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John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 06:58:50 MDT Print View

I am forever exploring ways to lighten my pack load. Lately I've become curious about solid fuel stoves like the one below.

Esbit Solid Fuel Stove

My concerns are the sooting issues on the cookpot and the residue left over on the stove itself after cooking or boiling water.

Can anyone share their experience and technique in the use of this type of stove "cleanly"?

I believe someone recently mentioned using a small piece of foil in the fuel tab tray to control the fuel tab residue on the stove and a small piece of foil under the stove to reflect heat and catch the fuel residue that might drip down.

Any suggestions would be appreciated especially for keeping the pot clean.

How do you do it? Please include pictures as I am a visual learner. ;-)

Party On,

Newton

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 07:04:01 MDT Print View

The residue wipes off easily if you don't let it cool off and set up. --B.G.-- uses the foil liner in the tray. The under stove piece works as you say.

Greg Pehrson
(GregPehrson) - MLife

Locale: playa del caballo blanco
soap the pot on 09/17/2012 08:10:38 MDT Print View

I don't use solid fuel but when I use a pot over a wood stove or fire, I rub a bar of soap on the bottom and sides of the pot and the soot wipes off easily when I come home. I keep the pot and stove in an old tyvek mailer that I've made into a stuff sack that I don't mind getting dirty inside.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 09:11:50 MDT Print View

@Ken,

"The residue wipes off easily if you don't let it cool off and set up".

From the stove, the pot or both? That little tray seems like it could be a PITA.

@Greg,

Do you have to re-apply the soap between "burns" or is it just a one time application per trip? How long does it last? Did you size the tyvek stuff sack so that it has a wide opening but closes tightly to avoid getting the soot on the higher edges of the cook pot and stuff sack?

@Bob,

It must be too early in the morning out in CA. ;-)

If I go this route I'll definitely be able to fit my "fuel" inside of my cook pot without searching for a properly sized "small" fuel bottle.

Now for some more general questions.

Do any of you portion out your fuel tabs according to burn times and amount of water boiled?

What do you store the unused but opened pieces of fuel tabs in between uses?

Can a burning fuel tab be "snuffed out" and used later if a whole tab isn't needed?

Thanks to all.

Party On,

Newton

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 09:40:31 MDT Print View

There are some differences in how close various solid fuels burn. My memory is that the WetFire Tinder burned the cleanest and were the most expensive. I typically use the classic esbits because it's pretty easy (and reasonably affordable) but buy a bunch at a time (box of 20 i think).

I have found that the residue seems a bit less when the esbit is burned inside something like a caldera cone which helps keep the combustion stabilized... but there is still some reside. Like Bob observed, the residue comes off easily if you don't let it harden. For dinner I burn the esbit to heat dinner, blow it out, and relight to make a mug of tea. Once I have finished drinking my tea II immediate turn the pot/mug over and use the tea bag to wipe off the residue. Tea bags are not very durable, so you can imagine it doesn't take serious scrubbing.

I don't worry as much about the residue on the fuel holder. I just give it a good knock, and fully clean it when I get somewhere that I have running water. I am more attentive to the pot's outside because it travels in my pack without anything covering it... don't want the residue getting on other things. The stove is carried inside the pot with the next esbits I will use in contact with the residue and that combo inside a plastic bag... don't worry about that getting dirty.

As to soaping pot before a wood fire... yes, I used to do that as well. Soap has to be reappeared each time you clean the pot.

As I observed about... it's possible to "snuff out" a tab. I don't bother cutting up the fuel tab and don't typically carry partially burned tabs because one tab is perfect for a meal followed by tea. If I was going to carry something partially burned, it would be inside a small ziplock plastic bag inside my pot.


--Mark

Edited by verber on 09/17/2012 16:22:13 MDT.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 10:08:05 MDT Print View

Thanks Mark

I seem to remember seeing something on a BPL thread about using the "pink" solid fuel tablets as opposed to the normal tabs. If I remember correctly there was some reference to these having less residue and or soot.

Anybody heard of this or have any experience with the pink solid fuel tablets? The brand name Bleuet seems to ring a bell regarding this subject.

Party On,

Newton

Edited by Newton on 09/17/2012 10:11:21 MDT.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 10:44:46 MDT Print View

Dangit, I woke up for this?

Seriously, you really want to experiment with this, because you will learn all sorts of subtle details. I have to admit, I used to get alcohol spills in the old days, and that was one of my primary reasons for shifting over to Esbit, but that is just me.

Right now in my equipment storage room, I have three different packages of Esbit fuel, each with a different brand name, and I see different performance, different residue, different blow-out and re-light action, and probably some other things. So far this summer, I have gone through at least three or four boxes of the stuff.

The colder your cook pot is and the colder the water is in it, the more sooty residue you get on the pot. Actually, what I get is a brown/black sticky tar. Once you finish one cooking session, if you immediately drop that sticky pot into a storage bag, now you have sticky crap all over the bag. So, I let the pot cool completely and the residue hardens somewhat. I transport it in a disposable plastic produce bag, so the residue doesn't get all over everything. There must be some things that can be done to adjust the flame space to minimize the residue, or maybe I am keeping the bottom air venting choked.

If you put a soap layer on the pot really good in advance, the soap layer will protect the metal surface from residue, up until the point where you accidentally wipe the soap layer off. Been there. Done that. I'll bet that there is some perfect kind of soap layer that you can use. Must experiment.

I find it best to use a full cube in the fuel tray. Then I boil a cup of water, then I blow the fire out, and there is at least a half cube remaining. Also, that used cube (depending on brand) has little spiky Esbit crystals sticking out from the surface for a tenth of an inch. Maybe 15 minutes later, I relight it easily at the crystal surface and do another boil. Once the meal is finished, if I have a partial cube left, I drop it back into the Esbit packaging (foil and plastic) and carry it to the next camp. When I blow the fire out, I do not want to breathe the smoke or fumes, so I do it quickly.

An alternative method is to take a full cube and cut it in half with a knife. Unfortunately, some brands tend to shatter, so you are pinching up little white flakes from all over. There, you would really need a fuel tray.

If I am cooking something big, I use two Esbit cubes together, placed vertically on the fuel tray. I don't think that is more efficient, but it is quicker. However, most of the time when I backpack with a friend, we use a tiny butane rig instead. To me, Esbit makes best sense in mild conditions and for solo water boiling. Just don't make me go back to Louisiana!

--B.G.--

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 16:09:36 MDT Print View

Bob,

"Just don't make me go back to Louisiana"!

C'mon, brought youself down here an' we'll pass a good time yeah! ;-)

We might even be able to find some of that freeze dried crawfish. L O L

Seriously thanks for all of the good info and experience with Esbit.

I was doing some research and see where each tab weighs 14 gm or .5 oz.

Bob mentioned that he can get 2 boils out of a tab. That's 7 gm or .250 oz of fuel per boil.

My latest alcohol stove gives me a boil using 15 ml or 1/2 fluid oz of alcohol. If I've done my math correctly 15 ml of alcohol weighs .3935 oz.

Esbit can burn at @ 1400 degrees F. Ethanol can burn at temperatures approaching 1652 degrees F. from the info that I have found on the internet.

Each Esbit tab has its own container and associated trash to pack and dispose of. An alcohol fuel bottle is reusable, refillable and doesn't have to end up in the trash bin. Actually an alcohol fuel bottle can be reclaimed from the trash bin.

It seems that the alcohol burns hotter but weighs just a touch more. My alcohol burner weighs 11 grams while the Esbit Ti stove weighs 11.34 grams.

Soot on my cook pot, the odor and fuel residue in my stove for a minimal weight reduction, aside from the point of alcohol spillage, someone tell me why I should make the switch.

Party On,

Newton

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 16:14:31 MDT Print View

"someone tell me why I should make the switch."

Simply because you can.

I made an alcohol burner that was 2 grams. That doesn't mean that I was going to convert over and use it all of the time. I still use white gas stoves on occasion.

You have to get to where you can make a trail beignet with one of them.

--B.G.--

Jon Fong
(jonfong) - F - M

Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR
Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 16:23:03 MDT Print View

1) When you knock you stove over, Esbit won't spill over and create a large fire like alcohol.
2) It is suppose to work at ambient temperatures lower than what DA works at
3) It is suppose to work better at higher elevations than DA
4) it is easier to put out the flame and re-use
5) easy to ship by land
6) it is a "more acceptable" fuel to transport on boats

There are negatives like odor, soot and a funky MSDS, but Esbit does have a place in this world. My 2 cents - Jon

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Re: Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 16:24:15 MDT Print View

Bob,

S.E. Louisiana has gone upscale lately. We now have a local Panera Bread eatery in our area. So I'm going to have to come up with a recipe for a trail scone.;-)

Party On,

Newton

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 16:37:37 MDT Print View

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the email about the videos.

1 thru 6 are just the kind of points that I was looking for to make my choice.

@ Bob,

I still have a canister stove, multiple alcohol stoves and a wood burning stove in addition to my interest in Esbit stoves.

Esbit interested me because I thought that I would see a sizable weight reduction.

I have recently spent a great deal of time testing and experimenting with alcohol stoves and will be "weighing" my options carefully. ;-)

Party On,

Newton

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 17:27:42 MDT Print View

"Esbit interested me because I thought that I would see a sizable weight reduction."

I'm not sure that the weight difference will be sizable. Esbit is more for simplicity. I think I use it because it seems more foolproof. Jon made some good points.

Once you've done white gas, butane, alcohol, and Esbit... then where do you go?

I've tried wood twigs and candle wax. I've tried dried yak dung as a fuel. It's hard to find good yak dung in Louisiana.

You shouldn't need to get so far out into the weeds unless you have an unusual situation. A couple of years ago I was going to my camp all the way by air. Pilots get a little picky about fuels on the aircraft.

--B.G.--

Paul McLaughlin
(paul) - MLife
Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 09/17/2012 18:30:05 MDT Print View

I have used Esbit on a couple trips.

I did nothing to deal with the residue except put my pot in a plastic bag before putting it in my pack. Cleaned it off at home. Left it on the stove forever.

For me, one tab cooked one dinner (boiled about a pint, basically) just fine, so I never had to use more or less than a tab. I have experimented at home using two tabs to boil a quart, which worked fine, but never did that on the trail, as I only took it on solo trips.

It might be slightly lighter or slightly heavier than an alky stove depending on your stove, but at that point they are both so light that who cares? I prefer it to alky because I can see the flame and I know it is burning or not, and if I knock it over I don't have a flaming liquid running around. plus I like ths ease of use - don't have to measure anything, just use a tab - and the fact that I can't have a leaky fuel bottle.

But mostly I use my canister stove because it is so easy and so convenient if I want just a little more hot water for tea or cocoa.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 18:43:18 MDT Print View

For me Esbit allows the use of dinky stove kits. Can't get much lighter. The residue gets hard if you let your pot dry before putting it in a sack. The black from a fire is a real mess. In the desert I don't worry about a dirty beer can pot because the residue dries, I am not going to waste precious water to clean it, and scrubbing with sand or something else is going to ding up/flex my beer can. Using wood in the desert is a no-no. And I usually take the kit into the mountains on most trips.

I normally buy the Esbit brand in bulk. Much better than the trioxane I used when Bob G was a mere lad.

I suppose the beer can pot is now heavier than when new though.

27 Fosters Can

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 18:56:55 MDT Print View

"I normally buy the Esbit brand in bulk. Much better than the trioxane I used when Bob G was a mere lad."

Nick, where do you buy it in bulk? I don't think that Esbit goes stale as long as it is air-sealed.

I was using military trioxane in 1970, but you may have been a mere lad then as well. By the way, who is the old guy in the photo?

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 21:22:01 MDT Print View

Bulk was not the correct word. Case is more exact. Esbit brand when on sale.

I don't see any old people :)

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 21:31:24 MDT Print View

"Case is more exact."

I'm unfamiliar with Esbit in any size package other than a dozen cubes.

--B.G.--

Erik Basil
(EBasil) - M

Locale: Atzlan
This stuff goes stale? on 09/17/2012 22:43:13 MDT Print View

Hey, wait a minute? This stuff goes stale?

I have had tubes and tubes and tubes of old surplus Hexamine for years, but haven't used any in more than 20 -- it's e-fuel for me. Now the last time I used the stuff, it lit and boiled a Sierra Cup just fine. I don't really think of the tubes as "sealed" but the open one surely isn't and remains in my pack to this day. Is it compromise or "dried out" ?

Shucks, I gave away many tubes, because the three I've got seemed pretty much like a lifetime supply. I'd hate to think I handed out duds, though.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 23:06:45 MDT Print View

The display case used in many stores contains 12 boxes of the 12 packs. When it is on sale, ask the manager for an additional 10% off if you buy a case.

:)

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Esbit? on 09/17/2012 23:09:24 MDT Print View

"12 boxes of the 12 packs"

That sounds downright Gross.

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: This stuff goes stale? on 09/17/2012 23:10:46 MDT Print View

> Hey, wait a minute? This stuff goes stale?


No. I'm pretty sure it lasts for decades.

Rex Sanders
(Rex) - M

Locale: Central California Coast
Re: Re: This stuff goes stale? on 09/18/2012 00:43:48 MDT Print View

I used some five-year-old Esbit tablets that had been stored my cool basement, original packaging, inside Ziploc bags, inside sealed buckets.

These old tablets popped many times, sort of like popcorn, and threw tiny chunks of burning Esbit around. They boiled water OK, but I worried about starting fires or melting holes in expensive gear.

Now I buy just the Esbit I need, when I need it.

Tom Lyons
(towaly) - F

Locale: Smoky Mtns.
Weber cubes on 09/18/2012 09:19:26 MDT Print View

I use Weber lighter cubes, which are sold by Weber for lighting their charcoal grills.
Sold in places like Lowe's Hardware.
24 individually packaged cubes for around $6, the last time I checked.
The individual cubes might not remain airtight after you cut them out of the main pack, so take care to ensure that they are in a ziplock or something. I have had some in a ziplock for over a year, and they still work fine.

Anyway, they appear to be a lower cost version of WetFire. They actually burn a little bit longer.
They are cheaper.

To avoid issues with residue, I just use the cubes for lighting a little fire of twigs, and then I use that for cooking.
I guess some people don't like that, and so they can use the cubes alone.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Re: This stuff goes stale? on 09/19/2012 04:28:01 MDT Print View

It wasn't a sale, but I did find and purchase a 12 pack of the Bleuet solid fuel tablets at a local Academy Sports and Outdoors. The price was $4.99 / 12. After sales tax I was out the door minus $5.43. So every time I fire up a $.45 solid fuel tablet I can amuse myself by thinking how much cheaper it is to heat up my water this way than using my alcohol stove and Everclear!

I still have other options such as Heet, 91% Isopropyl and 151 Everclear for alcohol fuels. But now I get to entertain myself by constructing a solid fuel burner / stove for these fuel tabs. I've finally found a use for that SS water bottle that I was gifted with at work. ;-)

Party On,

Newton

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: This stuff goes stale? on 09/19/2012 04:39:18 MDT Print View

"12 pack of the Bleuet"

Those are the pink cubes in the blue box, I think.

Pretty soon we will have to run down to the store for a 12-pack of Bleuet and a 12-pack of Bud.

--B.G.--

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Re: Re: Re: This stuff goes stale? on 09/19/2012 04:47:45 MDT Print View

Bob you're up way early this morning or are you just up way late? LOL

"Pretty soon we will have to run down to the store for a 12-pack of Bleuet and a 12-pack of Bud".

You've got an Academy that sells "Bud"? Now if we could just get them to stock dehydrated Yak dung we'd be in business. ;-)

Party On,

Newton

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This stuff goes stale? on 09/19/2012 13:49:54 MDT Print View

"You've got an Academy that sells "Bud"?"

I've never heard of that store in Northern California.

"Now if we could just get them to stock dehydrated Yak dung we'd be in business."

Nahh, you have to get the fresh stuff and dehydrate it yourself.

Seriously, though, sun-dried yak patties are a standard fuel in Nepal. If it is burned in a well-designed stove, you would never smell anything odd.

--B.G.--

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Weight vs alcohol on 09/19/2012 19:01:18 MDT Print View

http://zenstoves.net/StoveChoices.htm

Zen stoves has a great graph of starting weight of a stove vs time. Esbit is meaurably lighter for tips around a week in length. So for a week long trip you can save between 2 and 4 ounces. Which doesnt sound like much but we pay about $15 per ounce or more to lighten our load in other places.

Edited by GregF on 09/19/2012 19:06:35 MDT.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
esbit on 09/19/2012 19:26:14 MDT Print View

One big advantage of esbit is you can mail it , you cant mail alcohol or cannisters. Important for people doing food/fuel drops or resupply on long hikes.

My alcohol setup uses as little alcohol, as would esbit by wt. Max savings is the wt of a fuel bottle, which for a short hike would be 0.6 oz .

Small price to pay for not dealing with a sticky yucky pot. Much easier to light too. Dont need to fiddle with small crusty residues and save for later.

You can make all kind of comparisons that mean nothing. Efficiency all depends on wind screen and stove/pot/windscreen setup. It is easy (and common) when comparing to be more optimized for one fuel, or stove, but not another being evaluated.

Jon Fong
(jonfong57)

Locale: www.flatcatgear.com
Esbit verse alcohol weight on 09/19/2012 20:47:13 MDT Print View

A good Esbit cooking system will boil 3 cups of water using a 14 gram block of Esbit. An outstanding System will boil 4 cups of water (very rare). A good alcohol system will boil 2 cups of water using 15 ml.

(15 ml)*(.78 s.g.) = 11.7 grams of alcohol to boil 2 cups

11.7 grams (3 cups/ 2cups) = 17.55 grams of alcohol to boil 3 cups of water

14 grams of Esbit / 17.55 grams of alcohol = 0.7977 Therefore Esbit wins

I hope this makes sense. My 2 cents - Jon

Steve C
(smit)

Locale: sierra nevada
solid fuel techs on 09/19/2012 20:52:48 MDT Print View

You can mail canisters, I have done it (legally). The box must be labeled so that it is ground only transport. Don't know about alcohol, I haven't had to send any yet! Sorry for the thread drift, wanted to get the record straight.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: mailing fuels on 09/19/2012 23:06:38 MDT Print View

You can mail alcohol also...


http://www.e-nrg.com/shipping-faq/

Hazardous flammable materials (HAZMAT) require special handling, so please remember that your delivery will take just a little longer than normal deliveries.

In accordance with regulations, all deliveries must be via ground only (air transport is not permitted).

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques, "someone tell me why I should make the switch." on 09/23/2012 16:23:44 MDT Print View

@ Bob and

@ Jon and

Thanks to Brian Green

I've found a reason for me personally to make the switch and scratched my MYOG itch at the same time.

MYOG Esbit Stove

Thanks to the generosity of Brian Green posting a link to a pdf of a template for this stove on his backpacking blog I had an easy job of constructing this stove.

MYOG Esbit Stove on scale at a scant 2 grams

I used common aluminum flashing for the construction of this trial run. Bob may have been right about my scale needing to show milligrams because it couldn't make up its mind whether to show 1 or 2 grams on the display. I erred on the side of caution and snapped the picture while it was showing 2 grams. ;-)

I figure it this way. If the number of boils that I can achieve per ounce of fuel is about equal I will have saved weight by reducing my "stove" weight by 9 grams as compared to my Mini Fancee Feest clone.

Take as a given for a second that the windscreen used with my alcohol stove can be used with the MYOG Esbit Stove and keeps that weight as "even".

My next challenge is to construct a pot stand that is less than or equal to 9 grams and keeps the cook pot the correct height above the stove.

Can anyone clue me in on what the distance from the burning Esbit/Bleuet tablet should be using this kind of stove?

Party On,

Newton

Edited to repair broken link and to add this hint. When printing out the pdf template un-check the box that says fit to page or your template will be too small.

Newton

Edited by Newton on 09/23/2012 16:32:20 MDT.

Andrew Weldon
(hypnolobster)
Re: Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques, "someone tell me why I should make the switch." on 09/23/2012 16:42:11 MDT Print View

Wow, that's some exceptionally clean folding. Did you do it in the steps Brian Green wrote, or did you find a better way?

I've made 3 now (backups), and while it's a piece of cake, it's never really gorgeous like that.

esbit1

esbit2
Love the tray though. I'm getting 8-9m boils consistently and up to 15m usable burn, 18ish minutes total.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Re: Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques, "someone tell me why I should make the switch." on 09/23/2012 16:52:05 MDT Print View

Andrew,

Thanks.

Finding the proper width straightedges and some rather strong and long thumbnails helped to produce the bends. The creases got sharpened up with common pliers. The edges got cleaned up with a "fine" file.

How high do you keep your cook pot above your stove's top and the burning fuel tab?

Thanks in advance.

Party On,

Newton

Edited to add some new found information.

After viewing this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERtwfJPNGhY&feature=youtu.be

...where Hiram is testing out the Flat Cat Gear Epicurean stove using Esbit tabs I gathered this info on the height. The Epicurean base is a flat cup style burner that sits directly on the "surface" supporting the stove. Hiram states that the pot stand should place the cook pot 1.8" above the same surface supporting the stove. This measurement is mentioned at 1 minute and 14 seconds into the video.

The portion of this tray style stove that are best described as the legs add another .375" of height to this equation. So if I'm doing my math correctly my pot support needs to support the cook pot 2.175" above the same surface that supports the stove. For those of us who are still into fractions that is just a little less than 2 3/16".

Now I need to fabricate a combination windscreen and pot support for my 1 cup generic cook pot that I purchased from Zelph's. The goal is to have it weigh less than 18 grams. My current windscreen weighs 9 grams and this tray type stove weighs 9 grams less than my alcohol stove, hence the figure of less than 18 grams.

Wish me luck. ;-)

Newton

Edited by Newton on 09/23/2012 20:04:01 MDT.

Brian Green
(bfgreen) - F

Locale: Charlotte, NC
My little Esbit stove template on 09/23/2012 20:24:36 MDT Print View

Can I first say that I'm blown away to see others making my little Esbit tray stoves and using them. I created it as part of a journey that I was on to "rediscover" the beauty of solid fuel - a.k.a no other Esbit stoves were working for me. I gave Jon Fong permission to post my template on his site but didn't know that people were actually making them.

I'll check the exact height that I have my pot at above the stove when I use it, typically that's in combination with my Flat Cat Snow Leopard system so Jon could probably provide the exact heights off the top of his head - I'll need to measure. I've made these using titanium foil, aluminum flashing, and old Bud Light bottles and all have functioned well for me.

if you have suggestions for improvements feel free to let me know!

Edited by bfgreen on 09/23/2012 20:29:21 MDT.

Kent C.
(kent) - M

Locale: High Sierra
Esbit distance-to-pot performance on 09/23/2012 23:54:46 MDT Print View

Newton,

I found this graph at the following site:

http://thru-hiker.com/articles/esbit_stove_height.php


Esbit distance-to-pot performance graph



edit for spelling

Edited by kent on 09/24/2012 20:55:31 MDT.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Esbit distance-to-pot performance on 09/24/2012 04:32:28 MDT Print View

@ Brian,

"Can I first say that I'm blown away to see others making my little Esbit tray stoves and using them. I created it as part of a journey that I was on to "rediscover" the beauty of solid fuel - a.k.a no other Esbit stoves were working for me".

Until this part of my "journey" I had never used a solid fuel stove fueled by Esbit or Bleuet fuel tablets. Thanks for blazing the trail with your sharing of the template.



@ Kent,

Thank you so much for that graphic table of cook pot heights. I seems that I was close in my "guesstimation" of the distance by looking at the third green bar in the graph. The second green bar seems pretty close to the distance Hiram quoted. It also seems just a touch quicker by about 27 seconds. Naturally the first bar in the graph is the quickest boil time.

Now I have another question. Hiram did a video using a Flat Cat Gear Epicurean Classic Stove in simmer mode. He never achieved a boil but there was no soot on the pot after the burn!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0AKSDzOMrs&feature=youtu.be

Now I'm wondering about how much air to allow in to the stove and a combination which of the three first heights together will give the cleanest and most efficient burn.

A clean cook pot is a happy cook pot and hiker! L O L

Party On,

Newton

Andrew Weldon
(hypnolobster)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques, "someone tell me why I should make the switch." on 09/24/2012 06:27:14 MDT Print View

I'm right around 1.25" from the top of a new esbit tab to the bottom of my pot.

I've noticed that if you clean off a pot, my first 2-3 burns actually have virtually zero soot/goop on the pot, but it accumulates after a while.


Here's a video of my system boiling 2c of water
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYDgTV8q5Cw

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: 1.25" from the top of a new esbit tab to the bottom of my pot. on 09/24/2012 10:50:16 MDT Print View

Andrew,

Thanks a lot for that info. ;-)

Party On,

Newton

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Windscreen and Pot Support combination on 09/25/2012 10:53:06 MDT Print View

"Now I need to fabricate a combination windscreen and pot support for my 1 cup generic cook pot that I purchased from Zelph's. The goal is to have it weigh less than 18 grams. My current windscreen weighs 9 grams and this tray type stove weighs 9 grams less than my alcohol stove, hence the figure of less than 18 grams".

My first attempt at combining the pot support and windscreen on my 1 cup cook pot looked great but failed miserably. There weren't enough holes in either the top or the bottom and the Bleuet solid fuel tab extinguished itself.

I used a similar design like the one in the picture below.

Combo 1

No my cook pot isn't a kettle. I'm having computer problems and having to use whatever illustrations I can gather up. LOL

I had 1/4" draft holes 1 inch apart on the bottom and 1/4" exhaust holes every 1/2" on the top. The diameter of the combo is 2 7/8". the total weight of the combo unit was 8 grams in the original configuration. I'm sure that it weighs less with all of the extra holes. See below.

After the initial flame out I added an additional 1/4" hole in-between the draft holes and a second row of staggered 1/4" exhaust holes below the existing holes. The next test run was a success. The combo windscreen / pot stand works and breathes well. I didn't time the boil as I was looking for functionality first.

I used my Esbit/Bleuet tray type stove over a reflective surface inside of the combo stand / screen. The tablet to cook pot air gap was 1 1/4". I used a can with 1 cup of water for testing. There was some sooting, probably due to the flameout failure more than the type of fuel.

I'm considering reconstructing my combo unit out of Titanium because of the high heat and small diameter. I am a little concerned that it may start to fail because of the high heat so close to the aluminum with so many 1/4" holes.

Party On,

Newton

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
Question on 09/27/2012 10:35:33 MDT Print View

So should the base where the esbit rests, to the bottom of the cook pot measure 1.25 inches?

Alpo Kuusisto
(akuusist) - F - M
re: solid fuel techniques on 09/27/2012 13:20:56 MDT Print View

How about fire dragon fuel?

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Question on 09/27/2012 13:24:02 MDT Print View

Michael,

I see your point.

I took my cue from Andrew's post. "I'm right around 1.25" from the top of a new esbit tab to the bottom of my pot".

Looking at the graphic table that Kent posted the measurements are equal but the difference is that in the table the height of the cook pot is measured from the Height Above Esbit Platform.

It seems to be an error on my part thinking that the two quoted distances were in total agreement from starting to ending points. But looking back at the table the only real difference would be 6 seconds of elapsed time to boil.

I'm going to stick with the measurement from the top of the fresh tablet because of what Andrew said later in his same post on the measurement.

"I've noticed that if you clean off a pot, my first 2-3 burns actually have virtually zero soot/goop on the pot, but it accumulates after a while".

Party On,

Newton

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: How about fire dragon fuel? on 09/27/2012 13:33:23 MDT Print View

If it lives up to its press and becomes available locally it would be worth a try.

I wonder how competitively priced it would be with Esbit and Bleuet.

I googled it and from what I gather it is still being developed for production, sale and patent.

Party On,

Newton

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
Esbit on 09/27/2012 13:42:40 MDT Print View

Thanks for all that information. I will keep in mind that the distance from the top of a fresh esbit needs to be 1.25 inches.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Windscreen and Pot Support combination on 09/28/2012 19:45:10 MDT Print View

OK so now the formally defunct power supply in my "hot rod" PC has been replaced and I am once again back up to speed on my home PC. ;-)

Here are some pictures and info to go along with this solid fuel stove experiment of mine.

This is how my 1 cup generic cook pot sits atop my combination windscreen and cook pot support.

Combo windscreen and pot support + cookpot

There are 35 1/4" holes in the top of now 7 gram "combo" and a 36th hole where the eyelet permanently joins the top end together.

The Combo Windscreen + Pot Stand

On the bottom there are 17 1/4" holes and an eighteenth where the other eyelet joins the bottom ends together. You may notice the patina on the "combo" that resembles tarnished copper. This is a color change that takes place in the protective coating that is applied by the flashing manufacturer.

Down inside of the combo is my MYOG clone of Brian Greens Esbit tray stove.

Stove inside of "combo" screen + stand

Once the water was boiling I could remove the cook pot and BLOW OUT the flame. The caps are there to emphasize that it takes some force to blow out a burning tablet.

Tray stove with partially burned Bleuet fuel tablet

Here is the reflective ring that I plan to use in place under the combo with the stove inside and the cook pot on top.

Reflective ring under the combo

This is the same ring that I use with my mini fancee feest clone.

When I was doing my test burns I simulated windy conditions using a 20" box fan on all 3 different speeds. The only real difference that I noticed was that at the highest speed the combo actually began to act and look like a stove with flames licking out of the top exhaust holes.

Question:

Can any of you suggest a way to carry the "saved" leftover tablet? Zip lock? Vinyl pill caddy?

Boil times will be coming later with some pictures of the stove and combo unit in use.

Party On,

Newton

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Windscreen and Pot Support combination on 09/28/2012 20:14:26 MDT Print View

"Can any of you suggest a way to carry the "saved" leftover tablet?"

Put it back into the original plastic bubble and foil packaging. It is for that reason why I carefully slit open the packaging in the first place.

Sometimes I have a half-used tablet when I finish dinner, and it gets saved this way for breakfast use. I seldom carry a half-used tablet to the next camp, but I could.

--B.G.--

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Tablet Leftovers on 09/29/2012 05:05:15 MDT Print View

Thanks Bob,

Do you just lay the foil packaging back over the tablets blister pack?

After reading your post I was thinking that a dedicated, small piece of aluminum foil folded over the edges might be beneficial to keep any "crumbs" from the tablet contained.

I was thinking along these same lines for the stove itself and maybe a tyvek or even cuben round bottom stuff sack for my cook pot if soot rears its ugly head.

I'll have to do some careful measuring but if I continue to use the "tray" stove two of the empty blister packs and one good rubber band might just hold the stove and any leftover fuel tablet.

I'm attempting to answer the challenge of getting my fuel, stove, lighter, pot stand and reflector to all nest together in my cook pot with the lid "snapped" into place.

BTW have you ever seen the 5.25 oz (net weight) size plastic jar of Zatarain's Prepared Horseradish. It's about 2 1/4" wide and 3 1/8" tall. It is shaped like a miniature mayonnaise jar. I know you've been collecting small jars and bottles for stove fuel. This one may hold about 6 or more fluid ounces of alcohol but that's only a "guesstimate" by eye. I'll have to finish the horseradish first to do the measuring. ;-)

But this shouldn't take to long for a "Louisiana Man".

Party On,

Newton

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Tablet Leftovers on 09/29/2012 10:17:24 MDT Print View

"Do you just lay the foil packaging back over the tablets blister pack?"

Yes.

Just about every bag and package that I use around Esbit is disposable, because the residue gets over everything.

I would be afraid that the horseradish might dissolve the plastic jar and eat a hole in the titanium cook pot.

--B.G.--

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Tablet Leftovers on 10/02/2012 20:46:07 MDT Print View

Here is a different take or spin if you will on a solid fueled stove that can contain a partially used fuel tab.

A Bleuet solid fuel tablet will drop into a ...

Screw Top Tin

...1 oz size screw top tin.

The 1 oz size screw top tin weighs on my scale 16 grams including the screw top. The bottom portion measures 9/16" internal depth x 1 13/16" in diameter. The screw top lid measures 2 3/16" in diameter and 21/32" (just over 5/8") overall height.

OK so it weighs 14 grams more than my Esbit tray type clone stove, is made of tin not aluminum or titanium and it isn't MYOG. It is a secure way that allows a hiker to carry a partially burned tablet.

Because it will sit lower my windscreen needs to be a full 1/4" shorter to get the same pot to fuel tablet distance of 1 1/4". That may shave a couple of grams from the combo screen /stand. ;-?

The lid itself measures 5/16" and could be used to raise the "stove" up close to the proper height. The tin doesn't really nest well on top of the lid so stability is an issue if I choose to go that route.

As before I would use a reflective surface under the stove.

I sourced my tin from ...

http://bepreparedtosurvive.com/Misc.Conatiners.htm

...for $2.80 plus shipping for a set of three. Scroll down on their web page about a fourth of the way to view them. The 1 oz by itself costs a dollar.

If you trim the corners of the sealed package just right you can screw the lid on as the top edge of the bottom of the tin supports the packaging and have a sealed tab inside ready to unwrap and cook or boil. Don't trim the corners back far enough to get the tablet to drop inside as this will break the factory seal.

I was just thinking outside the box again. This could be a dual fuel stove with the addition of a piece of carbon felt and some alcohol fuel.

Experimenting with stoves and fuels can be dangerous. Proceed at your own risk. Please be careful. I can only report my results but as always YMMV. Remember there are no guarantees!

Party On,

Newton

Andrew Weldon
(hypnolobster)
Re: Re: Windscreen and Pot Support combination on 10/03/2012 17:11:48 MDT Print View

Wow, I love that design. I've got a lot of rivets and a lot of titanium.

Do you think a 550ml pot would play nice on top of a similar design out of titanium? I think I'm going to give it a shot with some flashing first just to confirm how many holes I'll need. It'll be a little larger in diameter, and I imagine the same number of holes should still supply the same amount of air.

I love the combo of windscreen and pot stand, though. Really elegant and just as stable as a hardware cloth stand.



If I can keep it around 7-10 grams with a titanium version, I'll be losing some weight from my kit and taking two items and turning it into one. I love simplicity!


edit: and as an aside, I keep my half-burnt esbit tabs in a little tiny tyvek envelope. I don't know where I got it from, but it's just a 2x~3" bonded tyvek envelope with no closure on top. I just drop the tablet in, fold over the long top and it stuffs into my cook kit inside the plastic bag that contains my stove and pot stand. Works great!

Edited by hypnolobster on 10/03/2012 17:15:09 MDT.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
windscreen on 10/03/2012 17:29:01 MDT Print View

put the windscreen around the pot, leave 1/4" gap
put 15 1/4" holes around the bottom as low to ground as can make, evenly spaced.
put small holes at correct ht and slide tent stakes thru for pot support

you will have better wind protection
you will have better heat input area, and waste less heat

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Re: Re: Windscreen and Pot Support combination on 10/03/2012 17:46:12 MDT Print View

Andrew,

Glad you like it. ;-)

What seemed to work for me was a 2 : 1 ratio of holes 1/4" in diameter. As pictured the double row of holes is at the top and the single row at the bottom.

The bottom row of holes are "breathers" to allow combustion air in to the stove. The top two rows are "exhaust" holes. I tried twice as many holes (1 every half inch) in a single row on top and half as many holes (1 every inch) in a single row on the bottom. That version did not breath well at all and the tablet smothered and flamed out.

I had seen this before on one of my alcohol stoves. Lacking patience LOL and having plenty of flashing and eyelets I decided to double the number of top holes and do likewise to the bottom.

+1 for trying it out of flashing first. I see no reason why 550ml or 2.33 cup cook pot wouldn't "play nice" on a similarly designed Titanium combination stand and windscreen. The Ti handles more heat and is inherently stronger.

Thanks for the suggestion regarding the half-burnt fuel tablets. This is still a work in progress as you can see from the post regarding the screw top tin "stove" idea.

BTW the original idea for this combo winscreen / pot stand design came from...

http://zenstoves.net/PotStands-WindscreenStands.htm

...about 1/2 way down their web page. Look for the figure that looks like the one pictured below.

Narrow Stand 2

Party On,

Newton

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: windscreen on 10/03/2012 18:18:27 MDT Print View

M B,

Thank you for your input, I do appreciate it.

"put small holes at correct ht and slide tent stakes thru for pot support"

I am not a fan of using my tent stakes for this purpose for a couple of reasons.

1.) I don't want to carry extra tent stakes dedicated to my cook kit.

2.) I don't want to wait to finish setting up my shelter until after cooking.

"you will have better wind protection
you will have better heat input area, and waste less heat"


In my tests in my garage I had a 20" box fan on high speed blowing directly at my combo screen and stand. The flame did not suffer. My 1 cup solo cook pot is approximately 3 and 1/4" in diameter. My screen / stand is 2 7/8" in diameter. In the past I saw a lot of wasted heat go up the sides of my cook pot. With this design pretty much all of the heat from the Bleuet tablet is directed right at the bottom of my cook pot.

This is an ongoing experiment in minimalism, simplicity and efficiency.

Minimalism - Do more with less

Simplicity - Less pieces and parts

Efficiency - Short boil times with minimal use of fuel.

I am reminded of Gossamer Gear's warning about their SUL pack. It said in essence, if you think that this pack might not be for you than it isn't.

If you are happy with your current setup and it does exactly what you need it to do than I am happy for you.

I am simply exploring a different approach towards the same end.

Again I appreciate your input and experience. Thank you for offering it here on this thread.

Party On,

Newton

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
stakes on 10/03/2012 19:13:36 MDT Print View

Hey I agree with you.
You are far from the first to go down the road.

Enjoy.

Greg Pehrson
(GregPehrson) - MLife

Locale: playa del caballo blanco
Re: Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 10/03/2012 20:56:02 MDT Print View

Sorry it took so long to respond to your questions, Newton. You asked,
"Do you have to re-apply the soap between "burns" or is it just a one time application per trip? How long does it last? Did you size the tyvek stuff sack so that it has a wide opening but closes tightly to avoid getting the soot on the higher edges of the cook pot and stuff sack?"

I don't reapply it after cooking. But I'm not out on extended trips either these days.
As to the tyvek envelope, I kept the mailer at its full size and just sewed a drawcord hem into the top (where the opening normally is). This opens up plenty wide to drop my pot into without making a mess on the outside, but there is some wasted space as it's not a snug fit. Tyvek mailers are recyclable too, if it gets too gross after a bunch of trips.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: questions on 10/04/2012 04:19:02 MDT Print View

Greg,

Thank you very much for the detailed answers.

We all get very busy and or preoccupied sometimes. That's why we enjoy hiking in the wilderness so much. We get to fill up our eyes with the beauty of nature and rid ourselves of the "junk" that accumulates in our heads over time. It also gives us a reason and aids in keeping us physically fit.

It's a Win-Win all the way around. ;-)

At my age sometimes I just forget! ;-? L O L

Thanks again.

Party On,

Newton

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: Solid Fuel Stove Techniques on 10/24/2012 20:53:28 MDT Print View

OK so there is this thread on the Philosophy & Technique Forum right now that asks the question "Where do you compromise"? What the question is getting at is, where do you carry more weight for the sake of comfort, function or luxury?

In this regard I have compromised on my solid fuel stove weight to achieve a set goal of a desired set of function parameters.

1.) Be able to burn a solid fuel tablet a.k.a. Esbit, Bleuet or Coghlan's.

2.) Be able to store a partially burned fuel tablet securely.

3.) Be ultralight and efficient.

Here is the result.

My stove weighs 16 grams total including the bottom "burner" and the screw on top for used tablet storage.

Stove in storage mode

So my stove gained a total of 14 grams. I comfort myself with fact that only the bottom 8 gram half is the burner and the 8 gram top is just there for storage of the partially used fuel tablet. ;-)

I did save some weight on this project. I had to construct a new "combo" pot stand and windscreen due to the lower height of the stove.

New lighter "combo"

The new "combo" weighs 6 grams so I saved 1 whole gram. LOL

I'll be using the stove and combo with the same 2 gram reflective surface ring from my Fancee Feest Clone Stove.

Combo, stove and reflective ring

Here is a picture looking down at the stove loaded with a "wrapped" Bleuet tablet sitting inside of the "combo" with the reflective ring underneath.

View from above stove

I gained 14 grams on the stove and saved 1 gram on the "combo" for a total weight gain of 13 grams. Add in the 2 gram reflective ring, 16 gram 1 cup cook pot, 5 gram aluminum lid, 2 gram plastic ring and an 11 gram mini-Bic lighter which brings my solid fuel cook kit grand total up to 58 grams or 2.05 ounces.

Naturally I won't be using a dose cup or a fuel bottle with this setup. But I will have to carry the solid fuel tablets. Each wrapped tablet weighs 15 grams. If I can get two 1 cup boils out of every tablet with this system I'll only have to carry 75 grams or 5 tablets to equal what I was getting out of my "mini fancee feest clone and fuel bottle of 4 ounces of alcohol. That bottle of alcohol when full weighed 106 grams and my alcohol stove weighed 12 grams. So there is some weight savings to be had by going the solid fuel tablet route. That weight savings was already there with my clone of Brian Green's tray stove and original "combo" stand and screen.

I still have to do test burns for boil times and overall performance. There will be some long term observations to be made regarding the stoves material since it is a round storage "tin". Longevity of the stove is a concern of mine but they are very inexpensive to replace.

Here is the good news. I get to do these tests on a 24 hour overnight in the Kisatchie Wilderness this weekend. WooHoo!

Party On,

Newton

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
MYOG Solid Fuel Stove Test on 10/25/2012 17:28:28 MDT Print View

I did a test run on my 2" screw top tin "esbit" type stove with its "combo" stand/windscreen on my patio this evening.

Here are the particulars.

Ambient temperature was 81* F.
Water temperature @ 50* F. (ice cold water from the refrigerator)
7 mph ENE wind (no real effect on patio due to house shielding the stove)

The fuel tablet was lit with a match and allowed to achieve a completely flaming tablet.
The "combo" was then placed around the stove and the "cook pot" with 1 cup of the cold water was placed on top of the "combo".
The timer was then started.

Performance data:

A boil with visible steam venting from under the cook pot lid was achieved at 14 minutes and 36 seconds.

The fuel tablet continued to burn until complete flame out at 34 minutes and 24 seconds.

Note:

I believe two 1 cup boils are possible due to the fact that the boil time doubled equals 29 minutes and 12 seconds. The tablet burned for 5 minutes and 12 seconds more than that amount of time.

The "cupped" shape of the stove tin may be part of the reason for the slower boil time than the tray type stove.

Observations:

This stove, stand and windscreen setup seemed to perform like a simmering stove.

I blew through the "combo" and it seemed to like the added combustion air as the flame seemed to grow and become more vigorous as long as I continued to blow into the "combo" screen/stand.

After flame out there was quite a bit of residual fuel tablet left in the bottom of the tin.

Crud!

The bottom of the "cook pot" was well coated with soot.

Sacrificial "cook pot" can

This is to be expected with solid fuel tablet stoves but it wasn't this bad when I test burned the tray type stove.


R & D:

I believe I can speed up (lower) the boil time by adding more punch holes in the "combo".

Comment:

My darling wife suggested that I try out this new stove at home before going out to the Kisatchie Wilderness without a backup stove. I'm so glad I listened to her and didn't wait until I was on the trail to "test" this stove. ;-)

Party On,

Newton

Edited by Newton on 10/25/2012 20:25:52 MDT.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
R & D on a Solid Fuel Stove Fails! on 10/25/2012 19:51:29 MDT Print View

"The best laid schemes o' mice an' men Gang aft a-gley"

Robert Burns

Yes I added more holes and breath-ability to my now 5 gram "combo".

Wanna be hardware cloth ;-)

It looked really cool while burning.

Second burn test

The steam venting was proof of a good boil.

Steam!

OK kids that is the end of the good news. This is proof positive that Newton will post and own up to his MYOG failures. LOL

Despite how good everything looks the results of the second burn test were WORSE!

The ambient conditions and temperatures were all pretty much the same. Things were done in the same manner and order.

Results:

Boil time evidenced by venting steam was at 17 minutes. FWIW at 21 minutes the lid started popping up and down to relieve excess pressure because there was no vent hole in the lid. It was entertaining while I sat out on the patio dodging mosquitoes waiting for the stove to flame out. I'm dedicated if not smart. ;-)

Flame out occurred at 33 minutes and 20 seconds.

Conclusion:

The 2" round screw top tin solid fuel stove/used tablet storage container is a FAILURE!

The fuel tablet needs to be more exposed as it was in the tray type stove or simply laid on a piece of foil inside of the "combo".

Comments:

I can try these ideas later on. I need to get out my alcohol stove "backup" and finish packing for Kisatchie.

I'm not giving up or giving in on solid fuel stoves I'm just going back to something I can count on so that my outing this weekend doesn't cause me to cuss! ;-)

Party On,

Newton