I've never had reason to question my winter clothing system for Michigan's predictable winters. However, reading Dave C's recent article and some of the older links got me wondering if others were doing something radically different, particularly for harsher conditions.

Here is my system:

Wool base layer hoodie
R1 fleece pullover
Patagonia houdini
Once temps are below 20 F, these are worn almost all the time. Might take off the houdini if overheating.

Insulation:
Synthetic jacket (nanopuff)
Down sweater (skaha)
I'll wear the synthetic for light camp chores, and the down on top when at rest. Using two pieces allows me to extend the use of 3 season gear (ie too cheap to buy a proper parka), and gives me some flexibility with insulation for light activities or if getting too hot when sleeping.

Lower body:
Base layer and stretchwoven pants. Just about never need to modify this.

This system works well for Northern Michigan winters (consistently below freezing, no rain, lots of lake effect snow, not ridiculously windy), and I've been comfortable down to -20F nighttime temps. Just wondering what others are using and why. What is your proven system?

Ike-

My system is similar to yours.

Patagonia long sleeve cap 2 base
Patagonia R1 hoody
Patagonia Nano Puff
Stoic Vaporshell
Zpacks Goosedown Hood

Again, my setup is similar to Ike's.

120 g/m wool t-shirt
Cap 4 Hoody (which is absolutely brilliant)
Windshirt of one kind or another (I've got an old Epic shirt to which I'm going to add a fox fur ruff)
Tights
Softshell pants

When it's really cold I also bring a light synthetic puffy and a massive down jacket (MEC Reflex). The syn is good for moving when it's very cold, chores, and has the added bonus of keeping moisture which evaporates out of my clothing from getting into the down parka. I use Micropuff pants as well, the full side zips are very nice.

What initiated this thread was that old RJ article describing a 3 layer system consisting of vapor-rise, softshell jacket, and large synthetic puffy. Got me wondering if I was missing something. Is anyone using stretch woven shells or other protection heavier than a windshirt (for snow, not rain)?

For activity, my winter layering system looks like this:

Base layers:
1 pair heavy weight merino wool socks
1 synthetic bra/panties
1 pair quick-dry synthetic (nylon) pants
1 150 or 200 weight merino wool long sleeve shirt

Outer layers:
Windproof/water resistant snow pants (weight depends on activity and weather)
Windproof/water resistant shell (weight depends on activity and weather)
Vents are an absolute must- I won't buy outerwear that doesn't have venting. I also prefer built in gaiters on my pants.
Vest
Boots (type and insulation level depend on activity and weather)
Gloves (Arctery'x SV Alpha)
Beanie or light balaclava

I generally carry stuffed away in my pack a heavier 300 weight merino sweater, a puffy layer, extra socks, and a heavy weight balaclava also because I tend to not use a lot of layers when I'm moving actively. If I have to stop or hunker down for some reason, I want more layers to stay warm. If it's really cold I'll add synthetic long underwear bottoms to my base layers but my legs rarely get cold.

"What initiated this thread was that old RJ article describing a 3 layer system consisting of vapor-rise, softshell jacket, and large synthetic puffy. Got me wondering if I was missing something. Is anyone using stretch woven shells or other protection heavier than a windshirt (for snow, not rain)?"

The three layer system is exactly what I use in Colorado in the winter.

1] Base Layer - R1 Hoodie
2] Mid Layer - Soft Shell (Mammut Ultimate Hoodie)
3] Outer Layer - Heavy Insulation (First Ascent Igniter which has 100g of Primaloft)

This setup allows me to never have to exchange layers. The Mid Layer is only added when winds pick up or it's snowing or very cold. The outer layer only goes on when I am stopped or if the combination of wind and cold is significant.

"Is anyone using stretch woven shells or other protection heavier than a windshirt (for snow, not rain)?"


I do think for colder wind a heavier fabric which is less easily deflected can be good. The epic shirt I mentioned is an old Patagonia Essenshell which weighs around 9 oz stripped down. Under harsher conditions I prefer it to a standard ~4 oz windshirt.

my winter system is similar- cap 1 ls top, cap 4 hoody (this replaced my R1 hoody) and a windshirt for on the move (can shed either the windshirt or hoody depending on conditions)

softshell pants w/ cap 1 bottoms

insulation- if it's a little warmer, but on the wetter side I'll bring my nanopuff pullover, little cooler MB Alpine Light parka- really cold- both :)

I always carry a balaclava and over/under mitts, but typically wear a light beanie and light gloves on the move

My winter layers can vary quite a bit. As You've experienced before Ike, the weather in my neck of the woods can be quite variable, from warm and sunny to heavy, wet snow with a low ceiling. Lots of freeze/thaw cycles, so the ice creates a need for durability.

I have a "quiver" from which I choose pieces depending on expected conditions. My winter trips are usually shorter, 3-4 days, so I usually have very accurate forecasts at my disposal.

Tops:

--Cap 2 Longsleeve
--Cap 4 Hoody

I usually wear these if conditions will be below 40F

--Fleece vest WS front/100 wt back
--100 wt fleece pullover

I wear one or both of these as layering pieces when on the move in conditions from 25F-0F. The vest in particular is nice as it is effective when layered both over or under my windshirt.

--Houdini windshirt

Always. Most used piece of gear.

--Shell. About to order a Montbell Torrent Flier, 9 oz. Paclite, pitzips. Hope the hood works for me.

I always carry a hardshell in winter; it's not uncommon to have rain and temps just above freezing in my locale.

--Montbell Mirage Parka
--Arcteryx Atom LT Hoody

Haven't used the Montbell yet, hopefully it and the Atom in conjunction will provide me with lots of options.


Bottoms:

--Cap 2 briefs
--Cap 2 tights

Much like the tops, these are pretty much always worn if it's below 40F.

--Powerstretch tights

If it's going to be really cold, I'll use these instead of the Cap 2 tights.

--REI Sahara convertible pants

I wear these year round, they work well to cut wind, they're breathable and durable. I zip off the lower legs when it warms up, allowing my gaiters to keep my calves dry.

--Marmot Precip full-zip shell pants

Again, I always carry shells. These allow some venting and also make it easy when I'm wearing snowshoes or microspikes.

--Arcteryx Atom LT pants

I use these in camp and to supplement my sleeping bag, though the full-zips allow them to be used for layering. I've ner had conditions that cold, and don't want to!

Hey Mike M,

I'm curious. Your regular base system plus MB Alpine Light, how cold will you take that? I bought an MB AL this summer and wil use it during winter activities, but have yet to be in temps colder than low 40s with it.

I'm comfortable into the low 20's and probably even a little lower- that's w/ a base layer/midlayer/windshirt and appropriate head/hand/feet coverings- I run a little on the warmish side

if it's going to be colder yet, I'll throw in the nanopuff as well- I'll be honest if it's too cold, I usually elect not to venture out :)

Awesome, thanks for the info. Looking forward to using the jacket in some cold temps! (If they ever come, I'm in the Bay Area, and after a week of fall weather we're back to wearing tee-shirts.)

Mike, or anyone else for that matter,

How does layering your Micropuff under your MB Alpine Light work for compression of the garments? I think I read in the past you have a MB Exlight. I was wondering if the loft and compression of the Micropuff would be similar to layering the Exlight and Alpine Light the same way?

Thanks!

Nick- yup, both the exlight and nano are relatively thin and the Alpine Light is cut a little roomy, so it works very well for either. That's definitely something you do want to mindful of when combining insulating garments.

MIke

Thanks, Mike.

Planning on using my exlight and Alpine light in conjunction this winter. Was curious how the synth matched up. I get a little compression of the exlight in the sleeves but figure it's not enough to cause a lack of insulating value.

I think you'll have good luck w/ that combo :)

Patagonia Cap 3 upper.
REI polartec lower long underwear
Patagonia R1 (when moving and cold)
FA Serrano insulated jacket when in camp
Patagonia Torrent shell as my hard shell
Patagonia Torrent shell pants.


I think this should be fine for Oregon rain hikes and backpacking, however I haven't tried this combination yet.

my experience is that the thinner the base layer the better (this is the layer that has to move moisture), I have a few Cap 3 pieces and they are relegated to mid-layer duties

You mean something like silk weight caps?

I'm with Mike--you want something thin and light as your first layer regardless of season. I use a short sleeve tee as my first layer year round. I use merino 1 for cooler weather and Arcteryx Motus (similar to cap 1 but quite a bit more breathable) for warmer. You want your base layer to wick and dry quickly.

yup- anything on the thin side, the base layer isn't really about warmth- it's "job" is to move moisture- much easier to do when it's thin, also much is easier to dry when it's thin

when I'm snowshoeing I often am only wearing a silkweight top and a windshirt even into the 20's and very often I'll have the windshirt open to vent out

in the winter it's paramount to stay dry as possible- some of it's means appropriate layers; but a lot of it is technique- starting out a little on the cool side knowing that you're going to warm up, shedding layers before they get soaked, venting w/ your shell, taking hat & gloves on/off, slowing your pace if you're sweating too much (this is a tough one for a lot of us :))

Temp 350 - 400 F Layering Model

BLACK DIAMOND BEANIE (1.62oz)
ICEBREAKER 200 T SHIRT (0.3iclo)
PATAONIA R1 PULL-OVER (0.32iclo)
MONTBELL DOWN VEST (1.45clo)
MONTBELL TACHYON ANORAK PULLOVER WINDSHIRT (0.6iclo)
OR VERSAGLOVES (2.6oz)
DARN TOUGH (1714) 1/4 SOCKS (2.3oz/pr)
MT HARDWEAR CONVERTIBLE PANTS (14oz)


Temp 410 - 570 F Layering Model

BLACK DIAMOND BEANIE (1.62oz)
ICEBREAKER 150 WOOL LG. UNDERWEAR BOTTOMS (0.2iclo)
PATAONIA R1 PULL-OVER (0.32iclo)
MONTBELL TACHYON ANORAK PULLOVER WINDSHIRT (0.6iclo)
OR VERSAGLOVES (2.6oz)
DARN TOUGH (1714) 1/4 SOCKS (2.3oz/pr)
MT HARDWEAR CONVERTIBLE PANTS (14oz)

>>When I'm in a ACTIVE MODE, as in snowshoeing and xc skiing the layering is reduced to 150 weight wool Zip T Neck and wind shirt.
>>When I'm in a SEDENTARY MODE, as in a camp setting the high iclo clothing goes on...... NUNATAK SKAHA SWEATER (4.35iclo)(4.5oz/875fp/2.0oz overfill)& FEATHERED FRIENDS HELIOS PANTS (3.17iclo)(4.9oz/850fp) - (15.68oz)

Today's (29Oct2012) temperature was 36.70 F (Wind Speed if 14mph) when I left the house for a 3.1 mile walk and returned at a temp of 410 F. The Temp 250 - 400 F Layering Model above was themo-neutral (not uncomfortably cold or sweating).

Reviving this thread with a few questions....

Do you ever remove/change your baselayers (top and bottom) during a trip or do you wear them the whole time and only adjust the other layers over them as necessary?

Do you only bring hardshells if you're expecting cold rain or wet snow? If temps are well below freezing it sounds like the hardshell is not necessary for top or bottom?

For those that use insulated pants like the Micropuff, when you're in camp is the DWR good enough to prevent them from getting wet when hanging out in the snow? I'm planning on using them this weekend to supplement my sleep system and was originally thinking about layering rain pants over them in camp to keep them dry, but I get the impression that this isn't necessary. I will have a foam pad to sit on.

Chris,

I never remove my base layer. Swap out insulating and shell pieces as necessary.

I bring a 6 ounce WP/B rain jacket as a hard shell. I use it if the weather decides to be weird and I get wet precipitation. I also use it for wind blocking.

For pants, I've been using a pair of insulated Columbia pants. They're heavy, but really durable and WP/B. I don't have to worry about them getting wet from crawling under my tarp or hanging around camp.

I do not remove my base layer (and seldom remove my pants even to sleep), which is typically a pair of Patagonia running tights or if (relatively) warm, just stretch woven soft-shell pants. On top it's a long sleeve, white, some variant of a dri-fit top.

For the Bottoms, I will layer over teh tights stretch-woven soft-shell pants. On top, after my base layer would be a power stretch hoodie followed by an epic fabric hooded wind shirt or a wild things hooded insulight jacket. my goal is to be cold when starting-out and cool after 10 to 15 minutes of activity.

Depending on how cold and other conditions I follow-up with a pata micro puff pullover, wild things belay jacket or a FF hooded volant. Bottoms are OR neoplume pants. My last layer can fit over all my lower layers combined and are meant for when stopped.

I consider all of my layers with the exception of my last top layer as part of my sleep system.

I almost never bring hard-shell pants and seldom bring a hard-shell top. Most of my mid/outer layers are epic shelled and that gives me pretty good protection towards the higher end of water resistance.

Edited by RICKO on 01/10/2013 11:57:18 MST.

Here in California the conditions on a spring day can have an apparent temperature swing of 100F. I'm talking potential frostbite to heat stroke back to frostbite in 8 hours. At high altitudes, extreme solar radiation will bake and burn you, then when the sun goes down the temperature will drop 50 degrees in an hour. I finally seemed to have a system mostly dialed for a climb of Whitney last spring, where temps ranged from cool at the parking lot, to an apparent temperature (calm, intense solar radiation reflected off spring snow) of 80+, to single digits and windy on the summit. With an unlimited budget I would tweak this setup but not make major changes to the basic layering theme.

From the skin out- Top:
-Merino or Merino/Viscose blend T-shirt (about 200 gsm fabric)
-Railriders Regulator Wind Shirt. This shirt is 3 osy nylon which is wind resistant but breathes quite well- not nearly as wind resistant as a Houdini. It has zippered mesh side vents wrist to waist and high sun collar. Tan color. I sewed the rear yoke vent closed.
-Thin Merino Beanie. Keeps the sweat out of my eyes.
-Sunglasses
-Sun hat or climbing helmet.
-Lightly insulated leather gloves.
-Schoeller Dynamic pants (tough, stretchy, wind-resistant but breathe very well) (I wish they had thigh vents and were not black)
-Long Johns- none to either light 3 oz or heavy 6 oz grid Polartech PowerDry depending on what I expect conditions to be.

These first layers work well climbing up in calm to breezy conditions with extreme solar radiation. Say freezing/calm to 60F during exertion.

Cooler but still moving add:
-Fleece hoodie with thumbloops. If I expect it to be cold all day sometimes I put this under the Regulator shirt or leave the Regulator off. (Would like a Pat. R1 Hoodie but mine was only $25)
-Again, depending on expected temp I may add a long sleeve merino shirt or merino sweater vest ($5 at thrift store, Santorum style)
-Patagonia Houdini wind shirt if I'm sure there's no chance of liquid precipitation. Otherwise a Marmot Precip jacket.

At rest/backup warmth/extreme conditions:
-Puffy down jacket. (New Balance Fugu) I would rather have a hood.
-Lowe Alpine "Magma" Primaloft full-zip pants. Go right over the other pants without taking off boots.
-Thick fleece lined, shell outer "bomber hat". (Would prefer a good hood on the down jacket)
-Thick over-mittens, thin liner gloves.
-Windproof face mask & goggles.


Yes, there's some redundancy in this setup but the two wind-shirts are worth it in my mind. I have never found a puffy jacket to be comfortable on the move so I go with merino, fleece, and separate wind layers.

Thanks for the replies. Makes sense....looking forward to testing it out this weekend.

Winter Layering - Depending on conditions:

BASE LAYER>
1. Cabela's ECWCS Polar Weight Power Dry tops and bottoms (new, light, warm!)
or older polyester mid weight long johns, fleeced on inside.
2. polypro sock liners
3. thin polyester glove liners (for using camera)

MID LAYER(S)>
1. wool or acrylic sweater and...
2. down jacket, or Thermolite insulated jacket (& pants for camp)
3. neoprene VBL sox (seam sealed)
4. thick pile glove liners or fleece for less frigid temps

SHELL LAYER>
1. eVent rain parka or GTX mountain parka
2. GTX pants (single layer nylon or Thinsulate insulated for sub-zero)
3. NEOS overboots W/ felt packs & insole inside or Scarpa 3 B-C ski boots
NOTE: Both boots have removable liners to keep feet warm in tent & at breakfast.
4. GTX glove shell or GTX mitten shell

HEAD GEAR>
1. Everest fleece lined knit wool Peruvian style hat
2. light wool XC hat
3. light fleece balaclava for sleeping

Top:
One or Two UA Tees
OR Centrifuge
OR Helium II

MB UL Vest
MB Thermawrap Pro


Bottom:
UA 3.0 Grid Fleece
OR Foray

OR Neoplume pants

Accessories:
Marmot beanie
OR Ninjaclava
OR Metamorph Gloves (Liz Taylor Inspired)

As Tjaard said, I did not say WHICH of my "winter layers" I'd use because it all depends on the weather.

For example I'd wear light polyester long johns and the 2 layer nylon pants for warmer days - maybe even nylon summer hiking pants.

As it gets colder and/or windier I go to GTX clothes for my shell.

"Bitchy cold" (10F. down to zero F.)may mean 200 wt. fleece mid layer

For extreme cold (below zero F.) I would wear either Thinsulate insulated GTX ski pants or uninsulated GTX and Thermolite insulated mid layer pants under them.

Some days you want a light stocking cap, other days max warmth heavy hat and a face mask to avoid frostbite or for fast blowing snow, which also stings the face like he!!.

Some days light XC gloves, other days mittens and thick liners. In between, GTX glove shells & various weights of removavle fleece liners.

Typical northern MN/SHT daytime temps 0-25F

Top: 150-weight merino SS T-shirt, rab powerstretch half zip, Patagonia Houdini. I pack a Rab Neutrino Parka for camp, and a marmot essence rain shell (<7 oz). The Essence is helpful for extra wind resistance while moving if its really cold and for the worst conditions i can imagine: 33F and rainy.

Bottom: capiline boxers, cap 2 tights, softshell pants with gaiters. I also bring full zip synthetic puffy pants and full zip red ledge rain pants (see above).

Hands: Powerstretch gloves +/- big mitts clipped to my sternum strap. Extra fleece mitts in my pack.

Feet: liner socks, RBH vapor barrier socks, wool hiking socks and insulated Keen boots.

Head: varies: I pack a thin balaclava, a windproof balaclava and a fleece hat.

Pretty conventional, but so far this has worked great for me. I just add or peel off layers as needed without needing to stop to take boots off.

Matt

Edited by matt_f on 01/26/2013 23:56:47 MST.

Matt, are you warm enough touring-skiing in a short sleeve base layer, power stretch and windshirt at 0F?

I usually like a bit more than that for those cold days.

For example, last week, during the cold snap I did some track skiing at -5F, so much harder than I would for a full day/multi day trip, and I was just slightly to warm with my wool mesh long sleeve, power stretch top, Cioch jacket(equiv. to windshell + heavy baselayer). I would have been perfect at a touring pace(but i am not in good shape).

Edited by Tjaard on 01/28/2013 20:07:58 MST.

I have to agree that's got to be one of the scariest conditions to be out in

XC Skiing/hiking:

Base:
old, thin polypro top
boxer briefs - my legs are fine with these under Ferrosi pants down into the single digits.
liner socks


Mid, if necessary:
MH Desna Fleece
old, thin polypro long johns - single digits or lower
varried socks


Outer:
Powerstretch anorak
OR Ferrosi pants


Extra insulation:
Brooks Range primaloft jacket, no hood
Brooks Range 800 fill hooded anorak
Patagucci micropuff pants

Head:
Hats vary, usually light fleece. I always bring a buff and a thin balaclava if it's below 15f.

The powerstretch anorak might get retired soon. I'm sold on the breathability, wind resistance, comfort and water resistance of the Ferrosi pants, so I picked up the Ferrosi jacket yesterday. I'm pretty sure the primaloft jacket and Desna fleece are somewhat redundant. I really wish I could have the features of both in a light insulation layer. The hooded collar on the Desna zips up to my nose, sort of a built in balaclava, which I've found to be a really useful feature. It just doesn't cut the wind or shed rain like the primaloft jacket and isn't quite as warm. I think the primaloft will end up getting left behind on colder trips and brought along in place of down on trips above freezing. I did not include my glove layering system as I still haven't figured it out yet. My hands fluctuate wildly while skiing from roasting and sweating out my gloves to me trying to windmill while skiing to warm them up and back again. All in the span of 30 minutes. It's a little annoying. I'm used to doing most of my winter travel on bike, with pogies, which is simple and easy and works for me. I'm considering some light pogies for my ski poles.

I'm new here, my name's Sean. It didn't look like there was an intro thread, so I just figured I would throw that in.

*edited to add head gear

Edited by anrothar on 02/03/2013 09:54:55 MST.

Tjaard -

At 0 F I typically would start out wearing a SS base layer, power stretch, wind shirt, and light rain shell (marmot essence) as well as big mitts. Once i've been moving for ten minutes i can typically start to peel back layers, but it depends on wind etc. A couple weeks ago I was snowshoeing on the SHT in 5-10 F weather at the end of the day and had all of the above on but it was breezy, terrain was flat and i was a bit hungry, tired and mildly dehydrated. I find head insulation makes a huge difference. If I'm skate skiing all bets are off: i tend to sweat like crazy after about 10 minutes if i'm wearing what i would for typical snow shoe trips.

Glad to see more Minnesotans on BPL.

Matt

Edited by matt_f on 02/04/2013 19:12:15 MST.