Forum Index » GEAR » 20 degree wet weather clothing, again?


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Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: hmmm on 09/12/2012 14:19:52 MDT Print View

Inconclusive? Indeed. But it does not confirm any real world benefits of synthetic insulation. Really. Just don't swim with your down jacket on and you should be okay...enjoying higher loft, more warmth, less weight, and a longer lasting product. I trek every year on Vancouver Island and it is very wet there. I always take down.

Of course, if waterproof down does what it claims, any synthetic will be completely, and utterly obsolete.

Hopefully they can be recycled.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: hmmm on 09/12/2012 14:25:17 MDT Print View

anybody can screw up as you found out last year ;)

as to waterproof down .. one does have to remember that down aint getting any warmer, eventually synthetics will catch up ... i dont know about you but i have a few holes through the shell of my synth right now, if it was down id be a mess of feathers

course i am the destroyer of gnarly gear ... well actually an ember or two put the holes there =(

would you care to measure the drying times of a 20F rated down bag vs a synth one ... as the author noted, more down that is less exposed may tell a different story ...

i am still willing to test my heavier down and synth jackets ... they need a good wash anyways

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/12/2012 14:28:27 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: hmmm on 09/12/2012 14:46:48 MDT Print View

"anybody can screw up as you found out last year ;)"

Once again, it was due to my bivy. The condensation was unbearable. Once I removed the bivy, the condensation on the bag began to evaporate. Anyhoo....

Serious though, why invest in coming up with synthetic unobtanium instead of just using the dry down that is available now with apparently (and subject to much scrutiny), none of the downsides to synthetic. There are many downsides to synthetic insulation and only one, arguable, benefit. Otherwise down is superior in every way.

Nick Brown
(ojsglove)

Locale: Highland Park
Testing and comparisons on 09/12/2012 14:47:56 MDT Print View

That would be great if you guys did a wash and dry test in humid conditions. I think everyone would benefit from beta like that.

If I go synthetic out of THESE options what would you choose?

100gm Primaloft 1 throughout, NO hood

or

133gm Primaloft Eco in body, 60gm PL Eco sleeves and hood

This would be with a MB EXLight under.

Seems to me the torso would be a wash and the PL1 throughout would be warmer in the sleeves. The lack of hood could be mitigated by my a hat and all the hoods on my hoody, windshirt and rain coat. Sounds as though a PL1 vest wouldn't cut it with only a MB Exl accompanying it.

Thanks!

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Testing and comparisons on 09/12/2012 14:55:32 MDT Print View

I find the benefits of a hood outweight the additional weight. The hood prevents heat loss around the neck. At least this has been my experience.

One experiences the greatest effect of heat loss through the torso so I would go with the jacket that has more insulation around the torso and less in the arms.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: hmmm on 09/12/2012 14:56:03 MDT Print View

seriously ... why worry about what other people are using ... didnt skurka use a synth quilt, and mr jordan as well ...

i really dont get why people on BPL are all crazed about what other people are using ...

tons of very good people use synth especially in the alpine ...

but then the intrawebs aint HYOH anyways ;)

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Testing and comparisons on 09/12/2012 14:57:14 MDT Print View

hood ... hands down ... you should have a hood for yr primary puffy at 20F

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hmmm on 09/12/2012 15:02:03 MDT Print View

My point has always been that using your head is more important than the gear. Maybe we can fully agree with this. I have used the BMW Cocoon very successfully in the past with my ID PLQ pants and I am NOT Ryan Jordan.

"didnt skurka use a synth quilt, and mr jordan as well"

No to the first. Yes to the second but he is on extended vacation so don't expect a reply....; ) (I will ignore the fact that he 'used' what he sold through these forums so take that with a grain of salt)

Lars Laird Iversen
(larslaird) - M
Paramo? on 09/12/2012 15:10:02 MDT Print View

Sorry if this is a noob contribution, but isn't this just the kind of conditions where Paramo stuff has something to offer? Cold enough for the heavy material to usefully replace a midlayer, you get damp, but not wet due to the capilliary action, and it breathes beautifully...

Edited by larslaird on 09/12/2012 15:10:41 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hmmm on 09/12/2012 15:24:06 MDT Print View

Skurka used a mld spirit quilt on his great alaska trek ... Ill post it up when im not on my iphone at the crag ;)

But ill just say that people can use whudda evah they want ... Its not like what people use, many who do crazier things than me, affect me any which way

But then i must always be rightand argue to the death on the intrawebs

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
re: loft and warmth on 09/12/2012 15:38:44 MDT Print View

There are a couple of issues with Wilson's article, the most important of which is that we now know that loft is not directly coordinated with warmth (in either down or synthetics).

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: re: loft and warmth on 09/12/2012 15:39:46 MDT Print View

David, is that from the research that Nisely did?

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
re: re: loft on 09/12/2012 15:48:49 MDT Print View

Nisley's stuff from a few years ago, Jerry's recent article, and the data from Reitveld's down jacket SOTMR all suggest that with down loft does not perfectly correlate with warmth. The details seem to be very much up for grabs.

As for synthetics, the equivalent weights of Climashield and Primaloft have rather different lofts, but fairly comparable insulative values (setting aside the issue of degradation over time, and how both respond).

I am enjoying this conversation.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: hi-loft fleece on 09/12/2012 17:06:40 MDT Print View

I remember reading that article

They're missing something important - it takes heat to evaporate the water

This reduces the temperature difference across the insulation - equivalent to lowering the R value - even if the loft is unaffected

Until you measure temperatures, you have an incomplete story

We're back to there's no good data on this, just people's experiences, which is good, but not very scientific

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: hmmm on 09/12/2012 17:18:24 MDT Print View

"didnt skurka use a synth quilt, and mr jordan as well"

No to the first. Yes to the second


Ahem, from Skurka's gearlists:

* Alaska-Yulon trek: a down bag for winter (Golite Adrenaline) but a MLD Spirit quilt for spring/summer/fall (Climashield Apex)
* Alaska Four Range trek: BPL UL180 (synthetic)
* Hayduke Trail & Grand Canyon: Golite Ultra-20 quilt (down)
* Iceland Traverse: BPL UL180 quilt
* SHR: BPL UL180 quilt (but commented that down would be better for that locale)
* UL in Nation's Icebox: Golite Feather 20 bag (down??)

A mixture of insulations but certainly not avoiding synthetics

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: hi-loft fleece on 09/12/2012 21:32:33 MDT Print View

We're back to there's no good data on this, just people's experiences, which is good, but not very scientific


i dont think there will ever be very good data ... it all depends ... for example there was a trip report where Mr Linn wrote an article for BPL where his down got saturated on the last part of the PCT due to there basically being no sun to dry out his down bag ... not life threatening, but probably inconvenient ...

my opinion is that it all depends on where you are, what you are doing and how certain you are of things not going wrong or you screewing up ...

i own and use synth and down jackets, so whatever works best for me ... or both sometimes ;)