it's cooler than a windshirt.). In winter for cross-country skiing I use another layer on top, or if needed due to exertion just the fishnet under a jacket.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: what's old news is new again ! on 11/18/2012 18:04:02 MST Print View

"Bennett" liked fishnet too.

Going commando too

Buck Nelson
(Colter) - MLife

Locale: Alaska
Great article on 11/20/2012 08:48:33 MST Print View

I had fishnet long underwear top and bottoms that I used off and on for years. Good job explaining the pros and cons.

To me fishnet can be a good choice when I expect to be soaked. The set I had was not as comfortable for backpacking because it would chafe under the shoulder straps. I suspect there are more comfortable weaves and materials now. For something like thru-hiking fishnet would not be my choice. I often wear my base layer as my only layer and then conventional is the way to go. I can only imagine how long it would take to hitch into town wearing fishnet long underwear with shorts.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
aclima on 11/20/2012 10:34:42 MST Print View

I got ahold of the Canadian distributor of Aclima and inquired about their wool net pieces- she sent me a price of $117 for the zip neck top and $107 for the crew- I'm assuming that's w/o shipping as well.

Needless to say I'll stick w/ my Merino 1 for the time being :)

Bradley Thomas
(bthomas) - MLife

Locale: Mid Atlantic
Possible UK dealer on 11/20/2012 11:50:34 MST Print View

Excellent and enlightening article. Glad to hear that this technology has been around, and is established or accepted in Europe. A fact that lead me to do some quick googling, the end result of which was the discovery of: http://www.nordiclifeuk.co.uk/

This would appear to be an viable option for us English speaking Yanks. The Super Thermo Shirt LS including shipping to the US comes to £45.00 ($71.64)! I've never ordered from them personally, but my experience with UK retailers/distributors/outfitters in the past has always been excellent. Perhaps if I manage to raise some extra holiday spending money I'll put in for a shirt and pants set. The looks I would receive from my fellow backpackers would be priceless.

Yuri Pinsker
(ypinsker) - MLife
Nordic Life on 11/20/2012 15:05:15 MST Print View

Update: for anyone interested, these appear to be available at NordicLife.co.uk with reasonable shipping rates to the U.S.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Great article on 11/20/2012 16:19:34 MST Print View

"I can only imagine how long it would take to hitch into town wearing fishnet long underwear with shorts."

I think the bigger concern would be who stopped to pick me up. ;0)

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: wiggys on 11/21/2012 19:23:04 MST Print View

I've used my Wiggys top for a couple days now and have been quite pleased. I used them working in the yard (fishnet+polypro+windbreaker or raincoat) at 40 degrees F with and without heavy rain and also at the gym (with cotton T over them). In all situations I felt warmer than I would have without them.

My large size is made of nylon and weighs 9+ ounces. So the question that remains "is this the best bang for the 9 ounces". In other words would I have felt as warm with 9 ounces of something else (e.g. a second polypro pullover). Don't have the answer to this question.....yet.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Fishnet Warmer? on 11/21/2012 19:43:54 MST Print View

When used as a base layer, there is no difference between fishnet and any of the other common knits relative to your core temperature. The only difference is in the perception of moisture on your skin surface.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Fishnet Warmer? on 11/22/2012 08:33:30 MST Print View

Richard

"When used as a base layer, there is no difference between fishnet and any of the other common knits relative to your core temperature."

Not sure how to interpret this statment. Could you elaborate?

Does it refer to the insulating value of the garment? If so, does this assume that the base layer is covered by other clothing. Worn alone it is hard to believe that a garment with mostly holes in it (fishnet) would be as warm as a knitted garment of the same weight.

Thanks,

Daryl

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Fishnet Warmer? on 11/22/2012 11:02:16 MST Print View

Daryl,

Yes, all five base layer knits tested had the same breathable layer over them (BDU). They were tested using a wide MET range in cool weather. Although the testers perceived differences in the way they felt, core temperature instrumentation showed 0 difference for the five common base layer knit types (1 by 1 rib, fleece, fishnet, interlock, and double layer rib using polypropylene).

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Re: Fishnet Warmer? on 11/22/2012 13:29:55 MST Print View

Richard,

Thanks.

Very helpful.

Daryl

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/22/2012 13:56:01 MST Print View

So Richard Nisley. Would you say use what you have/like as they all work pretty much the same?

Edited by kthompson on 11/22/2012 13:56:42 MST.

a b
(Ice-axe)
Re: Re: Re: Fishnet Warmer? on 11/22/2012 23:43:17 MST Print View

Good Evening Richard,

What activity levels were the particpants in your study subject to?

In your opinion which garment would hold more moisture after an extended level of activity and what effect would this have on body core temperature after ceasing activity?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/24/2012 22:44:52 MST Print View

Ken,

Fishnet is a 90's technology that still works adequately. Power Dry High Efficiency is currently the leading base layer for moisture management.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 11/24/2012 22:58:23 MST Print View

Thanks Richard.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fishnet Warmer? on 11/24/2012 23:08:30 MST Print View

ab,

They were in a climate lab using ergometers. The temp was 5c (41F) with a sustained 2 mph wind. They did two 7 MET heating cycles and 2 cool down cycles per test. The only variable was the knit types. The material types were polypropylene for all knits. This test was for all common knits in use during the 90's. Fishnet did the best job of skin surface moisture handling but the core temp curve was the same for all knits at the same point in the test cycle.

Current technology testing generally shows that Power Dry High Efficiency is the best moisture management base layer material. I am trying to stay out of trouble and so I won't mention the worst garment type for holding moisture. I will give you a hint though; it is a material problem rather than a knit problem; and Natick Labs expressly prohibits its use in any ensemble layer.

My original post on this thread was only meant to clarify that underwear per se merely occupies a portion of the still air layer, and, therefore, the nature of underwear has little to do with the over-all thermal insulation, although these results may be independent of subjective comfort.

Edited by richard295 on 11/25/2012 07:52:35 MST.

Rhodri Lewis
(rhodrigeo)
Re: Re: US Dealers on 12/04/2012 06:35:13 MST Print View

Hi Rhodri Lewis here from Nordic life in the UK. We are currently servicing the US (as requested by Brynje), as there is currently no importer. Reliable Racing have done this in the past, but according to Brynje, have not purchased any new stock for about two years. We have serviced some members of this forum and are now set up to service the US. We have reduced are shipping rates also to help out a little. Feel free to email any questions.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: US Dealers on 12/04/2012 07:59:32 MST Print View

Now all you have to do is provide email address

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fishnet Warmer? on 12/04/2012 17:57:53 MST Print View

"Current technology testing generally shows that Power Dry High Efficiency is the best moisture management base layer material."

Based on my individual experience with the Cap 4 Hoody, worn next to skin, in some very high moisture producing situations, I can confirm that. The stuff is simply the best moisture mover I have ever experienced.

Rhodri Lewis
(rhodrigeo)
Re: Re: Re: Re: US Dealers on 12/05/2012 06:58:23 MST Print View

Jerry. Apologies. email@nordiclife.co.uk , web address is www.nordiclife.co.uk
Cheers

Ian Clark
(chindits) - MLife

Locale: Cntrl ROMO
Re: Re: Re: Fishnet Warmer? on 12/12/2012 09:28:05 MST Print View

Richard,

PM inbound for your thoughts on the base layer of choice and proper wear of insulating layers with plate carriers and IOTV now that there use is required OCONUS and even live fire training CONUS.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
fishnet costs on 12/12/2012 12:33:30 MST Print View

maybe BPL should think about becoming a dealer??? the costs for the merino fishnet stuff purchased overseas (or Canada for that matter) is borderline criminal- $100 for a crew neck, $135 for a zip neck- eek!

Jim Sweeney
(swimjay) - MLife

Locale: Northern California
importing fishnet on 12/12/2012 12:58:07 MST Print View

Europeans often complain that items made in Europe are cheaper here than in their country of origin, perhaps because of greater purchasing power/distribution efficiency. Ideally, a US distributor would take this line on.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: importing fishnet on 12/12/2012 13:01:10 MST Print View

^ agreed, maybe BPL would like to get back into the merchandise business? :)

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Ordered some on 12/15/2012 13:49:32 MST Print View

I ordered a top and bottom from Nordic Life. Shipping to US was 6 pounds (about $10).

Won't arrive until January.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Ordered some on 12/15/2012 16:17:18 MST Print View

curious- did you order the syn or the wool?

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Ordered some on 12/15/2012 16:26:53 MST Print View

I went for the synthetic (polypro?).

I'm a heavy sweater in a wet environment (Pacific Northwest of US) and like clothing that dries quickly.

I've also bought a nylon fishnet top from Wiggys and really like it. I'm ordering the polypro to save a few ounces.

Edited by lyrad1 on 01/17/2013 08:40:10 MST.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Also works well for shopping on 12/25/2012 10:22:58 MST Print View

here

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Also works well for shopping on 12/25/2012 10:58:59 MST Print View

Daryl,

You need to edit your post. WalMart shoppers are a different breed than normal shoppers.

Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa)
Re: fishnet costs on 01/17/2013 07:40:51 MST Print View

Seriously. The shipping charged by aclima stockist is unreasonable.

Tjaard Breeuwer
(Tjaard) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota, USA
Brynje review on 01/22/2013 15:18:04 MST Print View

Hi
I just got my Brynje set from Nordic Life and wanted to let you know about fit, since if you live in the US you will have to mail order this.

I got:
Bottoms: Longs wool fine mesh. size M
Waist seems true to size and comfy brushed elastic waist band. Snug fit around the legs, and I don't have big legs. Quite long. Cuffs seem like ~220g/m2 wool.
These are indeed a fine mesh, similar to what you used to see in sportswear in the past.


Top:
Woolmesh zip polo with inlay. size L.
Very trim fit, close to body and arms, similar to my Odlo shirt(L). sleeves seem very long when you put it on, but ride up, probably because it has low stretch.
The collar on this shirt is very tall, as you can see in the picture. Even when folded over, it is still at least as tall as the collar on most other zip-necks I own.
The collar is very tight. I have a skinny neck and it is tight for me. I will try to stretch it out and see how it ends up.
The collar and cuffs are thick fabric, again guessing ~ 220g/m2, doubled over. I cut one layer of the collar fabric away, and that made it comfortable for me, with a tall and skinny neck(shirt 16").

I never noticed any dampness like I have with regular merino shirts, so the mesh seems to be working in that regard.

Edited by Tjaard on 02/26/2013 11:00:14 MST.

Rob P
(rpjr) - M
Aclima Woolnet on 01/23/2013 09:23:06 MST Print View

I was very interested in the timing of this article, as I had just placed an order for some Aclima Woolnet and Coolnet items. I have been doing some experimenting with different layers the past two evenings on my evening walks around the neighborhood...I usually walk far enough and fast enough to work up a sweat by the time I get home.

At any rate, the temperatures the last two evenings have been similar (last night when I went for my walk it was 5F, with a -10F windchill, and the pevious night was several degrees warmer, but windier, so I'm pretty sure the windchill was lower).

Two nights ago, I layered as follows:

Aclima Woolnet Longsleeve shirt
Patagonia 3 Midweight Merino Zip Neck Long sleeve
Patagonia R1 Full Zip Fleece
Arcteryx Squamish Hoody windshirt
Western Mountaineering Flash XR Jacket.

By the time I got home I felt clammy. I unzipped as soon as I started to feel hot, but I still felt clammy.

Last night, I layered as follows:

Aclima Woolnet Longsleeve shirt
Patagonia R1 Full Zip Fleece
Eddie Bauer First Ascent Cloud Layer Fleece pullover
Arcteryx Squamish Hoody windshirt
WM Flash XR Jacket.

As you can see, I eliminated the Merino zip neck layer between the Woolnet and the R1, and I instead added another Fleece on top of the R1.

This was much more comfortable...I did not feel clammy at all, even though I was warm when I got home. I know it seems like a lot to wear, but I was not wearing a pack, I was just on a walk around the neighborhood...with a pack, I probably would be carrying the down jacket in the pack instead of wearing it.

Anyway, I just wanted to post this in case anyone might find it helpful.

Tjaard Breeuwer
(Tjaard) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota, USA
Updated fit report of Brynje on 01/25/2013 21:23:16 MST Print View

In my first post I stated that the Brynje long sleeve zip had very long arms. I will add that they end up riding up in use. Though they are quite long when I put the shirt on, after a while outside I end up with a wrist gap. This was the case even while gently DH skiing, so not with any vigorous arm movement.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Brynje + Float Coat on 01/31/2013 12:49:55 MST Print View

My main coat for backpacking is an old closed cell foam float-coat from a second hand store. I have been using the Brynje polypro top under it this week. Temps in the 40s, moderate exertion yard work, light drizzling rain.

The fishnet feels much better under the float coat than my solid base layer tops for all the reasons we have been discussing here.

The Brynje polypro fishnet will definitely be the primary base layer on my next backpack.

On the negative side I find this stuff smells bad after even 1 hour of use. Could be a personal issue. I sweat and stink more than most normal people (I know, who said I was normal).

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Updated fit report of Brynje on 02/02/2013 08:16:01 MST Print View

Tjaard,

Perhaps these would help?

Daryl

here

Edited by lyrad1 on 02/02/2013 08:17:03 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Updated fit report of Brynje on 02/02/2013 08:21:34 MST Print View

Fingerless mittens

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model on 02/14/2013 09:29:23 MST Print View

Here are a couple of observations from my wearing of the fishnet over the last few weeks, mostly working in the yard in Seattle with temps in the 30-50F range and some rain.

(1) The nylon Wiggys top stinks less than the polypro Brynje top.

(2) My favorite combo for either top is to pair it with a lightweight (about 3 ounces) nylon tricot T shirt. The stretchy T shirt really reduces the air movement around the fishnet holes and I feel much warmer than without the T shirt. The Brynje fishnet top plus nylon T shirt, together, weigh about the same as the Wiggy's top.

Photo

George Hartnell
(UncleGeorge)

Locale: Northwest Washington
Historical perspective on 02/28/2013 20:02:27 MST Print View

Years ago someone sold a fishnet set of long underwear. The only detriment was that the clothing was, ugh, cotton! However, I personally wore that outfit in difficult conditions for years whilst commercial fishing in addition to distance backpacking in the intermountain West. I've been waiting for someone to build another such outfit without the traits of cotton.

This fishnet underwear was outstanding. I sweat -- hard. The mesh not only keeps one warm in the cold, but, by the miracle of evaporation cooling, worn alone with no cover the fishnet also (subjectively) keeps the wearer cooler in heat! (Designers take note, this old product was cotton white -- good in direct sunlight.) Insulated by a cover, the evaporation at skin level during winter exertion is without parallel, in my experience.

I am thrilled that a newer version of this garment is in the works. Keep the mesh off the shoulders and pack hip-belt area, work with modern quick dry materials, and the outdoor world will beat a path to your door.