Forum Index » GEAR » Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008?


Display Avatars Sort By:
Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008? on 08/27/2012 16:38:24 MDT Print View

http://www.suluk46.com/documents/Suluk%2046%20-%20A1%20-%20Testing%20Cuben%20Tieouts.pdf




This shows failure points (and shows testing methods) Y'all know Steve

Erik Hagen
(EWH100) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area
CF Testing on 08/27/2012 16:47:59 MDT Print View

Barry, thanks that's what I was referencing when I made my comments.

Question for David Olsen, since you manufacture shelters with both silnylon and cuben fiber what is your experience? Thx.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: questions on 08/27/2012 16:51:20 MDT Print View

"I think the earlier failures were due to stitching the fabric together. The tiny holes created would stretch and eventually fail under load"

"Any examples of this?"

For sure. My First generation Refuge-X tore very neatly around the stitching lines attaching the side guyouts. I would say that construction is crucial to good reliability in cuben design, at least designs such as shelters where the seams can be prone to a lot of stress.

Kevin Burton
(burtonator) - F

Locale: norcal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008? on 08/27/2012 17:04:31 MDT Print View

> I would like some back up on the statements. As would David O.

> Otherwise, it is hard for me to accept your statements unless they are provided in context.

I think there's a big [citation needed] for all those statements.

Otherwise they're just rumor and that doesn't help anyone.

Who were these people?

Kevin Burton
(burtonator) - F

Locale: norcal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008? on 08/27/2012 17:06:18 MDT Print View

> So you don't have any sources? Just making stuff up.

@JohnAbela you have yet to provide any source or citation to back up some very important statements.

People could be basing their lives off your statements.

Hypothermia isn't a joke.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008? on 08/27/2012 17:12:59 MDT Print View

Kevin stated:
If you're in a bad storm and your tarp fails it could mean your death (hypothermia)
...
Hypothermia isn't a joke.


So you really want to sit here and attribute a hiker getting hypothermia to cuben fiber?

I do not even know how to respond to such an statement.

Thermoregulation is not based on one singular aspect of your gear. ref

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Re: questions on 08/27/2012 17:13:04 MDT Print View

"My First generation Refuge-X tore very neatly around the stitching lines attaching the side guyouts. I would say that construction is crucial to good reliability in cuben design, at least designs such as shelters where the seams can be prone to a lot of stress."

Didn't you post some photos of this?

Edited by oware on 08/27/2012 17:18:37 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Check this out on 08/27/2012 17:16:32 MDT Print View

If you look at Ryan Jordan's article "Storm Reistance of Ultralight Shelters Part 1" he has some info.
For example there is a picture of a a cuban tarp that has seams begining to rip the cuben after 12 hours of 15-25 mph winds. Now it may be there are better ways to make a cuben tarp but still I don't consider 15-25 mph that hard. In my opinion any tarp should handle that. I definitely camped in much worse and I'm not a mountaineer. Before I spend an extra $100 or so on a cuben tarp I'd need to know that wasn't going to happen to me.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: questions on 08/27/2012 17:27:25 MDT Print View

David,

Here is a pic from Lynn's Refuge X tear.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=17612&skip_to_post=134609

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 08/27/2012 17:28:58 MDT.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
cuben on 08/27/2012 17:30:59 MDT Print View

Ryan's photo was pretty limited as to showing what was happening to that tie out and tho
the stitching job was pretty basic and the holes stretching, it hadn't failed yet. It
appeared the direction of force was not taken into account when attaching that tie point.

In Suluk's testing, the difference in lbs to failure between the construction methods he tried came to around 20%, and all were over 150 lbs. His reinforcements were very small
and his stitch pattern not optimal on the reinforcement.

I haven't seen any failures of cuben or silnylon shelters due to wind forces personally,
and would be very interested to see any that others have come across.

If silnylon is considered acceptable strength wise, my limited tests show that .51
cuben is equal in strength when stitched.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife
Re: Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008? on 08/27/2012 17:42:19 MDT Print View

Here is an interesting video that got posted to youtube a week ago. It shows a CF shelter (in this instance, a ZPacks Hexamid, made from 0.51 cuben fiber) getting nailed from some rather large size hail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgaFCvF2KM

Bounce forward to around the 4 minute mark to really see it.

I am not implying that SilNylon or SpinnUL or anything else could not handle this - rather the fact that any shelter can take this kind of a beating from hail of this size is pretty sweet!!


From my experience, the quality of manufacturing plays a large part in how well the durability of a shelter is going to be -- and specifically I am talking about the bonding (taping) aspect over the thread lines.

Companies such as MLD have set the bar for how to properly build a CF shelter. Companies such as HMG sort of go above-and-beyond (overbuilding) their CF shelters IMO. Companies such as ZPacks and SMD and LHG (and others) that have started to bond their seams are moving forward with the shelter durability issue.

Without a doubt I would put a HMG Echo (I owned a Echo I and an Echo II) up against any shelter in the UL hiking world when it comes to abuse it could take. Other shelters such as my 0.34 tarp and other 0.34 tarps that have been made by guys such as Steve from Suluk46, well they obviously have some serious weaknesses - but we are the few amongst the already few and are not out there being stupid using them in conditions such as what the video above shows, they are strictly summer-time shelters, I think I pushed mine into shoulder season once and worrying about it was all I thought about the entire hike, so I have never done it again. I would put the 0.74 CF tarps that MLD make up against any equivalent SilNylon tarp that is out there as well. Likewise, since ZPacks has made the move to seam-bonding they have made leaps and bounce in durability - initially they did not thread bond to save weight.

Anyway, yes, there is more than enough hikers around the world using CF to more than prove that CF is a viable shelter/backpack material. More than one business exists today that make nothing but CF gear - and these are businesses that employee a fair number of employees. They would not continue to exist if hikers had discovered CF was a failure.

'Nough said.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008?" on 08/27/2012 17:43:20 MDT Print View

The first wave of CF Trailstars had to be returned to have one of the tie outs strengthened, so I guess there are still some lessons to be learnt about construction.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Who's been in a storms in Cuben shelter? (besides the 'Hail in the Sierra' guy) on 08/27/2012 18:09:47 MDT Print View

Has no one been in a wind storm in a Cuben shelter? Surely the HMG guys tested one in a Colo storm, right?

You people speak up!
;)

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Risk on 08/27/2012 18:22:58 MDT Print View

["If you're in a bad storm and your tarp fails it could mean your death (hypothermia)."

if you will die from the failure of any one piece of gear I woud argue you are taking to big of risk to be using UL components.

So dont break into hyperbole, it distracts from your question.

Edited by GregF on 08/27/2012 18:25:51 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Two factores to consider on 08/27/2012 18:27:20 MDT Print View

I'll agree that shelter Ryan showed might not be the best example, it definitely could have been reinforced more. Also we don't know the weight of the cuban fiber being tested. I wonder if it was not just the wind but the fact that the shelter was in the wind for 12 hours that caused the problem (yes I call it a problem, any shelter that costs that much should be able to handle 25 mph winds).

I'm not a structural engineer but I think we have two factors to consider here.

1. The amount of force. In other words your tarp can handle 45 pounds of force. That means if a big storm comes through and exerts 55 pounds of force on your tarp you'd expect a failure. That is pretty easy to test.

2. The duration of the force. I'm going to suggest that a smaller amount of force over a long period of time may do just as much damage. In other words your tarp might fail at 45 pounds but it might also fail if it was subjected to 30 pounds over a long enough period of time. This is going to be harder to test.

Edited by Cameron on 08/27/2012 18:28:22 MDT.

Kevin Burton
(burtonator) - F

Locale: norcal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008? on 08/27/2012 19:06:38 MDT Print View

If you're in a storm and your tarp fails and that was your main protection from rain and severe weather the chance of hypothermia is very high... I thought this goes without saying.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008? on 08/27/2012 19:12:18 MDT Print View

Providing your shelter hasn't blown to the next county, you could just wrap yourself up with it...
Franco

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
florida tornados on 08/27/2012 19:36:03 MDT Print View

I think OP is from Florida and is worried about that big storm...

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Popcorn on 08/27/2012 19:49:04 MDT Print View

I have utterly nothing to add to this flamefest

Just wanted to say that there are certain items that are quite sensitive, cuben being one of them ;)

Just like macs ...

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuben fiber failure? Any updates since 2008? on 08/27/2012 20:21:18 MDT Print View

>>>If you're in a storm and your tarp fails and that was your main protection from rain and severe weather the chance of hypothermia is very high... I thought this goes without saying.<<<

And you should prepare for this. There is always a storm that can destroy your tent so unless you are going to bring expedition tents you should have a plan for tent failure. My usual thought is burrito style the tarp or move to a more sheltered location.

So either you have a higher tolerance for personal risk or your statement is hyperbole.