We have finished with the code writing required for us to install this update as Roger passed along to you in this post.

Here's the process from here:

1. Tonight, the forum privilege updates will be installed, and none of you should see any differences there, as this first change will be transparent to everyone.

Once those are installed, we're going to give it a day or so to make sure we didn't break anything, and proceed with testing the update.

2. Then, we will run a script that updates all previous users with a forum posting history to a new user type called "Forum Member" that will give them the ability to post to the forums again. This Forum Membership will be a new type of paid annual membership that will be required for posting in the forums. However, all previous forum posters (anyone who posted in the forums prior to the lockdown) will be grandfathered in for life and won't have to pay this fee, ever.

Once this script is run, we'll probably sit on things for a few days to deal with the inevitable flood of "what's my password?" etc. support issues from people experiencing login problems.

After we run it, I'll post again to this thread, and send an email to the general newsletter subscribers, so old forum members know that they can start posting again.

Thanks so much for your patience, and to those of you that sent me private emails, or posted words of support and encouragement on the forums - sincere thanks - your support and encouragement is GREAT fuel for us!

Sounds good, fingers crossed everything works out.

Glad to see some progress on this!

Nice!

Hey.. is Ken T. sleeping or something?

I'm here. Been spreading the news.

Pretty slick solution -- sounds like the next week or so will be a lot of fun!

Just a question. Not trying to start a fight or anything... Will this update work in with your worries about being able to modernize the whole site, or will that be something in the future? I take it right now you're focusing on the membership issue and not the whole site issue?

Thanks Ryan! GOOD JOB!!!

The idea of charging a $5 membership just for the priviledge of posting on your forums is an absolute fail.

The idea that you are collecting money for *entirely* reader generated content is wrong. If you want to claim that this will only cover running costs, then this is covering some huge inefficiencies. Hosted forum packages, with a modern interface and features can be had with starting packages $10-20 a month, see https://www.phpbb.com/hosting/, and these cover tens of thousands of page views per month.

To add insult to injury your bespoke forum package is clunky and painful to use in comparison to any hosted solution, and the spamming issue which triggered this shows it's now entirely a liability.

Right now I'm embarassed to be posting with a life membership next to my name, if I could switch my membership to an article only, no-forum account, I would. The articles here are still worth the price of admission, and I think payment for these is a fair model. The forums - absolutely not, all you will do with this is kill them and leave a residual echo box for a small number of active posters.

Edited by adrianb on 11/09/2012 05:30:36 MST.

Adrian +1

You've been right all along. Years now.

Here is a word from RJ circa 2004

Status of the Forums @ BPL.com on 12/01/2004 23:52:05 MST
Welcome to - and enjoy - the new forum interface. Please be patient as we continue to develop this interface. We opted to develop a new solution from scratch rather than use existing forum software modules - some of which are extremely good from both a usability and visual standpoint. Over the long term, however, we want to make sure that every new function we bring to BPL.com is seamlessly integrated with the rest of the Website. The forums are an example - the current software gives us the ability to capitalize on editorial staff, Premium Member, and registered user priveleges to define forum priveleges. This would not have been possible with off the shelf software packages without a lot of code modification, and very extensive testing for code robustivitiness (ha - there's a new word) to ensure that it did not negatively impact the code on the rest of our site. So, enjoy the simple interface for now, and look forward as we evolve our forums into a full-fledged and feature rich interface.


Yeah, OK sure.

Have something to add? Read this thread and see if you question. comment has been address years ago.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=8829

Edited by kthompson on 11/09/2012 07:09:11 MST.

I don't believe than there will be a drastic effect...definitly not negative.

I was gifted my first membership by Ryan. I purchased a life membership because I saw the value in it: Knowlegable people suggesting techniques and gear for light backpacking. Well thought out answers to technical questions that many don't realize there was even a question about. Obscure, yes.

"The forums - absolutely not, all you will do with this is kill them and leave a residual echo box for a small number of active posters."
Maybe. But more people like Ryan, Roger, Will, Chris, and other like minded individuals will be drawn. Peer reviews of articles. Quality over quantity. This is a GOOD thing, except when it comes to making money. Teaching/publishing what *is* known can be an arduous and costly task. Without students teaching becomes worthless. Quantity over quality is equally a GOOD thing. It is just as important to support the site. A difficult balancing act for all involved.

Let's not make the overall site maintenence an issue. My only interest is light weight packing, ergo, maintaining this site for that purpose. The BPL Staff have done a good job despite reducing the overall number of posts recently. I have learned a lot here, and, I look forward to learning more. I really don't care how they manage things. I *do* want BPL to continue to supply good indepth articles with a chance to discuss them. If that means free forum access, fine. Spammers have shown the difficulty in maintaing free access, though.

@Miguel -- over the long term, we are certainly going to have to move to a more scalable platform. This move is intended to get us back on our strategic track as what has been communicated in the past few MLIFE newsletters. In the meantime, we are certainly exploring how to move forward with a new platform.

Let me be a little more constructive.

First let me clarify, in my mind the forum is quite separate to the main paid BPL site, I have no problem with paid access to the published content, which I think is a good model and excellent value. But the forum is entirely community driven, putting pay barriers up to this will break it (or change it beyond recognition). I don't buy the idea that restriction to members might improve the quality, like any online community there is a critical mass which can rapidly move en masse somewhere else. People will go where the conversation is, there's nothing to stop us all hanging out at at the whiteblaze UL forum tomorrow.

And even a nominal fee will drive off people, partly because of the hassle, but also because many people object to paying any amount for some things, on principle, because it transfers ownership from the community to the host. If you had to pay $5 a year to a company to edit wikipedia, it never would be where it is now. And what is BPL providing for that $5? A platform to communicate with others? The internet has many many places for this where you pay nothing. The argument that you need paid memberships to avoid spam is bunk, there are innumerable non-pay forums which surmount this issue without paywalls.

I suggest again that BPL take inspiration from the packrafting forms: create a separate hosted backpackinglight forum, sponsored and branded by BPL, but a free and open discussion space open to all. The traffic and interest generated into the main paid for published BPL content should provide some return for very minimal hosting costs. If that's not enough, put up a donation system and make the donation account transparent and clearly separate to any commerical BPL accounting. The advantage of having a non-profit open forum is that you can do this. I would happily donate $20 for example, whereas I wouldn't pay a mandatory $5 membership fee - can you understand the difference?. Similarly, you could pursue getting unpaid volunteer work for migration of this forum database over to a modern system - if you have to do that for your paywall forum attached to a commerical site with membership fees, you'd be expected to deal with that yourself, out of your pocket.

The alternative will be ending up with a much smaller member only discussion space for those who've paid for BPL membership for the published content. With respect to all of these people, I don't want to spend time in a smaller exlusive member only set. There are a ton of good contributions on here from non members, you can grandfather them in now, but that's just going to slow the fade, because what about the next 10 years of people who you might have had on here that you won't see now?

Adrian
OK, this is my own personal reply, not a reply as a Staff member.


Geez Adrian, where have you been for the last week or two???
BPL and many, many other open Forums have been hammered by a wave of spam from the recently updated Xrumer spamming SW system. Absolutely inundated. We are talking here about waves of up to 300 spams per day (or more maybe).

Now, the business model for the spammers is about $1 per 1000 spam postings. Yeah, they have to really flood the place to get paid. And they do. Well, their bots do: it's all automated stuff with no humans at the keyboard.

So if we charge a nominal $5 fee to be able to post, how many of them are going to pay that do you think? I would hazard a guess that there will be zero. And if any of them do, rest assured they will be chopped fast and lose their money. This is not a money-raising exercise: every current registered reader is being grandfathered in for life. It's a spam filter.

Yes, it is money. But what other way is there of blocking the tsunami? If you can think of one which does not involve a large number of full-time paid moderators (which none of the free open non-advertising Forms can afford), please let us know! (If it involves a dark alley and a set of knuckle-dusters, be my guest.)


Cheers

It will be interesting to see how many old nonpaying members come back (I know that a number have become active on other forums and have most definitely expressed how unhappy they are with BPL) and how many new members will be willing to pay the $5 just to use the forum. I guess time will tell! I'm not as skeptical as Adrian, but I'm not optimistic, either.

What would it take in the way of code changes for that $5.00 to include access to one article per year? That might act as an incentive to join with full membership, especially since there are hardly any free articles any more to entice forum-only members to join.

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/09/2012 14:46:23 MST.

>So if we charge a nominal $5 fee to be able to post, how many of them are going to pay that do you think?

Sure, this will stop the spam. So would powering down the server though.

>every current registered reader is being grandfathered in for life

Short term fix only though, you always need new people.

>BPL and many, many other open Forums have been hammered by a wave of spam from the recently updated Xrumer spamming SW system.

Are all open forums switching to pay walls too ? Are *any* of them?

BTW Roger, I do appreciate the manual work you've put in dealing with this.

It's $5, not a car payment and provision is being made to grandfather in the previous contributors, why all the angst? As far as the constant doom and gloom, that is something that BPL has to assess over time, right now this speculation is being done without any knowledge of membership rates or trends. I tend to believe in real data more than hyped up speculation and the only people with actual data are the BPL managers that own and operate the site.
Ron

> Sure, this will stop the spam. So would powering down the server though.
Er yes, I guess so.
One option leaves everyone able to read the Forums though.

> Are all open forums switching to pay walls too ? Are *any* of them?
Frankly, I don't know. I would appreciate (and so would Ryan I am sure), ANY info about other solutions from other open Forums which are working!

Cheers

>It's $5, not a car payment and provision is being made to grandfather in the previous contributors, why all the angst?

As I've tried to point out, it's not the amount, it's that even a nominal amount like this will drive many people away. Grandfathering in all the existing members works well to keep them on board, and in the short term, but what about all the new members over time?

>As far as the constant doom and gloom

I'm only objecting because the community here really is that good, and I don't want it to disperse.

And let me stress again, I'm only objecting to the direction of the forums, not the overall site. Some of the published material this year I think has been outstanding (I just reread the integrated stove article, and went and bought a Jetboil). Roger Caffin's articles alone are worth the price of admission.

Edited by adrianb on 11/09/2012 16:40:38 MST.

Great to hear about the changes.

I am sure that there are going to be a number of people who will be upset about the $5 fee to post.

I hope that it works out for Ryan and BPL as a source of income.

For those who are up in arms about the $5 fee....think of all of this as one big beta test.

Sure that it is never easy to run a business.

BPL/Ryan has to walk a fine line between being an online charity being free for everyone and trying to pay the bills but not "selling out" and having tons of ads on the site.

Bottom line, it takes money to keep the lights on.

If Ryan put a bunch of prominent ads in here, I am sure a whole bunch of people would be up in arms over that.

It is a balancing act and if the $5 fee does not work out, then Ryan can always chose to change or eliminate the need to pay for the ability to post on the forums.

The forums are great, but the biggest issue is that the forums clearly undercuts the value of buying a membership...simply because people on the forums are great and generous in passing along information that would often be found in the articles included in the paid membership.

I think that it is a great idea to try to see if the $5 charge works.

If not, then it can always be changed back to the way that it was before.

Odd thing about the internet....it is the only place that I know of where people staunchly believe that things should always be free.

-Tony

"I would appreciate (and so would Ryan I am sure), ANY info about other solutions from other open Forums which are working!"

-------------------------------------------



Here is one at the bottom of this post.

The site was started 10 years ago after a similar site instituted PAY to post membership requirement. The PAY to post site also offered a store and a print magazine.

When the new FREE site opened up, the majority of the membership jumped to the new site.

Over time the PAY to post site diminished and was eventually bought by the mentioned FREE site.

The site topic is Tent Trailers. Pretty small niche in the camper world. A vastly smaller number of tent trailers are sold each versus the number of UL packs!

As to Ryan being interested - I doubt it. When he ways exploring was to make BPL work a couple years ago, I PM'd him, offering to put him in touch with the owner of the FREE tent trailer site. Never heard back from him.

BTW, this site has been expanding its offerings during the economic turn-down.

popupexplorer.com

Edited by ngatel on 11/09/2012 17:23:49 MST.

"Thanks Ryan! GOOD JOB!!!"

+100!!! Simple, effective, and to the point. I do confess to being mystified at the carping about charging a $5 SPAM deterrent fee for new registrants as a bridge solution. Especially without any better solutions on offer.

NM

Edited by dillonr on 11/10/2012 06:39:10 MST.

Still free at other forums. We did this to ourselves, the forum users. Keep on saying that the real value here at BPL is in the forums. Many have said that they don't get value out of the articles here. So what is RJ going to do?, capitalize on that and turn it into something he can charge for. Like the strategic planning "retreat".

And had the MLifers been receiving the interim reports and updates of BPL, like we paid for, this might have all been prevented if someone did not have a colossal ego and could accept help from a community that offered it time and time again.

Sad to see this.

Cynical. Oh well It's how I think.

Prove me wrong.

Edited by kthompson on 11/09/2012 19:38:30 MST.

From Ryan's first post above:
"However, all previous forum posters (anyone who posted in the forums prior to the lockdown) will be grandfathered in for life and won't have to pay this fee, ever."

I might be wrong but i think that means all the previous free members will be let back in free.

The $5 charge will only affect newly registering members.

So in effect BPL will be right back to where we were before the spam debacle and everyone will be here; life, member, and free members will all be able to post free.

If the market will not bear new registrations at 5 dollars then time will certainly tell.

Has anyone considered the approach taken by Whiteblaze?
That site is free but donations are accepted.

What if BPL were to offer that $5 membership but and also solicit donations with a percentage of each going to trail protection groups like the PCTA, ATC, etc?
That way giving money to BPL would also mean giving money to the trails as well.

Might take the sting out of this whole mess and turn it around into something good for all.

"Still free at other forums. We did this to ourselves, the forum users. Keep on saying that the real value here at BPL is in the forums. Many have said that they don't get value out of the articles here. So what is RJ going to do?, capitalize on that and turn it into something he can charge for. Like the strategic planning "retreat".

And had the MLifers been receiving the interim reports and updates of BPL, like we paid for, this might have all been prevented if someone did not have a colossal ego and could accept help from a community that offered it time and time again.

Sad to see this."

What does this have to do with stopping the SPAM?

Well Tom. People saw problems coming for years. Some had offered help. Some don't even get a reply. Other forums continue on without charging, still during this global, all encompassing spam attack .

So charging to post must not be the only option.

And, please no need to yell spam, I'm tired too.

Almost forgot, Had the Mlifers received their info they would have been even better informed. And in a better position to help. Isn't that what that strategic planning forum is supposed to do? Solve BPL problems for Ryan? This would be a good one to solve.

Edited by kthompson on 11/09/2012 22:15:43 MST.

Good to see a solution chosen and now being implemented. While yes, there were dozens of different suggestions presented by dozens of different cooks in the kitchen, ultimately it's the BPL staff's decision and more importantly their name(s) on the line. One thing that I find comedic about the persistent haranguing and insistence that the community be allowed to help is that at the end of the day, if those same community people who opt themselves in decide "eh, f*ck this I don't want to continue for ______ reason" and leave, they've got zero to lose. Not reputation, not money, and only time that can't be that valuable because it cost absolutely nothing to anyone. And that's not even speaking to the quality of the suggestions, which in calling them all "quality" is a stretch. Of those people how many even have experience running a major forum much less a pay-for business?

Community efforts are fool's gold, and while appeasing to the mob mentality initially, in and of themselves it takes effort to organize the community which, in this case would certainly be more effort than simply using the resources at hand to come up with the best spit-balled solution. Let's "what if" though....

What if Ryan Jordan decides "yeah okay it takes a village." Then what? He has to get the word out, he has to organize and bring order to however many people wanting to do however many things, and then see it through. He has to decide which suggestions to follow, which to cull. Now you have people who are pleased and working, and a group of people who most definitely feel shot-down. It's a no-win situation. And again, if volunteers with no stake in the outcome other than not-being-butthurt decide to split, BPL is back to square one. Alternatively if someone in BPL follows one of those crap ideas through and it doesn't pan out, it's still BPL's fault in the end in the eyes of everyone.

Lastly, what's so wrong with the BPL forum software? You can post can't you? Hell you can even inline post images using plain old HTML, links too. The PM system is clunky but then again I only have to check my email to see who PMed me and it took me precisely 3 minutes to get accustomed. I've run several PHPBB boards (with your tax dollars paying me, US citizens) and I can tell you it's utter sh*t (too many poorly implemented features, not secure as you would like to dream, is difficult to modify lest you essentially rewrite entire portions of its business logic, and hard to administer, to name a few). Plus it's ugly.

My advice? F*ck it, keep on trucking BPL! Satisfy the majority (or even super-majority) of forum users as you're doing and go back to content creation because it's where the money is made and it's what keeps the lights on. Nowhere can you advertise "free forums now 100% Ken Thompson Satisfying and now extra-free!" and make MORE money. Or any money for that matter.

Edited by aeriksson on 11/10/2012 02:27:38 MST.

RJ has had legitimate offers from professional programmers that he does not have the courtesy to even reply. But hey, your the expert here now aren't you Alex? You've seen it all from day one. Thanks for singling me out.

'Satisfy the majority (or even super-majority) of forum users as you're doing and go back to content creation because it's where the money is made and it's what keeps the lights on."

Because the reader generated material on the forums makes no money. OOOPS! it does now.

I realize that no one solution will please everyone. But there has to a better one than this.

Continued remarks about BPL staff kills me. There is Ryan on payroll with sometimes help from the web intern. That's it. Roger C. does it free. Everyone else has jumped ship and don't even post here anymore
Carol, Jay, Don, Will and Janet, Chris, plus more have come and eventually leave for good.

Edit: One more thing. As BPLs favorite critic, Ryan expects this type of post from me.

Edited by kthompson on 11/10/2012 07:56:08 MST.

Going to go figure out what has happened to the engine management computer on my Dad's 2004 truck today.

Alex, you can help diagnose it.
Ken, you get to haggle with the parts house for the best price.

You both are quite remarkable people.

Keep it real fellas.

Cheers

Too funny a b. I was a Mercedes parts specialist for 12 years. The markup is insane.

Round and round and round and round and round and round we go.

Correction:

> There is Ryan on payroll
Ryan has not been on the payroll for some time now. He has a full-time outside job in order to support his family. GFC...

Cheers

Ken wrote: "Too funny a b. I was a Mercedes parts specialist for 12 years. The markup is insane."

That markup is compensation for putting up with the owners!

I sold auto parts for 25 years, but haven't leaned on a counter since 1995. I'd rather get a root canal without anesthesia ;)

You should try Peugeot for an interesting owner demographic.

>You should try Peugeot for an interesting owner demographic.

Hey now, what are you saying...

"And, please no need to yell spam, I'm tired too."

Then get some sleep and come back when you can answer my question: What does your rambling rehash of prevous whining about everything wrong with BPL have to do with the problem at hand?

Semantics Roger. He who pays the bills and has access to the bank account is on payroll. Many these days work two or more jobs to make ends meet, I do.

Edit: @ Tom. Later perhaps. Just got done with work and need to head off to the store. But really, you can't see how this all fits together after all the years you have spent here? Look at the forum admin. and support index and read some from way, way back and see what's changed.

@ Helwig, Some day in the mountains this will be so laughable.

Edited by kthompson on 11/10/2012 17:56:38 MST.

"But really, you can't see how this all fits together after all the years you have spent here? Look at the forum admin. and support index and read some from way, way back and see what's changed."

Slow child that I am, Ken, I can sort of see, dimly, what has changed, without even cheating by referring to the FA&S Index. What I can't see is how it relates to dealing with....SPAM.

Will this new user type "Forum Member" be able to create threads in Gear Swap? Could be an interesting incentive for newcomers to pay the $5...

"Will this new user type "Forum Member" be able to create threads in Gear Swap? Could be an interesting incentive for newcomers to pay the $5..."

Looks that way. Check the subscription page.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bpl_subscriptions.html

"@ Helwig, Some day in the mountains this will be so laughable."


Huh? I am usually huffing and puffing at altitude....rarely laugh...

If a pre-lockdown annual member lets their membership lapse is the logic there to downgrade them to a grandfathered forum member or are they spit out into the $5 a year group?

Would be interesting to compare new signups (and perhaps post count) ongoing to historical data to ensure the new policies are not shrinking the community.

If the goal was to stop spam why not a $5 one time forum registration fee? It seems punitive to the users to have a yearly fee when the intent was to stop spammers from registering.

Its unfortunate that non-monetary solutions were not used to resolve the issue. They are quite simple and effective.

I have no problem with the minor changes. This is the premier forum on backpacking, light or otherwise. The changes aren't onerous. But I'm sure for those that can't live with it, they'll be glad to start their own forum.

Safe and joyous hiking
JD

Steve Wrote:

"If the goal was to stop spam why not a $5 one time forum registration fee? It seems punitive to the users to have a yearly fee when the intent was to stop spammers from registering."

I agree.

What's the reason for a yearly fee instead of a one-time fee?

BTW i really hope the best for the future of BPL + forum! - one of the best places in cyberspace!

Edit: spelling

Edited by prse on 11/19/2012 14:07:06 MST.