This looks great, besides the Downtek, it also stands on it's merits for fill-to-weight ration at 56%!

I wonder about the fill though, the little video shot at Snowshoe nationals shows a rather underfilled looking jacket, yet it claims 9 oz of down, that's a LOT of down. For comparison my old box baffled Alpine light has only 6 oz in a M, yet is super high lofting, or look at the jackets in the recent shootout.

Shell: Pertex Quantum Ripstop
Lining: 20d Nylon
Insulation: 800+ Goose Down
DownTek technology
Fill Weight: 9oz medium
Total weight: 16oz medium
Baffled chest construction
Attached hood
Zipper chin guard
Low bulk cuffs
Rise Free arm construction

Edited by Tjaard on 09/27/2012 19:21:02 MDT.

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Down-Jacket-Reviews/Brooks-Range-Mojave-Jacket

lists the medium weight at 1.4 lb? It is therorectically possbile to build a jacket with those specs for just slightly more than 16 oz. It will be interesting to have a forum member weigh one.

From Brooks Range, per email:

"Yes, the medium jacket weights 16oz and yes we have 9oz of down. We put 220g in our Alpni jackets and this jacket has more.

Were able to save weight because we’re using Pertex Quantum fabric. The Quantum fabric is lighter than most other companies shell / lining fabrics. Were also not using a lot of fleece to line pocket and collars like other brands do.

Thanks

Jeff Blakely "

Awesome cusotmer service btw, response on my question late at night!

Edited by Tjaard on 10/01/2012 11:59:44 MDT.

My size Small just arrived – I will not have a chance to wear it in truly cold weather for awhile, but sure seems like the perfect jacket!
Weight is 14.1 ounces, with proportions that match up very nicely with the sizing chart. (I have a Medium in the Alpini, since I was told that ran a little short, and that by contrast the Mojave is a little bigger. This matches up with their relative fits, as my Medium Alpini is larger than my Mojave Small, but more like a half-size differential.)
Hood is designed very well to fit over a helmet, yet still able to snug down for helmet-less use around camp or inside a sleeping bag. Weight is even more impressive given that the features include a full-length zipper, two outside zippered pockets with fleece lining, an inside zippered storage pocket, velcro cuff adjusters, bungee hood tighteners, and a velcro tab at the back of the hood. (Just remember that you need to supply your own stuff sack.)
The relative warmths of jackets are always difficult to quantify, but it clearly has an exceedingly high fill weight as a percentage of total garment weight, and with the water-resistant down, it’s pretty much off the charts in comparison to synthetic fill jackets.

does the jacket have a down-filled draft tube protecting the zipper?

Berghaus has some interesting water resistant down jackets as well:

http://www.mtnhaus.com/ilam-down-jacket/ (more like a 3 season jacket)

http://www.mtnhaus.com/ilam-down-jacket/ (warmer)

they also have some "scientific" data to support their claims, the graph under design & development at http://www.mtnhaus.com/mount-asgard-hybrid/ is quite interesting. According to Berghaus their treated down keeps 80% of its clo value when exposed to water. Regular down losses 50% during the same test.


I just wonder how long the dwr abilities will last and how synthetics deal under the same conditions.


Would be great to see some direct comparison between synthetic and the new down stuff in regards to insulation properties. Does this new down really beat synthetics in prolonged wet conditions? is someone listening at bpl :)

Hi Jonathan,

You are the first Bpl member I know of to get their hands on one of these.

If you could post some pictures and measure loft it well be great, also does the shell seem fragile.

Cheers,

Stephen

Material, comparable to my various other lightweight insulation. So obviously not a bushwhacking outer layer! But seems like it will keep the down in, the wind out, and be reasonably durable for its intended applications.

Loft, I was about to ask how to measure it, but of course Google took me here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00094.html
[Scroll down to: About Measuring Down Loft]
I put a level across A & D, then measured the distance to the table.
I didn't put much time into this, since having done lots of work measuring initial acquisition range in my avalanche reviews, I sensed that down this road lay absolute madness.
And I doubt my measurements are directly comparable to those made by others.
Nevertheless, the numbers I got for all my down jackets:
7.8cm Brooks-Range Alpini (which has also struck me as amazingly puffy)
6.7cm Brooks-Range Mojave (does seem a little bit less puffy)
5.6cm decade-old Sierra Designs jacket (600 or 650 fill)
4.3cm wife's TNF knee-length around-town jacket
about the same for my brother's two-decade-old CB jacket (500 fill?), since I just love wearing old junk around town (while everyone else shows off the latest backcountry fashions that they never use much in the backcountry!)

One of the two waist adjusters (which I forgot to mention in my review):


Draft tube (as per request):


One of the two zippered pockets:


Cuff with velcro adjustment:


Hood, twisted about so as to see both types of adjustments:

Edited by jshefftz1 on 10/09/2012 18:46:12 MDT.

Thank you for the information. Would you mind telling us something about the length? A measurement from the base of the hood to the hem would be most helpful, but any info would be appreciated.

Cheers Jonathan,

I get about 63 to 64cm, for both the size Medium Alpini and size Small Mojave, measured from the base of the hood in the back, to the hem.
They also feel the same length when worn. I'm 5'8" and it comes down to my crotch.

So I'm confused, Brooks put more dow into the Mojave than the Alpini, yet the Alpini still has higher loft?

Does anyone else know if downtek fill power is measured before or after the waterproofing treatment? That's about the only thing I could account for a less puffy jacket....assuming there isn't outright completely incorrect specs on fill weight.

Hi Jonathan,

You know you are going to have to wet out the two jackets and see which dries quicker
;-)

Edited by stephenm on 10/10/2012 16:02:55 MDT.

I knew someone was going to bring that up...

You know you want to Jonathan ;-)

BR confirms that fill power is measured *after* the water-resistance treatment.

BR also explains that the Mojave has a higher *average* loft than the Alpini. Essentially, I've been measuring just the peaks, not the averages of the peaks and valleys.
Note that the span of the stitches on the Alpini is ~9.5cm, but only ~7cm on the Mojave. And the Alpini is sewn through, whereas Mojave is baffled in the chest.

Somewhat related question -- Rab Neutrino Endurance:
http://us.rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/down_1/neutrino-endurance-jacket.html
... is "Stitch-through baffle construction" -- but isn't that mutually exclusive?

Is the draft tube down filled? Also do both front and back of the pockets have down.

Cheers,

Yes, draft tube is lightly filled (presumably with down).
The pockets are positioned behind all the insulation, right up against the interior lining.
So yes on front of pockets having down, no on back of pockets.

Cheers,

My Gooses Feet Parka has the exact same specs, I must measure the loft.

I presume these figures are for double layer loft, I measured my Gooses Feet Parka which weighs 16oz (9oz 900fp box wall, M90 outer) and the double layer loft is 15cm.

I measured according to here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00094.html
[Scroll down to: About Measuring Down Loft]
More specifically, I put a level across A & D, then measured the distance to the table.
But I measured in only one place, and reported in cm.
Translating into inches, I see that my measurements fo the two BR jackets are on the low end of those reviewed at that link. However, the weights of the two BR jackets are also on the low end of those reviewed at that link.
Moreover, I noticed this statement at that link:
"All of the jackets increased 10% to 20% in loft over the week of observation."
And then the issue of trying to average out the peaks and valleys...so basically, I don't think these measurements are very meaningful across relatively small ranges.

Cheers Jonathan,

Measuring loft is a real can of worms, I look forward to your long term review.

Ah, good to know. Didn't realize one was box wall vs sewn through. That's a huge difference (I usually prefer not to compare them since choosing one construction over the other is usually a choice dictated by contradictory demands).

As for Rab's sewn through box construction, I've noticed that too. The only think I can come up with that makes "sense" is that they are distinguishing sewn box wall construction from welded construction (like the old MB Permafrost). Why such a distinction is necessary is a bit beyond me since I assume sewn is standard and welding is a "feature" that is worth marketing specifically...but companies aren't always the most consistent or logical.

Anyone else get to see.one of these in the flesh yet?

A good review of it here.

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/brooks-range/mojave-jacket/

I got one of these last week for my birthday.

Will be trying it out this weekend.

Stephen,

How did you like the Mojave in the end?

Any particular strengths/weaknesses?

Cheers,
Andrew

Hi Andrew,

I have not used in anger yet as it did not arrive in time for my last trip.

It is very well constructed and as good as quality as any of the other high end kit I have.

To be honest I am slightly disappointed with the loft as its only half the thickness of my Gooses
Feet Parka which has the same amount of down in it (800vs900 fp though) but the Goooses Feet Parka is like a mutant :-)

I will post some pics in a bit.

I have one to clo test but won't get to it until I finish a couple of other very big projects (months off).

Based on my initial manual inspection, I will be VERY surprised if the clo value tests anywhere close to what 9oz of 800 fill should.

The loft is anemic compared to other 800 fill parkas with 9 oz. of fill but, low loft can be offset by increased down density. Unfortunately even the down density appears sub-par.

I have the same I impressions Richard.


I have taken some photos comparing the loft with other parkas.

The blue Parka has 250g down, the black one has 310g.

Edited by stephenm on 02/23/2013 14:14:57 MST.

I bought one & also thought it seemed distictly underfilled. Packs up smaller than my rab infinity even though its cut about a size bigger and suppodly has about 2.5 oz more down. Its a nice jacket, but I don't beli eve the spec. I also like my infinity a better (besides the reg down) so I returned the mojave. Also curiou to see how these different types of hydrophic down fair against eachother (downtek vs encapsil etc)

I would definitely class it as 3 season Hoody, it does have zippered pockets and all that so that's what adds the weight.

If it was 80g lighter it would be a great item.

Edited by stephenm on 02/27/2013 09:49:50 MST.

I have sent an email to the company it was bought from voicing my concerns about the loft.

Will let you all know the outcome.

Stephen and Richard,

Thanks for your insights. I too could not reconcile the apparent lack of loft with the reported 9 oz of down. Interestingly (or not), the jacket has received a mostly positive review at OutdoorGearLab.com, with a "warmth" rating higher than the Rab Infinity. Perhaps this is more a result of box baffles rather than increased down content, though.

Cheers,
A

Hi Andrew?

Its only box baffled in the body and not in arms and hood.

Not to knock outdoorgearlab but I find there reviews not as "scientific" as Richards or Bpls.

The construction is all sewn-through except for the front of the torso is box-baffled (1/2 the body area).

Thanks Richard.

I just had a look and the back of the baffles mush be mesh lined as there is a "loose" fabric panel on both sides of the front.

This photo shows what I mean.

Stephen,
Is that perhaps the pocket?

Hi Tjarrd,

My apologies I missed your question, its definitely not a pocket.

I was waiting for the weather to warm up a bit to try it out, I was on an overnighter last night
and found it slightly chilly in the back and warms at about 25f due to the stitch through construction
In those areas, putting a wind shirt over it did help a bit. It is definitely a 3 season piece.

Cheers,

So a 9oz fill weight pseudo box-wall jacket is chilly at 25f?! My MB UL Parka with a wind shirt can get me to around freezing, and layering two of those would be the same weight as the Mojave but with only 5oz of down and at least as warm if nor warmer than 25f. Looking at the pictures it also looks even less lofty than my MHW Hooded Phantom with 6ish oz of 800fp down.

I mean many 20F quilts are made with only 11oz of down spread over a much larger surface area instead of just a torso, so what gives?

Has anyone figured out where the discrepancy comes in?

Great discussion. I was vaguely interested in this jacket, but no more. The solid fabric panel in the interior seems very suspect. It essentially means that there's a double layer of something there; even if the hidden layer is mesh, it's got to "consume" some of the jacket's available weight. And the fact that the jacket is perceived to be cold at 25 deg., though it has 9 oz of 800 fill down, is boggling.

Guys,

Just some things to note.

1. Its box wall only in the front, the rest is stitch through.

2. I was wearing a Mec T1 hoodie and a cap 2 equivalent base layers with a lightweight beanie under it, normally in winter I would have a nano puff or equivalent under a down jacket but as it was 1 night trip I did not bother.
3. I feel the cold when stopped.

I would put the Mojave in same warmth class as my old Montbell Alpine light Parka.

I do like it but its a 3 season piece.

Realize box-baffling is only supposed to be in the front of the torso, but what's with the fabric panel? That means that, if the front of the torso really is box wall, and not just sewn-through with a fabric panel behind it, there's a torso-front's equivalent of unneeded fabric. And we can't get around that by saying it's probably mesh, because mesh is sometimes heavier than the newer light fabrics, I think.

Edited by swimjay on 03/31/2013 17:31:09 MDT.

I am thinking the same with the fabric panel, half of one could be put down to the pockets but not a full one.

When I was buying this I put a crap load of research in to it, I spoke with the owner of company I bought it from (Climbhigh.com) and he reckoned it was a decent parka.

I did get a very good discount on it.

Stephen, that's the point though. The Alpine Light Parka has around 4.5 oz of down, half what is claimed in a Mojave. Other jackets that are in the 9oz of 800+fp range are the Rab Neutrino variants, the MB Permafrost, and the MHW Nilas (the nilas has a bit less down but most similar construction).

9oz of down is a serious claim. That amount, box walled or not, is basically what you need to climb at high altitudes outside of Asia, such as Denali, Aconcagua, Volcanoes...

Now I fully understand that people should try their gear before going on expeditions, but to sell your jacket as being in a warmth class as other jackets that will keep you alive in very cold environments is negligent.

While Outdoorgearlab isn't the best technical review site, their review puts it in the same category as the the MB Frostsmoke, only warmer. The frostmoke has a measly 3.5oz of down so this corresponds well with the Alpine Light comparison (and visual loft inspection looks similar).

It's really hard to find any true reviews of the jacket aside from some rehashing of talking points. Gearjunkie.com has one that says the mojave is not as warm as the alpini (which again has less down and no box-baffling) which defies all logic and known insulation science.

I'm having a hard time believing the specs and that's a shame. I want to believe that it's a typo but I'm thinking it's more intentional to justify the $100 price hike for water resistant down.

Hi Dustin,

I forgot to mention that I asked the place I bought it from to contact Brooks Range
and they confirmed it has 9oz.

Have you seen the reviews on Trailspace?
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/brooks-range/mojave-jacket/

Dustin,

I got rid of the alpine light last year due to the lack of hem drawcord so was unable to directly compare them.
I just compared it to my wife's stitch through parka with 210g and the Mojave is definitely less lofty than it, I will call Brooks Range tomorrow.

Edited by stephenm on 04/02/2013 11:42:40 MDT.

All,

I just got off the phone with the Mojaves Designer at Brooks Range.

He has confirmed it has 9oz of down in it, he has offered to replace or refund the jacket. He mentioned I am the only person to have any issues with it and that it has been used for belay on cold weather climbing trip.

What do folk think?

Edited by stephenm on 04/02/2013 11:41:33 MDT.

Sounds to me like yours is out of spec. I'd suggest taking them up on the exchange offer, and if that one is no different for you, get a refund. There's always a risk of being the early adopter of a first generation technology. But they are offering you a couple of different ways out to mitigate your risk.

Cheers Stuart,

I think you are right about sending it back.

If they're willing to refund/replace the product and are standing by their specs than maybe you just got a dud. The first runs through any manufacturing plant always have hiccups.

And yes I've seen those reviews (and similar from other sites). Looks like people spouting marketing material in exchange for free gear. They nearly ALL say the same thing, or close enough that it'd flag a plagiarism checking service. I don't buy the immersion tests as valid because as shown on another thread, prolite gear is doing some testing and demonstrating that the water proofness of the DWR downs is marginal at best. Basically down has builtin lanolin that does the same job and the new downs are only better in very specific and not very real world situations. Plus immersion or rain tests actually tax the shell fabric far more than the down itself (and remember rain only happens around and above freezing, temps that should make you roast in such a filled jacket).

While I'm still not convinced it's a true 9oz down jacket since many people say the rab neutrino endurance (8oz) is warmer even though it's fully sewn through, albeit longer cut. Look at the Feathered Friends Helios with 8oz of down. Put on a person they look so much puffier than the mojave.

My guess is that it's 9oz in the largest size offered but in the mediums it probably drops down to the 6-7oz range. Assuming that there aren't two versions floating around Since it's 800fp this would put it on par with say a MB mirage (5.3oz 900fp) or the MHW Hooded Phantom (but with DWR down). Those are warm jackets for sure, just not deep yellowstone winter warm. I'd definitely get a replacement. At the very least they'll probably make sure you get the loftiest jacket in your size that they have in the warehouse and then you will have a nice fluffy DWR down jacket for yourself, regardless of what they sell to everyone else.

I have had a think about it and if I was sending it back I would take the refund as looking at pics online mine has similar loft.

This may be true, but it sounds an awful lot like what every salesman says when one complains that a product doesn't do what it promised. A more constructive attitude, on the part of the company, is to realize that for every person who complains, there are x people, where x is around 5, maybe more, IIRC, who have the same issue but haven't complained, either because they're too busy, or haven't stressed the item to the point where the flaw shows up.

More generally, a lot of our gear is virtual gear, in that what we're really buying when we purchase it is a sense of possibility -- "Wow, I could actually survive a blizzard now" -- but then it may never leave the closet. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, and I actually get out a quite a bit. So, if you're a manufacturer, the temptation to shade the truth, since so many of us are influenced by stated specs, must be large.

Edited by swimjay on 04/02/2013 16:39:27 MDT.

Hi Jim,

It is very possible that I am the first person to complain but they did offer to make it right, it is a shame as I was looking forward to trying out Dwr down.

Anything that comes in to my house get tested out and if its not to scratch it gets sent back if new or if second hand sent to gear swap.

Stephen,

I think your concerns are justified. Take a look at this page:

http://brooks-range.com/Mojave-Down-Jacket.html

It appears the Mojave may contain only 6 oz of down, which would certainly appear to be more consistent with the perceived loft. It also conflicts with the "Specs" tab under the product description.

Is it possible the salesperson you spoke to was simply quoting from Specs?

In any event, the jacket itself doesn't appear to be lofty and warm enough for the reported quantity of down.

Cheers,
A

Edited by amanies on 04/03/2013 18:50:58 MDT.

Hi Andrew,

6oz would seem about right for the amount of loft in the jacket, I have looked at that page many times and it always said 9oz.

When I called Brooks Range yesterday I spoke to the General Manager who also designed the jacket and he swore there was 9oz in it.

Strange...

Steven, I've also checked frequently since they've announce the mojave (and especially since we've discussed the misgivings) and it always said 9oz for me. So it looks like the 9oz is a typo (or they're slowly coming clean). They still claim it's their warmest jacket yet...however others have said the alpini was a tad bit warmer.

Well the alpini has 7.7oz of down, lighter fabric, half zip, and simpler/lighter sewn through construction. It weighs 15 oz.

So take a 15 oz with supposedly 7.7oz of down and bump that exact same jacket up to 9oz. That would give us a jacket of 16.3oz total with zero design changes beyond extra down. Now add partial box baffling, increase the zipper length, and use heavier fabric...that all adds up to probably a 19+oz jacket. But our jacket in question weighs 16. Where did those extra 3 ounces go? Oh they went into the profits column (or the profits of the contracted manufacturing plant which then it's not entirely their fault but still doesn't absolve them).

It has the exact same specs as my 180g (6.4oz) fill weight MHW Hooded Phantom which also weighs almost exactly 16oz.

I think at this point it's safe to assume it's a 6oz fill power jacket with DWR treated down weighing in at a total of a pound. So from 56% down it drops to a realistic, and below average, 37.5% down. Look at the competition, the FF Helios is ~49% down (based off their specs and they're known for lowballing total weight), the impressively warm/light MB Mirage is 41.4%, GoLite Bitterroot is 40.5%, and the Rab Infinity is 43.75% with a 10d pertex quantum fabric.

As a major manufacturer, it seems that sewn through down jackets max out around 50% down and baffled max out somewhere in the low 40%s. Going above that requires using the lightest and most fragile of fabrics and dropping a lot of features that makes the jacket less marketable and not economically viable products (not enough people willing to compromise so much for economies of scale to kick in).

The ONLY parkas I've seen that can actually claim more than 50% down (in the .75 to 1.5 lb total weight range) have ALL been custom made MYOG or Cottage manufacturers. Goosefeet has this capability but notice it's not even hinted at on the webpage as an option. We just hear about these fantastically underpriced custom pieces as members post them.

Unfortunately looks like another case of misleading product specs. It's a shame because if it weren't for the shady specs it'd still be a nice jacket with DWR down at a reasonable price for the category. Instead it's a stain on the integrity or quality control of the company. Hopefully they take care of you!

There's really only one solution. It involves a scale, scissors, and, of course, thorough documentation.

Hi Dustin,

If the Mojave weighed about 370g or had half decent loft at the specced weight it would be a keeper, but when I compare it to my Goosefeet Parka that weighs the same it pails in comparison as it is is fully baffled and 54% of that weight is 900fp down.

I am going to use the money from the refund to get Gooses feet to make me a baffled hosed pullover, it may even replace my Parka which free cash will free up cash for the new winter pack I have on order.

Happy days.

Hi Avery,

I would be up for that if 300 Bpl members sent me a dollar each via PayPal :-)

Edited by stephenm on 04/05/2013 18:05:06 MDT.

Yeah, I love your GooseFeet Parka actually. It almost makes me want to leave the desert and move to the cold just so I have an excuse to get one myself ;).

Having Ben make you a new jacket in line with what you need makes more sense. It's hard to argue with custom fit and specs that are lighter than anything available off the shelf.

Well make sure you post the new pullover when you get it. We always love to see more of Ben's work put to good use!

It saw great service this year in sunny Michigan, I managed to use it down to -13f and was still warm in with a pair of box wall down pants.
I say I should have the new one in mid May, if it works out as planned my existing one will be on gear swap.

I have decided to give the Mojave another go and try it out on another trip, if it does not work out then I will definiltey send it back.