Forum Index » Editor's Roundtable » Considering Minimalist Footwear for Backpacking


Display Avatars Sort By:
Bob Sher
(bsher)
Minimalist Footwear for Backpacking on 10/24/2012 11:21:40 MDT Print View

I am also surprised Merrell was left out of the article. They now even have a couple of Barefoot models with 4mm of cushioning. Combined with a pretty anatomical last, zero drop, decent tread on Vibram soles, and light weight, they should do well when compared to this group. The other surprising omissions are GoLite, and Vivobarefoot. GoLites are actually not as light as one would hope, but they have a lot of models that meet the criteria discussed. Finally, Vivobarefoot has a huge line of shoes to consider. No cushioning to speak of, as far as I know, and their Off Road models (in low or mid versions) are surprisingly heavy and narrow, but they have lots (too many, in my opinion) of trail models to choose from. Since embracing minimalist footwear, I have been very curious about this very topic, but don't have the $2000 to spare to do a thorough comparison of all the potential candidates. This article is at least a strong start. Thanks!

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Passing on drinking the Kool Aid on 10/24/2012 11:34:16 MDT Print View

Thanks for a thoughtful, reality-based article. THIS NEEDED TO BE SAID.

What Charles sed - I'll pass on the minimalist footwear unless I'm crossing a creek in my Croc knock-offs.

My 3 season backpacking shoes are:

1. Merrill Moab Ventilators (true shoes)
2. Merrill Moab Mid GTX (barely boots)

These are the lightest footwear that FIT properly, are DURABLE and PROTECT my feet.
Those three criteria must be met by footwear I use. I don't have foot problems and want to keep it that way.

** I have gotten the most comfort from using thin, heat-mouldable insoles.

At 69 I have lowered my pack weight to 30 lbs. with 5 days' food and 2 L. water. At that weight I NEED shoes that do not let my feet get beat up by stones and larger rocks. Been there with thinner soled shoes and won't do it again.

Yes, I'll probably eventually get a lighter pack than my current REI UL 60 and a lighter tent than my TT Moment. But for now they are "good enough".

Can't wait for lighter boot soles that are the equal of the lightest good soles available now.

Dennis Hiorns
(hanson)

Locale: Michigan
Merrell Trail Gloves on 10/24/2012 11:39:28 MDT Print View

Here's my experience:

I bought Merrell Trail Gloves (barefoot shoes) for running last Spring, and used them for my regular running routine (3-4 miles, 1-3 times per week). After a few months, I felt that I was used to them, especially because they were my "everyday" shoe as well as my running shoe.

Then I did a backpacking trip where we hiked about 15 miles on day one, and about 7 miles on day 2. I have a pretty light pack - about 15-20 lbs. By the time I got back, I couldn't walk upright for DAYS. My calf muscles were so tight they were like granite. I limped with discomfort for weeks afterwards, and I felt like my Achilles was stretched to the point of snapping. Because of this, I didn't run for months afterwards.

Like I said, I thought my legs were conditioned to the barefoot shoes. Until I read this great article, I couldn't understand why I had the problems that I did. I've since bought a dedicated pair of "minimalist" hiking shoes, which I've used with no issues. I've also gone back to the Merrell Trail Gloves for running, and I love them for that purpose. But I would definitely caution anyone thinking of using barefoot shoes for hiking...even if you think your feet are ready!

sean neves
(Seanneves) - M

Locale: City of Salt
Best article here in a long time on 10/24/2012 11:50:02 MDT Print View

Not because I agree or disagree with any of the points, just that it is challenging. I really hate having discussions in a vacuum (echo chamber). BPL is best when it brings new ideas to the table. It just so happens that these 'new ideas' are a rebirth of old ones.

My take: I did my first major haul with minimalist shoes this August in the Wind Rivers. Roughly 125 miles from Elkhart, south and over to the East side (Grave Lake), over Lizard Head and The Towers and on to Big Sandy with summits and 12-mile "layover" days in between. I started with a way-too-heavy pack, on account of my tendency to bring wine and good food for the first few days. Started at 48lbs and ended at 16, with a pound of food left over. I trained by taking starting early spring in some minimal shoes on short (sub-7) trail runs. I felt the pain. I then graduated to shorter (sub-5) backpacks with the same shoes. I felt the pain, but less so. By the time I hit the trail in the Winds, I felt strong and ready and my lower legs and feet felt bomb-proof. By day number 3, my Achilles started giving me major lip. The pain spread to the arches and north to the knee, I assume because I was then favoring the painful spot. I was worried about finishing because of the pain, but by day number 7, the pain gradually went away and off I went to the finish line. Don't know if my drinking a few liters of wine and whisky off my back played into that.

With that in mind, I will probably keep the minimal shoes for shorter jaunts. We lucked out and had 11 days of sunshine and then two days of intermittent showers, which is totally unheard of in the Winds. I feel that if we had seen any sort of bad stretch of weather, my feet would not have held up. I have noticed that faced with much water, my sissy shoes turn to mush.

Damien Tougas
(dtougas) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Gaspé Peninsula
Cushioning on 10/24/2012 12:05:16 MDT Print View

I tend to be in the same camp as Tjaard, I prefer a little stiffness over cushioning - all the cushioning I really require is achieved by a 4mm footbed. Stiffness will take the edge off the sharp things, especially noticeable when wearing a pack. I found the Altra Lone Peak to be a bit too much of both for me, and much prefer the Vivobarefoot Breatho Trail which has more flexibility and less cushioning, but just the right amount of protection. Conversely, even though the MT00 has more cushioning than the Vivo, it also is more flexible and I found it to offer much less protection.

Another thing worth noting (as Ryan mentioned) is that if you want to build foot strength off the trail, going barefoot and minimalist all day, every day will help a lot. If you wear minimalist shoes off the trail, wearing something more minimalist than what you wear on the trail should be considered as you don't have the pack weight to contend with.

Howard E. Friedman
(hefriedman)

Locale: New York/New Jersey
barefoot studies on 10/24/2012 12:06:14 MDT Print View

I wrote a short article exploring the topic of barefoot hiking for Trail Walker, published by the NY/NJ Trail Conference (http://www.nynjtc.com/files/trailwalker/2011/ja11.pdf -the article is on page 11). I cited four studies. One from Rush Medical Center reported a decrease in pressure on the knees when switching from thick heeled shoes to barefoot walking. This finding was corroborated by other researchers as well. Other studies, including the most well known by Daniel Lieberman from Harvard published in Nature a few years ago identified a significant decrease in force under the heel when running barefoot, in addition to a decreased stride length compared to running in traditional shoes.

But in an email exchange I had with Dr. Lieberman he did concede that even native barefoot runners when walking strike the ground with the heel first. So backpacking, which depends on walking, not running, may not accrue the same benefits from minimalist footwear as running does.

That being said, more recent studies have definitely measured a decrease in oxygen consumption for every 100 gm decrease in weight on the feet regardless of type of shoes worn, although the decrease in O2 has not been shown to be statistically significant in most studies. One study (Metabolic Cost of Running Barefoot versus Shod, Franz, Corbryn, et. al, Medicine and Science in Sports Exercise 2012) concluded that shod running has a lower oxygen consumption than barefoot running. Although two other studies concluded that minimally shod or barefoot runners are more "economical" in energy use or have a decreased "perceived exertion" rate (Perl, Lieberman, Effects of Footwear and Strike Type on Running Economy, Med Sci Sports Exerc, 2012, and Hanson, Berg et al, Oxygen Cost of Running Barefoot vs Running Shod, International Journal of Sports Medicine, June 2011).

So the benefit from minimalist footwear for backpackers will most likely come from the decrease in weight since walkers/hikers/backpackers are most likely heel striking anyway. And no study that I have seen with the exception of the ones detailing the cost of increased weight on oxygen consumption have been overwhelming in either direction. Some of the benefits are likely personal preference, like being able to feel the terrain better, and maybe even avoiding ankle sprains due to the increased proprioception of the ground.

I personally have had good results with FiveTen Guide Tennies which have a fairly low heel drop, are relatively light weight (1.5 lbs for men's size 10.5), have good traction and are re-soleable. And I have had a good experience running in New Balance MT100s. (And, I have experienced injuries in both pairs of minimalist shoes as well as in Vasque Sundowner boots!)

Richard Colfack
(richfax) - MLife

Locale: ARIZONA
Right on on 10/24/2012 12:29:59 MDT Print View

Thank you Ryan! Finally, an article that does not preach the wonders and miracles of "barefoot running and hiking". I've been waiting for this for a long time.

The most overused argument for barefoot shoes is humans evolved barefoot and therefore shoes are bad. We also evolved without penicillin, pants, cars, toothpaste, computers, toilets, chairs, and just about everything else. Cavemen lived to the ripe old age of how old? Or I hear anectodal evidence about the one guy finishing an ultramarathon barefoot therefore everyone should be able to run a ultramarathon sans shoes. Or, you need 3 months, 6 months, even 2 years of breaking in your feet before they will properly adjust to barefoot shoes and the large painful blood blisters will go away. If I left clothespins on my eyelids for 2 years I guess I would adjust to it, but that doesn't mean I want to.

I wonder how many pairs of Five Fingers are sitting unused in closets because reality for many owners has set in.

Ike Jutkowitz
(Ike) - M

Locale: Central Michigan
Going minimalist on 10/24/2012 12:43:24 MDT Print View

Thank you for a thought provoking article. It was interesting to note that some readers interpreted this as affirmation of, and others as condemnation of the minimalist movement. Although I did not agree with all conclusions, I thought it was a well considered approach to matching the level of foot protection to the anticipated conditions. Admittedly, as one whose running has benefited greatly from transition to minimalism, I tend to fall on the lesser side of that equation, with trail gloves (wide) as my preferred footwear for running, hiking, and daily life.

I was interested in your assessment of the Altra lone peaks. The new balance MT101 is my current compromise for times when I need a stiffer sole, or for winter conditions (sized up 1 1/2 sizes) in conjunction with snowshoes or crampons. Sounds like the Altras may fit my needs better in those situations. Thoughts?

Edited by Ike on 10/24/2012 16:24:25 MDT.

aarn tate
(aarndesign) - MLife
Re: Considering Minimalist Footwear for Backpacking on 10/24/2012 13:04:40 MDT Print View

Great article Ryan. Your insights should help manufacturers design better minimalist footwear for lightweight hikers.

The increase in forward lean when carrying a backpack, compared to normal walking is well documented. The increase is least when walking downhill, moderate when walking on flat ground and maximum when walking uphill. The faster you go, the more the forward lean. So when going from walking to running the forward lean will increase.

If we consider walking under load, the further the center of gravity of the load from is from your back, the greater the forward lean, the greater the energy needed to carry a given weight and the greater the strain on the body according to research.

Balancing the weight in front and behind with an Aarn Bodypack gives a much more upright posture, takes the leverages off your spine and shoulders and significantly reduces energy consumption and body pain for a given weight. Gait patterns have also been shown to be more natural.

So how does this relate to minimalist footwear? My experience :

I have hiked in varied terrain in Five Fingers, Trail Gloves and Inov 8 and find a very easy transition from walking with no load and walking with a fully counterbalanced in an Aarn Bodypack using minimalist footwear. Loads have been up to 20kg on 8 day trans-alpine traverses with mountaineering equipment. I find I consume far less energy when climbing and can move faster with less effort (compared to when I use boots). At the end of the day there is less fatigue in legs and feet. Best is the Five Fingers with the wide toe spread, but the big limitation is susceptibility to cold. The Inov 8s have the best tread patterns.

I am still looking for a minimalist solution which works for snow and using crampons. I hate having to use boots in these conditions.

Daniel Russell
(Superfluous_Grizzly)

Locale: Creation
6 years of minimalist shoes on 10/24/2012 13:22:51 MDT Print View

As someone who has been consistently been wearing barefoot shoes I felt my head nodding at just about every paragraph in this article, great write up.

One of my biggest disagreements with the article was the rating the NB MT00's received on cushioning. They have more cushion then I need for daily wear and day hikes. They feel just right for backpacking (to me). I feel that the MT00's are a great warmer weather backpacking shoe in all regards other than, even in 4E width, the toe box is slightly constricted. They ARE NOT a suitable winter shoe. At 4.5oz per shoe, you can imagine that there isn't much to these things. There is no room to wear a thick wool sock as Ryan said in his article, which is turning me on to the Lone Peaks.

All opinions are subjective in these reviews and I respect that. I'm convinced that what I use is the best, because it works the best for me. Try them yourself and be the judge.

Here is what I use:

*Everyday wear (walking/running on pavement) = Altra Adams (preferred for a truly barefoot sole & max toe splay), VFF's (I like the Bikila LS for walking/running)

*Day Hiking/Trail Running = VFF Treksport (preferred for max toe splay), New Balance MT00

*Backpacking = New Balance MT00 (Plenty of cushion and great tread)

These are the minimalist shoes I use consistently after trying MOST of them. I would like to know more about Vivo Barefoot shoes since I have not seen much feedback on them. I will try them first hand eventually, until then.

I would not recommend Merrell Trail Gloves to the people asking above. They are narrow throughout and the toe box is very constricting, causing your toe splay to be inhibited. This can result in early discomfort, pain in the forefoot and decreased balance.

Thanks for the write up... I actually made a post in GEAR a couple days back about Barefoot shoes and Backpacking. Nice to see this on the front page.

Cheers,
Dan

Edited by Superfluous_Grizzly on 10/24/2012 13:26:37 MDT.

Kenneth C Herbst
(transdimensional)

Locale: The Alamo City
food for thought on 10/24/2012 13:34:22 MDT Print View

Whether or not one accepts every point the author puts forth, this was a very thought-provoking and nicely written article.

Questions by the readers have been illuminating as well.

Which is all to say...thanks!

You've helped me look at the bio-mechanics of running vs. hiking in an entirely new way.

- Ken

Jeremy Pendrey
(Pendrey) - MLife

Locale: California
poignant article and theories on 10/24/2012 14:48:34 MDT Print View

Ryan's theories are interesting and thought provoking. I'm interested to see studies on the issue to see whether his hypotheses hold up.

Now for my mostly useless-to-others anecdotal and very personal evidence: Been wearing minimalist shoes for everything (work, play, hike, run) for the last 4 years. 2011 JMT was the last time I wore anything with any cushion or even slight heel, and it was very minimal (NB 790 trail flats). This year backpacked all summer (3 multi-day trips) in Vivobarefoot Breathos (mesh no heel minimalist trail runners) and loved every minute of it. Now that I wear minimalist shoes for everything all the time my feet almost never get tired (big change for me). (The rest of me, unfortunately, still wears out, and quicker every year!) Also, I share Ryan's experience of flat foot issues disappearing entirely now that my feet are much stronger, particularly in the arch. I plan to put my Breathos to the test next summer with a much longer duration hike. Side note: I can't even wear shoes with any arch support anymore. My feet rebel. Moderate cushioning if even from front to back would probably not pose a problem, though I feel like I'm on stilts when I wear anything with significant cushioning. Close to the ground feel definitely feels easier no matter how rocky or rooty the trail. And having a toe guard is still critical to avoid the stubbed toe issue, which is why I wear minimalist mesh trail runners and not sandals.

David Newberger
(dnewberger)
Minimalist shoes on 10/24/2012 14:48:50 MDT Print View

Thirty years ago on a long backpacking trip, I developed blisters wearing a pair of the heavy stiff leather boots I was wearing. In order to keep going, I switched to a pair of Birkenstock sandals. Result was less end of the day fatigue and no issues of not enough support for my fifty plus pound pack.

Over the years since, after a variety of injuries including breaking my legs five times, arthritic pain was developing in a hip joint and around one knee. With the the growing availability of flexible soles with low or zero heel drop shoes, I have been for two years wearing these exclusively. Walking down the street, hiking, wherever. Interestingly the arthritic issues are mostly gone. I live in western Colorado and am out on the trails all summer. Up and down and long distances. The New Balance MT00 has become my favorite except for a few routes where I might choose a shoe with a rock plate. Besides less fatigue from the diminished weight of these shoes, balance is greatly improved with the increased ground feel associated with minimal shoes. Not for everyone but for me and my issues, lightweight flexible low heeled shoes are the best thing since sliced bread.

As far as the writers comments about the weight of a pack, does this mean that a persons body weight should affect their shoe choice. I am not convinced additional cushioning or stiffness helps muscular skeletal loading.

Interesting reading all of this.

Paul Backus
(backuspaul)

Locale: Bellingham, WA
VivoBarefoot Off Road boots on 10/24/2012 15:21:28 MDT Print View

I use the Vivo Barefoot Off Road boots for both on- and off-trail backpacking/hiking. They work great! Unfortunately mine came apart and getting Vivo to honor the warranty was a real pain, so I'm hesitant to recommend the company.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: kool-aid on 10/24/2012 17:11:08 MDT Print View

"just because we evolved walking barefoot does not mean that shoes aren't better."

Given that shoes have been around for at least 7,000 years, I'd offer a huge +1.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Minimalist shoes on 10/24/2012 17:20:43 MDT Print View

I've used lightweight shoes a little.

When I'm on rough terrain, like stepping on the edge of sharp rocks, it seems like heavier shoes/boots are more comfortable.

And if I'm hiking in the rain or through wet brush, my feet stay fairly dry. With minimalist shoes, wouldn't they get wet and stay wet?

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
Teva Grecko Sandals on 10/24/2012 17:59:50 MDT Print View

Samurai Joe's Te Araroa (Valesko) is currently walking the New Zealand Trail (Total Base Weight: ~6 lbs, 4 ounces) in sandals as he did on the CDT '09 (Total Base Weight: ~5 lbs 12 oz -~6 lbs 8.4 oz and PCT '07 (Total Base Weight: 4 lbs, 15 oz).

Would be interesting to get his outlook on shoes.

Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
pragmatism on 10/24/2012 19:26:57 MDT Print View

I appreciate the pragmatic approach here. "Is this the best tool for the job?" is exactly the right question. The welcome trend toward minimalist footwear has been, disappointingly, shrouded in philosophy and thin references to science. The issue of backpacking footwear need not be philosophical, unless of course you hike for primarily philosophical reasons. I hike more for pleasure than to connect with my ancestors, or as a testament to human evolution, so whatever keeps me in pleasure and out of pain is what stays on my feet. Also, while studies can point us in the right direction, personal biomechanics and environmental factors are so particular, that your own 'scientific experimentation' (i.e. experience) provides the best info. I find online anecdotes, minus the zealotry, helpful as well.

My own anecdotes:

Dancing around in super minimal shoes like Merrell trail gloves has been a joy on the short, well traveled, technical trails here in the boulder foothills. As a bonus, its improved my strength and agility. I also used these section hiking the CT last summer averaging 25-30 miles a day with a wet weight between 8-12 lbs. While a more gentle gait left me fresher at day's end, I bruised my feet pretty bad after a prolonged night hike. I wore these again on scrambling missions early this summer, and while great for smearing and boulder hopping, one wrong talus step taught me they're not the tool for the job. I concur with ryan on this: the super minimal shoes are best for shorter on trail hikes in good daylight.

A fairly committing 5th class scramble in MT101's early in the summer had me searching out a minimalist shoe with mild protection that bridges running and approach styles. (wow, we certainly can afford to be finicky consumers these days!) Two shoes that fit bill are the scarpa spark and the la sportiva vertical K. Both have phenomenal grip. The vertical K basically gloms onto rock, wet or dry. Imagine having gecko feet. At first I was resistant to these, since the morpho cushioning didn't settle well with the minimalist kool-aid I'd been drinking. That said, no shoe left me feeling better after long trail miles, and non-performed as well on technical terrain from scrambling to talus/boulder hopping and side hilling. The morpho cushioning actually resulted in less ankle strain on prolonged side hilling. My gripes: the toe box isn't wide enough, the forefoot could use a touch more protection, and they dry too slow for being such a light shoe. All of these gripes are addressed in the helios, coming out in the spring. The spark felt pretty ideal on a few day hikes, but hurt my knees after long miles. Not sure why this is, but could be related to having to readjust after using the cushy vertical k's.

And most recently, I've been wearing merrell mix masters. These are the most comfortable semi-minimal shoes I've tried. I generally put these on and forget about them, which is a high compliment. The sole offers a good amount of protection without too much cushioning. Its sort of like a more comfortable MT101, with less drop and better grip. Close to my perfect for trail shoe, actually. That said, I got pretty used to the grip and agility of the vertical k's, and in comparison, these can sometimes feel clownish and rigid. My friend and I recently did an overnight in zion w/ stretches of slick rock scrambling, and more than a few times I missed the grip of the vertical k's. (finicky indeed ;) But if I were thru-hiking a long trail, I'd stock up on these for sure.

Last note, I wanted to like the lone peaks. I love the wide toe box, but I had to choke my midfoot to get a decent performance fit and to keep my heels from slipping. The shoe is also fairly rectangular shaped, which did't really feel anatomical to me. That, combined with the clunky and overly rigid soles made me feel like I was wearing wooden planks on my feet. Not a bad trail shoe though, and the construction is bomber. These didn't fit my particular feet well, but another reason why personal experience is the best criteria. I can totally see a bunch of people going all RJ groupie and buying Altras after reading this. Runners warehouse is a good bet, with their return policy.

Wow, didn't mean to write an e-tome, but I guess this is a decent place for such an anecdotal purge. BTW, psyched about RJ's analytical and practical articles of late. A big reason I started reading BPL.

Kirk O'Brien
(obrien.kirk@gmail.com)
295s on 10/24/2012 19:33:59 MDT Print View

I was happy to see the Inov-8 295s make the list. They served me well on a Grand Canyon Double Crossing this summer and the 4-Pass loop in Colorado. They seem to have a good mix of agility, cushioning, foot protection, and responsiveness. Plus, the traction was solid on all conditions including; rock, sand, snow, and mud. They dried fast in the Canyon but not that fast in the mountains.

Edited by obrien.kirk@gmail.com on 10/24/2012 19:35:40 MDT.

HElinTexas C
(Helintexas) - MLife
Great article on 10/24/2012 20:30:10 MDT Print View

After years of fighting plantar facshiatus, (I ended up in urgent care one night cause I thought I had actually broken something the pain was so bad), I desparately tried Vibram 5 fingers. After slowly building up my leg strength, I got to where I could hike for hours before my feet started feeling sore. Even better, I started having a significantly decrease in pain due to PF. Flair ups are usuallly due to stupidly wearing uncomfortable dress shoes at work when forced to go to meetings.

Recently, I went on a 6 day visit to the Grand Canyon. I hiked between 3 to 10 miles on all 6 days. The first 2 days I day hiked on the rim. I wore my lightweight tennis shoes, since I was mostly walking on concrete/asphalt....which is not fun with 5 fingers. I ended up getting blisters on my toes.

The night before my backpack I parked at the Hermit Trailhead and rested in the car. The next morning I noticed that my feet were swollen. Not a great thing when one is about to embark on a 10 mile hike down into the hot canyon. Especially knowing that I am prone to getting blisters and already had 2 small ones on my toes..

I opted to begin my hike in the Vibram five fingers.

I am so glad I did. That trail is quite rugged and has a extremely uneven trail bed. My five fingers helped my grip rocks better. I love being able to feel the trail. It might be part psychological...but I actually feel more secure in them vs other shoes......especially on a steep descent. I also love the super light feel.....after wearing them...my lightweight tennis shoes feel relatively heavy. Plus, I really like that my feet are so much cooler in them. I don't sweat in them nearly as much. Plus, I like the toe splay.

I did have to be more careful in my foot placement. But that is not a bad thing for me. I never had issues with toe jamming into rocks or such.

My pack was about 25 pds at most. But I do day hike in Florida with a relatively uncomfortable day pack weighing around 18 pds (I carry a actual weight). And I do most of my day hikes in the 5 fingers...I wanted to strengthen my soles and calves.....glad I did!

I made it the entire 9.8 miles with backpack on rugged trail in the heat with the 5 fingers. I did not have any issues at all...I thought that I would have to stop at some point and put on my tennis shoes.... Didn't have to. No soreness and no blisters. Even my existing blisters didn't hurt

The only thing that made me pause was walking the section of trail near the Tonto....it was covered in ping pong sized rocks. I had to be very delicate going over this section of the trail. Plus, the Tonto trail was warm underfoot by the afternoon. It felt weird to feel the heat....but it didn't feel bad.

I did garner attention from others on the trail. Most were shocked and a couple seemed appalled that I was hiking in the Grand Canyon without boots.

I am a big believer in the 5 fingers.....for my feet.

Edited by Helintexas on 10/24/2012 20:42:19 MDT.